Not a word about 9/11 on bin Ladens FBI site. Why?
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I want to see pictures and DNA evidence before I believe that he’s really dead. I know that some people are upset by the U.S. sending kill team to take him out; I don’t have much of a problem with that. At least it was publicly announced. What I object to are the covert operations where kill orders were made without the President’s approval.
People need to know that we will react violently when our citizens are murdered and it needs to be made publicly. The next target should be the pirates from Somalia.
What possible reason or tactical advantage would come from lying about killing bin Laden? If he’s still alive, he would just make a video.
There’s a healthy skepticism of the government on one hand, and then there’s just conspiracy theorizing for its own sake.
@Ron_C and @Qingu
This question is not about whether or not he is dead, but about the fact that the FBI website apparently does not connect Bin Laden to 9/11.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I just want proof. The last guy that was honest with the country was Carter and he was thrown out of office and all of his policies were reversed.
Your question is a little vague. Please rephrase. Or is the last question what you want answered? Questioning Osama’s evilness seems to be trying a little too hard. We could also argue how evil hitler was, but that would be a futile exercise.
@chris6137 Look at the dates on the bottom of the poster for starters. It was last revised on November 2001 according to the site. Obviously they updated it with him being deceased now, but they may not have updated any other information on it. As far as why there isn’t anything about him being responsible for 9/11, I’m not sure why it’s not there and it would be interesting to find out.
@jlelandg
If Osama bin laden was the mastermind behind 9/11(or was it Mohammed), how come it does not say a thing about him being wanted for 9/11 on the FBI website?
@Seaofclouds
You would think that they would update that information with one of the worst terror attacks in history, no?
I remember right after 9/11, that Pakistan said they would turn over bin Laden had the US presented evidence of his involvement. Apparently, we Had no evidence and instead decided to use a whole bunch of money that we dont have to go look for him for ten years. Wouldn’t have been much easier to do that than to invade five countries?
It is a bureaucratic foul-up. That’s all. You can make a conspiracy theory out of anything!
@marinelife
And you can agree with anything the president says…...
There’s just too many questions that i have, sorry for thinking and not just believing what I’m told by corporate media and corporate government.
The only evidence we have of bin Ladens involvement in 9/11 is a taped confession in which he is wearing gold rings, which from what I’ve read, happens to be against Islamic principles.
@chris6137 How does that negate the confession? There is a lot of evidence that Bin laden was behind the 9/11 plots, not least a videotape in which he shows knowledge of the attacks before they took place.
“The videotape is called a “smoking gun” and represents the clearest evidence released to date of Osama
bin Laden’s part in the planning of the September 11 attacks. The text of the conversations clearly indicates
that Osama bin Laden knew about the attacks days before and that he had participated in the planning. The
obvious glee and laughter in the room when the group trades their September 11 stories bears witness to the
“evil” that lurks within the men of al-Qaeda.
In addition to images and the text of the December 13th videotape released by the Pentagon, this section
includes the complete detailed evidence against Osama bin Laden as released by Tony Blair’s U.K. government
on October 3, 2001.”
Source
It seems like @chris6137 thinks that the FBI’s failure to mention 9/11 on their bin Laden page is evidence of a frame-up.
Well, that would be sort of amateur hour for a vast conspiracy, don’t you think? You think they framed bin Laden for 9/11 and then said to themselves, “well, we know he didn’t actually do it, so we’d better not include it on his FBI webpage”?
p.s. you’re going to have to fill me in on which 5 countries we invaded
Oh! I forgot to answer your question. Sorry. UBL was placed on the Most-Wanted List in connection with the U.S. embassy bombings, for which sufficient evidence has been gathered (as in, bagged and tagged) to peg him as the perpetrator in American courts.
Now I’ll say something you’ll love: the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.
That is to say, they have no evidence that they’re certain would hold up in an American court. What they have is what is commonly referred to as circumstantial. In addition, the evidence that has so convinced America’s policymakers has been gathered through the American intelligence apparatus, i.e., through systems and networks not available to be exposed to public view.
The FBI is an American law enforcement agency. Their job is to arrest suspects so that crimes can be prosecuted. They are clearly certain that they could see Osama prosecuted for the attacks in Tanzania and Kenya, but in a fair trial (American-style), there’s a lot of evidence that
a. is circumstantial
or
b. could never even be brought to the table
Conceivably, a trial for the 9/11 attacks might have seen Osama bin Laden acquitted for lack of evidence.
Not only did the last two administrations have absolutely no interest in being brought to trial, but nobody in the U.S. saw bin Laden as the subject of a criminal case. He had declared war—and waged war—on the United States of America, and he became the target of a military and intelligence manhunt. The FBI’s “lack of evidence” is not evidence that bin Laden was not the perpetrator. We have piles to the contrary but nearly none of it, I’m afraid, would be admissible in a civilian court.
thhbbbbbbbppppppppppppt
Libya: not invaded
Yemen: not invaded
If having American troops on the ground counted as an invasion, then we’ve also invaded Bahrain, Brazil, Cuba, Spain, Japan, Italy, Israel, Greece, South Korea, Australia, Bulgaria, Germany, Greenland, Singapore, Kyrgyzstan, etc….
You’re next, Chris. Better stop posting your theories on the Internet and get yourself a fortified compound before the special forces get you.
@Qingu
You are absolutely right. The way this country is going, asking questions will be grounds for death or torture….
@quarkquarkquark
Im not talking about troops on the ground. I am talking about unmanned planes dropping bombs on villages, like Yemen and Libya.
Deceased says it all doesn’t it.
@chris6137 They are not invading Libya. They are enforcing the mandate of the U.N’s Security Council by enforcing a no-fly zone. It isn’t just the U.S doing this.
They were not invading. They were trying to enforce peace in a country torn by civil war.
As for your argument about the World Trade Center falling in free fall…. here should answer your questions.
Furthermore, you stated that there were military drills where planes were to fly into buildings. According to wikipedia link here there were a number of drills that were planned to/happened.
Only one drill matched your description, and according to Wikipedia (whose credibility might be called into question but I’ll assume the info here is real this time) the drill was simply training employees on how to escape one of the towers of N.R.O headquarters in the event a small plane crashes because of a mechanical failure.
Also, according to the youtube video you posted on here the military drills “enhanced our ability to respond” to the attack.
Lastly, your youtube link about Norman Mineta’s testimony conflicts with this , another account of the same conversation between Cheney and the military aide.
Sorry if not all my information is correct, I have tried my best to find suitable sources to counter what you have said.
I would like to close with a word of advice: Do try to secondary sources beyond Youtube to back your arguments. I am not saying that Youtube is any less reliable than Wikipedia, but that you should conduct more research to further look into what each Youtube video has stated before making a conclusion (for example, your question, “What’s up with the drills that our military was running on 9/11, where planes were going to fly into buildings?” would have been answered had you went on Wikipedia and found that “planes were going to fly into buildings” was an overstatement).
My goodness, it’s 3 a.m at my side of the world. Way past a 15 year old’s bedtime.
@belakyre, I’m overjoyed to finally have somebody else on fluther who’s willing to refute this idiocy point-by-point.
@chris6137, please be more precise in your language. Bombing does not and and has never constituted an invasion by any definition of the word.
“The way this country is going”—why don’t you go ahead and do some research into the way this country used to be? I think in the scope of things we’re probably headed in the right direction.
And one more thing—mistrust of the government is healthy and completely justified. They keep things from us, and sometimes they do real evil in the world. Just don’t let that mistrust take you to stupid, unjustified places. Think critically.
Here are the things I’m willing to be skeptical about:
• That bin Laden’s wife was used as a human shield.
• That they actually bothered to perform some Islamic rites before they dumped his corpse.
Both of those things would have been easy to make up, unverifiable, and have a clear propaganda use. On the other hand, I can easily see both of them happening.
The actual death of bin Laden is not easy to up and is easily verifiable.
@Qingu How can you verify his death now without a body?? The description of the man in the pictures was “we think that looks like him”. DNA “Proof” could be the blood of one of his sons that purportedly was killed in the raid. What really get’s me though I have not seen nor heard one verified video or tape recording of OBL in about 8 years or more. How can you kill someone who is probably already dead?
What really cracks me up though was Obama shutting down the last ½ hour of The Apprentice! Nice work there Obama!! Too funny!
@Qingu Audio tapes are easily forged as were most of the other citings in that link. The last decent video was in 2001 and the last “verified video was 2002 and the rest were hack jobs with fakes. In this day and age you can get decent video footage with a cell phone. If the guy was alive and well there would be all sorts of footage and there isn’t! OBL loved putting out vids when he was alive and all we get in the last 8 years is dubious sound bites?? BIG problem for me.
I say he has been dead a long time….read this from 2002
I sure as hell wouldn’t put out videos if I were bin Laden, considering the tracking capabilities of even run of the mill computer hackers today.
And it’s interesting that you have no doubts about the word of Gen. Musharaf, a pillar of integrity among heads of state. I guess it’s only cool and edgy to doubt the word of your own government.
Also, let’s just trace the trajectory of the conspiracy you “say” you believe in.
2002: Osama bin Laden dies of kidney failure
2003–2010: Some party (al-Qaeda? The CIA?) forges a series of audiotapes that sound exactly like Osama bin Laden and that the intelligence community unanimously says is Osama bin Laden.
2011: President Obama finds his approval ratings are low, and so directs a special forces op against a random fortified bunker in suburban Pakistan that may or may not have resulted in the deaths of several people, none of whom were bin Laden (maybe one was a body double?) Just in time for re-election! In… 15 months.
Yes, all the pieces are coming into place. My eyes are opened. Or, maybe there wasn’t any helicopter SEALs raid and that guy on Twitter was just a CIA spy too.
@Qingu Sorry not buying a bridge to nowhere today. Why would today be any different than 10 years ago when he was not afraid to put out a video a month?? The last video of him in December 2001 shows him on his last legs. Our war on terror needed us to “think” he was a live and we no longer need that as most want these wars to end so what we needed was a damn good reason to stop the fighting over there.
@Qingu I agree; saying the woman was used as a ‘human shield’ is nonsense. They intended killing everyone they came across. I am inclined to believe they did perform some kind of ceremony before dropping Osama into the ocean but would doubt if it was a meaningful one.
the only ritual i can imagine them doing is defecating on his corpse
@Cruiser, skepticism is a perfectly commendable rhetorical position, but it is an untenable logical position. You cannot argue against a theory backed up with evidence with the claim that “it could just as well be false.” This is fallacious reasoning, and while it is strictly true, the burden of proof falls on you, not on those of us who “buy in” to the “official story.” Likewise, the ad hominem argument (excuse my anticipation) that those of us who do “buy in” do so because we are not skeptics doesn’t fly, because so many of us so clearly are.
I can do what you’re doing with anything at all. AIDS could be created by the government to kill black people. The Holocaust could be a huge Zionist hoax. Personally, I find both of those views thoroughly offensive, but it’s not like either undertaking would have been altogether impossible to accomplish. What’s at issue in a discussion like ours is their plausibility.
Re questions about bin Laden’s identification, they’re saying a full biometric workup was done. This means: dental, DNA, fingerprints, and facial proportions. In time, I imagine, this information will be released to the public for examination.
At which point, I imagine, you will insist it’s been fabricated.
The success of WikiLeaks and the government’s frightened-tiger reaction to it show that the government can’t keep a lid on even the most mundane things—and that’s even when they’re classified top-secret. That’s the closest that most of us rational people can come as far as definitively refuting conspiracy arguments.
@Cruiser, let me get your logic straight.
President Musharaf: “Osama bin Laden is probably on dialysis, or dead. I mean, who knows? My country wouldn’t harbor him or anything.”
You: The man speaks the truth!
President Obama: A team of Navy SEALs just killed bin Laden.
Multiple media sources: Here’s the compound he was staying at. Here are interviews with multiple sources who witnessed the operation. Here are al-Qaeda sources reacting with shock, disbelief and promises of revenge (but none that note he was already dead).
You: President Obama, the reporters, all of the sources they interviewed, and the entire online presence of al-Qaeda are lying!
I hope they release the photos and videos just so I can watch you dance.
@Qingu Nothing would make me happier than to dance for you! I would trade places with you in a heart beat to erase the terror I felt sitting in a plane on 9/11. Nobody wanted that man more dead than me and I just find it ridiculous that it took the strongest smartest country in the world 10 years to find the SOB. Makes us look like asses that we wasted 10 years and countless trillions of dollars and gallons of American and Allied blood when in the end all it took 2 fucking bullets to take him down. Honestly, WTH took so long?
It’s certainly hard to do a manhunt in a country of 170 million people, most of whom hate you, many of whom are actively sympathizing with the people you’re hunting. Also it seems probable that the ISI and/or military was actually complicit to some extent in hiding bin Laden.
Plus George W Bush did say he didn’t really care where bin Laden was and wasn’t too concerned about looking for him. Then he invaded Iraq and diverted most of our military resources there. We almost had him in 2001 at Tora Bora.
And America is not all-powerful. We have never been all-powerful, and we never will be. I feel your disappointment and irritation that it’s taken this long, but we are not the World Police, at least not yet.
As badass as this operation was, it’s not like we dropped in special forces from orbit or some sci-fi shit. We flew helicopters in from Afghanistan, one of which malfunctioned and had to be blown up. Also the Pakistanis scrambled jets once they figured out what was going on. It really could have gone badly.
Obama could have bombed the compound (this was a plan on the table) but he used SEALs because he wanted to ID the body and to minimize civilian casualties.
@Qingu, @Cruiser has changed his rhetoric in the face of your unimpeachable logic. He clearly has a reasonable sentiment at play in his noggin, but he’s having trouble articulating it, so what we’ve been seeing is the flotsam and jetsam of his cognitive processes—i.e. bullshit that we hate to hear but love to point out.
@Cruiser, with respect to the 2002 CNN story quoting Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, if you were going to give Osama bin Laden assylum, would you be more likely to say, “He’s building a compound in my country” or “He may be dead from kidney failure”?
Because 10 hours ago, he’s saying his death is “a positive step.”
@BarnacleBill “A positive step” could mean anything. HS Pakistan mobilized fighter jets in hopes of shooting our asses out of the sky last night! All God Damn double speak…Pakistan is pissed as hell we toasted Osama and they won’t come out and say it publicly. Pakistan provided safe harbor for OBL and now they are exposed as a lap dog for the US. Now they know their asses are as big of targets as ours are and then some. A lot of innocents will die because of yesterday and they know it!
I’m not sure it’s accurate to speak of “Pakistan” as if it’s a monolithic entity.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the ISI and military were in fact heavily infiltrated with Taliban/AQ. On the other hand, I do think there are a lot of people in Pakistan, civilians, military, and probably intelilgence agents, who hate AQ and the Taliban as much as we do. Pakistan is not a monolithic state; it’s practically a failed state. It’s also a huge society with many facets, just like America.
And frankly, if a foreign country was sending robot airplanes and dropping bombs on your sovereign territory, many of which are killing civilians, you would probably hate them and sympathize with their enemies too. It’s an extraordinarily complicated situation in Pakistan and knee-jerk “let’s put them on the target list!” isn’t raelly a helpful response.
Also, I don’t think Musharaf was actively sheltering bin Laden, I think he was juggling a bunch of different forces—his own desire to maintain his dictatorship, a populace that hated America (and resented the idea of Americans invading Pakistan to take out bin Laden), and who generally sympathized with al-Qaeda. He probably didn’t know bin Laden was there for sure, but he did know that Ameircans hunting for him in Pakistan was bad for his grip on power, so he did what most dictators do and made up some bullshit for misdirection.
@Qingu Musharaf depends on the millions BILLIONS that “we” send his way to support our war on terror in his back yard. Can you say “Dance”??
Depended. He ain’t prez anymore, Zardari is.
But yeah. We should not be giving them that money, definitely not anymore.
@Cruiser, you need to address my issues with your responses. Skepticism is healthy, but it is not a position. Perhaps if you clued us in to why you feel so skeptical on this particular topic?
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