Would you let your son wear dresses?

Yes. But I’d sure as hell let him know that he was going to face some shit at school…and if he wanted to get into that, that’s his decision.

God – I wish I were evolved enough to say a definitve yes, but i think it would be hard for me to do so. I would be afraid of humiliation – his or mine.

I wouldn’t let him wear it out for the same reason I wouldn’t let my 5-year old little girl wear a tutu out. . . It’s not appropriate.

I would be okay with him playing around at home.

Yes, I would. I don’t believe in “boy clothes” or “girl clothes”, or “boy toys” and “girl toys”. The only major concern I would have is how badly he would be picked on in school, since people can be extremely cruel. However, with very good parenting, I think you can teach your child to overcome bullying. I would be concerned that the bullying might become physical, but if it came to that, I would expect and demand the school to eradicate it immediately.

I’m not about changing people. I would want my child to be whoever they wanted to be. It doesn’t hurt anyone else, so I don’t see what the problem is.

@Taciturnu Why can’t a 5-year-old girl wear a tutu out? Perhaps have her wear pants underneath it so that she is covered, but still gets to wear her tutu

I just read that article, too.
Yes, I would. Exactly what @DrasticDreamer said.

Probably not. I wouldn’t want all the bullying and ostrosizing that would come with it for him. On the other hand, I don’t think there should be a line between “girl toys” and “boy toys”. My brother played with my dishes and dolls and kitchen set, which I didn’t play with and I played with his little green army men. No one cared about that.

If the kid is strong enough to handle it at school, then I think they should do what they want. My son wanted to wear some things usually associated with girls, and like everyone else, it did give me a pang of concern about what might happen in school.

He changed soon enough. I don’t know if he got teased or if he saw for himself that boys wear this and not that. Now it’s gone the other way. I hear hims saying, “that’s for girls.” Something like that. The kids are in a school that teaches tolerance. Despite that, there are kids who get a lot of teasing for this or that, and usually pull out of the school.

There’s only so far parents or a school can go, short of home schooling. Our society eventually takes care of everything. Our children either stand up to it or they conform or we remove them to a place of safety.

We don’t want our children to be hurt by scorn, but sometimes, it seems to me, it’s best to let them deal with it early on, instead of having to repress it. Then, they’ll change, or they’ll stand up to their peers. If they can do that, then I feel very good about their future prospects.

@Facade Well, I guess it depends on the outing. . .

Think I’m going to get a lot of crap for this answer but I think it’s important to teach societal norms. When a child has reached the age of knowing societal norms and wants to venture outside of them, that would be okay. (A very similar path to the one I followed, actually.) A 5 year old doesn’t realize what society recognizes what is A-okay and what is not. So, at that age, I wouldn’t allow my son to wear dresses.

I would have my child to the doctor for a DNA test to determine if he is really a little girl stuck in a boy’s body. And if not I’d tell him to wise up or he’s going to spend his life getting beaten up.

Sad to me how many people here would basically just lie down. But, I suppose, that’s life.

@Taciturnu But why be so concerned with conforming to society?
@DrasticDreamer A lot of things that’s “life” has saddened me lately as well…

Man, where is Simone when you need her??

I would have a real hard time with it. As much as I support my boys desire and abilities to explore life and everything in it…I think I would draw the line at a pink tutu. Maybe something a little more sensible for the playground like a pants skirt and pumps.

@Cruiser A tutu is impractical, but pumps aren’t? You have clearly never walked in them… ;)

@ Facade As @chyna mentioned, the kid is likely going to be bullied and come home from school without any friends, and the kids are going to tell their parents, no? The parents may not want my child to play with theirs because mine is “weird.” That’s a lesson in life everyone learns at some point. I don’t think it needs to happen to my 5 year old child. There’s no way mother bear can prevent all bullying and make every parent and teacher comfortable with the idea.

I am all for teaching acceptance of everyone. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t see things the same way.

@Taciturnu Fuck the world. Teach your kid that bullies don’t actually win. There’s no value in teaching a child to hide who they are “because other people are mean”. But, that’s just me.

@Taciturnu But isn’t the kid going to learn that it’s not acceptable way more from you preventing them than from others teasing them? If I were that 5 year old, you’d probably seem like the least tolerant.

@DrasticDreamer Bullies do win… But yes, so do the underdogs. I don’t think it’s teaching a child to hide who they are any more than if I told them they need to bring a coat. If I were trying to prevent my teenage boy from crossdressing, I think it’s a different story. For the record, I don’t believe in “boy toys” and “girl toys,” either.

@papayalily That’s exactly it. I’d rather take the fall for it “because I’m the mom” instead of my kid being traumatized. 5 is a great age, but a 5 year old doesn’t have the reasoning power he/she would have in a few more years.

@Taciturnu You think being teased is more traumatic than growing up thinking his mom is intolerant?

I think the main concern would be distraction at school – for him and the other students. Away from school, I would let him do it.

@papayalily If you preach and live by tolerance, I don’t think you can be mistaken for being intolerant. If laying out rules for your kids is being intolerant, I’m pretty sure all of our parents were intolerant, no?

@Taciturnu Well, my mom wouldn’t let me do a lot of things because “other people would judge me”. Almost no other people judged me for those things – she was the one doing the judging. It seriously hurt our communication later down the road – I didn’t feel like I could talk to her without her being overly concerned about “other people”.

What about “tomboys”?

@papayalily I think there’s a balance to be had. My mother was the same way and I didn’t have a dad. I don’t think a 5 year old is able to make their own calls. (Think about it- most 5 year olds are just learning how to tie their shoes.) Each child is a little different, but when they can start making their own decisions, that’s when it should be permitted.

@Facade There isn’t any stigma regarding a girl wearing pants anymore. For all intents and purposes, my answer would be mirrored, though.

I am not 100% sure. It would not bother me that he wants to wear a dress. I would worry about him being teased or ostracized. This type of thing can stick with a kid thoughout school. One dress, one sissy tease by a group of boys, and they never let it go. It would matter where I lived at the time I think. Here in TN I would be very reluctant. If I were in NY maybe not as much.

I think, but I am not sure, that I would tell him different places require different clothing. I believe this anyway. I generally believe in conforming. I would cover myself appropriately in a church, but wear a bikini on the beach. School is pants or shorts usually for boys. He can wear the dress outside of school. I guess that runs the risk of conveying you have to hide a part of you, but that is not really the message I want to send.

honestly there is no easy way of answering that unless you have been through that.

I saw that on the today show, cute little boy. I wonder if he just wants to wear dresses and be a “boy princess” as he calls himself, or does he feel more like a girl all the way around.

I don’t know what else to say.

@JLeslie No, that’s really a good example. You can’t wear a bathing suit to school, but you can wear it to the beach. There is a time and place for everything, not necessarily hiding your self, but being aware of rules, regulations and or consequences. I would want to protect my child from bullying.
edited to add: And don’t think that, by any means, it will be just children bullying. Parents will be right there saying ugly things too. I’ve witnessed it myself from adults and it’s pathetic.

Experts call this gender-variant. Gender identity disorder is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Metal Disorders as a mental disorder. Despite lobbying by the LGBT and others it is still in the manual. The National Center for Transgender Equality estimates only about .25 to 1 percent of the US population is transgendered and they say very few gender-variant kids grow up to live as full or part-time members of the opposite sex.

The problem comes when parents of a very young child, a 4-year-old in this case, can’t find some middle ground and immediately starts championing a cause where there may not be one. Promoting her book with her son dressed up on national televison programs and on top of that, this woman is making money at the expense of her son. You can’t start automatically affirming or denying your children as one thing or another based on childish fantasy of a four year old.

@chyna Isn’t that so sad? You’d think we as adults have grown past elementary school thinking.

I’d be worried about some of the shit he’d have to put up with at school and all, but if he was happy doing it, it’s fine with me.

@bkcunningham – whether or not a child wants to wear a dress, or any other article of stereotypically girl’s clothing, doesn’t really have to do with whether they have “gender identity disorder.” It also has nothing to do with them being transgendered.

If a boy wants to wear a dress, that doesn’t mean they don’t still want to be a boy, or think about themselves as a boy, or are confused in any way at all about their gender. Most transvestites are heterosexuals who know that they’re dudes.

Here’s where we create problems. We think wearing a dress means your a girl. A boy wants to wear a dress because he likes it. The adults ask him why, and he says that he likes it, or he thinks it’s pretty, etc. The adults then start saying stuff about him wanting to be a girl. He says no. They keep saying it. Eventually, he DOES start to wonder.

In any case, it takes a real man to leave the house in a dress.

@iamthemob And that’s why women are manlier than men XD

@iamthemob uhh yeah that was my point. It wasn’t me but his mother who is calling him My Princess Boy.

I don’t have kids,so this is easy for me to say…but as long as he is not borrowing from my closet,go right ahead.I would however make sure he keeps up on his martial arts skills.

@bkcunningham He gave himself that name. I don’t know if you all watched the video, but he still climbs trees and things of that nature…

All things aside. I think at 6 a child self esteem is very sensitive. Hell its sensitive till they are well into their teens. He may be oblivious to what others will say right now but no doubt some child will make him feel poorly for his choices. And when he has lost most of his friends and feels lonely and understands that other kids will not accept him for his choices, he will no doubt end up on a conselors chair, blame his mom and dad for not protecting him from wanting to live a fantasy life in public.
I have no problem with him doing at home because he will be allowed to experiment safely without having to deal with bullies at school.

One of my friend’s daughters is a cheerleader at our local high school. There is a boy on the team. The boy is allowed by the school to wear dresses at school, but although he is on the cheerleading squad, he is not allowed to wear a cheerleading dress. He has to wear a “boys” cheerleading uniform which has pants. Not sure why.

I think I would let him wear dresses around the house and maybe sometimes outside with understanding friends and family, depeding upon where they were going. It would also depend on whether the shcool he attended had any prohibitions against it (and why) But I would also want it to be made perfectly clear to my son that we do not yet live in a world that is completely safe for boys to appear in public in girls clothing and it could potentially cause him to be in a position where he is bullied or harmed or made fun of. There would be many discussions and possibly a trip to the pediatrician to see if there is anything “unusual” with regards to the DNA.

I would also let my son know that there are some places where boys wearing girls clothing is not going to be considered “appropriate attire” no matter what (until society is more evolved) Some of these places would be: churches or other places or worship, most schools, other people’s homes, the beach, the zoo, theme parks, most stores, the movie theater, an ice rink, sporting events (watched or played) or pretty much any other public place. That’s just the way it is right now, in 2011. I would tell him that it is not fair (because no one really makes a stink about girls wearing pants or other “boys” clothing). He would just need to know that by choosing to wear girls clothing in public, he will be drawing attention to himself and potential ridicule and danger. If it were a 5 year old boy, I would probably not let him wear girls clothing outside of our home or a dance class or theater class. But when he got older, we would have more discussions and maybe make some allowances. I think I would try to discern whether my son was merely a cross dresser (which is becoming a little more acceptable) or whether he thought he was a girl in a boy’s body and had some urges to get a sex change. Those kinds of things might warrant some time with a therapist to see how to best deal with those issues. And for us, as his family, to best deal with those issues without causing harm.

But of course if you live in a more liberal area, some of the public places would be able to tolerate a boy wearing girls clothing. I’ve noticed in my town, there are some teenage boys that have started wearing skirts, but they are not exactly frilly, lacy skirts. They are more like “Goth” clothes or long denim/industrial skirts, or skirts that are more like a jacket tied around the waist. I think a lot of musical and/or alternative venues that are geared toward young people wouldn’t have as much problem with boys wearing skirts (as teenagers, not little kids).

Truthfully, I think it’s silly for little girls to wear dresses except during formal occasions because dresses aren’t really conducive to little kid play. However, if my child daughter or son was really vehement about it and proved that he/she could play in the dress without getting hurt, I don’t think I’d have a problem with it.

It would be vital to sit down with my son and tell him that people consider dresses to be for women only and that people will be mean to him. I think it would also be important to figure out if he was interested in other things traditionally considered feminine or if he was just interested in dresses.

It’s not really totally unheard of. If you Google images >boys in dresses you will see a lot of them. The parent has to pay a lot of attention to what the boy is thinking/feeling, but I don’t see it as wrong.

We went through several non-conformist phases with my sons, and we kept up a dialog about how they were handling it. My son was especially amused when he went to say goodby to daddy at the airport, and the pilot said “Oh, isn’t she sweet? Would you like to come and look around the cockpit?” I doubt he would have asked if he knew it was a boy.

Sure. And if and when he was teased, ostracized or attacked, I would be behind him 100% with all of my love and support.

A friend’s son did the “Klinger” routine in middle school, and now that he’s in his 20’s, can often be seen sporting a kilt and combat boots. It looks good on him. Clothing and hair color should be non-issues with kids. You can fix it with a trip to the mall and with money. No biggie.

I don’t have male children and if I did and he wanted to wear dresses I would seek some serious counseling from a well qualified child psychologist, so that I would know how to handle the situation.

If I had a son I wouldn’t. It would cause social stigma and it would cause traumatic bullying. Dresses are like high heels. They are strickly a female attire. If he was over 18 and not under my roof then I would have no say in the matter and I would love my son no matter what he does. The fact that he is my son would ensure this. I have a friend who would do this occasionally in high school. He is still a very good friend of mine. He is a very unique guy and wierd in a good way. I never understood it but neither did anyone else. Everyone just accepted him as that was just the way he behaved. Actually it was a skirt not a dress lol. He isn’t gay and he very much conservative and was conservative in high school. That should surprise many lol. It was just his way of being unique. Good guy and I just laughed when he wore a skirt because it was like a middle finger to those who disliked him. :D

My son, Sue, wears women’s clothes exclusively. It’s worked out great all around—he gets hand-me-downs from both his mother and me.

First it annoys me that it somehow is socially acceptable for a girl to wear boy’s clothes but not vice versa. I guess it is just one more example of culture’s teaching that for a female to emulate a male is a good thing because they are superior but for a male to emulate a female is not a good thing, they are weak and less desireable. That of course is true until it comes to choosing a girlfriend, then the sexiest, most feminine is better.

But as annoyed as it makes me I would have to say I wouldn’t like it. I was always a tom boy even though I am heterosexual female. I still prefer slacks or shorts to a skirt. But I never had an easy time of it. So I can’t imagine the amount of crap a boy is going to have to endure. I would definitely steer him away from wearing girl’s clothes in public for his own sake.

I think that mother is not doing the right thing by having the kid on national tv in a tutu either. She did the book without faces so why must she expose and I think exploit the kid publicly.

@rooeytoo I get what you are saying about thinking it is acceptable to a girl to wear boys clothing, but not vice versa, but it not the same. Woman had to fight to wear “practical” clothing like trousers. Back in the day, we were unable to ride horseback safely, we could trip on our skirts going up and down stairs, and need help even getting dressed. Later, or more recently, skirts were shorter, but it still brought impracticalities along with them for doing certain types of work, and putting women at a disadvantage in other ways. Women wanted to wear pants not to dress like men, in my opinion, but to have the same freedoms men enjoyed by being able to wear trousers.

@JLeslie – yes you are probably right, I would guess that most women dress in male’s clothing because it is more practical and comfortable. But if one were to pursue that line of reasoning completely, then men should be able to wear skirts in the summer because they are somewhat cooler. Why do you think they don’t??? I reckon that is where culture and male superiority come in. But I acknowledge that I am extremely over sensitive on this subject so that could be getting in the way of logic in my already overstuffed brain!!!

What about kilts and Dishdashahs? Where do they fit into the discussion men’s and women’s clothing?

@rooeytoo Yes, of course there is some sexism in it, or at minimum societal norms and expectations, I can’t argue with that. Personally, I don’t really feel like dresses and skirts are cooler, but they are less cumbersome. If someone is in discomfort, heavy, or hard to fit, a one piece garment, like a loose dress is more practical. Some cultures use such garmets for men, like in the middle east. As @bkcunningham pointed out countries like Scottland have kilts. So, there are exceptions around the world.

I would be very torn simply because, I would have no problem with him wearing a dresses but the rest of society probably would. I would be terrified of him being bullied and so, because of that I would make sure he was very aware of what society expects, rightly or wrongly, and how people may treat him before letting him go out in public wearing a dress. I would want any child of mine to be true to themselves but I also strongly believe in making sure that they know what to expect from life and people, and so it would be cruel of me to let a boy go out in public wearing a dress, completely oblivious to how mean people can be to those that are different.

If so many of us say we don’t want to let our kids be harassed, then why do we think everyone else would bully them? Is the Emperor wearing any clothes here?

@wundayatta – I’m a little confused – I mean, so often when we really want to protect ourselves and our families, we’re not really concerned, and frequently dismissive, about the welfare of others.

One of the more literal incarnations is the whole “If I don’t want my kid to be bullied, I have to teach my kid to be tough.”

@iamthemob I am trying to say that everyone says they would let their son wear a dress, but no one does because they don’t want their kids to be teased. Reminds me of “Young Goodman Brown” by Nathaniel Hawthorne. Everyone in town acts all religious and proper. Goodman Brown is convinced by the Devil to attend his rites. Brown gets to the rites, only to find everyone else in town has cut their own deal with the Devil.

If everyone thinks it’s ok to wear dresses but doesn’t because of the fear of social reprisal, then we’d find there would be no social reprisal because it was actually ok with everyone. See what I mean? So we’re all withholding out of fear of others, when others are all ok with it.

Of course, what parents think may not be the same thing as the kids in the playground think.

@wundayatta – Okay – I thought that’s what you might mean.

My one real criticism of that is the threads a pretty self-selecting group within a pretty self-selecting group. So I’m not sure how this population stands up in numbers to the population who might answer “Hell NO! I didn’t raise my boy to be some queer, and any kid who comes to the playground like that deserves what they get.”

@iamthemob And that is, rightly or wrongly, but I suspect rightly, what many of us as parents fear.

The bottom line is that everyone gets bullied at some point or other as kids. I was a nice, normal child who kept her head down and stayed neatly within the confines of my social group and I was bullied. What makes the difference is how the kids can handle the situation. A good support group comprised of family and friends however few friends your child might have will help a child deal with the bullying without hurting anyone, including himself. When I was in school, I remember that the kids who got bullied the most were the ones who were alone. They were often the most normal, mild-mannered kids who ended up on the wrong end of a mean kid. The weirdest kids may have gotten picked on, but they usually found other weird kids. Since they weren’t alone, they weren’t easy targets, nor were they as susceptible to the effects of bullying. As long as you support your child and let him know that he will always have a place at home, that’s what will make the difference.

@KatawaGrey – I don’t know if I agree with the statement “everyone gets bullied” ... but I think it’s semantic more than anything.

Everyone gets teased, that’s for sure. But for teasing to rise to bullying, I feel like there has to be a focus, regularity and severity that I wouldn’t say I experienced at all. I don’t think I was ever bullied, therefore.

The concern I would have as a parent in this situation would be that my child would be the subject of bullying and not simple teasing. I would do everything to support my son, and I wouldn’t be concerned with taking any administrative or legal action if my son weren’t properly protected against whoever necessary. But my concern, besides my son’s safety, would be that I might encourage him to continue doing something that he wanted to stop by defending him too vehemently (if that makes any sense).

@iamthemob: You are correct, it was just semantics. :) However, I think the important thing to take away from my statement is that the most normal kids get teased and bullied. Lonely kids get bullied. Wearing a dress might make a male child an easy target but it depends on a lot more than what he’s wearing.

@iamthemob I thought about that, too. The people here are probably not representative of those in the real world. And yet….

What if they are? What if we are all acting in fear of what we think other people believe and they’re doing the same thing? I guess we’ll never know, but it shows you the power that our ideas about conformity have.

@wundayatta The issue with your statement is everyone too encompassing. The bullies may be few, but by their behavior, they are the controlling influence on the playground.

@YARNLADY Aye, and much later in life, too. I would never let it be believed that because bullies may be few, that they cannot devastate a person, most especially when they, indeed, tend to be ringleaders, so to speak.
Whether you’re a boy wearing a dress or a girl with buck teeth, it doesn’t matter the perception of onlookers as to what is mild or severe bullying, it all hurts like hell to the person being attacked, and people get attacked for all sorts of retarded reasons, not just things that stand out more than others.

@Symbeline You and @YARNLADY are so right. One bully can wreak devastation that lasts a lifetime.

I can understand supporting someone on this issue but the problem is that it is inappropriate for a male to wear a dress. When the bullying assholes who look for any reason no matter how small to bully someone see a boy wear a dress then that boy is definitely going to be in their crosshairs for now on. The bullying this boy will recieve will be extremely traumatic. Could be even fatal. Technically I could wear clothing made from burlap sacks and nobody could tell me not to. Will I get humiliated for it? Yes for sure. Will I get any respect. Absolutley not. What we wear is influenced by the cultures we live in. A man wearing a dress is not an accepted behaviour in our culture. A dress is considered strictly a female attire. Even a skirt could be wore by a man (like a kilt) and people will not be as repulsed by it as the would be if he wore a dress. If my son asked me if he could wear a dress I would have to have a long talk with him.

@Mikewlf337: Would you allow your child to do anything that went against cultural norms?

If my kid went to a school where clothing was no big deal then maybe but not likely. For a kid, outside your head and outside your door is very real and very threatening, even dangerous.

If my son were a grown independent man, aware general society’s association of dresses with females and still confident with himself and his means they yes, it wouldn’t offend, annoy or distract me. I will say I’d be fearful of my son, child or grown man being harassed or attacked over it.

To me, a piece of clothing isn’t worth being beat on, being discriminated against amongst coworkers, having my livelihood jeopardized in any way so I’d counsel my kid to weigh it’s possible affects.

@KatawaGrey I would not allow him to do anything that would get him severely bullied by 99% of the population. Wearing a dress in public would result in relentless bullying even from people who don’t usually bully people. Wearing a dress in public would mean having little to no respect from most people. Not a big deal? It is a big deal. People can get killed for doing such things. A man wearing a dress may not want to get bullied but he is asking for it if he does such a thing as wearing a dress. I’m not saying I condone him being bullied but I will say that if you douse yourself in honey and then walk into a bear pit you cannot complain about the outcome. There is a such thing as gender specific clothing. That’s why they were made in the first place.

@Mikewlf337

And such attitudes are unfortunately maintained more easily if no one steps into the bear pit. That’s what civil rights based protest is all about. It’s why black students sat at white’s only counters in the 1960s.

The practical concerns about the issue are well stated, but I think exaggerated. Using that as a reason why not to let it happen, however, is the reverse of progress.

also, just because there is such a thing as gender specific clothing doesn’t mean that there’s a fundamental reason why there’s such a thing as gender specific clothing. If that were the case, women still wouldn’t be allowed to wear pants.

@iamthemob This isn’t a race issue. It is a choice to wear womens clothing. I do not think that most men want to wear dresses much less be caught in one unless it was all a joke in the first place. If a person likes to wear dresses then go for it but I recommend doing that in the privacy of their own home not in public. People are not kind and will ridicule a person for such actions. If i had a son I would not let him do it under my own roof because it would be my responsibility to make sure he thrives in this world. Allowing him to do this would only subject him to redicule wich would hinder his progress. I cannot change the way people think. Most people will redicule him for wearing a dress. I don’t want him to be subject to that. The point I am trying to make is that a dress is designed for women not men. Men are men and women are women. A woman can wear men clothing and people may not take a second look but if a man wears a woman’s attire which usually are made to look different than a man’s attire they will take notice and they will redicule them. Redicule is just a fact of life and you must raise your kids accordingly if you want them to go through life with as little redicule as necessary.

@Mikewlf337

You’re kind of reversing the perspective. It’s a choice to wear women’s clothing. It’s also a choice to eat at a place that’s designated for people of another race. But a boy doesn’t choose to be a boy any more that a black person chooses to be black.

Yes, we can conform our behavior to be in line with how we’re told it should be. And yes, it will help make sure we avoid ridicule. And we also want to make sure we raise our children so that they have the easiest life possible. But we should also raise them to stand up for what they believe in. And if it’s a situation where that child is taking a position that, objectively, isn’t harmful or wrong in any way other than what society says is right or wrong, we should stand by them as much as possible because it is society that should change to accept the behavior, rather than someone feeling like what they’re doing is wrong and changing the behavior just because it will be easier on them. Where we feel like it’s doing them more harm than good is a line we all have to figure out, but it should be that we tell them we’re concerned for them because of what others think, not because of what they think.

It’s pretty ridiculous, objectively, that a boy wearing a dress should result in ridicule. Especially a kid. I don’t think boys look good in dresses – but it’s also weird to consider this as something “improper” when boys and girls pre-puberty don’t really look all that different physically. And it’s troubling when you consider that girls wearing boys clothes is okay. So when you look at why society acts like it does or reacts as it does in this situation, it seems clear that those that are freaking out about a boy in a dress are the ones with the problem.

@Mikewlf337 great answers- common sense and reality, I love it.

@faye – I don’t think that there was a lack in the common sense or reality in the other posts on the thread.

@iamthemob I don’t think it is rediculous that a boy wearing a dress is subject to redicule. If I were to go out in public wearing a pair of breifs on my head people will laugh and redicule me. There is no need to wear a dress. It is a choice. Everyone knows that if a boy wears a dress out in public that he will get rediculed. To ask everyone not to laugh is asking a bit too much. Of course most people will laugh and/or be disgusted by it. They will look at the parents and would think to themselves about what kind of parents this kid has. He will become outcasted because lets face it. Most boys will not want to be friends with a boy who wears a dress. I am not condoning bullying the kid I am just saying that redicule and bullying is something that WILL happen to this kid and with him giving them fuel to do it you can also place the blame on the boy for wearing the dress in the first place and the parents for letting him. Parents have rules and when a kid is under his parents roof then it is their rules not his. Any man or boy who does such things in public has to know for a fact that redicule will come of it. If they didn’t expect it then this boy has been living in a cave and the parents didn’t do a good job informing him of what’s out there in the world.

You keep comparing this to the civil rights movement. This is nothing like the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement is a movement to end discrimination of people because of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. It isn’t a movement to condone unusual behavior no matter what it is.

@Mikewlf337

I have to now…really quickly, the word is “ridicule.”

When you say there’s no need to wear a dress, that’s why it’s ridiculous – there’s no need to where anything at all. Clothes serve a purpose only in that they protect us from the elements. Otherwise, it’s decoration. So it is ridiculous to say that it’s okay for people to subject one person to physical abuse because they have a particular style – and when we are talking about this issue, a concern is ridicule, the fear is abuse.

And indeed – but it’s never been debated that ridicule and probably (I think) bullying is going to happen. And my initial post stated that I would let it happen, but I would warn the kid “You know you’re probably going to face some shit, right?”

I compare it to the civil rights movement not because of the magnitude, but because of the message to my kid. I’m saying that if you want to do something, and you know the consequences, but you don’t think intolerance of the behavior is supportable, regardless of your age, I’m going to stand by you. And in this case, why the hell should anyone care if a boy wears a dress? There’s no…objective…reason. None. So, if we’re saying it’s wrong for some reason, and that a kid should expect and not be upset when they get teased for it…we’re saying that the reaction is reasonable to the boy. And, in the end, I think that people that stand by the argument that a boy shouldn’t wear a dress must come up with a good reason to state why, other than the ridicule…because that’s just a cyclical argument – we’re saying that a boy shouldn’t wear a dress because he’ll be teased…and he’ll be teased because he’s wearing a dress.

@iamthemob so if clothes serve a purpose only to protect us from the elements, why don’t people (with the exception of the minority group of naturists) go naked inside their homes our outside in public on days when it would be cooler to be naked? I mean, how did we evolve to wearing clothes for decoration and gender specific in the first place?

@bkcunningham

There are plenty of cultures that do exactly that. The question isn’t why don’t we do something – but really why shouldn’t we. If the reason is pretty much “Well, people don’t do tit now and it’s been this way as far as I know for a while,” then there’s no reason to not do the alternative, or an alternative.

And the fact that fashion and what is appropriate for one gender or another isn’t fixed even in Western cultures by any standards is an indication that the reasons for assigning one style to one gender or the other is a pretty superfluous character of culture.

@iamthemob Thanks for correcting me even though you did it out of spite.

I’m going to be blunt now. Dresses are for women and only for women. A boy wants to wear a dress? He better prepare for ridicule. He cannot complain because he through himself into the lions den by wearing a dress. He can either put the dress back into the closet or grow thicker skin. You said that some cultures go naked when the elements allow it. NOT THIS CULTURE. The culture most of us live in have not gone naked in public for thousands of years and you think we should just because you think so. If you want a culture that does everything you think it should then you better go form a gated community with like minded people because there will ALWAYS be people who disagree with something so much that they will laugh at you for it. If I go outside wearing nothing but breifs and get mad or hurt because people laughed at me or looked at me in disgust then I have only myself to blame. If I complain about it to others they will say something like “Dude you parading around in your underwear and you expect people not to ridicule you for it?” Same thing goes for a dress. There is a such thing as gender specific clothing just as their is a such thing as genders. We are born either male or female and nothing will change that. Our culture decided that dresses are for women a long long long time ago and not a thing has changed just because you feel differently. Any man or boy who chooses to wear a dress in public is also making a very selfish decision. His family will have to endure ridicule because of his decision to wear a dress. He also would put a big bullseye on himself for violent bullying. Why should he have to endure this over a stupid decision to wear a dress. A parent who allows this to happen is a sorry excuse for a parent. Simply put it. Society has a set of rules. Deviate from those rules and there are consequences. That is all. There is nothing you can say that will change my mind on this.

@Mikewlf337 Society has a set of rules. Deviate from those rules and there are consequences. That is all.

Well, that’s kind of obvious. There are consequences to everything. Everything.

But you’re implying that someone would be an idiot to deviate from those rules. They’d be asking for trouble, and that’s just plain stupid. Am I wrong in my interpretation? Even if you aren’t saying that, it’s a common enough attitude.

It’s just pathetic. It’s the herd of sheep mentality. It’s group think. It’s mob mentality. What do we teach our children when we teach them to not deviate? We teach them not to think for themselves. We teach them not to have any desires other than socially acceptable ones. We teach to be followers. We teach them to hide any “abnormal” personality traits deep down inside where noone can ever know.

That’s a piss poor excuse for a society, in my opinion. A parent who allows this to happen is a sorry excuse for a parent. A sheep, a follower, a dull person. I seriously hope you are just saying what you wrote for effect and you don’t really mean it. For one thing, it’s un-American.

America is supposed to be about standing up for what you believe in. It’s supposed to be about standing up for what is right, regardless of the opposition. It’s supposed to be about integrity and strength,and when you refuse to let your son wear that dress, you are telling him that he can’t be himself. He’s got to hide himself. He’s got to follow the pack or else he gets picked on.

You’ve fallen into some kind of trap where you believe things are as you were told they were. You believe that gender is categorical, with only two categories, rather than a range of genders that includes far more than male and female. You say that because the vast majority of people identify as male or female, anyone else would be stupid to show up in any other way and they should expect to be teased, bullied and lynched for going against the majority.

Pathetic.

I’d say, “how can you call yourself a man,” but it so happens that I don’t think men are the only ones who have attributes of integrity and strength even in the face of overwhelming opposition. In fact, now that I think about it, it seems like men are more like sheep than men, for the most part. Very few will stand up to be themselves. Most look to someone else to do the talking, to do the leading.

I teach my kids to be leaders. My son wanted to wear girly stuff in fifth grade. I told him that I thought he might get teased, but it was up to him. He said he didn’t care. He wore what he wore, and as far as I know, no one bullied him or teased him. It may have happened. I don’t know. He did stop wearing that stuff, but it was his own choice. Later on he became a leader for the art boys. I guess he’s not one of the soccer kids. But he drew a group of five or six boys to him because he loves to draw, and he’s good at it, and I guess the other kids wanted to be like him.

He’s into cars and cell phones and catapults and trebuchets and whatever. People change. They try out stuff, but it seems to me that they usually do come to conform soon enough. But if we force them to; we keep them inside the lines; we build that box around them, and we create the people who can’t think outside it.

There is no box. My son knows it. Telling our children they can’t experiment is dooming them to live inside a box that gets smaller and smaller until it is the coffin they are buried in. And for what?

Conformity?

You can’t possibly believe that.

@iamthemob so, seriously, if this 4-year-old decided clothing was restrictive and wanted to go about nude or just in his underpants, why shouldn’t his parents allow him to do so and fight for his right to do so?

@iamthemob no, there is a bunch of whining about this is how it should be kind of talk, imo.

@bkcunningham some of the ideas about what is appropriate for men and women is changing. In my town (if you read my answer way up at the beginning) there is a boy on the cheerleading squad. They won’t let him wear a cheerleading uniform, most likely because there are some regulations in that sport itself that don’t allow it (like women’s figure skating used to not let females wear unitards, they had to only wear dresses/skirts). Anyway, at school they don’t have any rules or regulations against him wearing dresses so they let him wear dresses. They also have a zero tolerance policy against harrassment and bullying. So far he’s doing ok, although I’m sure he does get teased. But to say that dresses are only for women is just silly. Also, there are a number of young teenaged boys that adhere to the alternative cultures in our town (music, skateboarding, goth etc.) who have started to wear skirts. They’re not frilly and I would not call them pretty skirts, but they are skirts none-theless and it is becoming much more acceptable.

We also have a large gay community in our town and there are plenty of fellas wearing dresses around town, especially on a Saturday night. Although some of them you might not know are men. Either way, men are starting to wear dresses and hopefully society is getting more tolerant by the minute. Dresses, in and of themselves, don’t hurt people.

@Kardamom I’m from a very, very small town. In 1977, in a neighboring town (just as small) in the same county, there was a boy who wore dresses, makeup and sometimes wigs all of the time. Even in high school he wore women’s clothing. His senior photo shows him in drag. To each his own. My hometown’s attorney is gay as was his business partner who would be in his 90s if he was still alive. We had teachers at school who were alternative before people called it such. It isn’t a new occurrence is what I’m trying to say I guess.

I mean no offense, but I find it curious how you are promoting this tolerence of alternative thinking and boys wearing skirts et al….and then explain the skirts the young teenagers are wearing by saying, “They’re not frilly and I would not call them pretty skirts…” It isn’t a critique of your statements by any means. Just an observation while trying to understand your thinking.

@bkcunningham I am trying to promote tolerance for everybody that has a different way of being that is not hurtful to other people. Gays, people of color, men that want to wear dresses, people with gender identity issues, vegetarians, atheists, people who believe in a God other than the white, American Christian God, pagans, artists, people with tatoos, men with long hair, women with short hair, people with handicaps, people who don’t enjoy or participate in typical all American pastimes like baseball etc. etc. etc.

I’m just telling you what the skirts look like. They are not frilly and not pretty. They don’t even necessarily look like a typical dress or skirt that your average woman or girl would wear. I’m describing what they look like. But they are still dresses. The dresses that the gay fellows are wearing for “drag” look pretty much like frilly or typical dresses. Neither one of these kinds of skirts are bad in my book and people should try to be more tolerant of people that are different from the norm, as long as they aren’t hurting people there shouldn’t be so much out-rage.

I can see that if you come from a small town, it would be difficult for you to see how things are in bigger cities. You should give Los Angeles or New York or Miami or San Francisco a try. I think you would see a lot of things that you might be initially shocked by, that are totally harmless, and becoming much more main stream. Non frilly dresses on teenaged boys is one of those things. And frilly dresses on men is another one. These people aren’t out there to hurt anyone.

@bkcunningham I’m from a small town. I have lived all over the country. You missed my entire point.

This is stupid. Why is it that I have to say something like “Oh yeah it perfectly cool if you want to wear a dress son!” When deep down inside I know it is not perfectly cool and that he will be bullied and tormented to the point where he may even commit suicide. That it is ok that he become a pariah just because he wanted to wear dresses in public. It is like some of you want me to ditch all my views and agree with you. I know I am right about this and I don’t need someone who thinks everyone should be like them to tell me how I should do things. Is it so hard for some of you to understand that? There is a word for it and it is called ETIQUETTE. Everyone deviates from it to some degree but a man or boy wearing a dress is deviating too far. I know I’m going to catch hell for this but this is the truth. I don’t really care if you makes some of you mad. A man standing in front of me in a dress is insulting to me. It is bad manners for a man to prance in public in a dress. He knows it’s not acceptable behavior and he doesn’t care. He just does it. He has the option of doing that in private but instead does it front of everyone. This is not the same as being gay. Being gay is not a choice. Wearing a dress is and a man who wants to wear a dress has the option to do it in the privacy of his own home. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. You need to respect the ones around you and if you choose to disrespect them then they will disrespect you.

@iamthemob “Well, people don’t do tit now and it’s been this way as far as I know for a while” Ha! You said tit!

@Mikewlf337 Dude, seriously, by saying that someone is disrespecting you by wearing a dress in public (who knew that his clothing choices were really all about you?) you’re basically putting all the blame on the other person when you ridicule them. Yes, a boy wearing a dress will probably get ridiculed at least once. So what? I got ridiculed in school for clothing choices, not being stick-thin, my haircut, standing up for my beliefs, not standing up for my beliefs… There’s just no stinking way anyone can avoid a certain amount of ridicule. It’s a fact of life. So if you’re going to get shit no matter what you do, why not do what makes you happy in the mean time? So long as they’re just slinging words, who gives a crap? If the child starts getting depressed because of the bullying, then maybe it’s time to stop the dress-wearing (or, you know, help him develop thicker skin…). But why shouldn’t he at least try it out if he wants to? Nothing’s ever going to change if no one sticks their neck out a little bit.

@papayalily I know he choices of clothing wasn’t about me. When one ignore social etiquette they are showing disrespect. Like burping at a dinner table while everyone is eating. When one shows up at a wedding wearing jogging pants and dirty sneakers are they not frowned apon? A man or boy wearing a dress is showing a lack of respect for everyone around him. He doesn’t care about manners. I tried to keep this out of this thread but some of you got your panties in a twist.

@Mikewlf337

That’s hilarious. I cut the correction out of my first response just because I didn’t want it to seem snarky. It was not out of spite – simply telling you you’re spelling a word wrong. Believe me or not, but I can say that I wasn’t trying to assume you’re ignorant just because you couldn’t spell a word. Showing me the courtesy of not assuming intention in throwing out a mistake that you should know about, especially like that, would have been appreciated. ;-)

The culture most of us live in have not gone naked in public for thousands of years and you think we should just because you think so.

Nope. I just said that if someone wants to do it, if you’re going to make a big deal about it, have a big reason. You always advocate that people should respect your opinion, and let you have your beliefs. I advocate the same. However, I don’t see you actually practicing what you preach. Nobody should tell you what to wear. Why should anyone tell someone what they should casually wear or not in daily life? Such a hypocrite.

A parent who allows this to happen is a sorry excuse for a parent.

I think a parent who doesn’t teach their kid to stand up for something they don’t believe in or think for themselves is a sorry excuse for a parent. That’s what you’re saying you’ll do…so…

Raising kids to be afraid of what people say about them and you’re going to end up with some chickenshit kids.

There is nothing you can say that will change my mind on this.

You say this all the time. I’ll be blunt now too…the above statement, particularly when it’s about something as trivial as what a boy should where, is the stupidest thing anyone can say. I couldn’t care less about changing your mind. I never intended to. I’ve never seen you show any sort of thought about an issue, and if you can’t understand what I’ve said above…well, I hold out hope one day you’ll learn. Not much, though….

@bkcunningham

I don’t think this was covered – but I think you do bring up a good point when you say “the dress wasn’t frilly” etc.

I feel like you’re saying people are claiming to say one shouldn’t be locked into social norms in this circumstance, but at the same time showing that they buy into the norms they’re discounting. If so, I think that it’s a good point to show how there’s a disconnect there.

The point is a dress is girly because we’ve decided what we think girly is. But my big problem with this is that no one, no one seems to take major issue when a girl dresses pretty much like a little boy. We generally assume the girl will grow out of it and let it roll.

It’s a double standard. Women can wear masculine clothes, the opposite isn’t true. It just screams that there’s something wrong with being feminine to me. That’s bullshit, as far as I’m concerned.

And I think that you raise an important supportive point when, as I read your statements, indicate that the dress was okay cause it was kind of a manly dress. Still the same problem.

@faye

Well – the way it should be is that a boy shouldn’t be teased for this. It’s stupid. Why the hell do we care if a child wears a dress, or pants, or a batman costume? They’re friggin kids…and they have they’re entire life to have to wear certain clothes at certain times. Let it be…;-)

@Mikewlf337 (again)

We’re not talking about etiquette. We’re talking about everyday life. When you say that a man or a boy wearing a dress shows “disrespect” for everyone around him – seriously? They’re disrespected cause they see a dude in a dress?

We should be dressing how we feel on the inside, not how others want us to appear. Events, the workplace, those are the times you show respect through dress. But if it were the case that we should dress how others think we should be perceived all the time…well…the way you act on here…I’m pretty sure the vote would be to have you walking around in a puffy polka dot jumpsuit, a blue curly wig, and a big red nose.

But you know, far be it from me to try to tell you what to do.

@iamthemob yes that was my point.

Here is my only problem with the entire discussion. The subject started talking about a 4-year-old boy. I don’t know his mother or her intentions so I’ll leave out my opinions on her book deal the and publicity appearances with her son. Who knows, right? Anyway, this is a little boy who wanted to put on a princess dress. Who knows why? He like the color? He liked the way it flowed when he jumped up and down and jumped out of the tree. He like the material. I dunno. To me, no biggie.

But, in my mind, he was pigeonholed and pushed into something by the mother and others on here defending his right for this or for that. He’s 4 years old. He is a child playing and using his imagination. I mean, if she had a daughter and she wanted to wear the princess fairy costume to school and the mother told her, “No sweetheart, it is dress-up for play.” That doesn’t mean that the little girl would be denied anything or harmed in any way you have pointed out.

No. It would mean, this is pretend dress up things and we don’t wear that to school. Or, perhaps she had been allowed to wear it to school and soon grew tierd of it like many 4-years old are prone to do.

What if the mother hadn’t pushed it with the little boy and he dropped it and just played at home. End of story. Or if he wore it to school and grew tierd of it and dropped the whole thing. But what if she pushed it and was all freaked out, “You like dresses. You can’t wear dresses. Well do you want to wear dresses? Well, you should be whatever you want to be and yes, you can wear dresses.” (And I’m going to write a book about being yourself and bullying and go on television. Sorry I was going to ignore my inclinations about the mother’s motives.)

Or what if she explained to the little boy it was dress up and he said, “Well I want a real dress to wear to school.” Besides not hardly believing that at 4 year old would reason that out, if he did, then that is the time to deal with it according to your own belief system. And allow it or not allow it.

I just think it was all sort of pushed and made into something it really wasn’t. That’s my opinion and I might be wrong.

@bkcunningham

True. I commented on the fact that I would allow it, but my concern would be reinforcing the behavior – the example can be more subtle than actively pushing it. There’s a fine line between support and influence, and I would bet you’re probably right that this parent crossed way over to the dark side on this one.

May final argument in this is that things like that should be kept private. If the man wants to wear a dress in the privacy of his own home then let him. Going out in public like that is just asking for ridicule. You don’t have to be upfront to such a degree. Doing that will get you into alot of trouble. Trouble that could be easily avoided by just keeping personal quirks like that to oneself. It really isn’t a big deal as long as he is not prancing in public like that. Most people are not kind to that sort of behavior and one doesn’t have to change who he is but others don’t have to have it thrown right in their faces either.

That same argument has been applied to gay people. Please, @Mikewlf337, listen to yourself. If you believe the below, I don’t ever want to hear you bitch about how you get flack about expressing your opinion as you did in this thread. Respect, after all, is a two-way street.

“thinks like that should be kept in private”

“if a man wants to [do that] in the privacy of his own home then let him. Going out in public like that is asking for ridicule.”

“You don’t have to be upfront to such a degree.”

“Trouble that could be easily avoided by just keeping [behavior] like that to oneself”

“It really isn’t a big deal as long as he is not prancing in public like that.”

“Most people are not kind to that sort of behavior and one doesn’t have to change who he is but other’s don’t have to have it thrown right in their faces either.”

Be whoever you want to be. But stray from society standards in front of me, and you deserve whatever you get.

The mantra of an enlightened society.

Seig Heil!

@iamthemob whatever. Like I said before. That was my last argument on that subject. I don’t what you expect to prove in posting a past thread since it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Nice finishing touch with the “Seig Heil” at the end. Just your style. Taking things way overboard. Overexaggeration at its finest!

@Mikewlf337 Not over exaggeration, at all. Emphasis to make a point. A little oomph to finish off the ending of a well thought out discussion.

I think it’s been said better by another:

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- The idea that someone should not do something because other people don’t like it is the beginning. No one is making a big deal about a boy in a dress except those who say a man in a dress deserves whatever violence he gets.

If it’s not a big deal, if I’m exaggerating…there really wouldn’t be any fear of “violence” at all.

@iamthemob sorry that you don’t like the current very tolerant dress code that we enjoy. I guess the few rules that society has on dress codes are too many for you. All rules are a form of facism I guess. You sound like an Anarchist.

@Mikewlf337

It’s not about what I like or don’t like. That’s what you’re missing. It’s about what’s right and wrong, at this point.

Personally, I follow society’s dress code. But there’s no reason I should, other than I’m cool with it.

And I don’t think all rules are a form of fascism. Fascism is, however, the root of your argument, unfortunately. Please understand what you’re saying, and the arguments you’re making. Fascists claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. I argue people should be allowed to wear what they want, and you’re arguing they shouldn’t do it if the community, for some reason, objects. This is contrary to your previous position, which you’ve repeated, that people shouldn’t criticize your opinion because it’s different, but respect it. That’s why the earlier link to the thread was relevant.

But the only rule under discussion has been, of course, dress. To expand that to “all rules are fascist, and then to say that means I’m an anarchist, is simplification defined. I don’t expect to get you to understand this, but I don’t have to prove a fact.

I expect that if someone wears what they want, they shouldn’t have to fear anything from those around them. If they are attacked, particularly physically, I expect the state to protect them, and punish those who made him the object of attack. A lawful and ordered society is one where individuals are free to do as they wish until it harms another. You say if they do that, they should expect what happens, and not be hurt or surprised because they only have themselves to blame. That’s an argument in favor of vigilante justice. That’s closer to anarchy.

Nope. We’re responsible for how we react when we see something we don’t like. And damn, if you think it’s disrespectful for a man to wear a dress, it’s probably better you go someplace more fundamentalist.

In the U.S., we prefer freedom.

@iamthemob All I said was that if a man wears a dress that they should expect to get made fun because it is not normal behavior. I never said that they deserved violence. It can however result in violence. you can’t expect to avoid bullying and a parent should never let his son do something that would cause him needless bullying. He isn’t going to achieve anything by wearing a dress. All that achieves is dirty looks. ridicule and exclusion from society. He doesn’t need to be left all alone over a silly dress. The kid in the article is 4 years old. He isn’t old enough to understand. They parent should not encourage him to do things like that. They should just say no, you are not wearing a dress. Dresses are for girls. This boy is not old enough to desire to wear a dress. It is something he will forget about in 3 minutes unless his parents encourage it. He doesnt need that bullying. We are social beings and to be alienated because of a dress seems a bit much for a child.

@Mikewlf337 – You said a little more, though. You said that it would be something that the person shouldn’t complain about because they brought it on themselves.

That’s the difference. Most people on this thread said that bullying would be the concern. However, bullying is wrong. Therefore, if it’s happening, it should change. That requires, of course, that the person bullying complain. And if they shouldn’t complain because it’s something they brought on themselves…

…He shouldn’t be left alone because he wore a dress, you say. But what you mean is that he shouldn’t wear a dress at all. I would say the same thing, but I think let’s point the finger at who’s fault it is – those isolating him.

Now, no one is saying that he should be encouraged to do it, necessarily. The parent in question definitely is…and I think it’s taking it too far. But he totally is old enough to want to wear a dress…but that’s pretty much all it is. I wouldn’t try to make him feel like this was wrong, but I would have a sit down with him before he really decided that was what he wanted.

That’s what you have to understand. You kept arguing that it was disrespectful. You kept arguing that it was something to be kept to oneself.

No. It’s smart, and it’s easy, to conform.

I think it was you that said:

“So basically you think people should be bullied into living a certain way by being taxed heavily if they don’t comply. I’m glad you don’t run society.

Telling people what to eat and how to live their life is wrong no matter how you put it. It won’t result in anarchy if you allow people to live their lives peacefully the way they want to.”

People can wear what they want. Eat what they want. It’s why I love it here.

Did you see the smile on that boys face when his Mom was reading the book to him?

Of course, I would.

@iamthemob Maybe in your eyes wearing a dress is not something to be frowned upon and that there is no gender specific clothing but most people believe that there is gender specific clothing. You stated earlier how clothing shouldn’t be required but despite what you think things like wearing clothing is what seperates us from animals. A man shouldn’t wear a dress. That is all there is to it. A dress was invented for women. Maybe you dream of a world wear men run around in dress and people run around naked but most of us don’t want to see that. In a clothing store you will see a woman section and a mens section. It is like that for a reason. It is like that because there is gender specific clothing. If a man chooses to run around town in a dress acting like an idiot with no sense of how other percieve him then he should realize it if he has any intelligence at all that he will get ridicule and laughed at. Do you really think everyone is going to respect him? That if he runs up to a counter of a store or whatever that the person behind that counter is not going to give him a goofy look, laugh, or just tell him to get out of his store or place of business? Do you think that people on the street is not going to shy away from him. Should he become a social pariah just because he chose to wear a dress. The boy in the article is 4 years old. Those are formative years. Why would any respectable parent allow him to think that this sort of behavior is fine? It isn’t fine to allow your child take his first steps to being a social pariah.

I had to chuckle tonight, I went to the grocery store and there was a very large, not fat, just big South Sea Island man wearing a sarong type wrap around skirt. It was a beautiful print, I loved it, he was wearing it with a singlet in a coordinating color. And let me tell you he was big enough and muscly enough that no one would have given him a hard time about a man wearing a skirt!!!

@Mikewlf337

It’s not about what I want. And your logic is flawed. The fact that we wear clothing and that’s what separates us from the animals doesn’t support any reason for male and female clothing. The fact that a dress may have been invented for a woman neglects differences across the globe and across time (kilts? togas? What’s the difference). So, this is about social perception, and we need to figure out where and why we have these.

Women can wear mens clothing without suffering ridicule, for the most part. Men can’t do the same. Why is this? Because culturally, there is a need to reinforce the idea that there’s something wrong with being a women, for the most part. If that were not the case, why the difference? If pants were invented for women, why can women wear pants without ridicule?

You’re not thinking about why it’s one way and not the other. When you say “A man shouldn’t wear a dress. That is all there is to it.” you’re not arguing a point, you’re buying into a philosophy. You’re being lead by the heard. You’re being a sheep. You’re also judging how we should behave by how others react to us. That’s group-think. That’s again…being a sheep.

You can keep on yelling about how this is the way it’s supposed to be…but until you actually present an argument that doesn’t sound like Carrie’s mom screaming “They’re all going to laugh at you!” you’re not trying to figure out who’s right and wrong here – you’re just agreeing with the bullies because you’re afraid.

That’s the clearest example of the kind of thought that let’s us stay ignorant. Keep your opinion if you want. But if you insist on making it seem like you’re right, make an argument. Don’t just say “Because people are mean.” I don’t speak chickenshit.

@iamthemob My logic is just fine. It is your logic that is flawed. There is no logical reason for a man to wear a dress and prance around public like an idiot. I don’t care if you think I am “afraid” just because I have some social ettiquette. By the way, I will say “Because people are just mean.” because it’s true. I will say whatever I want as long as I am within my rights and there isn’t a thing you can do about it but disagree with it.

The logical reason for a man or a boy or a teenaged boy to wear a dress can be for all sorts of reasons. He might think they are pretty and make him feel pretty. He might like the way they look just because the dresses look nice. He might like to wear them because he thinks they’re more comfortable. He might like to wear them because they make him feel sexy (plenty of women wear them for that reason, why not men?) He might like to wear them because they are unique for men. He might like to wear them because he’d like to change the minds of people who have no good reason to give him for not wearing one (because they’re not harmful) He might want to wear them so that he can show other people that he’s still a perfectly nice, law abiding and respectful person who happens to be wearing a dress. He might enjoy prancing around and appearing flamboyant (don’t we all sometimes?) He might enjoy wearing dresses because he likes how the cut of them looks on his body type. He might like to wear them because he thinks it’s perfectly ok to wear dresses as long as he isn’t hurting anyone. He might like to wear them because he enjoys fashion (lots of men enjoy fashion) He might like to wear them because some of his friends (male or female) said he would look good in them. He might like to try out wearing dresses out of harmless curiosity. He might like to wear them so that he can help to change the world to be a better place, a place where bullies are stopped in their tracks and that men and women can wear clothes without being hated. So yes, there are lots of logical reasons for men to want to wear a dress.

@bkcunningham Let’s break it down.

“Gender identity disorder is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Metal Disorders as a mental disorder.” – doesn’t mean it is.

“Despite lobbying by the LGBT and others it is still in the manual.” – means even less.

We are the experts, not some mental health providers improperly trained in these matters. I, as a gender non conforming person, am the expert on how I should dress and behave, no one else. This philosophy extends to my children. If either of my sons wanted to wear dresses, they would. Not because I have an agenda to push (besides it being a worthwhile one, anyhow) but because that’s what my child desires and feels is representative of who they are. As a parent and an activist, it would be my responsibility to inform my child that it’s an ignorant world out there and that he will experience insults and hatred. Those are part of life and we would deal with each as it comes. I have enough of the trans community behind me as well as legal and social justice muscle to face any barrier and make absolutely certain that he has his rights to whatever gender expression recognized. I pity the school that would have to face me in this battle.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I agree with everything you have said but what would you do if your dress wearing son came home day after day bloodied and bullied because of it? Say it happened off the school grounds so the school could not be held accountable? How would you handle it?

@rooeytoo Like I would any act of bullying. Find out the who and the why and deal with the parents of that child/those children that did this to my son. I’d file a report with the police, I’d write into a couple of local newspapers – I’d get a couple of people’s advice and when all else fails, I’d wait for it to happen again while watching for who did it and I’d get a hit on that family. Just the knee caps, nothing serious. I really doubt it’d come to that though. And I’d ask my kid whether he would want to take classes in defense or martial arts so that he can feel safer.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You are so right. A bully is a bully and sometimes you have to deal with them and take action against them to try to prevent it. It doesn’t matter whether the kid that was being bullied was wearing a dress or was black or was gay or was a nerd or was a goth, or none of the above.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir sounds like you’ve got it together. More power to you.

@bkcunningham Thank you. I respect you for saying that.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I love your attitude. It is strange though how different it is. I remember once telling my mom that the local bully was waiting for me in the alley on the way home from school. His great threat to girls was that he would pull your underpants down (and since we all had to wear dresses to school, that was a scary threat), with boys he was going to beat them up. My mom said well take a different route home. So I did and if the bully showed up I would run and he was a fat kid so I could easily out run him. I don’t know what she would have done had he ever caught me and carried out his threat. It was a different world though in a small town almost 60 years ago.

@rooeytoo Many parents don’t know what to do in those situations and it scares them to feel helpless so they don’t face it and tell you to ‘take the different route’ home teaching you that avoidance of a problem is a valid solution, when it’s not.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – that is one perspective but I think it was because she subscribed to the theory that “discretion is the better part of valor” and pick your battles!

@rooeytoo You know your mom better, certainly!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, did you face bullying and ignorance because of your feelings as a kid?I didn’t and don’t know anyone who did, either, small city, more powerful teachers, follow all the rules kids. By high school, many of us were peace, love, and rock n’ roll children and sticking up for minorities of any kind was our mantra. Boys and men had long hair and wore skirts but tolerance for the skirts didn’t last. Maybe because hardly anyone did it? I would have taught my son as a 5 yr old if he asked that it would be a wrong thing to do because of intolerance. And I think the mom in this case is a little too proud of herself.

@Facade Well, let’s see: when I was growing up in Azerbaijan, we had to be hidden away in our yard the entire day and my parents had to divorce so that we can get different (Russian) last names because Azerbajani nutjobs were searching for Armenian kids to kill (and they searched them out by last name on school lists). When my family escaped the war and had to run to this little village in Russia, everyone hated us because we were ‘foreigners’ to them and my brother and I had to learn how to be tough plenty fast. Just a couple of years later, we were whisked to America where I was beaten up in my middle school for being that “Immigrant white kid who wears glasses and second hand clothing” – once, they almost broke my nose. My brother got into the Russian mafia for a reason, you know? He eventually went to my middle school with a bat and threatened some of the kids and the rest of the time he walked me to and from school. When I switched schools finally and was figuring out my sexuality, I was bullied in my own building for being ‘fucking bisexual’ but at that time I had friends in the bloods and the crips so they stayed away from me. When I finally got to high school, I was that ‘girl who held hands with other girls and was a science nerd’ and the entire cafeteria made fun of how angry I’d get about the insults. I can go on, if you want. I will NEVER tell my child to not do something because of someone else’s intolerance but it would be their decision if they wanted to stop wearing the dress once they felt it. There are things out there worth risking your liberty and life for because a life of cowardice is a waste.

Sorry, that was mean for @faye

You should write a book that would be required reading in schools and for all parents. Thank you for sharing.

@Kardamom See?! I told you that’s what people tell me to do. :)

Thanks @Simone_De_Beauvoir. It’s outside my realm of life so I can only sympathize and try to understand. I think my hippie upbringing was the right way to live, maybe minus the drugging once you are responsible for kids.

@faye It’s all good now – we’re recreating the hippie life in our household.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You should write a memoir. I’m not normally a reader of memoirs, but I’m suddenly dying to read yours…

@papayalily I really should – I feel like I have a bunch of it written down in diaries and livejournal and in Fluther.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I second the motion for you to write your memoirs. I was riveted just reading the bits you posted a couple of statements above.

If they make a movie out of it, we could ALL wear dresses to the premier :-)

@Kardamom Yay! Can I not wear a dress, though? Can I wear like a Matrix outfit?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I think everybody should wear exactly what they want to wear. That would be perfect! Maybe I’ll try to squeeze into my old figure skating outfit. Yikes!

@Kardamom Love that.

Wow… people doing what they want to do when it has no direct effect on the lives of others.

What a novel concept of liberty.

Oh…wait…that IS liberty. ;-)

Did anyone mention that preferences for male and female dress are dependent upon the culture? Like men in the middle east wear long dress-like garments most of the time. The Scottish men wear kilts, which, to me, look like dresses. In the Pacific islands they wear sarongs.

Another example of how we shouldn’t take preferences as gospel is with color. Right now, blue is male and pick female. But it wasn’t that way as much as 300 years ago.

Dress is just a matter of fashion—popularity. People who say this is how it is and how it must be tend to be conservative. They want things to stay as they are. They don’t want change.

@wundayatta – (yes indeed – I tried).

@wundayatta @iamthemob Good points. It used to be against the law, and then against the rules for women and girls to wear pants. I remember participating in a pants protest against my employer in the 1960’s by wearing pants to work.

Whatever you all say. I still stand by what I said. Other cultures may have male attire simular to a skirt but it is still male attire. If I was a business owner and a male employee was wearing a dress to work. He would find himself fired pretty freaking quick. Im sure most schools would send a male student home for wearing a dress to school and rightfully so. A few may get away with a skirt here and there but a dress? No. Why? Because in most cultures it is considered obscene. A dress is not a pair of jeans or pants. It is designed for the female figure. They don’t make male dresses. They do however make female jeans and pants. Most women don’t wear male pants or jeans.

@Mikewlf337 There is no reason that it would be rightfully so. Clothing norms are arbitrary, they don’t have a sex or a gender, just what we assign to them. And I chose to assign something different to clothes and I, too, stand by what I said. I’m in favor of happier kids rather than kids limited into boxes.

@Mikewlf337 So you’re saying women’s pants were made for women before they started wearing them, and women didn’t/don’t wear men’s pants? That doesn’t even make any sense.

@YARNLADY Appearantly there was a reason why alot of women wanted to wear pants when they were not allowed to. Appearant enough of them wanted to or else they wouldn’t have changed the law. Then after that. They made a lines of female jeans and pants. Women purchase the female lines and not the male lines. Maybe the dresses got in the way of alot of things. Snagged on furniture or whatever. Had to be a reason. Most men wouldn’t be caught dead in a dress.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir The reason why it is right to send a kid home from school because of him wearing a dress is because of schools don’t want him to be a distraction.

@Mikewlf337 I understand some of that – however that is no reason to not question these ridiculous norms to begin with…you know they send black kids home because their natural afros are a distraction…and there was the story of that one native american child who (and it is their tradition, for his tribe) wore his long hair in braids and was sent home for that same ‘distraction’ reason. Kids are naturally distracted and when school administrators take a stand to be supportive and say ‘this is not an issue, we pay it no attention’, the kids will follow.

I am assuming grade school here…why would anyone want to wear a dress to school? From what I see, 99.999% of the kids wear jeans. Do you have any idea how difficult it is on the playground in a dress? (From being a kid in the 60’s, that’s all girls wore and it was a royal pain in the ass…sometimes literally. On a hot slide, for example.) And, as others have said, there is the bullying issue…I just don’t think it’s right to put a five year old on the front lines of your own fight. Now, as they get older, and more and more sure that that’s what they really want to do then at that point they’re fighting their own fight, but with you as back up.

@Mikewlf337 There is a very logical reason that women really wanted to be able to wear pants. Dresses are inconvenient and ridiculous in everyday situations.

@Mikewlf337 – you said this on a thread:

Because they are so disruptive that they get in the way of other students gaining an education. You can’t teach students with some asshole running around school bullying people and fighting with people just because they disagree with them. You can’t teach kids if you have people who constantly harass other students. You have to remove them from the school for a certain period of times and if the person is still disruptive then he/she should be expelled. after the expulsion has expired and they still disbehave in the same manner then the he/she should be permanently removed from that school and be forced to attend another school. Much to the parents dismay because they would have to take the kid to school instead of the kid taking a bus. Then if that doesn’t work the kid should be taken to some sort of reform school where even they can’t get away with saying one word during class. Suspension is not really punishment as much as it is the school finally getting fed up with the student to the point where they say “That’s it, I don’t want to see your face anywhere near this school for a week. Then during the suspension. It is the parents responsibility to make sure he is punished. If it involves excessive bullying then the kid should be told to stay away from the students. As well as being removed from all classes he shares with the student. No student has a right to take a fellow students right to recieve an education without fear of going to school. Suspension is just as it is used to remove certain students who disrupt the school in such a manner that other students can’t learn or are removed from school. When I was in high school only the most disruptive students were suspended or expelled. Usually for fighting, excessive bullying, racial slurs, etc. It is also the parents fault because they have done such a poor job of teaching thier kid proper social interaction. I was bullied in an extremely harsh way during my freshman year in high school and to be hones if he were punished by lashes with a singapore cane in front of the entire student body I would not have felt sorry for him. He was that bad. So removing such a student from the student body to me is justified. Sad part is that most of the student body of my high school during my freshman year liked him and did nothing. If I were the principle or superintendant I would have punished that entire class for that. The guy even pulled a knife out on me and they were just giggling.

Please just think about the above. We should never be on the side of the bully. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Regardless of whether someone should know the trouble certain behavior might get them into with others, we should never argue “they should not complain – they knew what they were getting into.”

I just looked at the link. My thought was…“The things some people will go through to get some attention.” For crying out loud. The kid wants to wear a dress once in a while who cares. But no active, playing kid would want to wear a get-up like that all the time! Maybe for play dress up time, or Halloween, but man…why would they make such a non-issue like that public? You can’t be a “real” kid in a dress.

At our public high school, they apparently DO let boys (or at least the one boy who asked) to wear dresses. And according to the daughter of my friend, the daughter is on the cheer squad with the boy, no one really bugs him about it. They probably tease him a little bit, but the school has a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harrassment. Apparently he’s a really good kid, but he probably has some gender issues and therefore they let him wear dresses because he’s not hurting anyone.

And I happen to be wearing men’s jeans as we speak. I tend to buy men’s jeans because my waist and my hips are about the same size. I don’t have an hour glass figure. I find mens jeans to be much more comfortable and I can rarely find women’s jeans in my size. Lots of girls regularly wear mens/boys Levis 501 jeans and mens Dickies pants. A lot of the teenaged boys around here also wear “girls” pants (not sure what they are called, but they are kind of thick, but stretchy black material that flare out at the ankles, the kind that you see waiters and waitresses wearing.) The boys around here like them because they look really tight and clingy, but they are stretchy and they like to wear them skateboarding and to night clubs. I’ve also seen boys buying skinny “girls” jeans at the thrift store for the same reason.

Nice @Kardamom! Men’s jeans are a lot more comfortable. Men’s everything is a lot more comfortable, including underwear. But women’s clothes are more…flattering so….and so it goes.

Overreacting, even if you think it’s in a “positive” way is always detrimental to a kid. In this particular instance, I think that’s what the mom did. Kid wanted to wear a dress, mom over reacted on the “OMG! Of Course!! You’re so enlightened! WE’RE so enlightened!! Yes!! Wear a dress!!! And I’ll put you on TV!!!!” Hail. The kid may very well have just been testing the waters. It may have been a one time, short lived experiment….except for the over reaction. That’s all I got out of the link, anyway. That and Mom gets her 15 minutes of fame. And the kid probably catches hell at school.

@iamthemob I didn’t do anything to become a target of that bully. If I wore a dress I would have done something to make me a target. I don’t appreciate you scouring fluther to make me look like a hypocrite or to make me look stupid. You are strengthening my choice of not accepting a man in a dress. If you trying to support people who do chose to wear a dress then you are doing a shitty job at it. Pissing people off doesn’t not do you “cause” any good. You will not make me eat my words.

@Mikewlf337 You clearly have some very strong feelings about this. I was wondering if you saw a guy wearing a dress—would that hurt you? What about a boy? If they wanted to and were willing to put up with any consequences, would that hurt you? Would you be the one who is distracted?

Why would you be distracted? Just because it is different? But you see different things every day. They don’t distract you. What is so special about another guy wearing a dress that you would obsess about it? Unless you wouldn’t be distracted, in which case why do you think others would be?

@Mikewlf337 “You are strengthening my choice of not accepting a man in a dress.”- nope, no one is doing that other than you. At the very least you can take responsibility for your beliefs and not blame others for ‘inciting’ you.

No one does anything to become a target of a bully except be who they are. Whatever we do will piss someone off, more than likely. Whether they deserved to be pissed off to a degree that they take it out on the other person is what should be addressed.

Clearly, you did something or were something that made you a target. It could have been something you couldn’t change. But if it was just a trait, then we should never support any action against that person. We might be able to predict it, or understand why it was done – that does not make it acceptable. But as @Simone_De_Beauvoir points out, we are all responsible for our own attitudes – and we are particularly responsible for our own actions to some degree. When we are mocking or degrading another, that’s where that responsibility is solely ours.

I have no illusions that you’ll change your mind, eat your words, etc. I just want you to think about your arguments…and did not scour fluther…I was on that thread and thought the quote was relevant to this one. My point is always the same – the bullies are the one to blame and not the person wearing a dress, regardless of what they might expect to happen.

If you can’t understand that after what you appear to have gone through, I don’t need to make you look like a hypocrite. If your position that it’s the person who wears the dress that has the fault for being bullied is strengthening when shown evidence of how, when it happens to you, you’re against bullying and think that we should rally around the victim – that’s the definition of a hypocrite.

@iamthemob I am no hypocrite. I did not say the guy in the dress deserved to be violently bullied. You assumed I meant that. I said he should expect ridicule. I didn’t say I was condoning it. I said that is almost certainly going to happen and he put the bullseye on himself. Appearantly you can’t see the difference between what I said and what you think I said. Nothing wrong with me saying “No dont wear a dress because it’s for girls” because it is true wether you all like it or not. I am no hypocrite and your are attempting to make me look like a hypocrite in front of others. Trying discredit me because you don’t like my opinion.

“I am not condoning bullying the kid I am just saying that redicule and bullying is something that WILL happen to this kid and with him giving them fuel to do it you can also place the blame on the boy for wearing the dress in the first place and the parents for letting him.”

The above is the problem. You do not blame the boy in the dress. You do not blame the parents. You blame the bully. You blame the person doing the mocking.

There is no excuse for ridiculing someone, or bullying them. The argument you’re making offers and excuse to the only person who is behaving badly. If it is valid in one case where a person looks, acts, or behaves differently in a way that harms no one else (e.g., as in wearing a dress), then it must be a valid excuse for all (e.g., they wear glasses, hand-me-downs, dress according to their culture, etc. – difference generally).

Here’s the difference – you state they should see it coming and therefore should not complain. I say they should see it coming and should complain when it happens. And in the end, it is always the bully who should be the focus of the corrective behavior.

There’s nothing inherently wrong in wearing a dress – i.e., in being different. There is something inherently wrong in being cruel. That’s the lesson I plan to pass on to my kids – and to stand up for something if they think they’re being treated cruelly, wrongly, etc.

@iamthemob I explained everything but to you I must explain over and over again. You do something that is extremely unusual then somebody will make fun of you. And there is something wrong in a man wearing a dress. A DRESS IS FOR WOMEN!. IT WAS INVENTED AND DESIGNED FOR WOMEN!

Oh, capspeak! Fun

@Mikewlf337 – PANTS ARE FOR MEN. THEY WERE INVENTED AND DESIGNED FOR MEN!

There is something wrong with it only because the social order tells you there is. There is nothing inherently wrong, offensive, damaging about a man wearing a dress. That’s it. The use of something by someone other than who it was intended, or for whom it was invented, is not wrong. There must be something damaging about it. That’s it.

So, if there’s nothing else, and it’s just because most people don’t like it, there is no reason that anyone should be privileged in mocking someone for doing it. They don’t have to like it. They may even hate it. But if they decide, in some way, to spew venom about it at the person – it is the person mocking or bullying who is solely at fault.

Again, it seems that if you think it’s wrong, it’s okay to make fun of it. And if most people around you think the same, it’s even more okay. It’s that kind of thinking that gets us into trouble.

That argument is also incompatible with any argument that we should punish bullies. If they have a reason that you think is fine for singling out the person, if it is their opinion…their belief, they should be held less accountable.

You haven’t explained a position. You’ve merely stated it. I’ll state mine, as I think it’s the most reasonable: If you make fun of someone, that’s on you…and you alone. If you bully someone, that’s on you…and you alone. The victim should not bear any responsibility for you (you generally) for acting like an asshole.

Your beliefs are yours. If I want to wear a dress (I don’t, but if I did) I expect you to keep your opinion as you do – but keep it to your own damn self. If you don’t, you should expect to be punished.

@Mikewlf337 When were dresses invented and who invented them?

@iamthemob and I expect you to stay away from me and if you dont you should expect me to tell you to get away from me. How will you punish me? Huh? You going to punish me for voicing my disapproval. You get to express yourself but I can’t express myself?

lol

Punishment in the sense of the school specifically in the OP. But I shouldn’t be the one punishing you – you should be shunned for being hateful by the others around you.

My expression would be about who I am. Your expression would be about how you hate who I am.

Which of those is the one that should be dismissed?

I don’t understand why you’re so afraid of boys in dresses, in the end…I wonder what’s in your closet.

sorry…could not resist that one.

I don’t hate the man in the dress. I hate the fact that he is wearing a dress

I am not afraid of boys in dresses. I don’t approve of it.

There is nothing in my closet except clothes.

I just hope that they’re all gender- and situation-appropriate for all cases where you wear them. God forbid they not be…

Of course they are all gender and situational appropriate I am a person with manners and follow etiquette when I go out in public. I am a man and I dress like one.

@Mikewlf337 What does dressing like a man possibly have with manners and etiquette? Those fields have notoriously been applied to women’s dress and habits.

@Mikewlf337 – A person with manners and etiquette would not mock or bully anyone. Are you sure you are who you say you are?

Who says I will mock or bully anyone. If I told someone to get away from me because the sight of a man in a dress is something I prefer not to see doesn’t make me a bully. I would say nothing more to the man.

I would say that telling someone to “get away” from you is a breach of standard manners and etiquette. It’s rude in and of itself.

I prefer not to see ugly people. I would never tell them to get away from me. Because they have as much right to be where they are as I do.

Perhaps you should read up on manners and etiquette before you claim to have them.

@iamthemob Being ugly (which is depending on who you ask) is not a choice. Wearing a dress in public in a culture which considers a dress strictly a female attire is a choice.

@Mikewlf337 – Going out when you’re ugly is a choice. If I find it offensive, why shouldn’t you just stay at home? Or if you have to go out, at least wear a mask.

And you focus on choice – it is my choice to find something offensive. Or I can learn to let it go. Someone just doing something that has no effect on me – why should I find that offensive? Someone being who they are in a way that has no effect on me – why should I find that offensive? That’s my choice. Not letting it go is my issue…not theirs.

@iamthemob You are trying to make it seem like its alright for a man to wear a dress when it isn’t. You want a man wearing a dress to appear to be acceptable behavior when it isn’t. I don’t care what you all have to say. I am standing behind my views.

@Mikewlf337 let me ask you something please. How many times in your life have you seen a teenaged boy or a man in a dress. Or for that matter a little boy in a dress?

@Mikewlf337 – I’m not saying it’s right. You’re the only one arguing “right” and “wrong” on this front.

I argue it doesn’t make a difference. Who cares? You argue it’s wrong. You have provided no evidence that it’s wrong in that it “does wrong” or is “intrinsically insulting” or “upsetting” in any other way than you just don’t seem to like it and that it’s been that way.

It’s you who has the duty here. All that I’m saying is that I still don’t see why it matters either way.

@Mikewlf337 It isn’t acceptable? It is to me and to many of my friends. Why do you think you’re right and we’re wrong? I also LOVE that you answer none of my questions – if you can’t handle the walk, don’t do the talk, missy!

@Mikewlf337 is just voicing the reality of what might happen to a boy wearing a dress at 6 yrs old. This is a stupid thread and deserves to die. some of you think it’s just ducky and some don’t. And this is not going to change because of reiterated ideas over and over. Some comments ar becoming offensive and attacking.

@faye – I totally disagree. I think that the only reason certain ideas are voiced over and over again is because they might very well need to be.

Thanks a lot for coming into judge – and especially for coming to @Mikewlf337‘s defense. But no – we all already agree that certain things could happen. You coming in and saying the thread is stupid and deserves to die doesn’t make it so. It is, however, incredibly unproductive.

@faye Thanks for understanding what I have been trying to say from the start. You are alright however this thread has to die because it is going nowhere. Like you said earlier. Just a bunch of whining about how it should be

@iamthemob Productive? Productive to you is when everyone in this thread agrees with you. You fail to see that human beings are naturally cruel and if they see some guy in a dress they will ridicule him. On top of that after I disagreed with you. You pointed out my misspellings and grammar errors. You then looked up post I have made on other threads and copied and pasted them on this thread to make me look like a hypocrite. Then when I confronted you with it. You smugly said that I made myself look like a hypocrite. Without understanding what I meant in my posts you cannot jumped to conclusions about me. Then you said I should be shunned by others for being hateful. I wasn’t hateful when I said I don’t approve of a man wearing a dress and that I don’t wish to be around one. It seems to me that when someone disagrees with you. You put great effort to discredit them and make them look bad.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir The reason I did not answer your question is because You started mocking me. You started laughing at what I said and mocking me when I typed in all caps it It means you didn’t take a word I said seriously and that you really don’t care what I have to say.

Some of you may not believe in gender specific clothing or whatever but it does exist. You may like to pretend that it doesn’t just so can tell yourself that a man wearing a dress is completely normal and should be accepted but it doesn’t change the fact that gender specific clothing does exist.

I am going to unfollow this question because it is going nowhere. you all don’t care what I have to say so why even bother. It is no use speaking your mind when those you are arguing with are mocking your posts.

@Mikewlf337 Sometimes mocking is all that’s left when dealing with close-mindedness. You’re the one who keeps saying over and over ‘I’m stuck in this idea, you can’t change anything I think’ so why even bother? I agree that gender specific clothing does exist but it doesn’t have to, it’s not inherent and we’re the ones capable of stopping bullying around this matter. @faye You should have talked about unnecessary attacks dozens of posts ago when @Mikewlf337 said so many transphobic things without even knowing it that two different people PMed me about how upset they were at his insensitive comments. But thanks. And for the record, this thread isn’t stupid – it was an excellent question, a wonderful platform to clarify people’s discomfort with the topic.

Dresses were invented specifically FOR women? I understand what you’re saying on all of this @Mikewlf337…except for that. In other culture men wear what we would consider skirts. Short skirts at that! If they were designed specifically FOR women, I would say a man designed them with the idea of “quick and easy access” in mind, because dresses serve no useful, functional value what so ever.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Well said. Rarely do I resort to this type of mocking. In fact, it’s simply a last resort. And I agree that this thread is important in discussing the extreme level of not discomfort, but worse, that people have over the one thing that I think is very…very stupid in this thread – a piece of cloth.

I’ll take everything that @Mikewlf337 throws at me on this one, not because he disagrees with me, but because the position he takes is 100% wrong. We’ve all agreed “this is how the world is” but he seems to think that there’s a “right” and “wrong” here. I personally am glad that he has unfollowed the thread – but I think that in order to unfollow it…he would have actually had to be following it and responding to questions to him and arguments made to him in the first place. He wasn’t.

That’s his story…and he’s sticking to it.

PS – it appears that Western mini-dresses were actually invented for men in the Fourteenth Century:

However, in the second half of the century, courtiers are often shown, if they have the figure for it, wearing nothing over their closely tailored cotehardie. A French chronicle records: “Around that year (1350), men, in particular noblemen and their squires, took to wearing tunics so short and tight that they revealed what modesty bids us hide. This was a most astonishing thing for the people.”

It seems men in those times weren’t afraid to show a little leg.

@iamthemob Yeah, but the point is, the guys were still able to RUN if they needed to! You can’t really run in a long dress.

And check out the GAMS when they do run. ;-)

I think I should try to bring gams back.

No, @iamthemob! Just leave that one alone!!! (I can see it…everyone is running hell-bent for higher ground because a Tsunami is coming! And iamthemob is yelling….“Look at the gams on that guy up there!!!” LOL!!)

@iamthemob @Simone_De_Beauvoir You two sound intolerant to me, about people who don’t believe as you do. I read attacks from both of you towards mike. Some people may be offended by your beliefs, just not so vocal. Everyone believes their belief is right, right? and mine was one of the first posts if you want to go back and I did defend Mike posts and posts ago. Reality is one thing right now, you and many others may change it. For now I protect my little boy from making a poor choice.

@iamthemob It does strike me as odd (and sick and scary) that one man can get so upset and think he is being dis-respected by a piece of random and arbitrary piece of cloth (a dress) and that he believes that it is another man’s destiny to be bullied and belittled and scorned and shunned and told to “get away” because he might wear a dress.

I would be afraid to be around that man because he might scream at me for doing all sorts of things like wearing men’s 501 jeans, or wearing 1 or 2 or no earrings, or having a tatoo of a flower on my ankle or having a tatoo of a skull on my arm, or having purple hair, or wearing a red or a blue garment, or going outside with curlers in my hair, or chewing gum, or ordering a veggie burger, or driving a prius, or drinking fair trade coffee, or dancing with a gay friend at a wedding, or not shaving my legs or pits, or trying to save the whales. All of these are activities that we fluthers participate in (which may or may not be controversial) and I doubt if any of us do them to piss off this particular man or to dis-respect him or to harm him.

A man wearing the dress is not going to make the sky fall or make civilization disappear or prevent the second coming of Christ. I would be much more afraid of some psycho running around with a gun then some poor dude wearing a dress.

@faye I’ll ask you the same thing I asked Mike and he didn’t answer. How many times in your life have you seen a teenaged boy or a man in a dress. Or for that matter a little boy in a dress?

@faye – The idea that we sound intolerant in this context is, pardon me, obscene. At no point did I argue that @Mikewlf337 shouldn’t have his opinion. At no point did I say that he shouldn’t express it. As the first poster, and in subsequent ones, I stated that I wouldn’t want to do it but would support my kid with proper warning. And I get why people wouldn’t want to do it – and that’s up to them.

But @Mikewlf337 consistently argued that it was right to make fun of someone for this. That they should expect it and had no right to complain about it. That’s, again pardon me, sick. No one should consider that right, especially for something so stupid. I would hope that if you stopped your kid from doing it, you would in turn punish him for making fun of someone for doing it.

Throughout, I’ve said there is only one villain, and one person responsible here: the person doing the mocking. The bully. If we can’t agree that that’s the person we need to focus on…well, you’re right. That’s an assertion I can’t tolerate.

Neither of us have any misconceptions about what reality is like. And I’ll tell you, if my son wanted to do this, again, I’d tell him that he was in for some shit. I’d probably say “okay – but you also are starting some weight training and self-defense classes.” WE know people are dicks. But I’m not going to say that it’s the victims fault. Ever. Even if they were asking for it. Violence, whether it’s physical or emotional, is again something that I won’t tolerate. Unfortunately, in this instance I had to use what I consider to be violence to hammer that point home.

@Kardamom – I know right? I feel like I need to start wearing dresses now, cause this shit is bananas. B…a-n-a-n-a-s.

@bkcunningham In an earlier post I noted I grow up late ‘60 and early ‘70’s. Guys I went to school with wore long skirts – 16 and 17 year olds, and a couple carried it into once in a while in college. But everyone might, gawd, might agree long skirts are inconvenient, it died out by itself.

@faye Yeah, I’m the intolerant one. Makes sense. You can do whatever you want with your boy, no one is forcing you to do anything you don’t want. So can the mother in the OP’s question and that boy too should wear whatever he wants. I would never say it’s a ‘poor choice’ to allow your children to be who they want to be. Finally, negative responses to someone’s very obsessive discomfort with men wearing dresses isn’t intolerance, it is doing what’s right so that this kind of cultural thinking isn’t perpetuated. Perhaps you are not around the many people who are constantly affected by this kind of opinion in their lives. Lucky you.

I love that “Live and let live” is an intolerant position all of a sudden.

Did I have a stroke?

@iamthemob No, it’s the good old ‘intolerance of intolerance is hypocrisy’ song – it’s so old, its new again. Like retro-chic.

Not only is the idea that dresses and skirts are female clothes historically wrong, it makes no sense to me. Male genitals hang. Female genitals do not. Why the hell would I want restrictive fabric there?

I love my kilt. It even has pockets.

(It helps if you wear underwear @incendiary_dan)!

@Dutchess_III – no true scotsman wears underwear under his kilt!

I am…so…excited…to actually have a chance to use the “no true scotsman” argument when it is not an intentional fallacy.

@Dutchess_III Why would I wear underwear, kilt or not? Like I said, I don’t think restrictive fabric is a good thing.!

@iamthemob GA! Even as a student of logic, that one was new to me. Well, the name for it anyway.

@incendiary_dan, @Dutchess_III – you guys deserve so much of the credit for the set-up.

I’m getting very disconcerting images of Scotspersons dancing about and playing their flute…I prefer to watch the show standing up, thank you. :)

@incendiary_dan a handsome man in a kilt is one of the most marvelous sights in the world. I don’t think anyone would scream or tell a kilted man to “get away from me”. Just the opposite. ; – )

I think more men should wear skirts and dresses, so this whole problem with people being offended would just stop. Maybe we should do like they do on Star Trek and have everybody wear all sorts of interesting garb. I always appreciated Captain Picard’s formal “dress” wear he wears a long tunic like garment that kind of looks Indian. Love that!

But….I just don’t know about the free and easy part @Kardamom. I mean, what if you’re walking beside a pond in Florida and an alligator sees what it thinks is a tasty treat….GET THESE PICTURES OUT OF MY MIND SOMEONE!!!!

@Dutchess_III I don’t know whether to respond “That’s why I never go to Florida” or “It’s not just alligators that view it as a tasty treat.” :P

@incendiary_dan – Although they’re both out there, I would have voted for #2.

Hi…larious.

@incendiary_dan Just make sure not to get too close to those dogs that were loose at the Fluther Xmas party mansion in December! One of them ate one of my tofu weiner appetizers!

@Kardamom – That dog was just environmentally conscious. I don’t think it was any sort of fetish on its part….

@Kardamom & @iamthemob – ^ those 2 answers should go in the hall of fame! I am amazed you haven’t been modded, but hopefully many more jellies will have a laugh before you do. GA’s to you both!

@rooeytoo It’s in Social. It’s all good.

And yes, I would allow my son to wear a dress if he wanted to. And if I had a son in the first place.

@augustlan – wow, I didn’t recognize you in your new outfit! Very classy!!!

I just switched back! See here for an explanation. :)

I told you to NEVER CHANGE.

now I’m mad atchoo.

@iamthemob Doesn’t quite match my usual benevolent personality! Sorry. :(

You are a Nazi Auggie!!!!!

<cries>

…No! I was kidding, @augustlan! You’re the bestest Allie in the whole world!!

OK….I have to insert something here that’s sort of on topic.
When my daughter was in 2nd grade, in the mid 80’s, she got this totally wild hair of an idea what she wanted to wear to school one day….and when I saw what it was I was floored! I have a picture somewhere, but a written description shall have to suffice
It was a 20-year-old, home-made pink dress with white polka dots that my mother had made for me in the 60’s when I was about in 2nd grade. It was clean, but obviously old and the hem was coming out. For accent my 2nd grader choose grey, knee length jock-socks with purple stripes around the top. The gaudy grey and purple-striped jock socks came just below the hem of the dress. Over those she choose to wear some soft grey suede, ankle-length boots. It was a horror!!! A horror I tell you! But she was adamant. The more adamant I got that “No way are you leaving the house in that!!” The more adament she got that she WAS going to wear this, and she didn’t care if it was to a Presidential Dinner! Tempers got high, tears started flowing…then I stopped and said, “Hey…Val. It’s a dress. It’s just clothing for crying out loud. Is it really worth this emotion—the pain and anger? .... No.” So, I gave in…and soon saw the humor in it. That’s when I said, “OK. But I have to take a picture!” I’ll find it someday and post it. It was ghastly! (I was actually concerned that I might get a call from the school…but I didn’t…)
But..that was that. She tried various experiments over the course of the next week (nothing was as bad as the original, though!) trying to push my buttons again…but I had removed said buttons! And, it wasn’t long before it all blew away gently and we got back to normal.
Now, if I’d held my ground I’m sure all of it would have escalated and escalated…just like creating food and eating issues. It would have gone on and on instead of finally, quietly disappearing.
I still maintain that the woman in the article above probably over reacted, which is ALWAYS bad. But since she over reacted in an ‘enlightened’ way, she figured it was OK. To write a book and put the kid on TV for crying out loud??
Humph!

@Dutchess_III That doesn’t honestly sound like a horror to me. My girls had some color combinations! And those Hammer pants! My son loved those, too.

Funny – this issue was just covered on What Would You Do?

Well…I was kind of new at all of that. It was only my 2nd year of sending a kid to school and Things Must Be Proper! Today….I wouldn’t bat an eye!