Meta Question

Hibernate's avatar

How come people [here on Fluther] like to talk/debate/argue so much about things they don't understand or don't have a clue about?

Asked by Hibernate (9025 points ) November 2nd, 2011

When I was picturing this question I was thinking about the abundance of atheists around who like to talk so much about Christianity. I mean let’s be serious for a second. They only know what others told them. Most at some point read about it and didn’t pay attention to what they were reading and they only remember glimpses and use that as facts. Most don’t have a clue about what actually being a Christian means and they expect us to act according to what they think it’s correct.

But when I was pondering other things came to my mind. When someone asks a presumptive question then likes to fight about particularities for that situation yet they haven’t been through similar situations.
Or when a question is asked about a current event I saw a lot of people getting really aggressive or rude if your opinion differs from theirs.

What’s the deal?

Remember that not all do this but I personally witnessed a lot of these situations lately.

Feel free not to ridicule my grammar/vocabulary. Use a PM for this.

This is in General.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

110 Answers

whitetigress's avatar

Well I think the point is to have an opinion about something and HOPEFULLY facts and sources would back up statements. Unfortunately this isn’t NASA or the Pentagon or the Print Media so you know, the internet succeeds in lolly gag discussions here and there. But at least we try. This might go to META btw.

Hibernate's avatar

It was already moved [before you answered it].

Seaofclouds's avatar

I think it’s mostly because people want to be heard and they want to express their opinion, be it right or wrong. The form an opinion based on what they know and they feel that it is the right opinion, so they are going to defend it as best they can. Sounds pretty much like human nature to me.

everephebe's avatar

A great many atheists know much more about the Bible or aspects of religion than, certain religious folks. A great many atheists have experience of being Christian. It follows that they speak their mind on a subject that is familiar to them.

chyna's avatar

Rude is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. I will read an opinion and think it was fine, but then someone will come back and say it was rude or mean.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Huh ? ? ? Did I miss something ?

I don’t understand, who should I argue with?

DominicX's avatar

Actually, as an atheist, I’m surprised I know more about Christianity than others I know who claim to be Christian.

When people disagree with someone, they often like to claim the other person is “misinformed” and “just doesn’t get it”. So I really am going to take this question’s laments with a grain of salt.

digitalimpression's avatar

As a Christian I have found a few of the atheists on the site to be overly sarcastic and they have often mocked (sometimes subtly, sometimes blatantly) what I hold dear. However, I have found that this is true of most ideas on which people’s opinions/beliefs differ.

As far as the knowledge of the subject of Christianity… there are a few non-religious people who have quite a lot of textbook knowledge on Christianity but very little practical knowledge or personal experience. I can know everything there is to know about sailing, but that doesn’t make me a maritime legend and professional sailor.

People are just different. It’s the fundamental blessing and curse of society.

tinyfaery's avatar

Am I the only one that sees the irony here?

saint's avatar

Everybody has an opinion. Not all opinions are objectively correct. And some people don’t care. And so it goes.

6rant6's avatar

@tinyfaery You’re right. Just this once.

wundayatta's avatar

I don’t understand you, and I don’t have a clue what you are talking about (no specific instances), but I’m prepared to argue with you about it as long as we’re both having fun. If it stops being fun, I’ll be out of here. If they allowed insults on fluther, I’d be happy to provide you with as many as you like. All honest ones, too.

Alas, since I have no clue what you are on about, there is little I can do. Obviously, that hasn’t stopped me from answering your question. Although surely I will get modded since I am in general and my answer is supposed to be on topic. Since I don’t understand the topic, I can’t be on topic, can I?

nikipedia's avatar

Luckily, I know everything about everything, so this doesn’t apply to me.

wundayatta's avatar

A specialist learns more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing. A generalist learns less and less about more and more until they know nothing about everything.

@nikipedia…. uh… @nikipedia… well…. I can’t explain it, I’m afraid. But then, I’m a generalist. I know it exists.

No, I figured it out. She is both a generalist and a specialist. In other words, she is a goddess. All hail @nikipedia!

Kardamom's avatar

@Hibernate you made this statement, “I know some “Christians” are doing what they shouldn’t be doing but they only wear the name of Christianity not the meaning of that means to be one.” from This Thread

You also made this statement, “This is where you get it all wrong. The institution of marriage was made for a WOMAN and A MAN. He didn’t have to say anything about it because it was clear. Oh I’m sorry. You won’t accept this. Well, to bad since it’s a fact and it’s the truth.”

With regards to the first statement, I think you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. There is no rule book for exactly what a Christian is or what a Christian should believe or what it means to be a Christian. If you hadn’t noticed there are many, many different forms of Christianity from Catholicism, to Baptists, to Presbyterians, to Shakers, to Methodists, to the Church of England, to Greek Orthodoxy, to Mormons. All of these groups identify themselves as Christians, but some of the members of the opposing groups think that the others are not “true Christians.” Each of these Christian groups believes that “their” beliefs are correct and they have disagreements with the other groups as to what is right and what is wrong. The biggest difference is that the Catholics believe that the Popes and Bishops and Priests are the direct line from Jesus, the other Christian religions do not believe that. That is a fundamental difference. But all of the Christians in all of the Christian religions still believe that they are Christians, whether you think so or not. Then there are lots of people who do not affiliate with any particular organized church, but still consider themselves to be Christians, yet you seem to be the authority on Christianity. Don’t you find that ironic?

With regards to your second statement, there is no proof whatsoever that marriage was made for a woman and a man. And if you want to prove that Jesus, himself, believed it, then it’s really ashame that he didn’t say anything about it. And you are wrong that he didn’t need to because in your words, “it was clear” and “it’s a fact and it’s the truth.” Where are the facts? You are simply stating an opinion, just like all of the other people that you seem to have a problem with.

Back in the early days of civilization, “marriage” was mostly a legal contract between families, a means to acquire or protect land and property holdings. Of course these contracts were made between men and women, because the families were expecting to have the couple produce heirs to keep and pass down the property. It had nothing to do with love or making sure that homos didn’t get anything. I don’t think that most people had any notion of what homosexuality (or even heterosexuality) was back then. They were just making legal contracts, and back then, that was the only way you could produce heirs (and that was the only reason for marriage), by forcing a male and a female from a different family to procreate. It simply would not have occurred to allow or force two same sex people to marry, because that act would not produce an heir. Today, marriage is much more than a legal contract to produce an heir, so the outdated reasons for only allowing opposite sex couples to marry doesn’t even make any sense.

Also, what one Fluther member sees as a rude comment, is a true and accurate statment to another Fluther member.

And most atheists, at least in the U.S., started out as Chrisitans. It’s when they started to question their faith and look at both the facts and the hypocricy, that’s most likely when they realized that there are other beliefs out there. Some valid, some not valid. Some of the atheists probably looked at our world and noticed that there are way more people in the world who do not believe in Christianity at all, and follow other religions, but those people still believe just as strongly as Christians do, that their faith, whether it be Buddhism, Shintoism, Native American spiritual beliefs, Shamanism, African spiritual beliefs, Voodoo, Santeria, Wiccanism or what have you is true and correct. Just like Christians do.

And you don’t have to have the experience of being a pedophile priest, to understand fundamentally that that type of behavior is wrong.

Coloma's avatar

“People”...um, “people” is a generalization. SOME people, would have been a better choice of words.
I don’t pretend to know about something I don’t know. I’m all about offering up experience.
Everyone has an opinion, but, without experience ones opinions are moot.

Who am I going to believe, the map maker who has never followed his route or the pioneer that has? Duh!

Buttonstc's avatar

Have you not yet realized that it’s all being done specifically to irritate YOU ?

Granted, it’s a lot of effort. But obviously you must be worth it. Right?

:D

YARNLADY's avatar

The discussions that consist of people’s opinions, which are the majority of discussions on Fluther, usually lead to a better understanding of different ways of looking at society and the world around us.

It’s not really necessary to know everything (and not even possible) in order to form an opinion.

SpatzieLover's avatar

I think you may be confused as to what Fluther is @Hibernate. It appears you take differing opinions as fights.

We’re here to share our knowledge and our opinions.

It also appears you do not want to be addressed for clarification or when someone disagrees with you.

jerv's avatar

Welcome to the Internet, you must be new here.

Seriously though, that seems to be something not restricted to Fluther, or even online. People like to at least put in their two cents worth, and many like to promote their views and/or denigrate opposing/differing viewpoints, and whether or not their arguments have any basis in facts or any sound logic behind them is irrelevant; they will open their mouths (or type their replies) regardless of whether they actually know anything or not.

BTW, a fact that amuses me to no end is that, in general, Atheists know more about Christianity than most sects of Christianity.

Mariah's avatar

How can you say that athiests can’t talk about Christianity when you talk about science while obviously having major misunderstandings about the theories you’re discounting?

Even if you’re right and these athiests truly don’t know about Christianity, what harm comes from discussing it?

ratboy's avatar

There is no fact of the matter of what it actually means to be a Christian; the experience of being Christian varies widely with time and place. It is, therefore, impossible for anyone to know what it means to be a Christian. The various doctrines of the many Christian sects, on the other hand, are widely known, and belief is irrelevant to that knowledge.

Raven_Rising's avatar

@Kardamom Well said! Your response was everything that I wanted to say but phrased much more coherently and eloquently than I could have.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Well, speak for yourself because I only argue about things I know a hell of a lot about.

Kardamom's avatar

@Raven_Rising Thanks : )

On a side note, I am not a Christian, but I celebrate Christmas big time! I absolutely love it. One of my friends is Jewish and she too loves everything about Christmas. How’s that for irony?

I wonder if the OP is OK with me celebrating Christmas?

jerv's avatar

@Kardamom For many, Christmas is a secular/commercial holiday rather than a religious one. While Jews and non-believers may not care about celebrating Christ, we do care about family get-togethers, feasts, and gifts.

ETpro's avatar

@Hibernate Sorry, but I don’t understand why “people” do that. I don’t have a clue.

Perhaps you might do some soul searching and find an answer from your inner meditations. For instance, how did you determine that no atheists understand anything about Christianity? I for one grew up in the Presbyterian church. I attended Sunday school and church every week. I went to a Bible College run by an evangelical church. I have read the Bible through multiple times from Genesis to Revelations. In secular college, while I majored in Chemistry and science, I also signed up for elective classes in the History of Religion and in Comparative Religions. It was during that study that the many contradictions of Christian eschatology began to bother me, and I evolved into atheistic agnosticism. Personally, I am often appalled at the shallowness of argument presented by the proponents of Christianity in these debates. Many of them present arguments that are utterly unsupported in the scriptures they claim to believe.

amujinx's avatar

I think part of the problem is you are viewing people to be “fight(ing) about particularities” when often people are asking about the particularities to try and understand someone else’s point of view.

Saying atheists only know about religion through what others say is a ridiculous statement by the way. I am an atheist, but I was raised as a Christian. I doubt I’m the only one either. I highly doubt I managed to learn nothing about religion during my time as a religious person.

Coloma's avatar

Classic stuff of wars.
Disagree and well, often that means you deserve to be killed, literally and figuratively.

Kardamom's avatar

@jerv Yes, my family has always looked upon Christmas as a celebration of being with family and a changing of the season, and we’ve always thought that that Jesus fellow had a lot of nice things to say, so if people want to celebrate his “birthday” (which according to modern science December 25th_isn’t_) then I say, let’s all join in the celebration! But we never thought for a second that Jesus was any better than any other do-gooder, and we simply don’t have any proof that he is supernatural or “Godly” whatever that means. We just like Christmas because it’s a time to get together with friends and loved ones and maybe be a little nicer than we could’ve/should’ve been during the rest of the year. And to share our bounty of food and love for each other. I think that’s an OK reason to celebrate Xmas.

So even though we are not Christians (we are agnostics) we have a nativity set that my Dad made when I was a little girl and I treasure it. One year, when I was about 7 years old, my dog ate one of the wise men. We replaced old Melchior (or was it Gaspar?) and have since added a little rubber kitten and a plastic doggy to our set. And last year, my 5 year old nephew donated a Lego guy to the set.

And it just wouldn’t be Thanksgiving if we didn’t bust out the Christmas music on that day. And not one day sooner. It just wouldn’t be right.

This is my favorite Christmas Song of all time. If this song doesn’t get you all tingly, I don’t know what would : )

JLeslie's avatar

I am an athiest and Jewish and I make statements about Christians all the time, I am guilty of it. I also ask questions about Christianity all the time. Two different things. I know some basics about Christianity, but I do not presume to know what each individual Christian thinks or how they interpret the bible or live their lives. Christians often get offended when people generalize about Christians. It seems to me there are many different types of Christians out there with many different beliefs, and an atheist might state something that is indeed true for some Christians, but maybe not for you.

Plus, as @jerv pointed out recent studies have shown that atheists and Jews know more about the bible than Christians. But, I do not think we atheists and Jews know more about how Christians actually think and believe.

We like to argue and debate because, well, because there are a bunch of Jews and athiests here. I have seen many jellies willing to change there opinion once shown their opinion is incorrect. Sometimes I think questioning is perceived as arguing or debating, and questioning is how we learn. But, if questioning a belief is seen as offensive, well then we have a problem.

ANef_is_Enuf's avatar

Although I’ve showed you this study multiple times, again atheists and agnostics have been proven to be very knowledgeable about religion. Including Christianity. “But a survey that measured Americans’ knowledge of religion found that atheists and agnostics knew more, on average, than followers of most major faiths.” Many of us studied religions in depth before making the leap to non-believer. Many of us were raised in religious households.
Your whole view on the situation is mixed up.

Pandora's avatar

To answer your question, I think it is best to remember that people come in all flavors. Its just a part of life and flutherites like any other site will have a ton of different opinions.
I feel its more important to ask why can’t people just answer respectfully. You can have a difference of opinion without being nasty or taking a question personally. Especially if it isn’t directed to a person on fluther and is being asked in a respectful manner.
Oh, before anyone finds any of my not so polite statements. Just keep in mind that some days I’m just in a bad mood. I try not to come on when that happens but thats just life. Shit happens.

Now I’m just going to bow out. I think I saw a cat fly over my head

Buttonstc's avatar

@jerv

I really hate to be overly nitpicky but…

If you read the conclusions and percentages of that study thoroughly, it cannot be used to back up a statement regarding knowledge, specifically, of Christianity.

On ALL religions yes. But not Christianity in particular. Both Mormons and Evangelical Protestants successfully answered more Qs specifically about the Bible and Christianity while Atheists/Agnostics scored highest on knowledge of ALL religions.

Two different sets of figures. Don’t takemy word for it. Check it out for yourself.

ANef_is_Enuf's avatar

Oh, I guess it helps to read the other responses first.

jerv's avatar

@Buttonstc Check again. that is why I phrased it the way I did, including the word “most”. Those two groups did know more. Atheists got 6.7/12, which is less than the Mormon’s 7.9 or Evangelicals’ 7.3, but look at the rest of them. Protestants as a while got 6.5, White Mainline Protestants got 5.8, Catholics got 5.4… you get my point.
Still, I appreciate the fact-checking enough to give you a GA.
Contrary to popular belief, I am not always right. Just ask @Raven_Rising :D

Raven_Rising's avatar

@Buttonstc You have no idea how true @jerv‘s last statement is…the stories I could tell….

Kardamom's avatar

@jerv Ha Ha Ha. Iove your song!

JLeslie's avatar

Meanwhile 5 out of 12, or 8 out of 12, so what come to think of it. The point should be that athiests do usually know something about Christianity, we are not completely ignorant to the largest belief system in the United States, and many parts of the western world. How could we be? We would have to be living under a rock. Mostly I think athiests comment on things that will affect them. So things like the Christian vote, or Christians using their beliefs to judge, or want to legislate laws, or putting their religion in our face opens Christians up to argument. I never feel the need to argue with a Buddhist, because they don’t seem to be trying to control my life.

zensky's avatar

Damn, late.

jrpowell's avatar

There are a lot of places you can be as religious as you want on the Internet and never have to deal with anyone that challenges your beliefs. And after a quick glance it looks like you are the one that always brings religion up.

edit :: WTF??

everephebe's avatar

Woah, yeah, @Hibernate… What’s with the “Made you look” bit? You mean the passage Isaiah 54:17 or what? 0_o

Response moderated
dannyc's avatar

Mostly to feel that their opinion is heard. All humans want validation by others, and never to feel left out. When you stir emotion, you generate closeness, which all humans crave.

zensky's avatar

@dannyc I hear you.

Response moderated
Response moderated
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
ucme's avatar

I’ve never seen that, inaccurate/ignorant responses to a given subject, I really haven’t.
It does seem however, that some folk eagerly anticipate threads that turn hostile/aggressive & relish the prospect of hurling shit, whether deserved or not.
It’s certainly noticeable that “discussions” that manifest into free for all’s, do seem to garner a helluva lot of responses.

wundayatta's avatar

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

ucme's avatar

Was that directed my way @wundayatta? Better to use names, avoids confusion see.
If so, then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Simply an observation of one of the more negative traits among some of us here. Any such behaviour thrown my way is largely ignored for the worthless shit that it is. I genuinely couldn’t care less, I only ask just so we’re clear.

syz's avatar

Wow. Just “wow”.

edit: Nope, can’t do it. I just can’t stop there.

I mean let’s be serious for a second. They only know what others told them.

And I suppose God himself appeared and instructed you on Christianity? No? Oh, wait, you learned about it from your Sunday school teachers and your preachers and your parents – you know, others. Same way I did. I also read the Bible. All of it. And I thought about it, and thought about all that I had been taught, and I decided that it was clearly bunk.

Wow.

jerv's avatar

I have heard it said that if you want to turn someone into an Atheist, make them read the Bible.

wundayatta's avatar

@ucme If it isn’t directed to anyone specifically, then it is directed to the OP. That is my understanding of the conventions on fluther. I do understand your confusion, though. It has happened to me, too. I generally ask before responding.

Sorry if I made you feel maligned. You are not the the subject there.

Dog's avatar

[Mod Says:] PLEASE do not hint at the identity of, or name other users.

Recently we have seen two cases where there were a lot of hurt feelings. FOR THIS REASON it is against our policy to name others or even hint at the identity.

Please respect the privacy of your fellow jellies.

Thanks!

Hibernate's avatar

Now let me explain. I’m talking about simple things. Let’s take it from the start.
Knowing how to pilot an airplane doesn’t mean you are a pilot.
Knowing how to write doesn’t mean you are successful writer.
Knowing GLIMPSES from what Christianity stands for doesn’t mean you know everything there is about Christianity.

Don’t you see how personal you guys take the above statements. It’s just perfect. Denying it doesn’t really matter in this situation.

Might be because people want validation or their opinions heard. Being a Christian is something you experiment ALL your life and you learn new things about it all your life yet there comes an atheist claiming to know more about it than a Christian. What do they base their statements on? Maybe in their head they think it’s true but it’s pure fantasy :)

Might have some information about it but not inside knowledge. Christianity is all about the relation with God. If one doesn’t have it he lacks most the important informations.
Jeremiah 33 3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things which you have not known.
How does an atheist gets his answers when he has to relationship with God. He does not believe in Him so where does he comes with his insight/knowledge ?

@johnpowell No. I don’;t care they challenge my faith. I mind because most of the people here claim to know more than a true Christian. I believe I asked only 3 or 4 religious questions. I did however replied in other religious question where the “drama” started. You don’t really participate there so why do you do it now. No, I don’t mean you shouldn’t I just say you don’t care there .. why do you care now?

@JLeslie I never said I want to control your life yet I’ve seen you several times speculating what I should do/act/say in a lot of situations. You might know a few things but you don’t know all of them. So in the end they are only speculations.

@zensky I hear you but I won’t agree with the statement of being a stupid factor. Why? because in time others will grow to believe these “non-factors” actually have a clue about what Christianity is.

@everephebe no. It’s much more simple than that. “Made you look” actually means you took time to access my profile. I made you look :)

I rest my case. Ignorance is bliss.

SpatzieLover's avatar

How does an atheist gets his answers when he has to relationship with God. He does not believe in Him so where does he comes with his insight/knowledge ?

Are you joking @Hibernate? Several people responded above that they were raised believers. They have knowledge from both sides. You do not.

Hibernate's avatar

I don’t have insight about what being an atheist means. But if someone is raised with Christian principles and does not follow them then that means the teachers didn’t bother to teach him correctly and if they left Christianity it doesn’t mean they know EVERYTHING there is to know about this.

Oh wait. I’;m sorry. They were raised with those principles till the age of 15/16. How much of that they remember? They rebelled and guess what. It was all in vain. It does not interest me what someone remembers from when he was a kid and when he/she did not understood what they were being taught.

SpatzieLover's avatar

Here’s another example of you feeling attacked. This is not an attack. It is a discussion.

Hibernate's avatar

No. That’s not it. Might seem that way but it’s not. Again you speculate over how/what I feel.
Those that I bother to flag as attacks get moderated.

And btw you posted it in the wrong thread. We weren’t talking about attacks here.

syz's avatar

@Hibernate You are missing the point. Again. While asserting that atheists don’t know what they’re talking about, you are stating that you do. Are you truly incapable of seeing that you are that which you preach against?

Hibernate's avatar

@syz I beg to differ. I am a Christian and I know what I stand for. And when I see another making assumptions and speculating they know more than me it annoys me.

syz's avatar

Good grief, man!! Look at your sentence!!

tinyfaery's avatar

Bwahahaha.

This is becoming quite amusing.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hibernate But many atheists—maybe even most of those you encounter—were Christian once, and they knew what they stood for, too. If I may use my own case, I was not merely raised in a Christian household. I went so far as to train for the clergy and was well past the age of 15/16 when I gave it all up. I’ve also continued to study theology, philosophy of religion, and comparative religion after becoming non-religious. I could probably write my dissertation on some of these issues if I wanted to do so.

It is simply absurd to suggest I don’t know what I’m talking about, and I’m not even close to the most informed atheist out there. Yes, there are some ill-informed atheists. There are also ill-informed theists. It happens. But neither fact justifies sweeping generalizations.

Strictly speaking, I am not an atheist. I am an apatheist. But you’ve refused to accept the distinction in the past, so I’ll just leave it at that.

syz's avatar

<bangs head on desk> I’m done with this farce. I’ve had more scintillating conversations with my cat.

Mariah's avatar

Do you need to be a pilot to talk about airplanes?
Do you need to be a successful writer to talk about writing?

ucme's avatar

@wundayatta Thanks for clearing that up, it is easily done when dealing with the written word
As I say, I didn’t believe it could have been because it wouldn’t have mades sense.
Cheers anyway.

Hibernate's avatar

@syz whenever someone ridicules me he/she does it because my grammar sucks. What’s left when the grammar is perfect? DO you feel threatened in some way or insecure ? Is this your power drive?
@tinyfaery yes. It’s amusing to debate something in another language. I’d love to see you try it.

@Mariah you don’t need to be a pilot to TALK about planes but 95% of the time you need need to be one to actually pilot a plane. You don’t need to be a successful write to talk about writing but you need to know a lot before start writing or else you’ll end up with just a blog of memoirs .

@SavoirFaire since the age of the majority here is ~30 I have my doubts when they state they know what Christianity stands for. As a kid you just do it because others tell you to do them. But only after you can think them for yourself then you can understand what’s real and what’s not. Since most decided to become atheists after the teenage years I won’t accept their facts/statements since they are really ill-informed.

Never forget this question wasn’t ALL about this. The question popped out that way but I added other points for discussion to it. Seems most only like to chit-chat about religion. I find it weird. Not believing yet talking about it constantly. Makes me wonder.

zensky's avatar

Oy, I’m glad I’m neither an atheist nor a Christian. I’m just getting a headache.

Mariah's avatar

@Hibernate But aren’t we talking about talking? My point is, you don’t need to be a pilot to talk about airplanes, nor do you need to be a Christian to talk about Christianity. Especially on a website like Fluther. After all, the banner at the top says “everyone’s an expert,” not “everyone is only qualified to discuss topics that they are professionally educated on.”

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate

@JLeslie I never said I want to control your life yet I’ve seen you several times speculating what I should do/act/say in a lot of situations. You might know a few things but you don’t know all of them. So in the end they are only speculations.

Huh? I never said you personally are trying to control my life, I was talking about Christians who want to make laws to inhibit people’s ability to pursue happiness or prevent them from having all the same civil liberties. See, you are taking my generalizations about Christians as a voting block here in my country, and thinking I am saying every single Christian, including you wants to control my life, I don’t think that at all. I even specifically pointed out there are two on fluther who I never feel are trying to push their belief system on me or anyone else. There are more than just those two of course, but they stand out in my mind. I think I remember you don’t live in America, so it might not be as big an issue in your country.

You think I think I know everything? Are you kidding me. All over fluther I write how I don’t know things. The last question I wrote I said I am fairly ignorant about History and International affairs, or something like that. A question I had about Hong Kong. I know we have dissagreed a few times, and as I think of those I probably did come across as thinking I knew better about the situation, neither of which was a religious conversation, but so what? You also seemed to think you were right and I was wrong. As far as religion goes, I just don’t remember where I might have speculated something as you put it. Almost every Christian question of mine, and I ask a lot, is because I want to know how Christians think about a particular topic. Not to change their mind, or berate them, but so I can learn. Right there, if you go through my questions, you see how I am admitting I do not know how Christians think on every topic. I don’t presume. I try not to assume, or I try to admit I am making an assumption that might be incorrect. I agree with many Christian beliefs and teaching from the bible, and then there are many things I disagree with. It is not black and white. And, as I said above, I don’t think all Christians have one mind like robots, not at all.

DominicX's avatar

@Hibernate So, I guess the lesson that can be learned from your response to @Mariah is that you need to be a Christian to be a Christian. Okay, cool. That’s not we’re talking about here; we’re talking about TALKING ABOUT it.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate

I did a search, here are bunches of my Christian questions.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate Is it that you simply don’t want people to talk about Christianity? I have no problem with people talking about Judaism or atheism. If they are wrong, I am glad I have the opportunity to correct them; if they are interested, I am glad I have the opportunity to answer their questions. I don’t get it.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hibernate As usual, your response contradicts your original claim. Moreover, it ignores the fact that one can understand Christianity without being a Christian. Nor is it at all clear to me what your claim that most atheists decided to leave religion behind after their teenage years amounts to.

For one thing, “after the teenage years” is awfully vague. Perhaps you mean “as a result of their teenage years”? If so, your statement seems demonstrably false. There are many “late-in-life” atheists, so it’s not necessarily a rebellious thing. Moreover, “rebellious atheists” tend to go back to their religion within a few years. So if you are correct in your age estimates, those who could be explained as rebels should have reverted by now.

It seems, then, that you are the one who does not know what he is talking about. I suppose that means you should stop arguing about it now. I guess we’ll figure out whether or not you’re a giant hypocrite or not by whether or not you choose to reply. My bet is that you won’t be able to stay away.

Kardamom's avatar

@Hibernate you just said, “I am a Christian and I know what I stand for.” That’s fine, but you seem to think that other people who consider themselves to be Christians do not know what they stand for or just aren’t doing it right (whatever that means).

Can you please direct me to the handbook that tells Christians exactly how they should act and how they should feel and what they should stand for? It clearly isn’t the Bible. If it was, then there would not be so many factions of Christianity, nor would there be people who do not belong to any organized religions that still consider themselves to be Christians.

Do you believe that any of the following groups are true Christians? Roman Catholics, American Catholics, Baptists, Unitarians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Mormons, Presbeterians, Greek Orthodox Christians, Russian Orthodox Christians, Methodists, Followers of the Church of Christ, Fundamentalist Born Again Christians, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Quakers, The Amish, Shakers, Puritans? And if not, why not? Because all of the people in these Christian denominations believe with every fiber of their being that they are true Christians just like you do. But each group has a very different idea of what it is to be a true Christian.

Also, what would you say to Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists, who also believe with every fiber of their being that their religious beliefs are 100% true and correct? How do you explain that??? Is God playing a cruel trick on those people?

Michael_Huntington's avatar

Most don’t have a clue about what actually being a Christian means
Waiter! This no true scotsman fallacy is stale!

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
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FutureMemory's avatar

I rest my case. Ignorance is bliss.

LOL

whitetigress's avatar

Most don’t understand that being a Christian involves a lot of hardwork, desire and determination. It’s a working progress, through out life. As a matter of fact, a lot of Christians don’t understand that being a Christian is a working progress period. I think for an atheist their mind is already made up, so anything a Christian believes in doesn’t pertain to an atheists logic. (When it comes to the subject matter of believing or not believing)

Hibernate's avatar

Thank you ALL for you useful insight and your thoughts about the first detail given.

Now try to talk about the others a bit too.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate I just reread your full question. Why focus on the people who are rude, I agree that happens sometimes, and focus on the people who are curious and simpy questioning? I really feel Christians many times don’t want to be questioned. The religion itself seems to dissuade questioning, and I see that behavior and personality in many Christians I know. Not the majority of Christians I know, but many. As opposed to Jews or athiests, some of who previously were Christians. I only talkabout Christianity a lot because I am surrounded by it. I have an acquaintance who is religious, and a Christian, and politically conservative, who went to a liberal college. She said during religious and political discussions, which she didn’t seem offended by in any way I should say, many times the liberals wanted to know why, why did she believe what she believed or why did she think what she thought, or how did she come to a particular opinion. She said to me she would answer, “because that’s how I feel,” or believe or my opinion, or whichever wording she used. So, again, she is not looking for debate, sometimes seen as, or used synonomously with, arguing. She is willing to trade opinions, but not really debate.

Is that it? Or am I competely off? You prefer your beliefs, not just religious, but also how you think about various situations, you don’t want your opinion questioned? Just accepted as an opinion. I don’t mean that you insist everyone agree with you, I just mean maybe you don’t want a debate about it.

jerv's avatar

@whitetigress I think for many Christians, their mind is already made up, so anything a non-Christian believes in doesn’t pertain to their logic either. Try explaining how the original Bible was not written in English and some will argue otherwise despite the facts/evidence against them; after all, what do us heretics know about the Bible, eh?
That door swings both ways.

cazzie's avatar

Anyone say this yet? ‘Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.’

If you don’t want an atheist’s opinion, create your own Christian Q & A site, or join one that already exists, then you don’t have to read about what we think. I am not a vegetarian either, but I still like veggies.

www.christiananswers.net/
www.gotquestions.org
www.getchristiananswers.com

Kardamom's avatar

@cazzie Good call.

And thank God (or thank goodness) because otherwise, I would not be able to share this recipe for Roasted Vegetable and Wine Sauce with you.

jerv's avatar

@cazzie Yes, for when you want nice answers, even if they are probably incorrect.

Of course, sometimes who/where an answer comes from is more important than it’s accuracy or veracity; it hat were not true, then Fox news would be out of business.

Hibernate's avatar

@cazzie I didn’t ask religious questions yet a lot of atheists that I saw here like to talk about it. It’s weird. Believing in nothing and liking to talk about something they find absurd.

Hibernate's avatar

Anyway thanks for the discussion and replies ^^

jerv's avatar

@Hibernate Saying that Atheists believe in nothing borders on offensive. While some Theists say that merely to indicate that Atheists do not believe in a higher power, others say that in order to imply… nay, state that Atheists are amoral, dishonorable pedophiles who are into ritual sacrifice and all sorts of other debauchery; that they don’t believe in right, honor, decency… that they truly believe in nothing.

While you may have meant it in the first sense, enough use it in the second sense that you may have accidentally insulted a lot of people. Just saying ;)

DominicX's avatar

@Hibernate Atheists like to talk about religion because they’re surrounded by religion and many major issues affecting the world involve religion. Not to mention religion is interesting, even if you don’t believe in it.

Kardamom's avatar

@Hibernate You claim not to ask religious questions, but yet This is in your list of Q’s. Oh yeah, and This One. And the the thread we are all on right now is a religious question. And many of your replies on other people’s threads are religiously charged. On the first question you actually told people NOT to bother to reply unless they were Christians! Do you really think that other people from other religions, or even people who don’t subscribe to any particular religion don’t pray? And like @cazzie asked you, if you don’t want to let the rest of the Fluther members participate in Fluther Q’s, then why don’t you post your questions on a Christian website, instead of on Fluther?

The reason most atheists like to talk about Christianity and religion is two-fold. The first is Free Speech . All of us have the right of free speech in the U.S. and we almost have the full rights of free speech on Fluther, except for a few specific reasons that are pointed out in the Guidelines (and another one that is being weighed for the pros and cons, as we speak).

The other reason is Intelligent Discourse. If atheists or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or anybody else sees a statement (sometimes veiled in the form of a Question) that doesn’t make logical sense or seems un-reasonable or appears to be unfairly exclusionary, people are going to discuss it. You should not only be prepared for that, you should expect it.

I am a female, vegetarian from the U.S. but I do believe that does not exclude me from talking about or asking questions about males or meat or Sweden if I want to and have something to add to the discussion. And believe it or not, just because I’m not a man, and don’t eat meat and don’t live in Sweden, I am not ignorant about those subjects.

Maybe you should ask yourself your own question: How come people [here on Fluther] like to talk/debate/argue so much about things they don’t understand or don’t have a clue about?

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hibernate A full 89 of the 184 words in your details section are about religion. That’s nearly half. If you don’t think this question is framed in terms of religious debates, you need to go back and read your own question.

Hibernate's avatar

@jerv when I said “nothing” it was about religious ubjects. One can be moral even without a God.
@Kardamom I did not state I NEVER asked a religious question. All the If I’ll ever, if I’ll never is beyond the point.
@SavoirFaire that’s because I said “when I was picturing this question that subject came to my mind” but later I offered other details which YOU people chose not to follow in the discussion.

Hibernate's avatar

And I already said thanks. For me this discussion is closed. Why do you keep continuing to debate it? If you want to continue talk with one another not to me.

Thank you.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hibernate If this discussion is closed for you, why do you keep responding (as I predicted you would)? You asked the question in a way that suggested the discussion topic that took place. If you didn’t want it to go in this direction, you should have written a better question. When you front load your description with 89 words of pure ignorance, people are going to correct you.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate If you don’t want atheists answering your religious questions be sure to mention it in the question. I am sure you will still get a few, especially those atheists who were previously theists, but it should reduce the number.

HungryGuy's avatar

Some atheists oppose religion because some religions want to impose their rules on everybody. When some religious people impose their rules on the non-religious, that gives the non-religious people all the “clues” they need to speak out against that religion.

Hibernate's avatar

@SavoirFaire just because you waited for a rerun but that just won’t come. I would have expected more from a staff member; guess what? You are the one who’s instigating. I’m sure you wouldn’t have expected that.

@JLeslie I did mentioned in a few questions I’m not interested in atheists point of views [for other questions] yet they did not want to take notice so excuse me.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hibernate Yeah, there are always jellies who don’t read the details, or still answer, I have been guilty of it myself that’s for sure. But, still it usually helps somewhat, not always. I know how frustrating it can be for a Q to go off on some tangent you aren’t looking for, it has happened to all of us.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hibernate I’m afraid I don’t follow your response. I have responded to your question and to your posts, but I don’t see what I have instigated other than a discussion.

Response moderated
Hibernate's avatar

You guys love the drama. You can’t get it when it over. You can’t stop. Period.

So I’ll just let you have any X final words you want and unfollow my own question and maybe you can have your whatever chat you wanted to have.

Dog's avatar

@HungryGuy If you have an issue with another user please flag what you are discussing rather than publicly accusing them of trolling across the web site. Nobody is above the rules here, even mods like myself. We do not show favoritism. If you feel more comfortable going straight to the top then please contact @augustlan directly.

Thanks!

jerv's avatar

@Hibernate You opened Pandora’s box.

And thank you for clarifying what you meant. I figured you didn’t mean offense; I just wanted to make you aware that some do use that phrase with intent to defame.

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