Social Question

downtide's avatar

Can you answer this transsexual's dating dilemma?

Asked by downtide (23330 points ) July 12th, 2012

How would you handle this ethical dilemma?

Jane is 30 years old, attractive and single. She was born “John”, a male, and began the process of sex-transition at the age of 18. The process was completed with surgery at the age of 21. The surgery and hormone therapy have been a complete success and it is physically impossible to tell that she used to be physically male. Her legal ID has been changed to female and she is legally entitled to marry a man.

Jane has recently been asked out by Dave, who does not know anything about her medical background. Should she tell him, and if so, when?

If she confesses on the first date there is a very high probability that the relationship will proceed no further. If she waits until love has developed then Dave may find that his love for Jane overrides her confession and he may stay with her anyway. On the other hand he may be upset that she did not tell him sooner, and she risks the possibility that he may even become violent or abusive.

Does it make a difference if you are Dave? If you are Jane?

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49 Answers

thebluewaffle's avatar

I’d prefer to know straight up!

downtide's avatar

@thebluewaffle and then what would you do with that information? Would you end the relationship on the first date?

thebluewaffle's avatar

@downtide Me personally, I would find pretty put off knowing the girl used to have a dick!

I don’t honestly think I could handle it! But then again, not all people are like me.

Like you say though, I think the majority will feel like you’ve ‘held information’ from them if you divulge it at a later date….

It’s a tough call, and sadly, no right or wrong answer!

fundevogel's avatar

I think it depends on what Jane sees in Dave and what sort of chemistry they have. If they hit it off and Jane sees a potential future with Dave (whatever that might mean) I think she ought to tell him. If she doesn’t and it comes out later it’s going to look like she wasn’t completely honest with Dave which could undermine their trust. But I think it’s also important that she tell Dave or any serious potential mate because without doing so, at least in this world, it probably comes down to a fear that she will be rejected because she wasn’t born cisgendered. That’s no way to live. By telling him she gives him the opportunity to embrace her more fully, even the parts she might not be comfortable sharing. And if that’s a dealbreaker for him? Tough. Jane can do better.

The timing is important in my opinion. I probably wouldn’t share that information on a first date. I’d want someone to get to know me first as a person. I do think that it should be disclosed before things get too physical, on the off chance someone can’t deal with being with a transperson best nip it in the bud before things get to complicated.

If it isn’t anything serious with Dave? Meh. I don’t owe it to anyone to share that kind of personal information just cause we had coffee. I figure it’s like the STD talk. You want to get it out of the way before you start fooling around so you know where eachother stand before you start bumpin uglies.

Bellatrix's avatar

I think she has to be upfront. If the man isn’t able to cope with her past, it’s best she finds this out straight away rather than later on when he still might walk away and might accuse her of being deceitful. It is a part of who she is and her life before they met. I don’t think it should be a ‘first date’ conversation but it should be very soon and definitely before they become too serious or/and intimate.

fundevogel's avatar

Maybe go this route.

full disclosure: You don’t have to worry about accidental pregnancy since beneath this girlish figure beats the heart of a lion, the pancreas of a man, and the sweetest custom pussy you ever saw. But if it turns out that there is something between us, and I hope there is, you can rest assured that it’s there because I paid good money for this pussy and I think a condom is a small price to pay to keep it that way.

Aethelflaed's avatar

Is there maybe a way to sort of test the waters earlier without specifically “coming out”? Like “yeah, I volunteer for x organization; they do a lot of stuff for the queer community, especially for trans youth” (or whatever). See how he reacts, see if he has Thoughts on trans* theory or politics…

syz's avatar

A casual, just-for-fun date, I’d keep it to myself.

But I think there are still a lot of men who are unable to deal with that information. I can only speak for myself, but I’d want to know if the guy I’m going out with is open-minded enough to handle it before I became emotionally involved. If I thought there was a possibility of long term, I’d spill pretty darn early. And, yeah, the manner in which you approach the conversation would probably be really important.

Imadethisupwithnoforethought's avatar

I am on the fence enough to go down the following route, because I want this to work out for the young lady:

Get a few beers in the gentlemen. Flirt with him until he is aroused. Then do the big reveal. Prejudices are hard to overcome when you don’t know people in the impacted group. Transsexuals are still a low percentage of the population. Hell, if I went on a date with a woman, found her charming, got worked up, then she said, “btw I used to be a man”, I might be too invested in the encounter to back out.

iphigeneia's avatar

You don’t want to waste your time with someone who isn’t prepared to be in a relationship with a transsexual person, or worse, has a negative view of transsexualism. However, lots of people have never knowingly socialised with openly transsexual/other queer people, and I think that no matter their political views, their knee-jerk reaction might be to get as far away from the relationship as possible. I like @Aethelflaed‘s strategy, especially if Jane doesn’t want her medical history spread around (unfortunately, on the first couple of dates I think the focus needs to be on her personal safety rather than full disclosure). Then, if it seems there’s a chance Dave is open to the relationship, give him time to process the information and weigh his values.

mangeons's avatar

If she sees herself having any kind of future/real relationship with this guy, she should be upfront about it. If she waits until they are already deep into a relationship to tell him, he would most likely feel like she had lied to him and get extremely angry or hurt. Also, there’s the possibility of him finding out on his own (through other people or whatever means) and feeling like she is keeping things from him. It also enables her to find out what kind of person he is and whether he is accepting of who she really is.

bkcunningham's avatar

Isn’t the point of dating to get to know someone? In my dating days, there were many, many things I didn’t divulge about myself on the first date or even on the second or third date. I believe in taking it slowly and getting to know if someone can be trusted with important things about my life and my emotions. I follow that rule even now when I meet people for the first time now. I don’t automatically tell them my inner most thoughts and secrets. They might turn out to be jerks and I won’t ever see them again. Take it slowly, little steps and enjoy getting to know someone would be my advice to Jane.

mangeons's avatar

@bkcunningham Sure, there are things that you can choose not to divulge about yourself right away. But in this particular situation, it’s an extremely important aspect that could make a real difference to the other party involved. What if Jane tell him after she gets to know the guy and gets into an emotionally invested relationship with him, and then finds out that he’s completely against the whole concept and is not willing to date her anymore? It would just cause unnecessary hurt and pain for both people involved. I’d say it’s better to be upfront about it because then you definitely know where you stand.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@bkcunningham Men (and women) flipping out and feeling like they’ve been manipulated, lied to, deceived and becoming violent is a real problem.

LuckyGuy's avatar

This type of situation issue comes all up more often than you’d think. Ask women with mastectomies or men who had prostate cancer surgery and have ED issues.

Supposedly, the best choice is to tell the partner on the second date if it looks like the relationship has a chance of going further.
If you wait longer than the second date, you are guilty of manipulating the person by omission. Maybe they want children. Maybe they are not mature enough to handle the related issues. Like it or not, fair or not, your condition (tranny, mastec., prostate, etc.) matters. .
Honesty is best. If this is going to be more than a one night stand, he has a right to know. Consider this a high risk, high reward situation. If he agrees, then you have found a real keeper.

Full disclosure: I had my prostate removed and now shoot blanks.

Mariah's avatar

She should tell when she’s comfortable. A serious partner should probably know about any life-changing experiences eventually.

athenasgriffin's avatar

I don’t think she is in any way obligated to tell him until serious interest has been shown and dating is on the verge of becoming a relationship. (Also preferably before sex. It really isn’t fair for her or him if they sleep with each other and he isn’t accepting.)

ucme's avatar

Honesty is always the best policy, whatever the circumstances.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

I can only speak for myself on this one. I don’t think it would be necessary to know that Jane is a transexual on the first date. If we were to make a second date, that would represent that we are both interested in pursuing the relationship, whether as friends or potentially more.

What I feel certain about is that I would rather hear this from Jane than from someone else. I would like to think that if someone else provided this information first, then I would respond with, “And?” in a somewhat sarcastic tone. It would catch me off-guard though. It might possibly put a halt on pursuing the relationship in a romantic manner until the truth came out. I doubt that it would stop me from seeing her again.

sinscriven's avatar

It should be confessed upfront and early, that way neither person is wasting their time.

For Jane to hide that piece of info hoping that by the time she HAS to tell the truth to John is very deceptive and manipulative. It’s also naive to think that the love and attachment will override the potential revulsion because he loved Jane. John loved the Jane he perceived, when John learns the truth about Jane, then he will feel that he has no clue who Jane is at all so the emotional hook on loving her for who she is, is moot.

John will feel betrayed by Jane’s behavior and things may potentially get nasty. If not for the gender identity thing, then definitely by the complete shattering of trust.

bkcunningham's avatar

I don’t think anyone is saying to try and deceive anyone, @sinscriven. What if they go out a few times and they both realize it isn’t going any place and depart company to never see each other again? What is lost by him not knowing her any better?

What if after a few times in each other’s company Jane realizes that this man is someone she trusts with the information and explains what happened in her life and who she is inside to make a decision this major. If he can’t handle the truth, so be it. At least she is telling someone whose character she trusted to not be filled with hate. If he doesn’t want to continue the relationship, at least she has trusted this information with someone who she judges to be kind in telling her the reasons he can’t date her any more and doesn’t want to continue getting to know her.

sinscriven's avatar

@bkcunningham : Of course that wouldn’t be anyone’s intention, but it would still feel that way in John’s case if John is not openly accepting towards that.

You do make a good point about the timing, and not necessarily spilling the beans if it’s not going to work out past a few dates or not. The whole situation is kind of tricky when it comes to timing because of how much of a bombshell that kind of revelation could be when you’re trying to balance being open as reasonably possible while not leaving yourself completely vulnerable.

There most likely isn’t a right or wrong way to approach this. I just feel like, since it’s such a dealbreaker, it’s not going to matter how well things are going regardless even without than info so why not just get that out of the way, you know? If John’s not going to be cool with that, then there’s no point in wasting time with him. Dodging bullets is easier than avoiding mines.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@sinscriven The thing is, John could react badly even if Jane tells him within 15 seconds of meeting him. And John could then react by outing Jane, which then tends to lend itself to bigger life issues for Jane. So, no matter what Jane choses, there’s a pretty serious risk of massive repercussions.

bkcunningham's avatar

@downtide, how did Jane meet this chap?

fundevogel's avatar

Who’s this John? I thought we were talking about Dave.

@sinscriven “It’s also naive to think that the love and attachment will override the potential revulsion because he loved Jane. John loved the Jane he perceived, when John learns the truth about Jane, then he will feel that he has no clue who Jane is at all so the emotional hook on loving her for who she is, is moot.”

First off I don’t think anyone is suggesting Jane hold off telling until love blooms.

Secondly I personally am repulsed at the prospect of a man being so overwhelmed by finding out someone he cared for is trans that he forgets all about what it is that makes her who she is and what he loved about that. She is who she is and that doesn’t change regardless of what’s between her legs. Anyone that doesn’t get that has an incredibly childish understanding of humanity.

augustlan's avatar

I’m with the “not on the first date, but before anything serious develops” crowd.

Also:
[mod says] This is our Question of the Day!

Judi's avatar

I think that if Dave can’t accept Jane’s status from the get go he’s not good enough for her. A relationship started with deceit has very little chance of surviving for the long haul. I vote for full disclosure.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@fundevogel John is Dave’s identical twin brother; they often “switch lives” and hilarious hijinks ensue.

mjm8401's avatar

If Dave does not like you for who you are, then Dave probably isn’t worth it.

downtide's avatar

I think I need to clarify that I am not in this situation personally ; I’m in a long term relationship and as we were together long before I started transitioning, I didn’t need to worry about disclosure.

Jane and Dave are hypothetical people. They probably do exist all around the world, in numbers higher than you might think, but in asking this question I’m not thinking of any specific people I know. The question was asked last month at a trans support group I go to and it sparked some great debate, so I just thought I would bring the question here and spark some more.

Also maybe time to chip in my own opinions here. First of all I think that Jane has the right, if she so chooses, to not disclose at all, ever. Once the surgery is done, there’s no physical difference between Jane’s anatomy and that of a natural-born woman – the only difference is that as she is missing internal organs she will never be able to have children of her own. If the surgery is good then even a doctor wouldn’t be able to tell, without an internal exam and/or ultrasound scans.

It often occurs to me that the people who protest the loudest about how much it matters that Jane used to be John, are the ones who are the least able to see a trans woman as a woman, and are the most afraid of being thought of as gay.

On the other hand if Jane decides to take that route she’s treading a dangerous line. Many trans women have been murdered by sexual partners who have found out. And if it turns out that Dave is transphobic/homophobic, Jane is almost certainly better off without him. Early disclosure serves the purpose of weeding out those who would make unsuitable partners. But it does mean that Jane may well be forced to remain single for the rest of her life.

It seems that whichever way you do it, there is no easy option. It’s just one of the many difficulties a trans person has to live with.

keobooks's avatar

Does Jane keep in contact with her family or anyone from her past? If she chooses never to disclose, she’s going to have to ask all those other people to lie for her because it will come up at some point.

Why not fess up? If not she’ll always have the feeling that deep down, if he knew the truth, he’d leave her. That’s a pretty hard thing to live with. Why not just get it over with? Find someone who can love all of her no matter what – or be surprised that this guy isn’t as neanderthal as she thought.

sinscriven's avatar

@Aethelflaed That’s what sucks the most. Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

@fundevogel : You can still love someone but fall out of attraction to them. It is not childish to end things someone who no longer meets your attractiveness criteria. You also don’t address the feeling of betrayal. Yes, she is who she is, but it’s still deception by omission. How can he love her for who she is if he doesn’t know the entirety of the truth himself? He’s being left int he dark and kept from making an educated decision about his feelings. Some people are capable of being attracted to only the emotional connection, many others have to be attracted to the entire package. it’s unfair to make judgment calls on others because they are not pansexual.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@sinscriven But that’s kind of the point, isn’t it? If you’re a straight man, either you don’t need to be pansexual to date a woman trans* or cis, or there’s some transphobia going on.

Judi's avatar

But if your trans and your dating a trans phobic it’s better for everyone to know up front.
The lessons learned from watching soap operas with my mom growing up was that skeletons never stay in closets.

fundevogel's avatar

@sinscriven “You can still love someone but fall out of attraction to them. It is not childish to end things someone who no longer meets your attractiveness criteria.”

But attraction, is based on personality and physical appearance. It shouldn’t change just because Dave finds Jane is a post-op trans woman. She’s still the same woman he was attracted to and as @downtide explained if he hadn’t figured out she was trans on his own seeing her naked wouldn’t make you think her any less of a woman either. But your response projected revulsion at the idea of finding out what her body once was and a feeling of betrayal that in finding this out you no longer knew who this person was at all.

“It’s also naive to think that the love and attachment will override the potential revulsion because he loved Jane. John loved the Jane he perceived, when John learns the truth about Jane, then he will feel that he has no clue who Jane is at all so the emotional hook on loving her for who she is, is moot.”

That simply shouldn’t be that case. She’s still the same person he’s been hitting it off with and she’s no less beautiful than she was three seconds before. There isn’t even the issue of her presenting and identifying as female while packing something unexpected it her pants. The only difference is now you know more about her past and for whatever reason you think that knowing her body is not what it once was it is reasonable to reject her for what she no longer is.

Judi's avatar

@fundevogel , it SHOULDN’T, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t. People can choose their attitude but they can’t always choose their feelings. To try and deny your true feelings about things as important as a life partner is insincere and probably a recipe for disaster.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@Judi If Dave does have a problem being attracted to someone they now know is trans, then yeah, Dave should not be in a relationship with Jane. It’s not fair to Dave or Jane. But let’s then be honest about what’s going on: Dave find trans people so revolting that no matter how in love/lust he was before it’s a total dealbreaker. And yeah, I’m gonna judge Dave for it; his desires involve bigotry.

Judi's avatar

In a relationship it doesn’t matter if YOU or I judge them. That’s the least of their problems. If the information is withheld,there is a more than 50% chance that people are going to be hurt. Honesty is still the best policy.

fundevogel's avatar

I’m with @Aethelflaed on this. Though it does make me wonder… People keep secrets about their past all the time for all sort of reasons, even from the people they are closest to. It may not be the smartest or most appropriate thing for their relationship, but I think @downtide‘s right in saying if it’s in the past they should be able to keep it to themselves. I wouldn’t recommend it for reasons we’ve already discussed, but it is ultimately their call. I mean, no one’s making me disclose the stuff I’d like to keep in the past.

Aethelflaed's avatar

Honesty is the best policy is an oversimplification, at least partly because in this question, it’s about when that honesty comes. I have quite a lot of things that I share with people more when we’re at the 6 month or 2 year mark than the 2nd date mark. And it also assumes that there are a good number of people who are going to react well to what you have to share, and that having the healthy ideal of a relationship is more important than physical and mental safety.

Judi's avatar

I thought about that too. I still don’t think the question is “if” you disclose, I think the real question is “when.”

Bellatrix's avatar

It seems to me this is a major change in Jane’s life and the journey she has gone through would have contributed to who she is emotionally and the way she views the world and relates to people. It isn’t just about physical change. I can see why technically Jane shouldn’t have to disclose her past but I feel it would be starting a relationship on a dishonest basis. I would feel the same if we were talking about child abuse, divorce or any other serious life changing event. You have to be able to trust your partner and if Jane doesn’t feel Dave can cope, he isn’t the right man for her.

rooeytoo's avatar

@downtide – I hadn’t realized that it was impossible to tell from external examination. In view of that I would consider not telling. The danger would be that someone from the past would show up and let the cat out of the bag. I think you would live in constant fear of being discovered. But discovery aside, does anyone ever tell everything??? The idea that a relationship has to be completely open and honest in order to be successful I think is a fairy tale. I don’t think anyone is ever totally honest and I don’t think that is a bad thing. There are many things that occur in the course of a lifetime that if disclosed would not only accomplish no good but could be very hurtful.

bkcunningham's avatar

So do you never talk about your past before you had your final surgery? That doesn’t seem right to me.

Mariah's avatar

@bkcunningham You don’t have to never talk about it; gender’s not relevant to every past experience.

I agree wholeheartedly with @Bellatrix. My main concern with this honestly isn’t Dave knowing for Dave’s sake. It’s Dave knowing because it’s a huge part of Jane’s life and a serious partner should know about such things from her past that have helped shape her.

hearkat's avatar

Many of us have “skeletons in the closet”, and I have learned the honesty and full-disclosure are the best policy. However, full-disclosure does not have to occur immediately, but it should be revealed in the earlier stages of a developing serious relationship. If one is not looking to get serious with the other, than it may not be as relevant; so intentions are a factor—but for this conversation, I am assuming that Jane is looking for a long-term relationship.

I am hopeful that prior to getting to the point of a first date, ANY person would have chatted with the other enough to have a sense of their views on key issues. The first few dates are an important step in the process though – seeing how a person interacts with others or handles the little frustrations of everyday life are a big tell on their temperament and character.

In those early stages, the conversation often turns to our family and childhoods. So for those of us whose childhoods were less than ideal, this is where the awkwardness comes in. If a person is still close to some family members or childhood friends, then something will come up at some point that will raise questions in the mind of the partner. People may try to keep secrets, but they rarely succeed, and in doing so they cause themselves great stress, and do a disservice to those whom they claim to love and trust.

As a survivor of sexual abuse, I don’t want to divulge all the details on the first date, so at first I simply say my childhood wasn’t all that happy and/or that my family was quite dysfunctional, then later may divulge that it was abusive, and eventually that the abuse was sexual. Very few people actually know who my perpetrator was, though – only those I know most intimately, which includes my finacé. So it’s not being dishonest, it’s about how deep to go with the details depending on the nature of the relationship with any given person.

I know of people who lie on their online dating profiles – one women claims she has kids because she feels that only guys who are serious will contact her – this is a friend of a friend, so I don’t know what kind of reaction she gets when she tells them she is childless. I had a date with a guy who claimed on his profile that he was 6’ tall and he wasn’t – I’ve been with men shorter than me, so his height didn’t matter; but knowing that he’d lie about something so easily revealed made me wonder how honest he’d be about anything else. Trust is so essential to success in a relationship.

An ex-bf of mine concealed that he had a child on the way by a woman he had dated only casually before we met. The baby was about to turn 1 when I found out. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, because I understood his trepidation that if he had told me, I’d have rejected him – he was right. In the long run, the relationship didn’t work out; but not because he had kept that secret.

I have a good friend who is in transition, and I have the impression that she only reveals to people as she becomes very close to them. She dated someone casually for a while, then they went separate ways, but later they got back together and started something serious. When she revealed, he was taken aback and took a little while to absorb it and think it through; but now he loves her for who she is and is very supportive, and they’ve been living together for over a year. There is no way to speculate how things would be different had she revealed at another time.

I like the idea that this issue should be discussed as the relationship becomes more serious but before sex. Many people (myself included, in the past) allow the sexual chemistry to dominate the early stages of a relationship; but I’ve found that if one is pursuing a serious, lifelong relationship, it is far better to really get to know the other person well and have established a level of emotional intimacy and trust prior to becoming physically intimate.

Kardamom's avatar

@downtide Do you know if they have dating sites or groups that are designed specifically for people who are transsexuals? I don’t mean for straight perverted types that get off on this kind of thing, but for actual transsexuals who would like to meet and date other transsexuals. It might be a little bit easier for someone to date another person who has gone through this change (albeit the opposite way, or maybe the same way if they are also gay). It might limit the pool of available partners, but it also might be a more realistic, or at least easier way to find a partner. What are your thoughts about this idea?

downtide's avatar

@Kardamom I’ve never come across such a site (at least, not one that wasn’t full of “chasers”, but the majority of trans people I know do tend to date other trans people, usually met through local support groups.

Kardamom's avatar

@downtide I wasn’t sure if a trans person would necesarily want to be with or date another trans person, just for that fact alone, although it would certainly make it easier to deal with the whole situation. But as you know, people fall in love with all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. It would be a lot harder (because of the smaller pool of people who would be OK with it) to fish in the non-trans ocean. But if someone found the right non-trans person, then it would be wonderful.

Here’s a horrible (and I do apologize) analogy that I was reminded of, about my own youth. If you can believe it, I was a huge Bay City Rollers fan. The Bay City Rollers, at least in my town and school, were considered to be the epitome of un-coolness and most people shouted that they were gay and faggots, but I loved them. So me and a few other girls at school, when I first started in high school, developed some secret code words to determine whether or not someone else was a BCR fan, because if they weren’t you were likely to have your reputation ruined and have people assume that you were gay and call you names. I would never have mentioned being a BCR fan when I first met a friend. I was too embarrassed and too afraid of the repercussions. Isn’t that crazy! Something that really had no impact and was not life-threatening. So to be a transsexual and to have to deal with that whole realm of repercussions is just mind-boggling to me.

I hate the idea of chasers who seek out people specifically because they do have some sort of difference and it is the difference (which is usually a fetish) that makes the person appealing, not because of any particular sort of mutual love or feelings of chemistry.

I realized I never actually answered the question. I think disclosure as soon as possible, even on the first date, is crucial. It’s not like someone who is chubby (another favorite of chasers) where it is quite clear to see what the person’s unusual difference is. Being a transsexual is something that is quite different and it goes to the base of people’s ideas of what is right and wrong, and what is and what isn’t, and who someone is, and who someone is not. Maybe in a few years, things will be different, but right now, I think it would come as a shock to most people. And for some people (and you know who those people are) would not only see it as shocking, but as sinful or disgusting or un-natural or as an afront to God, or a whole bunch of other not so nice things.

It’s interesting, I’ve often thought, What if my S/O came out now (after 15 years) and told me that he had once been a female? I think at this point, it would be a little odd (and would actually explain a few things LOL), but I think I would choose to keep him, but if I would have learned that info in the beginning, I don’t think I would have let the relationship go any further than friendship. But I would still prefer to work with the facts from the get go.

At the place where I used to work (which was a fairly liberal place to begin with) a trans woman came to work in our department. It seemed somewhat obvious (if that is the right word) that our co-worker either was at one time, or might still be, a male. But no biggie. If she said she was a female, then we would treat her as she wanted to be treated. Just to let you know, me and all of the other females, were not exactly your run of the mill feminine type of gals. We were all very strong, never wore makeup because of the type of work we did and we all pretty much did the same type of traditionally male type of work. So in our own little department, everything was cool. But then we caught wind of gossip down the halls, and people had begun to whisper about the “tranny” at work. So even in a liberal place where we worked, where half of the staff was either gay or lesbian, being trans was and probably still is a bit shocking to most people.

Thanks to Chazz Bono, though, at least being trans seems at least somewhat normal and OK. Everybody loved Chastity, and when Chazz became a fellow, how could you not love him?

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