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CaptainHarley's avatar

Are you a Quantum Activist?

Asked by CaptainHarley (22389 points ) March 20th, 2011

Can you change the world by realizing that consciousness came first, before matter? Visionary physicist Amit Goswami has come up with some very radical ideas about what he calls “Quantum Activism.” This seems to build on the work of Fritjof Capra ( Among many others ), and is summarized in the movie The Quantum Activist. You can see two trailers on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO9N4Ix9Ny0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDi24IfILZ0

I’d love to know what you think of this!

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106 Answers

filmfann's avatar

Watched both trailers. I’m not running out to buy tickets.
I would need to know a LOT more about what idea he is presenting.

Summum's avatar

He is on target. We come from a place that intellegence exists and we have no way of altering what we are or how, who or what things become until we are given that chance to begin a training program that includes this life which is the very first obstical in our path, I wish I could tell more on the subject but I am told to constrain myself and wait because it is up to us to find the answers.

Summum's avatar

I am elated that someone found such a being as to question our existance and to have us look into deeper meaning. Thanks @CaptainHarley I do appreciate the effort.

Summum's avatar

This person Amit Goswami has found many of the answers of the mysteries of God and he is only trying to show some of what they mean. Listen to him and open your minds it is for real.

CaptainHarley's avatar

It resonates with me because I am a great fan of Fritjof Capra, the author of The Web of Life, among other books. I have read The Web of Life from cover to cover several times. I have come to the conclusion that consciousness links all humans ( and perhaps all life ) at the quantum level. Dr. Goswami’s postulate that quantum correlations enable communication without message carriers seems to me to be right on target.

Summum's avatar

It is right on target and we can communicate to all life forms.

CaptainHarley's avatar

No WONDER my cat sometimes hisses at me! LOL!

Fyrius's avatar

“In quantum physics, objects are not determined things, objects are possibilities. Possibilities of what? Possibilities for consciousness to choose from.”
If I’m not mistaken, in quantum physics particles are present as probabilities, not options. Is this man saying god is the one deciding which particle goes where?

“There is very definite scientific evidence for the existence of god.”
Sequence of religious images
Implying that not only does there exist a suspiciously humanoid cosmic superintelligence, but the religions’ unsupported guesses about him were somehow right, too
That seems a bit like jumping to conclusions there, partner.

Well, let’s be open-minded. Let’s ask that one question that can establish or condemn this idea.

If you apply this in the real world in properly controlled tests, does it actually work?

I’ll be waiting for an answer – if this film is worth a scientific damn, it must address this question. In the meantime, I’m going to read what Michael Shermer has to say about it.

@Summum
You’re doing it again. Presenting your beliefs as facts. We’ve talked about this.
Last time I asked you to back up what you seemed to consider established facts, you had nothing more to present than “it’s my experience” and “my opinion is just as valid as yours”. Unless you’ve found evidence and arguments in the intervening time, I’m going to ask you again to show proper modesty and amend your statements with “I think” or “it is my belief that”.

incendiary_dan's avatar

Sounds like the same ‘magical thinking’ bullshit that keeps people from affecting real change and letting privileged people pretend that those below them are there because of some personal flaw or fault.

Summum's avatar

@Fyrius I feel for you because I have found that bridge that brings things to an understanding beyond what most men cannot see. I’m very sorry that you have not built that bridge but continually commenting on my comments will not bring it for you. Until you see things as I can and do you will not understand and you will constantly reject the obvious. I pray that you find that in your life. I will never amend my statements they are what they are.

Qingu's avatar

This is bullshit.

@CaptainHarley, do you even know anything about quantum mechanics?

@Summum, nobody on Fluther believes anything you say about your magical experiences with your cult (or religious tradition, or whatever). It’s beyond annoying at this point.

Summum's avatar

@Qingu there there now life is so frustrating isn’t it…

Summum's avatar

@Qingu I beg to differ with you because I get many IMs that say different. And in fact @Qingu I get many that say you are wrong what do you say to that?

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Fyrius's avatar

@Summum
If this “bridge” you believe in is really there, it would seem that the most regrettable thing is that you refuse to help me see it. It would be easy for you to help me see it: you know I’m a sceptic, so simply give me some evidence and I’ll start believing immediately. If it really exists, evidence of its existence must be trivially easy to come by.

But if you’re wrong and I’m right, there seems to be nothing I can say to even open up your mind far enough to slip in an iota of doubt.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear to you, @Summum. I’m not the closed-minded one here. I can be reasoned with. If the truth is on your side, I will yield to you the moment I realise it is.
What does it take for you to yield?

And please, stop posting three one-liners in a row. It clutters up every thread you’re in.
You can edit your posts, you know. If you suddenly realise you have something else to say, add it to your previous post.

Summum's avatar

I don’t refuse to allow anyone to see anything where did that come from? No it is not easy it takes a human being that is ready to recieve and look that is NOTHING I control and can do. It is very hard to come by because you have to do something to find it. Open your heart and mind that is what it takes. It has nothing at all to do with me so me yeilding will help nothing at all. It takes you the person and how much you want to know. I hope that nothing I do is arrogant and if it is then I will appologize from my view it is you that constantly takes up with what I say not the other way around.

The_Idler's avatar

@Summum Stop being so arrogant, it is tiresome.

I’m interested in what everyone has to say, so long as it doesn’t involve them purporting to know the deepest secrets of a Universe. You are a mote of dust with a conscious lifetime of about 0.0000004% of the age of this Universe so far.
You. Are. Nothing.

I mean, get fucking real, think about how big and old just this Universe is, and then think about how tiny and transient your existence is, and then think about how absurdly arrogant the idea of you having deep, accurate, fundamental knowledge and understanding of the cosmos is.

Summum's avatar

@The_Idler Thankyou but I don’t see myself or you as nothing. We are life and we belong to it. I’m sorry but my existance is the UNIVERSE and everything it is and why it is.

flutherother's avatar

Soothing music, nice images, words that slip quietly into our minds. It is an advert and I distrust advertising and advertising slogans. I agree with what @Fyrius had to say eleven posts up.

Qingu's avatar

@Summum, I constantly badger you because you are a fraud. You continually assert extraordinary, magical things and then you fail to provide a shred of evidence to support your claims. I don’t know to what extent you realize your own fraudulence and I suspect, like many cultists, part of your brain believes its own bullshit.

Nobody believes you, and nobody is interested in joining your cult. Perhaps you should try airport lobbies instead of Fluther.

Summum's avatar

@Qingu Not one thing that I assert is magical not one thing, it is what it is. How can one show any evidence to another that will not see anything but what they believe? I would totally disagree with you in the fact that I don’t know what I’m talking about in that many IM me and say they do understand and know for themselves. Why am I such a threat to you @Qingu it is really showing because you constantly have to comment on what I have experienced and I will not give in because I know for a fact what I have experienced and nothing you can say or do will change that.

Qingu's avatar

You’ve claimed to have spoken to several dead people. Including, iirc, the victims of a car accident, and the founder of your cult.

That’s magic, hun.

And you’re not a threat to me. I respond to you in exactly the same way as I respond to everyone on Fluther who repeatedly makes nonsensical and unevidenced claims.

Summum's avatar

That is totally true and why do you not believe that? But my claims are not nonsensical nor unevidenced many there are that see these things. Many write about it and talk about it. I have no cult nor any believers and am not looking for any just stating my experiences and I have never expected anyone to believe or not to believe I have always and still do say “Find our for yourselves”.

Fyrius's avatar

@Summum
I keep bugging you about the things you say because you keep spreading what a reasonable person can only think of as false information. I also take offence at various rude things you keep doing, including ignoring arguments that people who still take your seriously took the time and effort to construct, and projecting your sense of being threatened onto other people.

Of course, it’s all a futile endeavour:

“How can one show any evidence to another that will not see anything but what they believe?”
You just summed up the problem of trying to talk to you.

Qingu's avatar

Why don’t I believe you spoke to dead people?

Why the fuck would anyone believe you spoke to dead people?

Seriously. Do you honestly expect people to believe that you, Random Internet Person, have spoken to the dead just because you say you did?

Would you also get surprised when people express doubt that you’ve been to Mars, or that you can move things with your mind?

The_Idler's avatar

@Summum

I’m not even taking issue with what you claim to know, I’m just bemused by the fact that you think you can know anything at all, with regards to the fundamental nature of the cosmos. You are almost certainly no more than a speck of dust. To claim knowledge of the cosmos’ deepest secrets is sheer arrogance.

Whatever your experiences, they’re just going on inside your head. What makes you think they have anything to do with reality? Who the fuck are you to say?

Summum's avatar

Both of you cannot understand unless you have done so. I have talked with others that have died because there is life after this one. There is no magic nothing that is mystical is is what it is. No I do not expect anyone to believe me I expect others to find for themselves as I have always stated.

The_Idler's avatar

@Summum Well hurry up and pass the fucking joint.

Summum's avatar

Again it comes down to calling names and saying things that are not worth the effort because I pose a threat to you. Sorry but I have no control over that at all.

The_Idler's avatar

You don’t want me to call you @Summum?

Summum's avatar

I have never said I’ve been to Mars or could move things with my mind. LOL

The_Idler's avatar

@Summum Yeah, that’d just be totally ridiculous, right?

Qingu's avatar

@Summum, you don’t pose a threat to anyone.

The reason people don’t believe you is not because they feel threatened. It’s because they think that you are as full of shit as your average televangelist.

I realize you never said those things, but imagine if I did. Imagine I said I’ve been to Mars. Then, when someone asks how this is even possible, my response is simply “You wouldn’t understand since you’ve never experienced it.” Would you believe me? I certainly hope not.

Summum's avatar

I understand you trying to protect your nature and what you believe but it won’t change what is the truth. Until you can find it you will be this way. I hope that you can open your hearts and minds and search, look and find.

The_Idler's avatar

I tried that, not working, any tips?

Summum's avatar

Yes keep on trying that is my tip.

Qingu's avatar

Stop projecting this as us feeling threatened. You are not even close to the looniest or scariest person I’ve talked to on Fluther (that would probably be the holocaust denier guy, fyi).

Summum's avatar

Maybe not but I surely wouldn’t come against you for saying so.

coffeenut's avatar

I’ve heard nothing but bad things about this “movie”.....

Summum's avatar

I am who I am and Nothing you say or do can change that I know what I have seen and experienced and when asked I will share.

Summum's avatar

You wouldn’t come at me the way you do without being threatened what for? It is only a threat that causes another to be so strong in opposition to others otherwise it doesn’t matter.

The_Idler's avatar

relentless assertions!
why bother?
good night…

Fyrius's avatar

Oh geez, look at this thread. It’s completely derailed now. And I have a feeling that I’m the one who started it.
I’m sorry, @CaptainHarley.

Qingu's avatar

Summum, I see your claims much like how I see (and react to) homeopathy claims.

Homeopathy is bullshit. It is fraudulent, and people profit from homeopathic remedies by appealing to people’s gullibility. If you came on Fluther promoting homeopathy based only on your personal experiences, I would (and have) do the same.

As it is, you are coming here and promoting your cult, albeit in a roundabout fashion. So, I am pointing out that your claims are unevidenced bullshit.

If you don’t want people to question and criticize your unevidenced claims, don’t make them in a public space.

Summum's avatar

All I can say is I am what I am and if you have a problem with that it is your problem alone. Sorry CaptainHarley I do respect you and all that you give to others.

I will make any claim at all I see as a claim and there is NOTHING you can do or say or react to that will change that. If you feel that threatened then leave me alone.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Summum's avatar

Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn. LOL @Thammuz And who are you????

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
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The_Idler's avatar

@Fyrius Yeah I’m ignoring him from now.
Either a troll or just mental, and not even the good kind of either.

Summum's avatar

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!

Thammuz's avatar

@Fyrius Seconded, ignoring him full on from now on. Let’s see how he likes his own medicine.

Fyrius's avatar

Whatever, @Summum.

Summum's avatar

I’m so sick of you people that think you know it all and you act and come across as if you do. When someone else brings up a different point of view you call it wrong and not possible. Who the hell do you think you are. I know for a fact those things in my life that have happened and it really doesn’t matter if the whole world doesn’t believe because I KNOW and there is nothing that can change that. I have had the experiences I have stated that I have had and it doesn’t make a difference if you cannot understand or see that. You are arrogant and self perpetuating and you are your own rewarders. Life is not just one way and things do not happen in a shell that science can expect and understand. It is outside the ability of science to even try and understand. If you want to really and truely understand this life then listen and quit trying to upset a different way of things.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@Summum the problem is, when us others “brings up a different point of view” we also back it up with supporting evidence. You on the other hand, do not. Thus we deny it. Come back with some sound evidence and then we’ll talk.

Summum's avatar

@uberbatman I respect that but there is no evidence for things that are beyond this science or our understanding. There are things that happen in life that no one can explain. These things are real and they have deep meaning and I have never once expected anyone to either believe or understand. All I have ever said is find out for yourselfs, look, question, seek, search, knock, look beyond what you understand and there is an answer and it is available to all and unless you seek you will not find. That is all…

El_Cadejo's avatar

@Summum I am one who needs evidence in order to believe. And in your understanding of us not believing a word of what you say, you bitch at us for not believing a word in which you say…..

Summum's avatar

I have never bitched and if fact have stated that no one person needs to believe me… I have always advocated finding information for oneself. So what you say has no bearing on things.

Summum's avatar

If you always need evidence that is too bad because most of life has no evidence there is but very little.

CaptainHarley's avatar

Well all rightie then. Kind of stirred up a storm of controversy with all this, eh? Such was not intentional, but it’s ok. Gave a few of the ranters among us an opportunity to vent. : )

@Summum… I can’t say I believe as you do, but for some reason @Qingu seems to hate what I have to say as much as he hates what you have to say, so that’s at least one thing we have in common. : ))

Summum's avatar

@CaptainHarley Sorry I really didn’t intend on this going on the way it did.

CaptainHarley's avatar

It’s ok. : ))

ETpro's avatar

Let’s see, Amit Goswami says God cannot be talked about in scientific terms. Then he goes on to assert that “There is very definite scientific evidence for the existence of God.” without bothering to tell us what that evidence is. What could possibly be wrong with logic like that?

syz's avatar

Holy shit, it’s like the twilight zone in here.

CaptainHarley's avatar

@ETpro

Did you watch the entire movie yet? Hmmmmm??

ETpro's avatar

@CaptainHarley No, just the two trailers you posted links to. Is the movie available online, or must I go to a theater to see it? I found his website but don’t want to go out and buy a copy of his film. I might see if the Boston Public Library.

CaptainHarley's avatar

NetFlix has it on instant view, if you have a membership there.

ETpro's avatar

@CaptainHarley Have you watched it? If so, is it worth the cost? I’m put off by the fact that the good doctor so clearly contradicts himself right within the trailer he made to sell his movie.

hiphiphopflipflapflop's avatar

The Tao of Physics was completed in December 1974, and the implications of the November Revolution one month earlier that led to the dramatic confirmations of the standard-model quantum field theory clearly had not sunk in for Capra (like many others at that time). What is harder to understand is that the book has now gone through several editions, and in each of them Capra has left intact the now out-of-date physics, including new forewords and afterwords that with a straight face deny what has happened. The foreword to the second edition of 1983 claims, “It has been very gratifying for me that none of these recent developments has invalidated anything I wrote seven years ago. In fact, most of them were anticipated in the original edition,” a statement far from any relation to the reality that in 1983 the standard model was nearly universally accepted in the physics community, and the bootstrap theory was a dead idea… Even now, Capra’s book, with its nutty denials of what has happened in particle theory, can be found selling well at every major bookstore. It has been joined by some other books on the same topic, most notably Gary Zukav’s The Dancing Wu-Li Masters. The bootstrap philosophy, despite its complete failure as a physical theory, lives on as part of an embarrassing New Age cult, with its followers refusing to acknowledge what has happened.

- Peter Woit (2006), Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law, Basic Books, ISBN 978–0465092758, p. 141–145.
(Quote and reference from the Wikipedia page for The Tao of Physics)

And a pretty damning take on the whole idea underpinning bootstrap theory can be found here.

hiphiphopflipflapflop's avatar

@CaptainHarley let me say I feel a bit “taken in” as I bought this book myself some years back, as well as the sequel, though I set both aside as they seemed very “hand-wavey” to me.

I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in the topic of quantum theory but feels their science background might not be up to the challenge to least look into these two books:

1. The Cosmic Code by Heinz Pagels
2. The Second Creation by Crease and Mann

The first has the clearest exposition of the essential concepts behind relativity and quantum field theory that I have yet come across. The second is an engrossing history of the interplay between theory and experiment from Becquerel’s discovery of radioactivity to the firm establishment of the standard model in the late 1970’s as written by a journalist and a historian/philosopher of science.

CaptainHarley's avatar

Sorry, but the book I referenced is The Web of Life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra

AdamF's avatar

New age nonsense dressed up in a labcoat and trying desperately to sound sciency.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/the-myth-of-quantum-consc_b_788798.html

CaptainHarley's avatar

@AdamF

Well, Adam, I have no idea what YOUR background is, nor do I know why you feel threatened by this sort of approach, but I daresay you don’t have two PhD’s as Dr. Capra does ( One in physics and one in biology ). At the end of the day, I would probably take his word before yours on this matter.

The_Idler's avatar

@CaptainHarley
This is philosophy and spirituality, not much to do with what you learn in the study of Physics…

Fyrius's avatar

Can we stop randomly accusing people of feeling threatened?
Not only is it almost never true, and not only is it a far too easy and far too satisfying way to dismiss people, it’s also pretty rude.

By the way, if you’re going to take other people’s word for things, did you also read what Michael Shermer had to say about it?

Being highly educated is, unfortunately, no guarantee that you won’t dive headfirst into sufficiently appealing pipe dreams. In fact, scientific practise encourages adopting unusual ideas and seeing if you can defend them. Science is a system where huge numbers of researchers all keep each other’s ideas in check, so that the crazy ideas are weeded out, or at least they don’t become widespread.
So it would be wise to beware of shiny films about one man’s revolutionary new ideas that will usher a new era in science, directed by the guy himself. Wait to hear what his colleagues have to say about this stuff before you believe it.

It’s actually pretty arrogantly irresponsible for this guy to even be making shiny films about cutting edge original research.

Fyrius's avatar

P.S. On the same subject, here’s a heading from this film’s website.

“join the revolution going on in science.”

Laypeople have no business getting involved with scientific revolutions. We don’t have the expertise to judge whether this idea is valid or a crazy pipe dream. We can only judge it based on how strongly it appeals to our vanity to believe that we (i.e. conscious beings) are the most important thing in the universe.
Scientific controversies have to be settled by the scientists. They’re the only ones who can be trusted with such things.
The fact that this man won’t wait for that to happen is suspicious to say the least. If he were confident that the evidence is in his favour, he could afford to wait for his fringe idea to become a commonly accepted theory. Instead, he’s quickly getting it out to the impressionable laypeople, where the meme can spread relatively unchallenged.

CaptainHarley's avatar

If some of you responding to this question AREN’T threatened by it somehow, why do you begin foaming at the mouth and gnawing on the rug whenever the subject is brought up? All of the people I have quoted are scientists!

AdamF's avatar

@CaptainHarley Oh I’m terribly sorry.

It’s just that when someone ends their post with “I’d love to know what you think of this!”, I for some reason assume that they actually mean that they’d “love to know what people think” of it, and are honestly seeking open criticism of whatever point they’re raising. Gee, how presumptuous of me.

That said, my background is irrelevant. What matters in science is evidence, not titles.

If the author had one sausage of evidence to support his extraordinary claims, he’d publish in a peer reviewed journal, and if correct, other independent scientists would collaborate his findings, and he’d become the most famous physicist since Newton or Einstein. As it is, he’s targeting a soft audience, and hence deserves a healthy dose of skepticism. If a scientist isn’t willing to get in the ring and test the strength of their evidence against those who know enough to nail them, then that should be ringing whatever alarm you have in your head for identifying bullshit.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It’s quite simple really.

And by the way, if titles impress you so much, then Im surprised you’re not at the very least sitting on the fence, as the link I provided is by a physics prof.

P.S. you may want to look up “style over substance” fallacy.

Fyrius's avatar

@CaptainHarley
Would you point out to me exactly which users have reacted like you describe, while replying to your question?

As I recall, the most polemic replies have called the notion “bullshit”. Things to that effect have been said twice or so. And frankly, given the subject’s credibility, I wouldn’t even call that overreacting.
The other replies have been quite level-headed. I’ve seen no rug-gnawing and no foaming at the mouth in reply to your question.

There has been some flaming going back and forth between @Summum and some other users, me included, but that wasn’t on the subject of this film.

Thammuz's avatar

@CaptainHarley If some of you responding to this question AREN’T threatened by it somehow, why do you begin foaming at the mouth and gnawing on the rug whenever the subject is brought up?
Personally, and I’m speaking for myself and myself only, I don’t like science being shat on and used as a cloak to hide your bullshit behind in order to make money. You can (claim to) be a scientist all you fucking want, and you can still be a greedy morally bankrupt fraud who’s good at parlour tricks. I can assure you that the simple fact that he starts with “objects are possibilities” makes all sorts of bullshit alerts go off in my head. Why? Because possibility != probability, and anyone who’s ever opened a book about statistics knows this.

Furthermore because this is exactly the kind of bullshit that “The secret” tried to peddle already, with moderate success amongst the high-on-cash-low-on-brains demographics in the US, managing to get support from dumb cunts like Oprah and Ellen DeGeneres (Two people whose success i still can’t swallow) only dressed up in a lab-coat. I’d love to see these people choose not to get hit by a truck, not to have cancer and not to die the day we finally deem fraud a capital offence.

And to put the fucking cherry on top: it’s all unfalsifiable and easily believed by the single gullible individual. I call major league bullshit.

All of the people I have quoted are scientists!
In the sense that they have PhDs, yes. Fritjof Capra has fuckall to do with quantum physics (according to wikipedia, which is as far as I’m willing to go to debunk this obvious bullshit, to be honest) and mister Amit Goswami Is a teacher of theoretical physics. This just for the record.

Should i care? No. Because the mere fact that one is a scientist has no bearing on his claims and, since you claim you know something about science, you should know better than suggest so. Being a scientist doesn’t mean you’re right, it means you’ve been trained in the scientific method. Whether you use it and use it properly is entirely another matter, and it’s clearly not the case with mister Goswami since he bases his whole theory (with massive sarcastic quote marks) on an unfalsifiable assumption that defies Occam’s razor and is in direct opposition to everything the scientific method stands for, namely that consciousness came first and that reality is strictly subjective. Which is funny because he claims this to be a scientific position, but the scientific method can only work assuming that reality is objective, making this a self defeating point.

I can list off several reasons why a scientist could say something like this: To make a quick buck off the gullible, to feel he’s actually accomplished something in his 32 years of teaching, to push forward his favourite ethical and moral model surreptitiously, to calm down his internal debate on whether his unscientific beliefs are justified, because he’s genuinely convinced, for shits and giggles or a mix of any given number of the above. None of these reasons mean he’s right, he’s human, like the rest of us, he can be wrong, that’s why we have experiments and that’s why scientists don’t need to ask people to believe them on their word.

If Mr Goswami is seriously convinced that reality is subjective, I suggest he jump straight in front of a speeding truck. If it is subjective he’ll survive but he will be dead to me, if it isn’t he’ll be dead, to me and to the world. Either way I won’t have to listen to this shit.

CaptainHarley's avatar

Sorry to have so greatly offended you. I wanted to know what people thought about this, and you have certainly shared your thinking with me. Thank you.

El_Cadejo's avatar

Its on my Netflix instant queue. Im going to watch it tonight.

ETpro's avatar

@CaptainHarley hehe. Yeah, well you did ask. Now you know. I tend to feel like @Thammuz when it comes to pop junk scientists, and that’s what the trailers screamed to me due to the logical inconsistency I pointed out. Uttering two sentences in a row, one which directly contradicts the assertion made in the other, is not the stuff of good science.

CaptainHarley's avatar

English IS his second language, you know.

ETpro's avatar

@CaptainHarley Ha! And logical thinking isn’t his first.

CaptainHarley's avatar

But if you presume that consciousness pre-existed matter?

ETpro's avatar

His statements still contradict one another. If we dip so deep into metaphysics that true and false mean the same thing, we are definitely not dealing with science.

CaptainHarley's avatar

Ok, ok. It’s too late at night for me to deal with this.

Have a great night and perhaps we’ll follow up on it tomorrow. : )

Thammuz's avatar

@CaptainHarley Sorry to have so greatly offended you.
You haven’t. I never get offended by people who ask me what i think about this kind of stuff. I get offended by the stuff itself.

English IS his second language, you know.
a) He’s indian, so it’s more of a first language to him than it is to me and i still wouldn’t have made that mistake.
b) He’s been teaching in oregon for 32 years, I’d say he should be fluent enough by now.

But if you presume that consciousness pre-existed matter?
I don’t know, and he doesn’t know either.

When you think about it we don’t know what difference that would make in the slightest, all we have is his word for the fact that this would somehow change everything in the landscape of modern quantum physics, which is not the way one makes science.

AdamF's avatar

@CaptainHarley “But if you presume that consciousness pre-existed matter?”

The only beings possessing consciousness that we are aware of, are complex byproducts of billions of years of evolution, all of which are built upon carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and additional trace elements. In other words, to assume that consciousness pre-existed matter, is to presume something which throws out every bit of knowledge regarding how the universe works that we do have.

Not a good starting point if you want what you believe to approximate what is likely to be true.

Fyrius's avatar

@CaptainHarley
Side note:
“English IS his second language, you know.”
It’s impossible nowadays to be a successful scientist without being fluent in English.

This is moot, though, because the contradiction @ETpro pointed out is not a linguistic sort of error.

Summum's avatar

Neither matter nor consciousness pre-existed each other. They have always been and shall always be it is the way of the Universe and no matter how hard we try from our view point science will not put that together. Science can’t because our science is based on a beginning and an ending to all that we know.

mattbrowne's avatar

Sounds like a worthy cause. I’d have to read more about it.

El_Cadejo's avatar

I tried watching it last night. I fell asleep after the first 30 min. It was both late and rather boring. I will attempt again to watch tonight.

What I gathered from the first 30 min. Psychobabble. The movie is essentially a bunch of clips of him giving talks at random places. There are more than one occasion where a clip is played and the one immediately proceeding that, he contradicts what he said in the former one.

From what I watched there has been no actual evidence yet, hell he barely made any real claims yet other than science needs redefining and god exists. Most of his supporting “evidence” is strange poorly argued takes on half the stuff im learning in intro to philosophy and him twisting it in such a way to say YES! there is god. No actual evidence, just thought experiments. Bunch of hogwash.

That said, I will watch the rest of this movie and see if miraculously something of substance will come out but im not holding my breath.

El_Cadejo's avatar

ok….. I figured out my problem. I was looking at this as a movie regarding science. I was mistaken. Its a poor philosophy movie.

There is no science here. Only 45 min in so again maybe its hidden. But like blah this movie sucks. Like its not really about quantum mumbo whatever, it seems more like a platform for this guy to just preach to a crowd. Like really who fills half their movie with clips of their self giving speeches instead of oh I dont know, a better form of narration in some way. Blah.

El_Cadejo's avatar

He is now using chakras and the tibetian book of the dead as supporting evidence….

Fyrius's avatar

@uberbatman
I think I speak for a number of us when I thank you for watching this film so we don’t have to.

Thammuz's avatar

@Fyrius I think i might watch it just to get my liver a nice workout. Everytime something idiotic is brought up i take a shot of vodka.

On second thought that might be fatal.

Fyrius's avatar

@Thammuz
Wouldn’t you rather try sips of beer instead of shots of vodka?

Thammuz's avatar

@Fyrius Don’t be a pussy man, it’s either superalcoholic shots or nothing. Besides i survived doing this with the word “force” in Star Wars, i can take this one on.

Fyrius's avatar

Just be careful.
You live in a nation that houses the very power that makes people oppose stem cell technology, I reckon a new liver isn’t easy to come by.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@Thammuz I think you had a better chance with “force” in star wars over this movie. I almost cried a couple times. Not cause its emotionally straining or anything. Just downright idiotic.

If you do however attempt this crazed attempt at a drinking game all I have to say is

May the Force be with you.

Thammuz's avatar

@uberbatman should i take a shot for that? Anyway i probably should first watch it and then decide.

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