Social Question

DWW25921's avatar

Is anyone else tired of this partisan foolishness?

Asked by DWW25921 (6213 points ) November 3rd, 2012

I’m one of those annoying staunch independent voters. I’m very pro union and small government! Tree huggers are awesome and so are coal miners! I digress… Anyway, it annoys me to no end as I consider both main parties to be obsolete and quite useless, to me anyway. All I see is 2 guys I don’t like skirting the issues that I care about. Anyone else feel this way? Nows your time to vent.

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42 Answers

ETpro's avatar

Count me in that Party. Coffee, no tea, thanks.

chyna's avatar

^^I’m right beside those two.

bookish1's avatar

YUSS. I’m not an independent voter, but highly frustrated.

DWW25921's avatar

Aah!!! My people awake! My in-laws are a republican and a democrat. Neither one is happy for who they “had” to vote for. Meanwhile, Gary Johnson was ignored through the whole process. It’s just not right.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, I think people like you are the problem, not partisans. It’s not like the two parties don’t have clear platforms and websites that explain their views.

I mean, God forbid anyone tries to stop you from masturbating about how “above the fray” you are. But if you’re so incapable of prioritizing your own views and your values and doing basic research about how they line up with Democrats and Republicans, don’t blame people who have.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu Typical example of the partisan bologna and hate speak that flows so readily from the bosom of obsolescence. It’s almost like the main parties are desperately trying to claw their way to the top regardless of whom they wound along the way.

“so incapable of prioritizing your own views” That doesn’t even make sense. If I were a “sheeple” as you suggest I would have followed one of those empty suits off the cliff they will undoubtedly lead america into. You’re not going to win a battle of wits with me my friend.

I know what I believe, I know why I believe it. Above all I am a patriot and I openly question both parties as their dogma appears more important to them than their country.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu You can be a republocrat if you wish and I am proud to be considered a problem to the likes of you. America is not a toy to be plundered by brats nor it is a prize to be won it is a nation that deserves an actual leader and not the blithering idiots that have purchased their offices in spite of the needs of the citizenry.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921 are you illiterate? You didn’t seem to actually read what I wrote. Or maybe you don’t understand what the word “prioritize” means.

You claim to have political views. For example, you say you like tree huggers, and at the same time, you like coal. Well, in many respects, those two views are mutually exclusive, since burning coal creates pollution, which is anathema to tree huggers.

A responsible person would be able to prioritize one view over the other and come to some sort of understanding. For example, I realize that coal is not magically going to disappear overnight, but I do support regulating coal power and gradually disincentivizing it in the marketplace in favor of cleaner sources of energy. Therefore, I support the Democratic position on coal power over the Republican one.

What about you? Can you tell us how you engage in the issues you brought up in your question?

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu “You didn’t seem to actually read what I wrote.” Yes I did. It was reminiscent of a toddler pounding his highchair. Thusly, I didn’t give it much validity. Regardless, I will answer your question. I am not above the fray, I am in it, and I have no problem with that.

I live in West Virginia. I appreciate my natural surroundings. I also appreciate the responsible use of an abundant natural resource. Burning coal can be filtered, it is expensive but turns out it’s still cheaper than many other sorts of fuel. Incidentally, chemicals can be added so it won’t burn and it makes great insulation among other things. The United States would be foolish to disregard a natural resource we have such an abundance of. This means we don’t have to rely on anyone else for it. We need more resources like that. Not less.

How I engage in the issues at hand is through careful assessment of the needs of my community and I vote accordingly. For example, I do not have kids but I gladly pay school taxes. The main parties seem to have forgotten that voting for the will of the people is what this country was founded on. What of patriotism through all of this?

I have no problem at all discussing any issue.

wundayatta's avatar

I’m tired of partisanship. I’m tired of foolishness, too. I wish the Republicans would take advantage of chances to acquire the same information I have. I wish they would not take such an ideological point of view, but would be willing to look at facts. Then I think we could have a much more constructive dialog and maybe get some more productive work done.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, great, you support clean coal, and it sounds like you support regulating the burning of coal so as to incentivize clean coal technology. So your views on this subject line up precisely with the Democratic party.

Let’s try another issue. You say you’re pro union but small government. Well, in what respect do you mean “small government”? Less social spending? Less military spending? Less regulation? Less of certain kinds of regulation? Less social laws, such as those regarding abortion? The Democratic party is pro-union and favors “small government” in some ways, but not others.

Imadethisupwithnoforethought's avatar

All I see is a party of rational, thoughtful people attempting to apply demand side economics to solve economic problems in opposition to a party who believes an abundance of supply equals demand.

These supply siders declare themselves as direct descendants of the founding Americans, somehow ignoring that the original Americans took lands from the wealthy and gave to the poor in a massive wealth redistribution,

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu The majority of our national budget goes to entitlements. I have a problem with that. I’ve been out of work for almost a year. You know what? I’m entitled to nothing. I do odd jobs, internet stuff, my own small business on the side. I make it work. Able bodied people should get nothing. I would not be opposed to taking a good hard look at the entitlement system in this country and slicing it up.

Also, I believe the federal government as a whole would function a lot better if it was a lot smaller. If more responsibility falls on the states and local municipalities than so be it. The federal government has no business dictating anyone’s personal rights other than what was laid out in the constitution. It should be up to local municipalities to care for the immediate needs of the people. The only state that has thus far figured that out is Massachusetts.

To recap a few and go through your Q&A… Social spending on legitimate needs is fine but it needs to be overhauled. Our military should be large and strong because we’re freaking America dang it. There needs to be less national regulation and more local regulation. Give people the reigns of their communities. There should be no national laws regarding personal choices. That’s none of the governments business and should be handled locally.

Now for you, what of Mexico? Neither party has gone out of it’s way to solve our border problem. That is a federal job. Why haven’t we sent troops to protect our lands and people? Why waste resources trying to polish a turd in the middle east?

Why is it that when American goods go to a foreign port they’re taxed through the roof but when foreign ships come here we give them a free pass? Why are we wasting the opportunity to tax foreign goods and thusly shooting ourselves in the foot every time a ship comes to port? Why has neither main party addressed this?

Why are we spending billions of dollars fighting a “drug” that’s much less potent and destructive than alcohol? Why aren’t we legalizing and taxing marijuana? Hemp has huge resource capabilities that could make us as a nation Billions of dollars if properly regulated. Why have the main parties never considered this as an option?

gondwanalon's avatar

Perhaps the genius of Frank Zappa can be of enlightenment here:

“I am gross and perverted
Im obsessed n deranged
I have existed for years
But very little had changed
I am the tool of the government
And industry too
For I am destined to rule
And regulate you

I may be vile and pernicious
But you can’t look away
I make you think Im delicious
With the stuff that I say
I am the best you can get
Have you guessed me yet?
I am the slime oozin out
From your tv set

You will obey me while I lead you
And eat the garbage that I feed you
Until the day that we don’t need you
Don’t got for help…no one will heed you
Your mind is totally controlled
It has been stuffed into my mold
And you will do as you are told
Until the rights to you are sold”

Yes I’m tiered of all the slime constantly being feed to me from the left and the right. But what really blows my mind is that people actually believe the propaganda, rhetoric and lies! It just gives me the urge to vomit.

jordym84's avatar

YES!!!!

Normally I steer clear of political questions on here and I don’t even bother clicking on them to see what they’re all about, but this one caught my eye and I couldn’t agree more!! It’s just so damn frustrating! This whole bipartisanship thing seems more like child’s play to me: he said, she said; he did this, he failed to do that; dirt-digging; mud-slinging; name-calling; fake hand-shaking in public; blah blah blah; and on and on and on…

Ugh and I thought high school was supposed to be over when you entered the “real world.”

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, the majority of the federal budget goes to social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. You didn’t specify how exactly you’d like to reform these entitlements. If you think people are not entitled to a basic standard of living, I disagree with you—but I do think the system can be made better so as not to incentivize laziness.

In any case, if you really and truly believe that we should drastically cut these entitlement programs, that puts you in the Republican camp. The Democrats want to reinforce social entitlements. On the other hand, you said “social spending on legitimate needs is fine.” What is a legitimate need?

You said our military needs to be strong. We already spend more on our military than the next 19 countries combined. We have more aircraft carriers than all other countries, combined. You want us to spend more? $2 trillion more? Why? And what about our debt?

As for Mexico, I’m not sure what exactly you are suggesting we do. Here is what Obama has done. Are you saying you want to further militarize the border? Are you saying you want us to send special forces into Mexico to assassinate cartel kingpins? (We are already advising Mexican special ops). Or what?

Next you ask about tariffs. First of all the premise of your question is flawed; “foreign goods” are not monolithic. And not all export goods have the same tariffs. Secondly, we do impose some tariffs, such as 30% on Chinese solar panels. Now, why don’t we get more aggressive about this? The answer is that it could easily start a trade war. Mitt Romney has argued that China has more to lose from a trade war than we do because of the balance of trade, but that ignores practical considerations like the fact that our economy is still quite fragile and China’s is more robust and adept at handling shocks. In any case, the strategy you are suggesting is certainly risky.

As for drugs? I agree with you, and I think most Democrats do. I also wish that drug legalization was a national issue, and I think it’s an important one because imprisoning nonviolent drug offenders imposes huge social costs. But apprarently it’s not in the cards for the immediate future. Oh well. There will be primaries in four years. You should support a primary candidate who says he or she will campaign on legalization.

___________

So, thanks for sharing your views and engaging in a discussion about them. And I’m sure your views are different from mine. But what I don’t understand is why you cannot rank your views in importance. Some of your views line up with the Democratic party, and others line up with the Republican party. And maybe a few others are unafilliated. You are not unique. That’s how it is for everyone. My views do not line up 100% with the Democratic party either. But a majority of my views—the ones I hold the most important—do. So I vote Democrat. And I simply don’t believe that your political views are somehow equally split between the parties.

ETpro's avatar

@DWW25921 Well dang. That’s the shortest time yet I’ve ever been a member of a Party. Your problem is you want some of the things done Democrats support, some Republicans support, and some neither support. No, that’s actually fine to want. That’s not your problem. Your problem is that less than 50% of the American Public embraces your exact political agenda, and so even if both parties became lovey-dovey or if we went to a multi-party system or a Prime Minister instead of a President as head of state, your agenda ain’t happening.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu @ETpro I hate to do this to you but I’m going to bed. You both bring up an interesting point. But, what if my way of thinking more closely relates to the Libertarian party? Do I go against what I believe and vote for the lesser of 2 evils anyway? Or do I stick to my guns and vote for what I believe is best for my country? I may not be counted but I can live with myself knowing I chose the best candidate. I realize there’s a lot of give and take with issues to make a fit. I fit best here. I can’t be any other way.

ETpro's avatar

@DWW25921 That’s your call to make.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, politics is the lesser of two evils. You seem to think that politics is about your integrity as a voter. I strongly disagree. Politics, and voting, is about the country, and what direction the government will go in.

If I was more concerned with my own integrity I might vote green party instead of Dem; but the current reality of our political system is that it is two-party, so I pick the party that actually has a chance of guiding the country towards the way I want more.

That said: if libertarianism best reflects your views, vote in the primaries. Both parties have strong strains of libertarianism. You can help either party nominate candidates with more libertarian views than Obama and Romney.

ETpro's avatar

@DWW25921 Being tired and not up to another long rant last night (1:30 AM) I cut my response short too. But I strongly agree with @Qingu. With all that is wrong with partisan politics, it’s an inescapable consequence of working democracy that you have to put up with. The Libertarian Party doesn’t exactly match your wish list either. What’s more, they have no possible chance of building a governing majority.

Without any party that’s organized enough to push forward a particular set of policies, nothing ever gets done. No country will ever remain great and keep pace with the future through total stagnation. Not having to pay any taxes might seem like a great argument for living without governance, but Somalia at its worst isn’t my idea of paradise.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu “Politics, and voting, is about the country, and what direction the government will go in” Too true and that why I vote the way I do. I am not inclined to thinking that it’s all about my needs although that plays a part. I feel that I vote for what’s best for my community as well. I am not at all happy with the Republicans or the Democrats and I can’t see myself going that way. They are downright hateful towards each other. I could never go that way. I could never endorse that.

@ETpro I should not have to concede and “put up with” the person I vote for. I want the person I vote for to convince me that he or she is above the foolishness and wants to get down to business. I disagree with a few points of Libertarianism but all in all it is the best fit for me and I think if this country gives it a change we will be better off for it. I honestly don’t believe in Obama or Romney enough to vote for them.

@ETpro @Qingu Things are never going to get better if we continue to give up and accept what is handed to us. America is about diversity. Personal choices are a right and a privilege given to us by the men and women who fought for it. People who vote along party lines, regardless of the useless empty suits they elect are the problem. As a nation we need to think! Think about what’s best for everyone! Staying the course and not giving up is something I’ve learned is an important American value.

I’ve given this analogy before but I think it fits. Say there’s a family with 2 cars. Mom and dad happily went where they wanted to go for years. They were useful for a long time and mom and dad appreciated that and became very loyal. Turn out as these cars got older they became less functional. Mom and dad were still loyal but to be honest they’re really not happy with their cars performance.

Mom and dad argue about which old derelict runs better. Regardless of the vehicles functional obsolescence they have a huge number of loyal followers. They kind of work but have a tendency to go off in strange directions or even backwards at times. It seems the corporations that paid for the cars upkeep are more in control than the drivers.

America is nothing more than a power game to these people. America is more than that to me. It frankly disturbs me as it seems that patriotism has been cast aside for the sake of partisanship. The days of this foolishness are coming closer to an end. At least I have hope and optimism enough to believe so.

I have a friend who was in an abusive relationship for years. I asked her why she stayed and she told me it’s all she knows. A comfort zone is a dangerous place to be and if you’re in it long enough you don’t even realize you’re being messed with. American voters are in an abusive and unproductive relationship with their political parties. It is causing more problems for us as a nation than it solves. This cycle must end.

I will never choose the lesser of 2 evils. There is too much at risk here.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, but “Democrat” and “Republican” are the two directions you can choose when you vote. You can of course pick individual local politicians on your ballot from both parties, and there might even be some competitive libertarians in your district. But libertarians are not competitive on the national stage, so your vote for them will signify nothing except that both parties can ignore you, and it will do nothing for your community or improving this country. It will certainly do nothing to end the “cycle” of abuse that you think exists. No political party will change because you vote for Gary Johnson; instead they will simply not bother to court people like you in future elections, much like how Democrats ignore hippies who vote green party. All such a vote will do is make you feel better about yourself.

When you say “I will never choose the lesser of two evils,” what you’re telling me is that you are choosing not to participate in our political system. There will never be a politician that you do not strongly disagree with in some respect.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu I beg to differ as both parties have tried to appease me and my people. Many have given in. I reckon it’s their choice. I suppose I’m one of those hard liners. That’s fine with me. I can live with that. I actually don’t feel ignored at all. Both parties know that I, and people like me could go either way. Even if I was being ignored, would it hurt that I feel better about myself? I mean, I’m in West Virginia. It’s a state the candidates don’t bother visiting. I’m not exactly in a “swing state every vote matters” type scenario and thusly can afford to be a bit creative.

I will concede that if I were in a larger state maybe things would be different? I’m not there so I don’t know. I vote according to my and my communities needs. You stated that, “you are choosing not to participate in our political system.” I wouldn’t take it to that extreme because I’m clearly involved but at the same time I have no problem at all distancing myself from this system. I am not proud of this system and don’t reckon I want to go out of my way to endorse it. If that makes you feel that I’m not a participant than so be it.

Qingu's avatar

“Your people”? You are not a goddamn tribe of Israel.

You can only afford to be “creative” because there are people in your non-swing state, people like myself, who are willing to put in the time and effort to vote for what they see as the better of two choices. Assuming you actually have worked out a belief about which choice would be better, you are taking advantage of those people—mooching off of them.

Nullo's avatar

@Qingu The tribes of Israel weren’t the first people to refer to their fellows as their people. It’s pretty common, IIRC. In this case, it means “people of a similar mindset.”

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu 4 people have told me to abstain from talking to you. I haven’t listened. Although I must say if your last answer is any indication I’m beginning to doubt that having an intelligent conversation with you is possible. It seems you attack people that don’t agree with you. You’ve built up your name here to that end.

Quoting myself, in my first response to you, “Typical example of the partisan bologna and hate speak that flows so readily from the bosom of obsolescence. It’s almost like the main parties are desperately trying to claw their way to the top regardless of whom they wound along the way.” Every time you open your mouth you consistently prove me right.

Your last answer was unintellectual dribble. I realize now, it’s simply not possible to have an intelligent conversation with you. My first impression was correct. Now, you can prove me wrong by acting civil or I can block you. It really makes no difference to me.

Qingu's avatar

Only four, huh.

Maybe you’re just not used to having your positions challenged. You seem to have assumed from the outset that there is some sort of inherent nobility to being an “independent,” to staking out a middle position between two poles of an argument—an assumption which I obviously think is baseless.

I do have to say, I find your hurt feelings here to be sort of funny in light of your attacks against partisans “fools” like me, said our political views are BS, and compared our organizations to abusive husbands.

If you aren’t prepared to take criticism for your views, don’t start an entire fucking question that criticizes other people’s views.

bkcunningham's avatar

@DWW25921, add my name to the list. I’ll be number 5.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu “Maybe you’re just not used to having your positions challenged” Really? Come on now bud, that’s just silly. The irony here is that I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. On the other hand, you feel that everyone is entitled to your lofty opinion and scoff at all others who oppose you! Do you want me to look back at your posts? Really?

Well I have and I’m a little dismayed at what I found. Constant poking and belittling comments and flat out rudeness. I have never said anything that I regret or that I don’t believe to be true. That’s the difference between you and I. I am not in the least worried about an employer or family member looking over what I have written.

You’re not important enough to hurt my feelings. To be fair, I am under no delusion that I am important enough to hurt yours. The difference between you and I is I try to use tact and go out of my way not to. Whereas you have a tendency to roll over people.

Yes, I openly criticize partisan bickering which oddly enough you defended in your last sentence so vehemently. Are you even paying attention to what’s going on bud? Really? I’m giving you a chance to prove yourself as people that don’t like you are following this post, you go ahead and shoot yourself in the foot! Now, against my better judgement and for the sake in my own personal optimism in the progress of humanity I will try to ask you a few simple questions, heaven forbid on topic.

First of all, due to the obvious declining functionality of the main parties does it not make sense for people to start over with a clean slate?

Knowing that my values and ideals more closely line up with a third party, considerably more than the others, why would I not follow my gut and do what’s right even if it’s against the grain?

I’m not a Libertarian first, I’m an American first. Why is that comment so contrary to the Republocrat doctrine?

wundayatta's avatar

Come on, people. We know who everyone is voting for. We know we don’t like the same people. Votes are not going to be changed now. What remains is the fights over policy that will be coming up. Immigration, health care, taxes, the deficit and so on. Maybe even FEMA and global warming policy.

The problem, in my opinion, is that we don’t understand how someone could vote for the other guy. That’s because it so often seems like Republicans make their decisions based on gut feelings (they can’t offer good evidence to back up their points of view), and this frustrates Democrats since we make our decisions based on facts and data. We’re scientists.

Whenever we try to talk facts, the Republicans seem to veer off into lala land very quickly. They get facts from nowhere and refuse to back them up. They make up facts, just like their guy. When that happens, the discussion degenerates into stupidity.

I am beginning to think that the cultural divide is too wide. We can’t even understand each other because we don’t use words the same way. We don’t communicate the same way. We are too culturally different.

WHen that happens, then there’s nothing for it but to score points against folks from the other side. They can’t understand you, after all. So why not just count coup? It helps alleviate some of the frustration. You guys just make us crazy.

DWW25921's avatar

@wundayatta You have some good insight here. I appreciate that. If it’s any consolation I will be voting for 2 local republicans I believe in for offices in my area and Joe Manchin who is a democrat. The rest will be 3rd party. I don’t believe in either of the presidential candidates so I’m going a different way. Gotta love Joe though, I don’t think he’s been infected by Washington yet. I digress, thanks for your reply

wundayatta's avatar

Ok, @bkcunningham, you got me! We’re not all scientists, lol!

DWW25921's avatar

I frankly like being able to vote the best person for the job regardless of party affiliation. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do anyway?

wundayatta's avatar

@DWW25921 Of course you are. But how you decide who is best—that’s something others can easily question your judgment about.

Qingu's avatar

@DWW25921, in case it wasn’t obvious, I honestly don’t give a shit if @bkcunningham, bless her heart, doesn’t like me.

And I’m sorry, but you don’t get to whine about “rudeness” when you wrote a question about partisan foolishness in which you compare people like me to wife batterers. Either grow a thicker skin or stop being a hypocrite.

As for the substance of your post: I don’t know how to make this any clearer. I reject your premise. You are assuming that “the parties” are inherently wrong and “independents” are inherently right. I think this is ridiculous. I agree primarily with the positions of one party and strongly disagree with the positions of the other party. I am a “partisan” because I think one party is mostly right and the other party is mostly wrong.

If you would like to have a discussion about the particular issues in question, I am game, as anyone here will tell you. I would love to discuss trade policy with you, our military with you, the balancing act between fossil fuel use and environmentalism.

What I will not do is assume at the outset that your views on these subjects are better than mine, because you’re an independent and I’m a partisan. Nor will I pretend that wasting your vote on a third party is more noble or better for the country than prioritizing your values and voting for the candidate that better expresses them.

DWW25921's avatar

@Qingu “in which you compare people like me to wife batterers” Wow. Clearly you didn’t read what I wrote or you’re crafting your own spin like a typical Republocrat. Simply stated, not unlike an abusive relationship where a person finds a comfort zone in being constantly harassed, the republocrats regularly toy and harass their loyal followers and in the same way they stay loyal. It’s absolutely true, I stand by what I actually said, not your spin.

Ironically, you flat out lied about what I wrote and called ME a hypocrite! To make the irony even more profound you said I don’t have a thick skin whereas you can’t even stay civil and on topic. Another one of your falsehoods, I never said the parties were wrong. I said they were obsolete. Have you been paying attention? I also said I was voting for a couple people from the parties! Are we reading the same post or are you just making stuff up?

You naturally avoid my civility and questions and bring up a few things you’d rather talk about instead. That’s pretty juvenile. But that’s fine. At least I’m having fun. You can flat out lie and misrepresent all you want. The more you do, the more solidly my main point is driven home. You actually are the pinnacle, the absolute nexus of the problem with this country. Lies and spin are all they know. Anything to win. It’s sad, really.

Please feel free to come at me with my own words. Make sure they are actually mine first. It’s amusing to me how you get so heated so fast and desperately try to prove a point with easily proven to be false information. I will leave you with a former quote of mine.

“It’s almost like the main parties are desperately trying to claw their way to the top regardless of whom they wound along the way.”

Qingu's avatar

I didn’t misquote you.

If you want to talk about the issues, I’m here. I’m done with the meta-argument, however.

ETpro's avatar

Well, I voted. I hope all of the rest of you did, regardless of what party you chose to cast your ballot for.

And when I got back from the 5-minute process here in Massachusetts (8 hour lines, WTF?) I found a link to this short video in my email. Its message is right on target about the rancor and vitriol that lately dominates US politics.

“Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings…” Seems a fine example of that to me.

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