What do you think about someone using Palestine?

People who use the word “Palestine” when referring to Israel are usually anti-Israel in some way. If they’re using the word “Palestine” when they’re talking about Gaza or the West Bank then it’s a correct usage.

The issue of what exactly is Palestine lies at the heart of the conflict in that part of the world.

The short synopsis (as I understand it). In the 1940s the region was a known as the Ottoman Empire and was a British territory and consisted of a vast chunk of mostly uninhabited land that did have several nomadic tribes that wandered the region. However it is important to note that in ancient times the area was known as Palestine (more on how that relates later).

So, after the holocaust the british decided that giving the Jews back their ancestral homeland was the right thing to do. After all, it was their territory to do with what they pleased and for the most part the only folks around there were tribal nomads that didn’t really call any particular chunk of land their own anyway.

Well, the Arab world got their knickers in a twist over this as they are quite anti-semetic and did not like the idea of Jews living next door. Years of unrest ensued. Then, a guy named Yasser Arafat (known as the father of modern terrorism) had a revelation. He realized that most of the world really couldn’t give a rats patutti about Jews moving back Israel, mainly because for the most part it was old news. So he had the brilliant idea of starting to blow up innocent civilian targets to scare the shit out of the rest of the world and get big headline coverage for his cause. Secondly, he had the concurrent brilliant idea to start calling those unrelated groups of tribal nomads “Palestinians”, as though they are some sort of ancient unified culture that was driven from their land by the evil Jews. The strategy has proven to be quite effective, and, unfortunately has been going on long enough that those tribal nomads actually buy into the idea that they are all “Palestinian”.

Now, even though Israel traded over half of their territory in a deal with the “Palestinians” for lasting peace and found that said “Palestinians” had no intention what so ever of keeping up their end of the bargain, things have gone a step further and the anti-semitic crowd are now calling the West Bank and the Gaza strip a part of “Palestine”. After their last treaty with the “Palestinians” I can understand why the Jews are reluctant to make any more treaties.

@YoBob Good synopsis, but I understand the history behind Palestine and Israel. The question is: What would you think about someone who chooses to call the country Palestine? Do you think it’s anti-Israel, antisemetic, just a fairly meaningless word choice, or something else?

It’s not a potato/potahto thing. If she was referring to the country Israel as “Palestine”, then that’s making a political statement. “Palestine” is not an alternate name for the nation of Israel. It is, however, a historical name for that region, and a term that refers to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

This is no longer very controversial. If you refer to Israel proper as Palestine, you are indeed making a political statement. However, if you refer to the occupied territories in the West Bank (Judea and Samarea)—which are occupied mostly by Palestinians—as Palestine, you’re usually using an uncontroversial label. That is, unless the person you’re talking to is a Likud MP in the Knesset. As a Zionist, I have no problem with people referring to the West Bank as “Palestine.” It is largely governed by the Palestinian Authority, which refers to it as such. I believe the Palestinian people deserve a state there, yes, but that has no bearing on my acceptance of the label.

Clearly, though, if somebody uses “Palestine” to refer to Israel, a political statement is being made.

The heart of the matter is that Palestine does not exist. Period. After the 1948 Nakba, Palestine ceased to exist and Israel came into existence. Referring to Israel as Palestine is incorrect. The only reason someone would do this is if they wanted to take away the legitimacy of the Israeli state or if they are referring to the state prior to 1948 when it was, indeed, Palestine. I always refer to Israel as Israel/Palestine because I think it very important to give Palestinians the recognition they deserve. Contrary to the popular Zionist narrative, what used to be Palestine was not “a land without a people for a people without a land.” Palestine was inhabited and not only by “tribal nomads that didn’t really call any particular chunk of land their own anyway” as @YoBob put it. They very much cared about their land and it is important to remember that what is now Israel was Palestine and that the people who are native to land land and are not Zionists are Palestinians. Right now Palestinians are represented in the political arena by the Palestinian Authority, but this could soon change as French President, Sarkozy may soon recognize Palestine as a state, which is the best thing to do in order to move forward with the peace process.

Depends: was she referring to the land where the Palestinian Authority and Hammas rule, andhave recently reached an agreement? The land called the West Bank and Gaza? The land which is designated to be called Palestine in September, when it will (probably) be brought up for a vote in the UN?

Or Israel.

If it’s the latter, then she is but one of many people who are biased/confused.

@zen I don’t know which she was referring to, but I have to assume she meant a country called Palestine since she said it in the same breath as another country.

Hum.

what other country? what’s the context?

@global_nomad Actually, we prefer Israelis. A Zionist is an American who asks someone for money to send someone else to live in Israel.

@quiddidyquestions Far from being a ‘good synopsis’, @YoBob‘s explanation is riddled with errors, distortions and partiality. To be charitable, I’ll assume he’s just wildly ill-informed as opposed to deliberately spreading such tosh.

It isn’t that much different than calling parts of the United States something like Texas, and people there something like Texan.
It is just the area they are refering to, and the people who live there.

Kind of depends on your frame of reference.

I have never heard anyone refer to Israel as Palestine. @YoBob is incorrect when he says that this land was inhabited only by Arab nomads before the founding of the State of Israel. There were half a million Muslims and 25,000 Jews living here relatively harmoniously in 1880 and these numbers exclude the nomadic Bedouins.

The resentment many Muslims feel towards Jews was stirred up by disputes over land which resulted in many Palestinians having to leave their homes for refugee camps rather than hostility to Jewish culture or religion.

@flutherother Apparently I have been mis-informed regarding the population of the Ottoman Empire in the 1940s. Thank you for the clarification.

@YoBob No problem and I’ve given your reply a ‘great answer’.

Let’s say you have a house with a moderately sized yard, and maybe you’ve planted a big garden there. Your friends know it as “Quiddidy’s Place.” Your family’s lived there and passed it down for almost 2000 years, you’ve worked the land, and basically it’s yours, through and through.

Then, the neighborhood starts to change. Some of your neighbors have sold out to folks from another neighborhood. Their old neighborhood was really bad, there was a lot of gang violence maybe, but your perfectly fine little street is changing. You could deal with it, though, until one day some of the new, incoming neighbors waltz into your yard and set up tents all over the place. They’ve scared your pets and trampled your garden. Maybe they’ve even shot your son and daughter. Then, they start building homes, right there in your yard! And some of them take over your house, saying, “Okay, maybe you can live in this walk-in closet, but we’re going to lock the door on it so you can’t step out into our house, got it?”

I bet you’d be mad! I bet you’d want to lob some rocks out that closet door and try to hit some of the jerks who ruined your garden, are setting up their homes on your land, who are taking over your freakin’ house and who roughed up your kids and wife. “Hey!” you shout! “Get outta here! This is Quiddidy’s place!”

“No, you’re just making a political statement,” they say. “This isn’t at all Quiddidy’s place. It’s Israel!”

The Arab League, back in 1959, stated that anyone (Arab) could become a citizen of any Arab country, so long as they were both a resident of that country and could prove they had sufficient means to support themselves. Except for Palestinians.

I hope they declare statehood in September – and fuck off already.

The fact that the Palestinians have been shat on from a height by other Arab nations doesn’t make Israel’s shitting on them any more justified or palatable.

Equally, their being shat on by all and sundry doesn’t make the actions of the nut-job jihadist Palestinians any more justified or palatable either

Whatever, armchairwarrior. Your kind have come and gone here before, or did you just use another nickname.

I just think it’s interesting that so many people care about the Israel/Palestine issue when almost the exact same thing happened in America in regards to the Native Americans and there isn’t near as much hoo-hah about it. They were here first, they used the land for generations, the Europeans came in and took it away and pushed them onto reservations…there’s definitely a similarity. Although, the difference, of course, is that no one can argue that America is the original homeland of the Europeans…so it’s even less justified in this case…

@DominicX – You’re right, and it’s something we talked about in my Middle East history class. What do you think we should do about it nowadays? (This is not a sarcastic question.) I ask this, knowing that it’s not the subject at hand here, and suggesting it would make a very good question of its own.

@zen and @meiosis – The reason for the lack of citizenship offers to Palestinians, from what I hear from a Syrian friend, is that (1) they don’t want the Palestinians to just dissolve away, join other nations and forget their cause, (2) if the other Arab nations absorb the Palestinian population, it’s sort of like saying, “OK Israel, you win, we’re movin’ on”, and (3) Having a homeless bunch of Palestinians looking all pitiful stays in the world’s face, reminding the rest of us that Israel continues to be a rogue nation of sorts.

@DominicX, @laureth, this is a topic I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about, and there are several reasons that are immediately apparent.

1. Plain old anti-Semitism. I don’t think that’s the cause so much in the U.S., but in countries like France and the U.K., which have a millennia-old tradition of it, it plays a real part.
2. Temporal proximity. Many of the Palestinians who were forced to flee their homes are still alive.
3. Relevance. Israel is the fuse in the powder-keg of the Middle East. Since we killed, assimilated or marginalized most of the Native American population, they don’t pose a threat to us or to anyone else. People couldn’t care less.
4. Investment. The U.S. and the U.K. are basically Israel’s daddy. We’re also arguably two of the biggest powers in the world. Arabs see Israel as an extension of Western hegemony, and populations in America and England see Israel’s various untoward actions as a betrayal of the energy, faith and money the West has placed in it over the years.