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janelle's avatar

I don't understand why one of my questions isn't being taken down?

Asked by janelle (465 points ) August 12th, 2012

There are typos, the description is obviously confusing, and there were personal attacks towards me that didn’t contribute to answering to the question at all. I’ve flagged this several times, yet I haven’t been given the option to edit it and i’m now very frustrated. Why is this? It just doesn’t seem logical how I had to edit several of my questions because of one grammar mistake, yet I can’t have the option to edit a more popular question with even more of a reason to flag it.

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104 Answers

filmfann's avatar

Link please

DeanV's avatar

You should probably contact one of the mods about it rather than posting here. Also, what is the offending question?

JLeslie's avatar

Probably there aren’t any mods online right now. Just bad timing. Bellatrix and Auggie usually log on about this time. Hopefully, it will get pulled soon so you can correct it.

ETpro's avatar

No link, but is this the same issue as the similar one you posted 1 month ago?

augustlan's avatar

@janelle When you flagged the question (long after it was originally asked), the mod team discussed the situation thoroughly and opted not to remove the question for several reasons. It had already received over 100 answers, and the typos (2, in a long paragraph) were very minor. Since we were aware that the question had not gone the way you expected it would, and that you were very upset about some of the answers you got, we also strongly suspected that your intention was not to edit it, but to get it removed permanently (by getting it sent back for editing, and then abandoning it.) Although it’s unfortunate when it happens, being upset by the answers you get is not a legitimate reason for us to remove a question.

harple's avatar

@janelle The thing about this site is, that the answers given aren’t for your exclusive use – the hope is that they will be useful to others too, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, or maybe in a couple of years’ time. I haven’t seen the question you asked, but someone else out there may well want to ask the same thing but have reasons for not doing so – how helpful that you’ve already asked it for them. (I seem to recall having already written something along these lines on an early question of yours… hmmm…)

ucme's avatar

Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to type or skype….hang on, that’s not right!!

jca's avatar

@janelle: If it makes you feel any better, I’ve posted questions that had minor typos or spelling mistakes, also and nothing happened to them.

janelle's avatar

@ETpro My previous post was just to get a better understanding of how the site works.

The reason that i’m upset is that they were so anal about one grammar mistake on one question, but they won’t let me edit another that had so many more mistakes and reasons to be flagged. So far my understanding of this site is “We’re anal about being grammatically correct, unless your question was popular then we won’t let you fix the same mistakes because we’re scared you’re going to delete it based on an assumption.” I have reasons, the exact same reasons to edit a question. Yet i’m being deprived of the same option that was given to another question because of an assumption. This just contributes to my lack of respect for fluther.

@harple Even though I want to edit the question due to grammar mistakes, I honestly feel like those answers won’t help someone. Hopefully it will, but it’ll be less likely if they’re confused from the beginning because I wasn’t given the opportunity to fix my mistakes and state clearer what I was trying to say.

syz's avatar

@janelle If you’re so concerned about typos, why do you keep using lower case “i” to refer to yourself? Why not move on, and focus on current interactions?

janelle's avatar

@syz I’m concerned about how fluther handles their questions, I just don’t think that their actions are logical.

harple's avatar

@janelle And yet, if changing your mistakes changes the meaning behind your question, could it not be possible that half of the considerable number of answers might no longer make any sense, confusing a new reader all the more?

syz's avatar

@janelle Why be concerned about Fluther handles their questions? It’s their website.

janelle's avatar

@harple Not necessarily. I’d simply re-organize the description and fill in details that previous readers were confused about.

@syz Then they should be open to hearing concerns and acting upon them to improve it.

janelle's avatar

Also because i’m now a member of this website and if I believe it’s corrupt then i’m leaving and would express my feelings on a different site.

JLeslie's avatar

I just realized @augustlan did answer here. This happened to me once. One of my Q’s took a direction I was very unhappy about. For me it was a lesson in how I word a question, and also that I can’t really control the answers. I suggest stating on Q clearly what you wanted from the Q, and your opinion regarding the topic, so at least you know if someone reads it they know what your intention was and where you stand, and then just let it go. Most questions don’t ever pop up again after a few weeks. You can stop following it if it is upsetting you. Once you get involved with new questions your worry about this one will start to fade.

janelle's avatar

I just think it’s unjust for me to be given the option to improve one question but not another based on an assumption.

If someone can give me a response that would fix this, it would be greatly appreciated.

JLeslie's avatar

@janelle Fix what? Fix how you feel? Or, fix the corrections you want to make to the Q? It sounds like the mods have discussed it and the decision is made. The site managaer responded here, so they have heard you out, and it seems they don’t feel there is much of a problem with your Q. Maybe try to look at your Q more objectively? If it was someone else’s you would not let one Question or thread stick in your mind like this, and that is how the rest of the collective looks at your question. One question of many. Are you embarrased by the question? Or, worried people will misperceive you? Don’t fret I say. Really. The more people get to know you, the more they will know you.

I just glanced at your profile and the three Questions that pop up have 5,6,7 GQ’s. You must be doing something right.

Shippy's avatar

I ask strange odd questions all the time, and my grammar sucks. Don’t take it to heart, like @JLeslie said you have contributed it appears well to Fluther! I wish I could take some of mine down, like the sponge question, or my most recent one, does it hurt!!!! But you never know it may help someone, or even me, which is important!

zensky's avatar

Ya gotta love the Lisa. Classy broad.

Kardamom's avatar

@janelle I have no idea what the question in question is. But I’m pretty sure the mods are not removing the question, or as you have suggested sending it back for editing, because they don’t think that you really care about the typos and grammar. If you did, you’d probably not be writing your answers on this thread with typos and grammar problems (because you are still doing that). They are concerned, as has been stated, that you only want the question returned to editing so that you can dump it, because you didn’t like the answers you received.

Your best bet, is to either forget about it, or go back onto the thread and explain yourself there.

Next time, and I hope there will be a next time, because no one is trying to drive you off of the site, just pay more attention to how you word your questions, and be very mindful of your spelling and grammar. If English is not your first language, you can also work that into the details, because the mods will give you lots of leeway if that is the case. If English is your native language the mods will expect you to write correctly and will call you on it if you don’t (as will some of the other Jellies who are experts with English and spelling, which is very helpful to all of us)

Then, write what you really mean, don’t expect people to guess. Try writing your question and your details in a Word document first, before submitting them to Fluther. That way, you can re-read your stuff several times, do any editing that is necessary, before you post (and realize that it isn’t what you wanted to say).

And before getting too upset, try asking the mods for help, that’s what they’re there for. And note that the mods are all volunteers, except for Augustlan, and each of them is only on the site when it is convenient for them to be there. So during some times of the day and night (the site is used by people on multiple continents, so one person’s day is another person’s night) there may not be any mods on duty. Be patient, one will be there soon : )

jca's avatar

@janelle: When you think about it, it seems like it prevents people (like yourself) from asking a question and throwing a few minor typos into the wording, and then when they don’t like the answers they get, sitting back and requesting the question be modded off. We’ve all asked questions with minor typos that are left up.

I remember several of your questions you got mad at the people who answered, saying you heard enough and you were done with it. No need to get defensive, and it doesn’t work like that, anyway. You ask a question, it’s not up to you who or when or how many responses it gets. Everyone here, I can guarantee you, everyone has heard things from others that they did not care to hear. That’s life. That’s Fluther.

@ETpro: I suspect she’s annoyed at the question: “How can I get my boyfriend to stop ignoring me?”

Kardamom's avatar

@jca I think that is the question she was referring to also. She said that she was going to bring her boyfriend onto the question, so that we could get his side of it. But she never did. I wonder if the boyfriend did stop ignoring her.

janelle's avatar

The point I was trying to make was, and I repeat, the site is telling me “We’re anal about being grammatically correct, unless your question was popular then we won’t let you fix the same mistakes because we’re scared you’re going to delete it based on an assumption.”

I have tried contacting a mod long ago via message, no response.

JLeslie's avatar

@janelle see @augustlan‘s response. She is the Queen mod. The momma bear, the ultimate decision maker.

jca's avatar

Yeah but @janelle, you have to admit you got all huffy with the people who tried to advise you in the first place. Fluther may not always please you the way you want to be pleased.

janelle's avatar

I have yet to state my full stance on the argument. Would it be best for me to flag the question once again and include my thoughts in the additional details box or would it be better if I message a mod directly?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

The head mod/community manager has already said that it won’t be taken down, so I think any further attempts would be pointless.

Kardamom's avatar

Everyone has made a few minor spelling or grammatical errors before, and unless they are really dramatic there is no reason for the question to be taken down. Although, most of us still think that spelling and grammar are very important on this site, and the mods and everyone else give non-native English speakers a lot of leeway and understanding, so not all Q’s with mistakes will be taken down unless there is some other problem, like a legal problem or a problem with profanity or personal attacks, or persistent and blatant mis-use of English, then they might close a question.

I think most people, who are following this whole drama just don’t believe that you wanted the Q taken down so you could fix the errors, I think most people believe that you want the Q taken down because you didn’t like the answers (most of them quite helpful by the way).

I think it may be possible for Auggie to fix the spelling errors without having to take down the Q but she stated that she suspected that you only wanted to ditch the Q, otherwise, if you had been serious about the spelling errors you would have flagged it immediately, not well after the fact of receiving answers that you didn’t like.

Believe it or not, most of us, I was about to say all of us, but most of us are really are on Fluther to help, but when we get b*tched at and screetched at for giving honest true answers to Q’s where the OP doesn’t like the answers, then it gets irritating and we tend to think that the OP is being quite immature. We all have a little fun on here now and then, but having a constant drone of immaturity from a Jelly is exasperating.

I know, I know you want to tell me how immature I am too! That’s OK. Go right ahead.

But what I wish you would really do, is re-read the answers on the Q in question and really pay attention to what you told us in the first place and how we answered you. Because we are giving you our impressions of how you came across, and how maybe your actions effected how your boyfriend was treating you, or how your actions were out of line with the situation. Do you really think that we purposely sit around in a huddle and decide to go after a Jelly to make them look foolish? If you do, then you have certainly come to the wrong place, because we’re here to help. Sometimes helping means pointing out that things are not always as they appear. Plus, since some of us are clearly older than you, we have had the lifetime of misfortune to step into similar piles of sh*t and we like to help younger folks (and older folks) avoid the same pile.

augustlan's avatar

@janelle If you are really concerned about the (very minor) typos, I will be happy to correct them for you myself, via internal edit. However, we cannot allow you to change the question to better reflect what you meant. If we allowed that, all of the 100+ answers the question has already received would no longer make sense.

Let me know if you want me to correct the typos for you, and I’ll take care of it.

chyna's avatar

@janelle You do realize that the question had died its eventual death as all questions on here do, but by bringing up the question again, you just revived a question you really don’t want people to respond to.
You probably should have left it alone.

Ponderer983's avatar

@chyna You are exactly right!

And why, a month later, are you still bringing this up? If you really have an issue with this, my feeling is you should have asked one of the mods via a private message. I had a question about why I was being modded once and I asked directly, and was given a direct and definitive response. There are no favorites played here. I feel as though now you are almost insulting the mods publicly. @augustlan has given you the end all be all response and you are ignoring it and still pushing on. She has said she will fix the grammar/spelling internally, but the question will remain. I have questions where I didn’t like the responses, but everyone is entitled to their opinion…on everything. My advice for your questions in the future is to be as precise as possible with the details and think them through so that your question is clearly stated and explained.

janelle's avatar

@Ponderer983 I didn’t message a mod privately because every single time I tried doing that in the past when I had a question or concern, they did not reply. This ultimately led me to the belief that making a post would get me some answers because of the thought that more than one mod may come across it. I never meant to insult them publicly, I simply felt as if this was the only way for me to get some answers.

mangeons's avatar

@janelle You say that you’re upset because they’re “anal about being grammatically correct, unless your question was popular then we won’t let you fix the same mistakes because we’re scared you’re going to delete it based on an assumption.” However, you made it clear that just correcting the spelling/grammar errors was not your intention when you said you would “simply re-organize the description and fill in details that previous readers were confused about”, which is exactly what they don’t want you to do. Which is why they aren’t going to let you edit it. Which is why you should just let it go.

Kardamom's avatar

@janelle How many times have you sent private messages to the mods? I find it hard to believe that you have asked repeated questions by PM and not received any replies. Maybe the mods can give us some insight into this.

Or did you mean that you simply flagged something, because they generally have no reason to contact you if you are simply flagging something, even if it’s your own stuff. Auggie mentioned that you did flag the Q in question (not sent her a PM, just flagged) and because you sent it so far after the fact of asking the question, your motives seem to be a little bit fishy.

You either have to use the contact button, or private message them directly from their profile pages where it says Message.

JLeslie's avatar

@janelle Take @augustlan up on her offer to correct the typos you are concerned about so it doesn’t bother you anymore. Then stop following the question and this one, so you can get it out of your system. Out of sight, out of mind. I think you are beating yourself up too much, and being angry with the mods is just a projection. It’s ok, really, most of us have Q’s we regret.

Aethelflaed's avatar

I’m sort of with @janelle here. I’ve had questions sent back for some of the most minor typos and mistakes (one memorable one was “awhile” vs “a while”; exactly zero readers were confused), so it does seem like either the rule should be followed consistently regardless of if the OP has some ulterior motive, or users should be rewarded for the lack of control they have over questions by having a bit of flexibility in the rules for more minor mistakes. Not being consistent doesn’t make the mods really look that much better than the OP.

@janelle Sometimes – and I doubt this would work on this question, because Auggie & co. have already discussed things – you can get questions removed as “other> trainwreck” when there’s lots of personal attacks and flame-bait and no progress is being made.

augustlan's avatar

For the record, I have never received a PM from @janelle until tonight (after I posted my last response up there ^^.)

If you have sent PMs to mods and they didn’t answer you, please let me know. That would be really unusual, and I’d want to check into it.

jca's avatar

@janelle: Hit the “stop following” button and drop it.

Shippy's avatar

Why don’t you ask the question again @janelle. Or a similar one about relationships. We are all learning about ourselves all the time. I am also a person who ignores to punish or to get my feelings across and just from this thread I have learned so much.

I realise you feel fed up with the question in general. But there is loads of life experience here and loads of caring people. Do give it another go.

jca's avatar

@Shippy: My impression is she is mad at the answers she got and wants the whole thing removed so she doesn’t have to think about the issue any longer.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@jca I’d be mad too if one of my first questions contained that many personal attacks.

Kardamom's avatar

@Aethelflaed Many of the personal attacks were made by the OP. I was on the thread as it was happening so I saw them come and go. Some of them were directed at me. The OP was getting a lot of good advice, but the problem was that the OP was treating all of us in a manner that was similar to how she was reacting to her boyfriend (which was the whole point of the Q, she was mad at him), and she didn’t like hearing that.

janelle's avatar

The point that i’m trying to make is that fluther isn’t consistent with their guidelines and even goes against them. Fluther states that personal attacks regardless of who it was from, is an “important rule” and “isn’t allowed.”

Aethelflaed's avatar

@Kardamom Well, then that’s somewhat different – but not entirely, because new people tend not to be aware of the rules; regular jellies are, and you didn’t say all of the personal attacks came from the OP.

janelle's avatar

@Aethelflaed Seeing that Fluther is dishonest and unreliable I no longer expect to see the question to be given the same treatment as my other questions that went against the guidelines.

janelle's avatar

*also went against the guidelines if not more

Kardamom's avatar

@Aethelflaed You’re absolutelly correct, not all of them came from the OP. Some of the Jellies were being naughty. The reason that the Jellies started attacking is because the OP was attacking and being un-reasonable. And no, un-reasonableness is not an excuse. That’s why the mods stepped in.

@janelle Once again, you must not have read what Augustlan said, she told you that the guidelines are still in place and she offered to help you correct the spelling mistakes without having to remove the Q. The reason they didn’t send the Q back to you for editing has been made quite clear too, they believe that you ONLY wanted the Q sent back to editing so that you could dump it, not because of any spelling errors. If you had been concerned about the spelling errors, you would have asked to have it sent back to editing immediately, but you waited until you received a bunch of answers that you did not like, only then did you ask to have it sent back. You also lied, when you said that you had sent Private Messages to the mods about your problem(s) as Auggie has pointed out on this thread. If you back up 10 posts or so, you will see that.

I’ll try to explain how the guidelines about spelling and grammar work, so that you will know that the mods are not using them against you or being in-consistent. First of all if you post a Q and it has typos and one of the mods is on duty at that particular time (some times there are no mods on duty while you are presenting your Q’s) that mod would have to both see the Q and notice the spelling or grammar errors. Although they are great, they’re not perfect, so sometimes errors get missed and the Q gets posted as is. Also, if I’m not mistaken, there are a few less mods than there used to be even from six months ago. So they can’t catch everything, but once a thing does get brought up, they do their best to fix it, even if it’s not in the way that you want it fixed.

The other way a Q will get sent back for editing with regards to spelling and grammar errors is if another non-mod Jelly flags the Q. Most of the time, the non-mod Jellies won’t bother to flag a Q for spelling errors if the Q is otherwise understandable, but they might point out your errors right on the Q. It’s quicker than flagging. Some people appreciate that, some people do not. I have tried to clean up my act by reading about spelling errors, so I’m grateful for it.

A jelly can ask to have his Q returned for editing because of spelling and grammar problems, but some of the mods will probably suggest fixing it internally (as Auggie offered to you) without having to take it down, or they will decide that the problem is so minor (that the mods didn’t even notice the problems in the first place so it’s no big deal). In your case they didn’t believe that you wanted to fix the spelling errors, they thought you wanted to dump the Q, which unfortunately is not allowed unless there is some egregious legal problem. That is why people are always telling folks to be very careful about what they say online, because it stays there, much like What happens in Vegas as they say.

janelle's avatar

You also lied, when you said that you had sent Private Messages to the mods about your problem(s) as Auggie has pointed out on this thread. If you back up 10 posts or so, you will see that.

I wouldn’t make assumptions now, seeing that she isn’t the only one. I don’t remember the exact usernames, but I remember messaging one that was along the lines of Bellatix.

I’m going to quote @Aethelflaed because this is what i’m trying to prove. ” I’ve had questions sent back for some of the most minor typos and mistakes (one memorable one was “awhile” vs “a while”; exactly zero readers were confused), so it does seem like either the rule should be followed consistently regardless of if the OP has some ulterior motive, or users should be rewarded for the lack of control they have over questions by having a bit of flexibility in the rules for more minor mistakes. Not being consistent doesn’t make the mods really look that much better than the OP.”

It’s interesting how you didn’t point out the all of the parts of the guidelines that apply.

janelle's avatar

This is the message that I sent Augustlan and am only posting it because it may help you all understand why I believe that Fluther is corrupt, dishonest, and in-consistent.

I requested that the question be deleted solely due to grammatical errors at first because I wanted to avoid picking out each example of how it went against Fluther’s guidelines. Some of the answers were clearly abusive and disrupted the discussion. Here are the exact examples. I believe that guidelines and rules were made for a reason and I expect that fluther follow through with them.
Guidelines
Responses must be respectful: you can disagree without being disagreeable
1— “Now I am starting to feel bad for your boyfriend.”
2— “At age 19 (unless you are a hooker, a porn star or a floozy) you are inexperienced with life, and hopefully sexuality.”
Disrespect-v-show a lack of respect for;insult
Relate to the discussion/Not disrupt the discussion
1— “If you wanted advice, why did you come on Fluther to ask for it, even if you were already bound and determined that you weren’t going to take any of it, if it made you look young and inexperienced.”
2— “How often do you wear tops like the one in your avatar?”
3— “I agree with @FutureMemory: write your thoughts to him across your cleavage. ;-)”
4— “You’re going to make me break out some old avatars, aren’t you? ;)”
5— “Ok ok, here you go. Stop the PM’s please ;)”
The discussion had nothing to do with my reason for being on Fluther, my avatar, or my cleavage.
Additional:
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Proof that I have been personally attacked.
“Although a wider spectrum of activity is allowable in this section, quality responses are still required.” What I stated above is proof that there were some responses that didn’t follow the guidelines, ultimately degrading the answers.
“In order to use Fluther, you must meet our writing standards. Proper spelling, capitalization, grammar and punctuation are important to us.” This states that in order to use Fluther, i’m obligated to follow the writing standards; my question did not meet the writing standards.
***Important Rules: This type of activity is unacceptable everywhere on Fluther, and will be removed
-Not in line with our writing standards.
-Hateful, abusive, or bigoted.
Definition of abusive- Extremely offensive and insulting. Offensive- Causing someone
to feel deeply hurt.

She then stated that the social section is more relaxed and that nothing met their definition of a personal attack and that feeling hurt isn’t reason enough.

That wasn’t the only reason as I clearly stated. Though the guidelines are more relaxed, it looks as if Fluther is disregarding them altogether. There are personal attacks in the conversation, I don’t think it should matter who it’s from.

***Important Rules: This type of activity is unacceptable everywhere on Fluther, and will be removed
-Not in line with our writing standards.
-Hateful, abusive, or bigoted.
Definition of abusive- Extremely offensive and insulting. Offensive- Causing someone
to feel deeply hurt.
Speaking hypothetically, who are they to say that my feelings weren’t deeply hurt? They say that it’s not acceptable anywhere on Fluther yet they’re letting this slip past them. Why do the guidelines even exist?

Kardamom's avatar

@janelle I read what Augustlan wrote on the Q itself, and I agree that the statements that were not modded off, some of which were written by me, were not personal attacks, they were statements of belief or questions directed to you. And you didn’t like them, because they probably made you feel foolish. But it wasn’t because of what we said that made you seem foolish. It was because of what you said in regards to our answers.

I don’t think I can explain the guidelines any better than I already have, but I’ll try again, with the point that seems to be causing you the most trouble. Unless a mod actually sees the question and then notices the spelling and grammar errors, the question won’t get sent back for editing. They actually have to be on duty to see the questions. If no one’s on duty when you submit, a poorly written Q might get through. But ususally another non-mod Jelly will flag it if it’s blatant. So that’s why sometimes people who submit questions with only minor problems get their Q’s sent back and others don’t. But the guidelines still exist and they mods fix them when it’s brought to their attention.

Just because a statement hurts your feelings or you are deeply offended doesn’t qualify that statement as a personal attack.

If I said to @JoeBlow “Hey Joe, maybe if you wore deoderant, your girlfriend wouldn’t keep telling you that you smell bad.” This statement might hurt Joe’s feelings, because it points out something within his behavior that is actually contributing to his problem, therefore making him feel foolish. But it’s not a personal attack. But if I said, “Joe you’re a big fat stinking pig just like all those other dirty fill in the blanks!” That would be a personal attack.

I’m sometimes horrified and offended by what other people on Fluther consider to be their core beliefs, but I can’t scream to the mods that everyone who makes a statement about their own beliefs or who asks me a question about why I don’t believe in X,Y or Z is a personal attack. Unless it actually is.

Maybe you could send another Private Message to Augustlan and Bellatrix to find out what happened there. You said that you sent multiple PM’s to the mods, did no one ever answer you?

janelle's avatar

Just because a statement hurts your feelings or you are deeply offended doesn’t qualify that statement as a personal attack.

It would however qualify as an abusive statement. Which according to the guidelines is unnacceptable everywhere on Fluther. I’m making the argument that it can qualify as an abusive statement and that Fluther should either delete their guidelines altogether or atleast eliminate such vague terms.

Even so, several comments did not relate to the discussion and even disrupted it. Fluther clearly states that though the social section has more relaxed guidelines, quality responses are still required.

I understand what you’re stating about the guidelines. Which is why i’m mind boggled by the fact that they haven’t made any progressive actions towards how these guidelines are not being followed even after i’ve brought it to their attention.

I’m still awaiting a response from Augustlan and have no intentions of trying to contact Bellatrix again. Other than Austulan, I have never received a response from a mod other than notifying me of their concerns with other posts with minor grammar mistakes.

Fly's avatar

@janelle I think you might be a little confused. Yes, there were personal attacks and flame-bait responses in your question that are not allowed on Fluther, as evidenced by the removed responses. However, that means that such responses will be removed, not the question that the responses are directed at. In addition, the unmodded responses, while potentially upsetting to you, were not personal attacks. @Kardamom has done a fair job explaining the difference. You also seem to misunderstand the meaning of “quality responses” being required in social. They have to meet the quality standards of the site (i.e. typos, making sense, etc.), but they do not have to be on topic whatsoever, and are allowed to “disrupt” the discussion, even if you would rather that they didn’t. You do have the option to move a question to general from social or vice versa, but only early on in the question.
If it makes you feel better, some of those responses that you mentioned are part of an inside joke or were purely in jest and were not directed at you. I can see how you could be upset by them if you were unaware, but that, again, does not constitute removal.

You must also consider that there are not mods on the site 100% of the time. If a mod comes across typos in a question themselves, they will almost certainly send the question back for editing. However, if there is no mod on duty or no mods see the question, the only way for them to become aware of quality issues is if the question is flagged by a user. If no users feel that the typos in a question affect the meaning of the question or are distracting enough to be worth flagging, it will be left as is. Yes, you can flag it yourself, but if the flagging coincides with a question that has a great amount of responses and has gone in a direction that the OP did not intend, it will probably be left alone to avoid any change in the meaning of the original question. Furthermore, if errors are not brought to a mod’s attention within a timely manner and the question has already gotten a significant amount of answers, it will probably be left alone for the same reason. For the benefit of everyone aside for yourself, it is only logical to leave the question as is. If you are really so concerned about the typos, you can ask a mod to fix the typos themselves, as you have been told. Also consider that there are many mods, and it is therefore difficult to be completely consistent all of the time.

Kardamom's avatar

How can you not see that the guidelines are being followed? That is precisely why Augustlan offered to fix your spelling errors. She also explained, at least to my satisfaction what constitutes a personal attack and what does not.

Well, I guess if you don’t try to attempt to contact Bellatrix, then you certainly won’t be able to solve that mystery will you? Although I’m sure Auggie will be around this evening to talk to you about it. How many private messages did you send to the mods? It seems unusual to say the least that if you sent multiples that not one of them, except for Auggie last night, ever replied back to you.

An abusive statement is just that. Something that makes a false statement about you, personally, or one that says something unfounded or un-true about your religious beliefs, or lack thereof or your sex or your sexual orientation or that you are a fill in the blank something that most people consider to be bad.

But if it’s a statement about you, and it’s true (and isn’t something that was said in private and couldn’t otherwise be known about you on Fluther, because you never mentioned it) even if you don’t care for it, it’s not considered an attack or abusive. When you have people parrot back what you’ve just said, it’s not abusive. When you have people ask you a question as to why you did or said something, that’s not abusive.

I’ll even use one of my own examples that you did not like “At age 19 (unless you are a hooker, a porn star or a floozy) you are inexperienced with life, and hopefully sexuality.” I didn’t say that you were a hooker, porn star or a floozy. Because you never said you were. I said that 19 year olds are inexperienced with life, and hopefully sexuality. That’s simply a statement of fact. Because at 19, you and every other 19 year old, simply haven’t had enough time to gain experience (unless you happen to have made a career out of the 3 items I mentioned) and since you aren’t any of those things, then you likely don’t have that much life experience, and hopefully not with sexuality either, because if you did, then somebody would have been violating the law.

And here’s another one of my statements: “Now I am starting to feel bad for your boyfriend.” This is not an attack on you. This is a true statement for how I was/am feeling for your boyfriend. Your original Q asked how to get your boyfriend to stop ignoring you, and then you pointed out to us, by many, many statements, that you tend to nag him and not let up, when you don’t get your way. In the same way that you are still on this thread nagging and complaining and not getting your way. So I was saying that I believe that I understand how your boyfriend must be feeling, because I am/was feeling that way too.

We all wanted to help you, we still do, but you seem so far out in left field that you can’t see straight and you don’t really want help and you don’t really want to understand what is being said to you, you simply want to rant and have things go your way, but that is not how the world works. You are young, you are 19. Hopefully you will learn to react and understand things in a different way, or see them from a different perspective before you get too much older or you will have problems, like these, throughout your whole life.

Maybe you could try reaching out to some of the younger Fluther members like MilkyWay, Mangeons and Mariah to see how they deal with situations, good and bad that come their way. They are young, but luckily for us, they are also blessed with maturity and wisdom, some of which I hope has come from some of us older folks right here on Fluther.

janelle's avatar

@Fly You may want to read the guidelines-social section again. It states that responses must relate to the discussion.

Though I still disagree with how Fluther handles it’s guidelines, I think I understand what you’re trying to say.
I’ll admit that at the time I wasn’t happy with how the post went. But it was mostly because I wasn’t able to effectively communicate the message I was trying to send which was why I was getting so many false responses and I still don’t think that the readers fully understand the situation.

I may end it with one last comment, deactivate this account and leave fluther/create a new account but i’m also considering keeping this active..just so I can laugh at that in the future.

chyna's avatar

@janelle @Fly probably understands the guidelines better than most, she is @augustlan‘s daughter.
Just sayin’...

janelle's avatar

@chyna I just read the guidelines…just sayin’

Fly's avatar

@janelle These guidelines were written when the social section was in its early stages. I think the issue here is that you have a strict interpretation of the guidelines, while 99% of the site, including the mods, have a very loose interpretation of the guidelines for social. The fact that the guidelines are relaxed is the key word here. Perhaps the guidelines should be adjusted to be more clear for newer members. That said, the bottom line is that the community manager and the mods have final say here; let’s not forget that they wrote the guidelines in the first place. They have explained their reasoning, and you should accept it for what it is and move on.

If you have a particular issue with the site, which I am not certain that you do since you seem to take issue with just about everything, it is much better to contact the community manager, @augustlan, directly via PM or the contact link at the top of the page. It will be better received and they will be able to address your concerns on a more individual level.

PhiNotPi's avatar

Personally, I would have tried to let the question disappear in history. I’ve asked a couple of questions that I don’t like, one of which occurred after wisdom teeth removal. Hopefully nobody here can recall which questions I am talking about, which is intended.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Oh dear God, HOW OLD ARE YOU??????????

Let it go and move on with your life!

gailcalled's avatar

@janelle; Make sure you have the last word.

janelle's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate ..coming from someone that’s willing to work for chocolate..please.

@Fly The guidelines being adjusted is my point exactly, since even you, the daughter of Augustlan stated that responses do not need to relate to the discussion where the guidelines actually do say that exactly.

I’m not trying to change their reasoning because i’ve realized that this site obviously doesn’t follow their already written guidelines. I do have an issue with the site, have messaged Augustlan, and plan on sharing my experience with how corrupt, dishonest, and in-consistent this site is elsewhere.

gailcalled's avatar

Edited by me.

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Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
JLeslie's avatar

Guidelines, not law. The mods on this site do their best to keep things within the guidelines. They prefer well written paragraphs, on topic, and no personal attacks. But, these things are left to a little bit of interpretation, it isn’t like math where 2+3=5, there is some subjectivity involved, and obviously your threshold for personal attack is lower than most of us. I guess it hurt your feelings? I can understand that. Being told part of your reaction is your age is not an insult, but I know it can feel like one. It is actually somewhat of a pass. We who are older were young once to, we have made a lot of the same mistakes and thought a lot of the same things in our own past. It is not judging, it is a critique of your thinking. An opportunity to pause, and try to see yourself from the outside looking in.

We have had some doozy personal attacks on fluther, but a disagreement, or comment on your actions is not inherently a personal attack. Defend yourself if you think the person was wrong, or ignore it, but don’t let it bother you like this, because the collective is just a bunch of people who you barely know and have no emotional ties too. Maybe if you stick around you will build relationships as you get to know more people. One thing I love about fluther is 99% of the time even if I have a very stong disagreement with someone that might border on crossing the line with insults, on the next question the same jelly and I might agree famously and joke around.

Plus, people here tend to have pretty thick skins. Look up some Q’s where Qingu and Jakx are arguing, that should make you feel better. They go at it. Their fights crack me up. I think most of us here like the banter, the debate, learning something new, being right, being wrong. All of it.

Fly's avatar

@janelle I’m sorry, but I don’t quite see the connection between guidelines that could use some clarification and the site being “corrupt and dishonest.” If that’s what you see the site as being, please, feel free to take your complaints “elsewhere.” I think you will quickly discover why so many people have left competing Q&A sites to come here.
Does it occur to you that this question has turned out very similarly to the question to which you are referring? You have not communicated your thoughts well and you handled both situations quite poorly and immaturely- and this is coming from an eighteen-year-old. I hope that you will take something away from both of these experiences, and that you will instead choose to stay and become a valued member of the community.

Ponderer983's avatar

Holy crap I accidentally gave her a GA! Whoops!!

@JLeslie I think your point about her sticking around is pointless. Most, if not all, of her activity on here has been solely on her Questions. She seems to have no desire to participate in the community that forms here. She’s concerned with herself, and let her be. She came looking for validation and was brutally rebuffed. It’s sad when people can’t look at the other side of the argument. I’m not saying they have to agree with it, but at least consider the validity of the point or argument being made. Clearly, she does not have that ability yet (hopefully one day she will).

@janelle I may end it with one last comment, deactivate this account and leave fluther/create a new account but i’m also considering keeping this active..just so I can laugh at that in the future.
I hope you do revisit this in the future and laugh – at how absurd you sound. I truly hope one day you can look back at this and realize people were trying to help, not attack, and give honest, experienced answers. It’s like looking back at your diary from when you were 10 and seeing how you looked at the world and how trivial it all was. But you have to open your eyes to others’ opinions, even if you don’t agree with them. I remember you once saying something about people on here being old, and you made that seem like that is an insult. You should feel lucky that you have access to people from all walks of life, from all over the world, of all races, ages creeds, etc. to look to for opinions. I have asked many questions on here just to see the different answers I get. It’s a great privilege and find on my part, I believe. It shouldn’t matter is someone is 60 or 16, if that person has been through a similar situation to one you are presenting, their answers are valid. And as far as the whole guideline issue, you need to get over that. This is a forum, not a courtroom. In the social section, it’s always free reign to stay on topic, go off topic, joke, banter, what have you. If you looked at other people’s questions and paid attention to the threads, you’d see that it happens constantly. But as I mentioned, you seem to have only stuck to the questions you have asked.

Ponderer983's avatar

Oh, and btw, I had no idea there was an entire @augustlan family on here! Cool!

DeanV's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate @jca I know what you’re trying to do, but I don’t think it’s really helping. I don’t know if I’ve agreed with a single thing that @janelle has said in this thread, but making snide comments about their relationship probably isn’t going to help her keep a level head. Sorry for turning into the manners police, though.

On that note, they have a point. There are many other Q&A sites out there, many other fish in the sea of 0’s and 1’s, and you shouldn’t expect this one to be a perfect fit for you. Life is too short to get mad about an argument on a relatively inactive social site. Continue on spreading the word of the anti-fluther god if you’d like, leave in a huffle and buffle, ask a couple more inflammatory questions even, but please, don’t take the internet too seriously. You’ll live longer.

Hell, you might even get as old as the median user here. :P

augustlan's avatar

When there are personal attacks or flame bait responses, we do remove them (as you can see in the question we’re talking about), but that doesn’t mean the entire question gets removed. Just the responses that violate the guidelines. Your definition of ‘hateful’ and ‘abusive’ is very different from ours, apparently. None of the posts you are upset about cross the line. For instance, saying “I feel bad for your boyfriend” is not a personal attack. While it may not be the nicest thing to say, it is not hateful or abusive. It also relates to the discussion, so there is no reason for us to remove that. Calling someone an “old prick” is a personal attack, so we removed that. Do you see the difference?

Anyway, the bottom line here is we will correct the typos if you like, but we will not be removing the question.

I checked our records, and I see that you did send a PM to bellatrix. When she got it, the mod team discussed it and came to the conclusion that we would not be removing the question. I think a reply just got lost in the discussion, with each of us thinking someone else was sending it to you. I apologize for not getting back to you at that time.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@augustlan Classy answer
And the rest of you guys, could you please cut the younger members some slack? Do you remember what you were like back then. Yes, I knew all the answers even when I didn’t know anything but how do you expect them to learn? Go easy on the less experienced. Please.

AshlynM's avatar

Don’t forget, we were all new on Fluther at one time. It takes a while for new and experienced members to warm up to each other. New members may not be used to everyone’s personalities and their belief systems.

syz's avatar

Sorry, but this feels like an older version of Toddlers and Tiaras.

JLeslie's avatar

Well, so much for @Adirondackwannabe‘s suggestion. Oy.

gailcalled's avatar

vvv Another last word? At least, make these memorable.

janelle's avatar

So basically..this is what my understanding of Fluther has come to – Fluther is anal about being grammatically correct and will send the question back for editing (usually if a mod is there to see the question, if a mod is not there to witness it when it’s being asked they will correct it if it’s flagged), unless the question becomes popular then Fluther won’t let you fix the same mistakes because they’re scared you’re going to delete it based on an assumption. Is this correct?

janelle's avatar

@gailcalled What are you talking about?

gailcalled's avatar

@janelle: Your pronouncements about leaving and then, suddenly, needing to repeat yourself in a more and more garbled fashion.

Dr Jelly, having no anus, cannot be anal.

jca's avatar

I am amazed that this discussion still continues as it did 24 hours ago.

janelle's avatar

@gailcalled I never stated that I would leave. Keyword:May

gailcalled's avatar

@janelle : Promises, promises…

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Oh come on people.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I’ve seen more fucking maturity in preschool. This is disgusting.

AshlynM's avatar

While reading this thread has been somewhat entertaining, I feel like this is beating a dead horse. We should respect each other’s opinions. We all have a right to believe what we want to believe in, and everyone should respect that.

I don’t see how continuing this thread is benefiting anyone, since @augustlan has stated why the question will not be removed.

janelle's avatar

@AshlynM True.
Why won’t one of my questions be taken down? Because I expected Fluther to adhere to their “loose guidelines” Though their existence is hardly noticeable. Also because each question isn’t given the same treatment even if they both contain the same errors.

As I said earlier and I wish someone would answer.
So basically..this is what my understanding of Fluther has come to – Fluther is anal about being grammatically correct and will send the question back for editing (usually if a mod is there to see the question, if a mod is not there to witness it when it’s being asked they will correct it if it’s flagged), unless the question becomes popular then Fluther won’t let you fix the same mistakes because they’re scared you’re going to delete it based on an assumption. Is this correct?

AshlynM's avatar

And for the record, egging the OP isn’t helping.

Fly's avatar

@janelle I think that you have strung this thread along quite long enough. You have either completely missed the point of everything that people have said to you, or you are intentionally choosing to ignore it. You have admitted in this same thread that your intentions were not to only change the typos, but to also change your question to better reflect the responses that you had hoped to receive, not the 100+ answers that you had already received. People have already explained that under such circumstances, editing the question is not allowed, and especially so when you had expressed a desire for your question to be taken down entirely already. It is not an unreasonable assumption whatsoever that you might allow the question to remain in editing limbo. @augustlan has even offered to fix your typos herself; if that were what you were really upset about, this discussion would be over. People have sufficiently answered all of your questions. If you choose to harp on and on about anything you can find to take issue with, be my guest, but I will not be entertaining it any longer.

@others- Some experienced members who are mature adults have managed to be equally immature as, if not even less mature than, the OP in this thread, so congratulations on that front. I certainly hope you are satisfied with whatever you had hoped to achieve here.

janelle's avatar

Relate to the discussion/Not disrupt the discussion
1— “If you wanted advice, why did you come on Fluther to ask for it, even if you were already bound and determined that you weren’t going to take any of it, if it made you look young and inexperienced.”
2— “How often do you wear tops like the one in your avatar?”
3— “I agree with @FutureMemory: write your thoughts to him across your cleavage. ;-)”
4— “You’re going to make me break out some old avatars, aren’t you? ;)”
5— “Ok ok, here you go. Stop the PM’s please ;)”
The discussion had nothing to do with my reason for being on Fluther, my avatar, or my cleavage.
Something either relates to the discussion or doesn’t. By supporting the lather that’s another reason I believe that Fluther doesn’t follow their “loose guidelines”

Looks like those guidelines may need some editing.

AshlynM's avatar

@janelle A little wisecracking, banter and joking is to be expected, especially in the social section. If you have issues with the guidelines, you should try talking to the community manager privately and suggest on how they can improve them. Not saying they will, no harm in trying. I completely understand how frustrating it can be when no one listens to you or hears you out, but when people joke on here, they may actually be giving you advice through some humor. Happens all the time. I can’t explain to you who created the guidelines or why they came up with those specific guidelines, but they’re here for us to live by.
For future reference, you should think carefully about what you want to ask and if you truly want it posted online for the whole world to see. I’m sorry some gave you a rough time about this, and some of it wasn’t necessary, but sometimes that’s just the way life goes. You need to take the bad with the good.

janelle's avatar

@AshlynM I’m amazed that they haven’t already clarified the guidelines..since it obviously can be misinterpreted and isn’t even fully supported. I believe that rules anywhere create the structure of a community and after witnessing this..I’ve lost so much respect for Fluther. Even @Fly who people claimed “should understand the guidelines better than anyone because she’s Augustlan’s daughter” quoted the guidelines incorrectly and stated the opposite.
Thanks for your input.

JLeslie's avatar

@janelle Here’s the thing. Most everyone here likes the guidelines, the mods, and trusts them to be fair. The mods have pissed me off at times. I’ve had responses of mine removed that I feel should have stayed. In the beginning I had a few questions sent back for editing, because I didn’t quite understand the rules yet. But, here is what I know, the mods care about the standards, and are not controlling mean, power hungry people. We all have some questions we probably wish were not out there still hanging around on the internet, but on fluther, Q’s don’t get erased.

You asked a good question. It received a lot of responses. Many were serious answers.

You are beating your head against a wall. You won’t get your way. No problem with having stated your opinion and trying, but the answer is no. In a few days it will be no big deal if you just stop. Trust me. You are keeping your frustration level up by not letting it go. I am like you, I wind myself up, especially when I think something is unfair, but for something like this it isn’t worth it.

I think @gailcalled is right, at this point you need the last word, and I think it is working against you staying in the debate. Working against you emotionally. It is past venting at this point, and most people here want you to feel better, their reponses are not to make you feel like you are wrong, but to try to help you understand and feel better. This will be my last post here, because I truly feel the discussion at this point hurts you more than doing you any good. I hope others stop too. Wasn’t your Q about your boyfriend not wanting to talk about things? Maybe he is too extreme about not talking, and you are too extreme about beating a conversation to death, or having to have your way, or having to win.

janelle's avatar

I don’t have much to say other than what I have already been saying, the conclusion that i’ve come to about Fluther.

Mama_Cakes's avatar

So, do you plan on sticking around?

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SuperMouse's avatar

@janelle can you please clarify what exactly your problem is. I have read through this entire thread and so far I have heard you say you wanted the question pulled so you could fix the typos, because you wanted to change the wording so it was more clear, and because some of the responses were flame-baitish and off-topic. Which is it? The fact that you have given three different reasons you wanted it pulled kind of lends credence to the theory that you wanted it to be returned for editing so you could abandon the question. Other signs that point in that direction include your previous question along these lines, and your seeming refusal to take @augustlan up on her offer to fix the typos and be done with this already.

I tend to think that @Aethelflaed makes a valid point about some edits seeming very picky and sometimes over the top. I think that mostly this can be chalked up to the mods being human and some noticing things that others might not. I will come right out and say that I know that sometimes I miss typos in questions and responses – my own and those of others.

gailcalled's avatar

@SuperMouse: The OP has left the site, for better or worse.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I’m a little late to the party but where are the pancakes and….
@janelle “put your big girl pants on”.

This is an issue where the original question by the OP did not get the answers and responses the OP thought the question should get.
Reading a question and answering it; not the intended question by the OP. The answers are still valid.

AshlynM's avatar

The op has more or less said what she wanted to say and has made her feelings perfectly clear on the subject. Anyone who wanted to participate has done so and then some. We can all argue over this til we’re blue in the face. I think we should just leave her alone now.

gailcalled's avatar

@AshlynM: She has chosen to leave us, alone or not, as the case may be.

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