Do you feel the soldiers fighting for us in Vietnam deserved more support?

As a Vietnam veteran, I have to say that indeed we did. Especially for the poor draftees, most of whom would rather have been almost anywhere else, some support from the folks back home would have really helped. I was a volunteer, and the “baby-killer” insults and being spit on were bad enough for me. They were lots worse for those who were drafted.

It was a sad, sad time in our history.

Absolutely.

The Vietnam war was so controversial, and yes, I do feel for the lack of support, however, my thinking is that ANY war, since the dawn of time, has been fraught with polarized views, terrible personal loss and trauma for all soldiers, citizens and their families on every side of the war coin.

The Civil war was a tragic war as well, terrible, terrible losses of human life, WW1 & WW2…on & on.

In the grand scheme of things I don’t think that any war has been better or worse than another.

War is war and the carnage on every level, mental, emotional and physical carries a tremendous amount of suffering.

Of course. The soldiers are different than the people that start the wars.

Yes, especially since it was a draft.

It raises an interesting question though about refusing to fight when a soldier does not believe in a specific war or cause. No matter what I think the majority of soldiers feel they are being patriotic and fighting for their country, their community, their family. Think about it like this, there were young men in the German Army, Nazi’s, who were proud Germans, but who did not agree with the extemination of fellow citizens. I am not directly comparing an American soldier during Vietnam to a German soldier during WWII, but there is a little bit of an analogy that can be found, in that soldiers want to help their country, willing to put their life on the line, or forced to. Here in the south we see it, people very proud of their ancestors who fought in the civil war. They were fighting for slavery and seccession. It’s almost odd to be proud of wanting to separate from the union and then walk around being proud to be American to the point of accusing others of not being patriotic enough.

To sum up I think the issue is very complicated actually, but no matter what I think how our soldiers were treated when they came home from Vietnam was horrific and embarrassing.

We’re asking someone to put their life on the line for us. There’s not enough support in the world to make up for that.

Hell, yeah. And it would have been nice if the government had had a better support system in place to care for the ones that came home. VA situations are appalling, (granted, not all of them, I have known some VA workers that went the extra miles to help our vets but in general pretty awful) the government refused to recognize the long term ramifications of some of their actions (Agent Orange, anybody?) and still refuses to extend deserved benefits to some vets or their families. personal for me, to a degree. Not as much as the Captain, but I’ve lost some to what I believe is the government’s gross negligence.)

I have to agree with @JilltheTooth that all too often VA can many times be inadequate. We also need to be better at soldiers transitioning back to private life. Not just the psychological impact of war, which we hear about a lot, but also we need to keep in mind that many enlisted men volunteer right out of high school. They need to go through the difficulties of finding a job in the private sector.

I think that the returning draftees did not get a very good deal considering the hand they were dealt.
That being said, and without wanting to step on anyones toes, I still object to the characterization of the military fighting “for us” in Vietnam. I did not believe it then and still do not now. I do not know what an individual soldier was actually fighting for, I have heard that most are fighting for their fellow members of the outfit, but since I did not believe the reasons for the war given by the government propaganda machine (Domino Theory, for Democracy, the Vietnamese people, etc). I still have to ask what they were actually fighting for?

The people who resisted fighting that war were heroes to me. How could I support the anti-heroes?

If a war is wrong, it seems to me, then it is incumbent on us all to do everything we can to prevent it. I accept that people believe they are being patriotic when they volunteer to fight in these wars, but I do not think they are “serving” their country. Their country would be far better served if they refused to fight in these wars.

Perhaps they do not agree that they are doing the wrong thing. In that case, I don’t think anyone who thinks the way I do should have to support them. Perhaps they do not know they are doing the wrong thing. In that case I think they deserve our support, but primarily with education so they will, I hope, become conscientious objectors.

In the Vietnam war, many people did not support the war and understood that individual soldiers are still responsible for their own behavior, even if they are doing what their government tells them to do. These days, there are a number of people who do not support the war who also do not believe the soldiers are responsible for their behavior. They believe the government shoulders all the responsibility. The soldiers are as responsible for the conduct of the war as those who send them into the war. Even more so today, because all soldiers choose to enter these wars, thus demonstrating their support for the cause.

@wundayatta

I agree. I’m just grateful I haven’t had to face a child of mine wanting to enlist in the military and, as far as being drafted, I’d spend my last dollar to hide them forever.

Soldiers should never be blamed for obeying orders and deserve all the support they need. Warriors on the field of battle must never be dragged into politics. I do hope however that when a civilian protests against a war, a soldier does not assume right away that it is an attack on them.

And the ones that were drafted, @wundayatta ? The choices they made to serve rather than run weren’t easy. Personally, I reserve my judgement in cases like that when I haven’t been put in that position. And what about the ones that enlisted during peacetime? The ones that saw that joining the military allowed a better life for their families, the ones without an education that saw opportunities that otherwise would not have been available? Do you judge them harshly also? Would it have been more honorable for them to blow off the oaths they swore? It’s easy to have lofty principles when they’re not tested.

@Coloma My mother always said that if anyone was going to kill me it was going to be her; that she had earned it.

In my youth, I was one of the protesters who wore a black arm band to symbolize my protest against the war. But, I never realized the affect it would have on those soldiers fighting for us. I would handle it differently if I had to do it all over again. I would still be against the war, but I would reach out to the soldiers who were instructed to fight for their country. I didn’t agree with our invading Iraq, but I showed support for our troops. It took the wisdom of age to come to that conclusion.

@JilltheTooth I wouldn’t say I’m judging them harshly. I’m not even sure I’m judging them in a way that is any different from I judge anyone. The military does leave a mark on people. For some it’s somewhat helpful, and for others its mark is lasting harm. But I don’t trust military folks any more than I trust cops. A military person has to show me that their attitude towards people has grown since they got out of the service, or that they never liked the model for treating people, nor the work they had to do.

I do understand there are many reasons for their choices. I do understand that many people are grateful for them and for their sacrifices.

I just happen to think it’s the wrong sacrifice. But it’s no worse a choice than any of the other ill-advised choices many people make in life. I’m sure I’ve done things that other people would consider just as stupid… or far more stupid. I do have my prejudices, and I’d like to think they are based on more than a lingering hatred of what my country did in Vietnam. Some people refused to support the war. They refused to participate. Like I said, I think they are heroes.

As far as the draft is concerned, I admire those who voted with their feet. Personally, I would have gone the CO route. In fact, I sent in an application for CO status. But the war had ended by then, and it didn’t matter. They denied my request and I didn’t bother to appeal it.

@comity : I was in my midteens for the time of most of the protests, But I also protested to the best of my abilities, articles against the war in the school newspaper, small campus “upsets”, stuff like that. Because it hit pretty close to home, however, I never lost sight of the fact that there were a lot of young men put in untenable positions. It was awful.

Again, @wundayatta , easy to say ” I admire those who voted with their feet.” Sure. So do I. The ones who voted with their feet that I knew, however, had the support of their families, and/or the money to pull it off. I also knew guys who went for CO status, but that was not usually granted. I admire the ones who had to make some of the hardest choices, even if it meant that they had to participate in things that they abhorred. It’s never so black and white.

I have family members on all sides who both volunteered and were drafted, all of them have said they felt abandoned to a degree once deployed.

@CaptainHarley A little late, but nevertheless, heartfelt. Many thanks for the time and effort you gave to our country during the Vietnam War. We are forever grateful.

I assume you mean post-service support. A lot of you know that I’m pretty anti-war, and as such consider what war-mongers subject soldiers to as being criminal. They need support to get over that shit. I know some vets don’t like this sentiment, but I think soldiers are, in a sense, victims.

@incendiary_dan I understand how you feel about war, but the soldiers were following orders and supporting their county’s efforts. IMHO They’re good guys who deserve a thank you for their service. Instead many came back broken and treated poorly. Sad!

@comity Totally. Did I say anything contrary?

@incendiary_dan Sorry! Just wanted to emphasize a thank you that Vietnam Vets never got . Criticism not intended.

@comity They didn’t have to follow orders.

”I was only following orders,” has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn’t work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

Just following orders is not a good excuse for wrong action. We should not be appreciating people just because they know how to follow orders. Just being in the military does not relieve you of your duty to think for yourself, especially about moral issues. The Vietnam war was an immoral war, and every soldier who saw that had a duty to absent themselves from the war. Those who would not or could not see it do not deserve our thanks for failing to use their brains.

The same is true for the current wars this nation is stupidly and immorally fighting. Is it moral and upstanding to fight a war that is hurting one’s nation? Frankly, I think it’s unpatriotic in the extreme.

People think it’s a great thing to thank people for their service, but when their service makes us all worse off, what are we thanking them for? Thanks for sticking a stake in the economy? Thanks for following stupid orders? Thanks for killing people who didn’t need to be killed just to appease the rich people in this country? Thanks for unthinkingly doing your duty?

I don’t buy it. I think everyone has a duty to stand up for what they think is right. And if we disagree on what we think is right, as many people do, I don’t think I am required to admire you or thank you for doing something you thought was right when I think it is very harmful.

@comity Cool, just checking.

@wundayatta I was thinking of posting a response to that effect. But to a certain extent, I don’t blame soldiers following orders as much as I would someone else doing something horrific. Part of basic training is conditioning to teach them to follow orders without question, particularly when things get heated. As such, I have special respect for those that defy orders.

@Wundayatta Just curious, what were the consequences of not following orders? Also, I was against the war as an ultra liberal. My husband wasn’t and fought in the Marines. Our country was pretty divided as I remember. I couldn’t possibly compare the Vietnam war to Nazi Germany when many members of my mother’s family were killed in gas chambers because of their religious beliefs!

Please tell me, @wundayatta , that you are not so naive as to compare the legal defense tricks of Nazis in clean courtrooms to the young men in the jungles of South East Asia far from home with no one to rely on but the other members of their units? Your comparison is egregious.

@wundayatta I totally understand that, but I think it’s also naive to actually do such a thing, but it also depends on the person. For example, to some the military is also a job that helps feed them and/or their family. Dissent such as what you mentioned can and will be crushed pretty quickly, regardless of how steely eyed one is.

I have to leave this question. Otherwise I will say something I’ll deeply regret.

@CaptainHarley I understand!

I wonder how many of the soldiers disagreed with the Vietnam war while they were fighting it? I have seen some interesting interviews with some authors and journalists about the Iraqi war, and how the soldiers thought about it. It was more like a job, and some of them looked for ward to something happening, even if it was gunfire, becaise there was so much down town, boredom. I wouldn’t dare compare Iraq to Vietnam regarding the type of fighting the soldiers endure, but it made me realize I have no idea what is in the minds of the soldiers. I too gave the Nazi example above, just thinking out loud, it is a quandary, because soldiers need to be good at following orders, it is safer for the unit, and the troops themselves, but we also want our citizens, including our soldiers, to stand up against the military/government when we see something we know is not right. This is why we fight for the right to bear arms isn’t it? Not only to protect ourselves against the mugger in the street, but also because if our government turns on its own citizens we can form a militia. There is almost an irony that some of the most committed people I know to the military and the country, are the same people who constantly question the integrity of the federal government.

I was always anti-war, but pro-soldier.
I got a lot of hate from both sides for that position.

I like that position ‘cause I feel the same way.

The “war” in Vietnam was a huge mistake & it was all politics. And because it was basically fought by draftees, it was terrible for them. They did not deserve the way they were treated when they came home. I lost several members of my senior high school classmates. Some of the letters that they wrote to me still make me cry when I think about them.

@JilltheTooth When you are out in the middle of the jungle, orders hardly matter. Everyone is pretty much trying to stay alive and they depend on their buddies to do that. But they did some not following orders. A lot more officers were fragged in that war than in most others. A number of soldiers didn’t see the point.

What I wish, though, is that they had understood from the beginning what was going on—the history and politics of it, and had stopped following orders before they ever went to Vietnam. But any time along they would stop is fine with me.

I can see that for many men, the only thing they could think of doing was to keep their heads low and do what they were being forced to do under great pressure and get out of it as soon as possible. Should people be honored for that? I don’t know. Should they be dishonored for it? I don’t think so.

They weren’t doing a service to their country, though. Following orders is not a service. It’s just giving up your right to think, which, of course, is what it means to be in the armed services—at the beginning, anyway. But the whole mechanism of the armed services makes me feel very sad because it is a sign of the failure of our government to solve problems.

@wundayatta I can’t relate to your answer, I don’t believe in war, but if we were to be attacked should the soldiers follow orders to protect us? There comes a time…........

I do feel the soldiers returning home from VietNam deserved more support. I think these men and women still deserve more support.

@wundayatta I really think it is wrong to vilify these people just because you don’t like war. I am fervently anti-war, but are you really arguing that even those soldiers who were drafted do not deserve respect or support because they had no choice but to fight in this war? I had one uncle who signed up and fought in Viet Nam and another who starved himself under a doctor’s supervision in order to be too skinny to be drafted. I’ll be honest, I respect them both. I am wondering how you feel about folks such as Ron Kovic who, after his tour, became a loud voice in the anti-war movement. Does he represent the best of both sides to you, or is he just another lemming?

I don’t think of any of our soldiers as lemmings, but then again my personality is such that I also see the positive . My husband is a conservative, fought in Vietnam and listens to Rush Limbaugh, and I a die hard liberal who supported and worked for President Kennedy’s and President Obama’s campaigns. If hubby and I can get along without trashing, extreme anger, hostility, anyone can. One can always find the good in the other and my hubby is pretty terrific, in other respects that is ; )

@comity Nicely said.

@SuperMouse And Adam Kokesh. I loved his demonstration at the Jefferson Memorial.

@comity just to clarify, I do not think of soldiers as lemmings. I was referring to @wundayatta‘s declaration that obeying orders is giving up one’s right to think.

@Blackberry thanks for the link, I had not heard of Kokesh before!

@SuperMouse Thanks and sorry! Haven’t finished my first cup of coffee to wake me up.

@comity no apology necessary, thanks for giving me the chance to clarify. Enjoy that coffee!

You’re all lemmings, and so am I.

Seriously though, most people are. Just a sad truth of the current state of our society.

@incendiary dan Sad that you feel like that. Most people I know arn’t!

@comity I highly doubt that.

Actually, @incendiary_dan , she may have you there. Think about it. She’s from a generation that grew up without the kind of media blitzing that has homogenized the thought patterns of those that were exposed to it, the last decade or so. She probably knows lots more “non-lemmings” than most young people. Assuming, of course, that a large portion of her friends and acquaintances are her age. I’m younger than @comity , and I’ve seen a huge shift in such things in my lifetime….

@JilltheTooth When I say my most of my friends are younger than I am, I’m talking about being in their late 50s and 60s. You’re right. We didn’t grow up with media blitzing as you call it, and most people I know really arn’t lemmings. Honestly!!

@comity : I’m in the upper register of my 50s, so I get it.

@ incendiary dan One more thing. If the people I interact with were lemmings they would join me on Fluther, but they choose not to!

It was actually the people who refused to be lemmings and rose up against our involvement in Viet Nam who finally got our troops home.

Let me try to explain how my thinking goes on this. Maybe it’s as simple as following orders is not an excuse. If your nation asks you to do the wrong thing, I think you should not follow those orders. I understand that they are trained to follow orders, but I don’t think they are required to give up their ability to think.

It requires knowledge to understand a critique of our nation’s policy with respect to Vietnam or Afghanistan. This is knowledge that many uneducated soldiers probably won’t have. Most people in the military are using it to get out of poverty and haven’t had access to decent education, or if they have, haven’t taken advantage of it.

However, ignorance of the law does not excuse you from the consequences of breaking it. I don’t think ignorance of public policy options excuses you from the moral responsibility to help our nation do the right thing.

Now we can disagree about what the right thing is, but I expect people to do what I consider to be the right thing, and if they don’t do it, I won’t support them, and I don’t understand why people think I should support them. They chose to join the military. Or they were drafted. It doesn’t matter. If drafted, they still chose to stay there instead of running or of going to jail. We always have a choice.

So, I don’t care if they were following orders or not, in my mind, they made a choice and I don’t believe in that choice, nor do I support it. I don’t think it is right to support people who did the wrong thing, even if it was under orders.

@comity When you ask me to support them, you present it as a good thing, since they didn’t make the policy. You seem to be saying that if you don’t make policy, you are doing your patriotic duty in carrying out the policy, right or wrong. I think we have a responsibility to try to do the right thing at all times, regardless of the consequences to ourselves. Can I meet that standard personally? I doubt it. But I try and I expect others to try.

We may disagree about policy, but I think our duty to do the right thing extends beyond following orders. I do not accept following orders as a reason to give up our duty to behave in a moral and ethical fashion. We can disagree about what is moral and right, and I disagree with many people here about that. But I won’t support someone who does something I think is wrong just because they are following orders.

I don’t know that everyone agrees with you as to what is wrong or right when it comes to those issues. But, can you imagine the chaos if soldiers with varying views rebel? I’m so sorry, liberal as I may be, I don’t see it your way. But that’s my right isn’t it and I won’t rebel and fight you, or stand up to you, or protest. You just see it differently than I do and that’s AOK.

It is certainly ok to see it differently. Like I said, I doubt if many people agree with me. But I wanted to try to explain the logic behind my thinking. I may be crazy, but i’m not totally crazy! ;-)

@wundayatta Not crazy, just different ideas and AOK too!

@JilltheTooth All civilized are lemmings. :P

Ah, then I’m exempt. I have been told by no less august a personage than my mother that I am totally uncivilized.

@JilltheTooth That reminds me, when are we hanging out?