Is the gay community wrong to insist that being gay is always biologically determined?

I liked her words and I stand by her self-determination. As to your question, there is no single gay community as such and we should respect how each of us affirms our sexuality. Sure, some people would like to think of it as biologically determined and that’s fine but, to me, all sexuality is a choice. Hell, the whole concept didn’t even exist a couple of centuries ago. There was same-sex desire but overnight (around 1871, according to Foucault), people with these desires became a group of ‘homosexuals’ and the others were ‘heterosexuals’. Back then people thought it was about gender inversion and now it’s the opposite. These things are socially determined and it makes no difference to me whether it’s a choice or not. No one should be discriminated against on account of their sexuality. To spend a lot of energy trying to show those assholes that your ‘deviancy’ is ‘not a choice’ is a waste of time. It always seems apologetic to me and I should apologize to no one for how I lead my life.

Being gay is a point on the continuum of human sexuality which moves from heterosexual to bisexual to gay.

I believe that a range of sexualities are possible, but that they are generally biologically determined.

Can a bisexual choose one over the other? Yes, they can. That is probably the explanation for Cnythia Nixon’s experience.

I appreciate that it makes “being gay” much easier to define for political purposes if one stands by only one cause, reason, whatever. But why on earth should there be only one absolute small box for this? I have known women that have chosen a gay life because abuses sustained during childhood made the concept of heterosexuality so abhorrent they couldn’t consider it, and women to whom it never occurred to be any other way than lesbian. I think @marinelife is right on the money with her mention of a continuum.

The issue is that for many gays it isn’t a choice, but rather a burden. Homosexuality is often something suppressed and hidden from everyone, including from homosexuals themselves. For many, homosexuality means the loss of family, friends, community, and opportunities. If given the choice, many homosexuals would choose heterosexuality, simply because it would alleviate the chaos and shame associated with homosexuality. To classify homosexuality as a choice is to indicate that homosexuals want, or don’t care about, the scorn, hate, and drama that often results.

@GladysMensch Homophobia and heterosexism exist outside of us and then are brought into us, which is unfortunate.

Seems to me that what Cynthia Nixon is describing is bisexuality. But in general, to try to pin something as complex as homosexuality on a single component seems patently ridiculous, IMO. As mentioned above, human sexuality encompasses a broad continuum – one individual’s genetics, placental exposures, social training and life experiences will never be exactly the same as another’s.

@syz Until she says she is bisexual, I don’t think people should tell her that that’s what she’s describing. It’s not helping. I identify as queer NOT bisexual and I am attracted to all genders (more to transgender people) and I see what she means.

@syz : Why would it be “bisexuality” if she is not attracted to men?

@JilltheTooth From her words “I’ve been straight” I inferred that she feels an attraction for men. Otherwise, I would think she’d say “I’ve been in denial” or “I’ve tolerated a straight relationship”, or “I didn’t know any better”.

I haven’t read the entirety of her comments, but I can sympathize with her message. For me, I consider my relationship with my same sex partner a choice. For my partner, not so much, which is why I identify as bisexual and she identifies as gay (although it seems that I am automatically classified as gay by the rest of society – fine, whatever).

Frankly, if it helps the bigoted world decide that “being made that way” means that the LGBT community gains equal rights, then I say fuck it, and by the time science proves that genetics (or whatever) play only a partial role, we’ll have had time to cement our role in society as ‘just the same as everyone else’.

The flip side of that coin would be society moving instead toward finding a “cure” or trying to prevent the “spread” of gayness, but I’d like to think that there’s no way we could move that far backwards. I could be wrong, I suppose.

I was going strictly on verb tense. “I’ve been straight” implies past tense, she describes herself as “gay” in the present. The qualities that one is attracted to in people can change over time, I simply assume that’s what she meant.

@JilltheTooth and @Simone_De_Beauvoir
I think the argument is semantics. Cynthia Nixon has had relationships with men, and women. She now prefers women. Does that make her gay, bisexual, or something else? I believe that most people define gay and straight as a clear choice of a specific gender. But how do we define a preference for one, with an option for the other? What if it’s a slight preference vs a strong preference? The spectrum of sexuality is very wide, and we don’t have commonly held terms with which to define them all.

I believe that she once felt an attraction for men and now feels an attraction for women. Sexuality is fluid for some people and it can change and I believe that it did change for her and I believe that bisexuals can choose to ignore one part of their sexuality and I believe that someone can choose to “go with the flow” if their sexuality is fluid. I do not believe, however, that someone can sit there and select what they are attracted to. If she can explain to me the mechanics of it, then I will change my mind. And I’m not sure that’s even what she’s talking about. But the way some people talk of homosexuality being a choice, you’d think that’s what they meant. That I just sat down one day and said “even though I’m attracted to girls, I’m going to choose to have the same sex give me an erection now because I want attention”.

What most homophobes seem to insist is that everyone is born straight and normal and that homosexuals “choose” the sinful path of homosexuality to get attention, because they had bad experiences with the opposite sex, or because they’re flat-out confused or misguided. It’s condescending, patronizing bullshit.

However, I do believe in the principle that it doesn’t matter how someone is gay, all that matters is that they are and that there is no problem with that.

Honestly, this kind of makes me think of people who try to insist that “cracker” is the same as the N-word while ignoring all the history and connotations behind it. Okay, on the surface, it doesn’t matter if you’re gay for any reason, choice or not, but people who tell people it’s a choice aren’t talking about validity, they’re usually implying that it makes homosexuality illegitimate, that it makes it “sinful”, and that it’s something that they can simply choose out of. They don’t think of it as fluid sexuality or bisexuality, they think of it as a horrible destructive lifestyle choice.

@GladysMensch No we don’t have enough labels and labels still matter, unfortunately. In queer theory’s history, there’s been an acceptance of queer, a backlash against queer, and it goes back and forth like this – that’s normal.

And another thing, the gay community doesn’t always insist that being gay is biologically determined. People seem to think you’re either born gay or you choose to be gay and since science hasn’t proven there’s a “gay gene”, people must choose it. But there are a lot of people who think that it could be a combination of inborn factors combined with environmental influences or that it could be entirely based on a person’s environment and upbringing. Just because a person wasn’t born gay (or born with a disposition to be gay) doesn’t mean that the only other option is that they chose it.

Interesting point. I wonder how the gay community would feel if people where tested when young and found out that they don’t have the genetics of a gay person and then those children when growing are told they are in no way gay. So they are pressured or shunned because they insist they are gay when test say they are not.

@Pandora There are some who want these tests developed or who say they already have the test…but the point is…would I believe the test over what my heart wants? no.

Not sure why anyone needs to question anyone’s statement? If someone says they are gay, does it matter in any universe why? Yes, I know that’s way oversimplifying the issue, I’m just making the point that it would be nice if such things didn’t have to be trotted out for critique and analysis, and could simply be. I don’t care if someone chooses or not. I don’t care if someone is gay or not. I just hope nobody dies because of it…...

If people actually accepted homosexuality it wouldn’t matter if it was choice or not. Too often insistence that sexual orientation is biologically determined is used in a manner that undercuts acceptance of homosexuality as a life style. Announcing that no one “chooses” to be homosexual too often serves no better purpose than smoothing over the aggression of bigots. It’s “the don’t blame him he can’t help it” of tolerance. This isn’t a defense of homosexuals, it’s just an excuse for them, because ultimately the unstated sentiment of the defense is “if they had a choice they wouldn’t be gay”.

I don’t know what determines a person’s sexual orientation. Maybe it is biological. But ultimately it shouldn’t matter. What does matter is that people except each other enough that they can respect each other for who they are, regardless of how they came to be that person. Because what’s wrong with choosing to be gay?

So I guess I agree.

I’ve been curious about this point for a while. “Being gay is not a choice” is a popular chorus I’ve been hearing since I was a kid. I understand the reasons this mantra is so important to so many people, but it’s always seemed inaccurate to me, and sort of defeatist.

If it were true that you are “born gay” then the persecution of homosexuality could easily be declared morally wrong. How could something be “sinful” or “unnatural” or “wrong” in any way if you had absolutely no control over it? “Born gay” is a powerful idea that has served us well, and has helped move public acceptance and understanding out of the stone age of 50 years ago, to a point where full legal equality is almost at hand. Even fundamentalist Christians have more or less accepted “born gay” choosing instead to flaunt their homophobia by saying that their actions are the choice that is sinful, not their inborn desires.

But it’s still not accurate. At least, not for everybody. Everyone’s tastes and sexual desires change over time: why is it so hard to believe that people should shift gender preference? It happens to many people. Some people still cling to Kinsey, saying that these people are actually bisexual, or that they are or were lying to themselves about their orientation. I call shenanigans.

Advocating for “born gay” is a cop out for those in favor of equal rights. It’s not scientifically supported, and it’s a cheap defense against the moral argument against homosexuality. I agree with @fundevogel. Clinging to “born gay” accepts the premise that there would be something wrong with homosexuality if it were a choice.

I think if Cynthia Nixon meant bisexual, she would have said bisexual. I really doubt she makes that kind of statement without choosing her words carefully, and I doubt that she’s never considered the possibility that she might be bi. I read her saying “straight” as “exclusively interested in men”, and “gay” as “exclusively interested in women”. And I really, really don’t want to tell her what she is; she’s the best judge on the planet of what’s going on in her head.

I also think she’s right on the money. Why isn’t choosing to be gay/lesbian/bi/queer just as valid a choice as choosing to be straight? A lot of times, the “it’s not a choice” thing seems to say, well, obviously, if I had a choice, heterosexual is the only valid choice. But I’m being forced against my will to be gay, so you should accept that. I’d rather say, so what if my gayness is a choice? Why wouldn’t that be totally cool? Why would anyone give a flying fuck what the genital arrangement of my chosen partners is? For that matter, why would anyone think it’s cool to tell someone who they can and cannot love for any reason other than “because one of you isn’t a consenting adult”? You should accept who I love, regardless.

I was told once (a long time ago) that the gay community in the US were arguing that being gay was biologically determined because then gay people would have more rights leagally than if it were a lifestyle choice.

I appreciate Cynthia Nixon’s statements. It shouldn’t matter how one got to be gay to determine whether gays are deserving of equal treatment under the law. Simply being human should determine that one gets equal rights.

Having said that, I would like to add some of my personal experience. I was raised in a rabidly fundamentalist Christian home. We went to church 3 times each week, and it was beat into me that homosexuals were subhuman, unlovable, and going to hell. Hearing such things repeated over and over again traumatized me, because I knew at a very young age that there was something different about me. Though, I didn’t know exactly how.

As I grew up, that different feeling took on meaning. I realized that I didn’t look at girls in the same way that my friends did. I looked at boys with a longing that I couldn’t deny. I can remember my earliest same-sex attraction at the age of nine. I did not choose to have that attraction any more than my other male friends chose to be attracted to girls.

I denied my homosexuality for decades by learning to drown it in a sea of liquor. I got married and fathered children. I lived in anguish, because I knew that I was living a lie. I fantasized about men and continued to abuse alcohol to numb myself.

Ms. Nixon states that by insisting homosexuals are born that way, we are “ceding this point to bigots.” I disagree. My personal experience is one of determinism. There is still enormous hatred in the world and in the US for homosexuals. We are bullied, harassed, denied employment, denied many rights, beaten, killed, and in some places, executed for our sexuality. Do we endure all this for a choice? Not me.

Do I endure the disapproval of my parents and their silent and sometimes verbal disgust for a choice? No, I don’t. I was born this way.

To me, that is an important distinction. It is a vital point. Homophobic people base their arguments on the idea that it’s a lifestyle choice. Calling it a lifestyle choice belittles my experience, and it makes me angry. Ms. Nixon is arguing semantics, in my view, to a group of people who want to hate and beat and kill. I personally know a man who was beaten savagely with baseball bats simply for being seen walking out of a gay bar. I personally know a man who was murdered because he identified himself as gay. I personally know a young man who was raped by another man, and his case was dropped by the local district attorney since it was male-on-male rape.

All of that because of a choice? I don’t think so.

You can talk to me all day long about the continuum of human sexuality, but until the hatred and the beatings and the killings stop, I will insist that I was born this way and that being born gay means something vitally different than choosing it.

@Hawaii_Jake A choice doesn’t mean it’s less serious than being born that way. If anything, to me, being born anything doesn’t carry throughout life in an important way…I’m just born white or in the U.S. or whatever, it doesn’t matter until I decide who I am.

I think for a very small minority of people it can be a choice. But it’s definitely not the common experience of the gay community in general.

@Hawaii_Jake I agree, and I have not had even close to the experiences that you have had.

To me, saying “being gay isn’t a choice” isn’t the same as saying “if I could choose, I’d be straight” or the same as saying “if it were a choice, homophobia would be justified”. It’s just saying that it isn’t something you can choose yourself out of. Homophobes who think that being gay is a choice want people to choose not to be gay. I’ve been approached by “well-meaning Christians” who believed that I could choose to be straight if I wanted to and I should do so and this is the reason we have “ex-gay camps” and other such nonsense.

I also disagree that fundamentalists view it as inborn. They view it as a choice because that way they don’t have to blame God for it. God doesn’t make mistakes and he doesn’t make people gay. They choose it.

Again, I agree with the idea that it being a choice wouldn’t make it wrong, but neither would it not being a choice. And I agree that it’s also a huge slap in the face to people who have endured bullying, ostracization, hatred, and bigotry to tell them that they chose that path.

@DominicX I just don’t get how choosing a sexuality is synonymous with choosing the path of discrimination – that doesn’t make any sense. They’re two different things and do not to both have to be true.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir If someone chooses a sexuality that is frowned upon and discriminated against at large, aren’t they choosing the path of discrimination?

@DominicX To me, all they’re choosing is their own path. That discrimination occurs shouldn’t be the thing they’re choosing, primarily. I think when I mean choice, I mean it’s all sort of socially constructed, rather than you wake up one morning and say ‘I choose to be gay.’ Yet, there are many many straight people who are not straight but, trust me, they choose to be straight. Are they then only doing so for protection and privilege?

I suppose so. If they’re not straight, then they’re not straight. Choosing to be straight seems like a cover up. But again, I’m not exactly clear on what it means to choose sexuality. The way I’ve understood it is to choose attraction. No one has ever been able to show me how that is possible.

And it wouldn’t be that a person in choosing to be gay is saying “I want discrimination” but they are saying “I could get out of this, but I’m not going to”. And that’s absurd.

I’m curious how the it’s a choice/I was born this way discussion would change if no one had to worry about being judged according to their orientation.

@DominicX I think there are a couple of things there. One can feel attraction but choose to repress it or ignore it, as many do because they’ve been culturally told that it’s not okay to feel those desires. People choose what is an acceptable pursuit and what is an unacceptable pursuit. So many desires are suppressed because of society. People can be attracted to men but can say they identify as a lesbian for a variety of reasons which are valid.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Oh yes, I definitely agree with that. I’m sure that happens a lot.

@fundevogel : That’s a good question. In answer, I believe the debate would disappear without the judgement.

@Hawaii_Jake I think that’s what we should aim for.

There are shades of gay.

Whether they are born that way or decide, it shouldn’t matter anyway. I noticed the debate concerning if gays are born that way turned into a reason to deny them rights. “Well, they’re just choosing to be gay, so they don’t really need to get married” type of BS.

It would make more sense to just explain that we’re ‘effing people instead of why and how people are gay. Or, we could just start asking straight people when they decided to be straight.

I did not read all the answers to your question,BUT here is my take on it,being Gay IS NOT a choice and is boilogical,BUT you do have a choice about acting on it and following that lifestyle.
I am not gay never have and never will,to say bein gay is a choice is wrong,the choice is if you want to lead that life style or surpress it ,and try and lead a normal life.(My opinion only)

@Hawaii_Jake I get what you’re saying. And I like, a lot, that Nixon didn’t say that no one was born that way, just that she wasn’t. I think for me, the problem of “all gays are born that way” isn’t that all gays are actually making a choice, it’s the idea of “all gays”, that there has to be this one box that we all fit into. For me, I don’t feel like it’s a total choice and that I just have totally free will in the matter, but I also don’t feel like I have so little agency as to have no say in the matter; there has to be some middle ground between the two extremes. I don’t feel forced against my will to have sex with other ladies. I feel like I fall in love with very specific people, and sometimes those people are men, and sometimes those people are women. But wouldn’t it be cruel to discriminate as to who someone could love based on anything else? If you keep falling in love with people from a different religious group, or people who think Plan 9 From Outer Space was legitimately the best movie of all time (and not in a kitchy, so bad it’s good kinda way), how would it be ok to say “no, you absolutely cannot fall in love with them, and we will prevent you from getting married, and we will refuse to promote you, and we will get violent and perhaps even kill you just for holding hands with that person who has bad taste in movies”? There’s just no situation in which banning someone from loving who they want to love (assuming that who they want to love is a consenting adult) and discriminating against someone because of who they love doesn’t constitute asshole behavior.

@Aethelflaed Part of the problem is that people in general want one answer. They want one explanation for homosexuality. Either it’s in-born, it’s a choice, or it’s caused by being raped or having a bad experience with the opposite sex. People don’t want there to be multiple causes because want everything to be simple and spelled out for them. There isn’t even scientific consensus as to whether it’s even possible to be born gay, so to me, saying “all gays are born gay” is a futile statement. Most people seem to think that sexuality develops based on various environmental and in-born factors. But it’s this third option that people seem to ignore completely. It’s either in-born or choice and there’s no other possible explanation.

The other problem is the differing idea of “choice”. It’s one thing to choose to ignore certain desires, to choose to follow others, or to choose to have sex. But it’s quite another to choose to have those desires in the first place. It’s the latter that most homosexuals seem to find most problematic, because of the hypocrisy in that no one assumes straight people make choices in regard to their sexuality but so many people assume that homosexuality is the result of choices.

If someone tells me “I respect your choice to be gay”, I’m not going to say anything against it, because it shows they don’t have a problem with homosexuality, but at the same time it’s an inaccurate statement.

Scientists don’t even agree on whether or not its genetic. Two independent and unbiased scientists coming up with different answers on the subject proves (to me) that there is nothing definitive to support the genetic hypothesis. Based even on the loosest form of the scientific method we can’t prove it, so why would someone claim it?

It has always been a choice. IMHO it is a bad choice, but I don’t dislike people who make that choice any more than I would expect them to dislike me because I’m a niner’s fan.

We (as logically minded adults) should be able to disagree with each other on these types of choices without turning it into a hate fest.

@digitalimpression I know I didn’t choose it. Prove that I did.

@DominicX Did you even read what I typed? I just mentioned that it cannot be proven either way. So…........................................................................... should I just make something up now or?......

Don’t be upset that I disagree with you.

Ugh, nevermind. I guess you know more about my life than I do.

@SQUEEKY2 : So, a heterosexual life is the only “normal” life and all others have to be suppressed? That’s a crock of shit.

@Aethelflaed : I understand that Ms. Nixon left open the door that some people are born gay and that she wants the right to say it’s a choice for her. I respect her choice. I think I understand what you’ve written, too, and I agree with it.

@digitalimpression : I didn’t choose to be gay. When did you choose to be straight?

Other than functions controlled by the brainstem,and reflex loops, everything a conscious human does is by choice. People who deny this are denying the nature of man, and exposing themselves to charges of being materialist, brainless bags of water and chemicals, subject to conditioning and outside control. Who could ever be proud of that?
Why not be up front and admit your preferences are by your own choosing, and thus undeniably human? In the long run, your position is stronger.

@saint Being attracted to someone isn’t something you do, it’s simply something that is. So I’m assuming you’ve chosen all your preferences. The foods you like, the people you’re attracted to, you chose them and you can choose them at will and change them whenever you want. You could just change your sexuality right now if you wanted to.

And I’m not going to admit it because it’s false. If you have the answers then prove it to me. Prove how, when, and why I chose to be gay.

@DominicX Like I said. Why decrease the value of your romantic relationships?

@saint You’re defining it as “decreasing the value”. Where does this value come from and on whose scale is it according to?

Also, I repeat: you chose your preferences. Can you change them?

@saint : My preference to make love to men is not of my own choosing. It’s something that’s beyond my conscious mind. It’s inborn in me.

Please tell me, when did you choose your sexual preference?

@Hawaii_Jake It may have been around 10th grade when Gail S. gave me blowjob in the parking lot during prom.

@saint : And you had no inkling before then that you might prefer a blow job from a girl?

@Hawaii_Jake Maybe I was a slow study, which is true in other areas of my life, but until 10th grade, I mostly thought about sports. After 10th grade, and until the service, I thought about sports, girls and fast cars. During the service, I thought about staying alive. After that, I started thinking about all sorts of things, including this question. Before you get in my shit, I am on your side. Sorry if you don’t see it that way, but lots of people on this site imaging that if you don’t read from their gospel, you must be the enemy. I do not give a shit whom you love and what you do. It’s your life to live. Save your defensiveness for somebody who disapproves of you.

@saint. I was sent to put the light of determinism into your heart.

“People who deny this are denying the nature of man, and exposing themselves to charges of being materialist, brainless bags of water and chemicals, subject to conditioning and outside control”

So, you think being a sac of chemicals and physics is so horrible of a reality that we ought to pretend it isn’t the case?

I admit your poetic description wasn’t very pleasant compared to some others you could have “chosen” to use but still, a bad consequence isn’t a good reason not to believe something.

That kind of erroneous conclusion forming has a name. In latin the term is: argumentum ad consequentiam or “Appeal to Consequences.”

@ninjacolin I was sent to put the light of determinism into your heart.
Is this an attempt to assert your authority on a subject? That has a name too. In Latin the term is argumentum ad verecundiam.

@saint : You wrote, “Other than functions controlled by the brainstem,and reflex loops, everything a conscious human does is by choice.” I disagree. I thought I pointed out that for me sexual orientation wasn’t a choice. That’s not defensive. That’s disagreement. Your statement does not match my personal experience. That’s why I question it.

@saint I just find it so interesting that you’re so about “it’s your life” and yet you’re trying to make claims about other people’s lives, namely that they chose something they didn’t.

Yes, but I really do know what’s best for you, @saint. K? Cool, glad we had this discussion. :) moving on..
..

“Other than functions controlled by the brainstem,and reflex loops, everything a conscious human does is by choice.”

No no no no. This isn’t true at all. Nothing the brain decides can be shown to be decided anywhere outside of the mechanism that IS the brain. To the best of our observational abilities, the brain is what makes decisions and choices for us. Nothing else seems to. Some people say your “soul” handles it somehow but we can’t observe these soul thingies so, until someone has some kind of useful evidence for it.. we’re just going to have to settle on the fact that Brains making decisions for us is Scientifically demonstrable and accurate and everything else is merely hearsay.

@Hawaii_Jake, @DominicX
OK guys. Suit yourselves. I really don’t have a dog in this fight. Whatever you say about it it is fine with me. See you around.

@saint.. sorry for being a jerk. I’m just having fun, not super serious or anything. ;)
I’m totally right though.. I think..

@Hawaii_Jake and @DominicX You guys are being incredibly defensive for no reason. Why is it so bad that someone disagrees with you? I don’t hate you guys. I think I’ve made that glaringly clear. You’re fine people from what I know of you…

You can talk all day about how it isn’t a choice .. but there isn’t any definitive scientific evidence to say its genetic… SO WHAT!? What is wrong with Cynthia (or any gay person) saying that its a choice?

I just find it interesting that the two gay people in this thread seem to be saying the same thing and yet somehow, we’re the ones with the problem. We’re the ones who don’t get it. We’re the ones who made some choice that we don’t know about and we just don’t fucking get it. Because who knows less about homosexuality than a homosexual? God forbid I should know my own life and know the choices I did and didn’t make. That’s why it pisses me off, @digitalimpression. You are telling me I did something that I didn’t. You are telling me I chose to be gay when I didn’t. You’re calling me a liar. I know the choices I’ve made in life and I know this was not one of them. Yet somehow your opinion about my life and my decisions supersedes my own experiences. It’s like me saying that it’s my opinion you went to Spain this summer, even if you didn’t. But don’t worry, I’m just disagreeing with you, that’s all.

Please. You’re making a claim about my life, about something that I didn’t do, and it pisses me off. I’m not a liar. Especially since the ramifications of choosing to be gay are often very negative, that they can and should choose to not be gay, that it’s a destructive choice, that it’s like choosing what outfit to put on, and that people who experience discrimination could’ve chosen their way out of it, etc.

These are the times when I honestly wish I could just choose to be straight and be done with this stupid shit. No one questions heterosexuality, no one tells them they made choices they didn’t, no one tells them they should change for the betterment of their life or to avoid Hell or whatever. Even the people who claim to be liberal and accepting about it still don’t get it. And yet I’m the one with the problem…

@digitalimpression Hate might be a stronger word than you feel is appropriate, but when you say that choosing gay is the wrong choice, it’s not exactly like you’re some accepting, open-minded person who refrains from judgment. You’re still treating GLBT people like they’re second-class citizens.

I second what @DominicX just wrote.

@DominicX and @Aethelflaed and @Hawaii_Jake

Obviously I stumbled into a quagmire that cannot be escaped. I apologize if what I’ve typed somehow offends you. It is not intended.

I have zero desire to argue with ya’ll about it. I’ve done my best to be objective about this, but it’s clear it was a waste of time.

@digitalimpression : You wrote, “It has always been a choice. IMHO it is a bad choice.” That’s supposed to be objective?

You also just wrote that your attempts to be objective were “a waste of time” implying that the other side of the debate was being less than fair. I believe that @DominicX stated it very well when he pointed out you are making assertions about our lives that are false.

I know for a fact that my sexual orientation was not a choice and that it’s not bad.

@Hawaii_Jake Ok. Congratulations.

I’ve just finished reading and this is a rather generalised observation; there are two very different types of opinions that underline a great deal of these arguments:

Everything you do in life is up to you, you choose it, you live it the way you want to.

The other:

You cannot choose anything, decisions choose us through environmental, biological and chemical means.

You can’t agree on a lot of issues if your basic philosophy of the mind is completely different. Homosexuality seems to be the most potent example of this. It’s an exercise in futility.

Maybe I’m just stating the obvious…but eh.

@Keep_on_running Nah, you’re right. Its even more futile when the topic is avoided altogether in favor of unwarranted defensiveness. But perhaps I’m just being defensive. xD

Personally, I’m proud of this Cynthia person for standing behind her comments and refusing to fold to whichever portion of the gay community it was who insisted that she change her remarks.

@Keep_on_running As far as I’m concerned, those two italicized statements are both too extreme and I don’t think they reflect most people’s beliefs. I believe you choose some things (what song to listen to, what clothes to wear, what person to have sex with), but you don’t choose other things (sexual orientation, hair color, preference for certain foods, etc.). But again, I don’t believe sexual orientation is an action; it’s not something you do. It’s just something that is.

@DominicX I understand what you’re saying, there’s supposed to be a mixture between the two in people’s minds. But, when you really get down to it, I mean if you strip everything away, what opinions society has created and drilled into us, we’re really still battling internally with; what is a free mind; how much influence do we really have over our decisions. You know the whole philosophical drill. Maybe these two lines of thought influence people’s opinions more than they think?

@Keep_on_running : The old “Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet”? (Rudyard Kipling) I certainly hope we can come to some accommodation. I truly do.

You bring up an interesting point about free will. That’s a battle that has been raging for centuries. I doubt we’ll answer it in one thread here on Fluther.

@Hawaii_Jake ”The old “Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet”? (Rudyard Kipling) I certainly hope we can come to some accommodation. I truly do.”

We are, with the help of discussions like these.

“You bring up an interesting point about free will. That’s a battle that has been raging for centuries. I doubt we’ll answer it in one thread here on Fluther.”

I know, but there is no harm in trying, hey?

For anyone who’s interested, Frank Bruni published an op-ed in today’s New York Times on the issue. I personally think it’s quite good.

@Aethelflaed Good article. I especially liked this “We don’t need to be born this way to refute the ludicrous assertion that homosexuality poses some special threat to the stability of the American family.”

and this “In a Daily Beast interview after the Times article appeared, she [Nixon] clarified that she has experienced an unforced, undeniable attraction to individuals of both sexes. In other words, she’s bisexual, not whimsical. She just happens not to like that term, she said.”

More on Nixon’s bisexuality.