Social Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

People want God to prevent massacres of the innocent or horrendous disasters, if He stepped in and did that and wanted to step in and control other areas how would people feel?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (21520 points ) December 15th, 2012

Several times over the past 24hrs I hear how could God let that happen to those little kids, and at Christmas time to boot; why did He not put a stop to it before it happened. Why is it people want God to come to the rescue and prevent a disaster or save people like children from a calamity but they don’t want God to take a part in any other part of their lives? What if God would have stepped in and prevented that massacre but then decided there were other areas He needed to step into and if people did not obey disaster would fall on this nation, would people see that as an even trade off?

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79 Answers

FutureMemory's avatar

Fine with me. I say bring on the divine intervention, both when disaster strikes and also when us faulty humans need a guiding hand.

<awaiting His help>

ninjacolin's avatar

I believe anything god would do to help would be appreciated.. as long as it helped.

kitszu's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Ever seen footage of both teams praying before a big game? When only one team wins, do you think it was because god liked that team better than the other? My own religious views aside, I think it’s humanities natural trait of hubris that makes us believe our small (relatively speaking) worlds would matter to the supreme being that created them in the first place, let alone that he favors one prayer over another.

Coloma's avatar

“God” if he/she/it exists has nothing to do with preventing anything. “God” supposedly gave free agency to humans, and IF, there is any truth to biblical tales, well….forget about God, and blame these crimes on the devil instead.

Kropotkin's avatar

Seems it’s the least that a supposedly omnipotent being could do.

Just pretending that this god thing exists at all, for argument’s sake, it seems odd that it would “design” our brains to be prone to physiological and psychological defects resulting in all sorts of violent and anti-social behaviours in various individuals, as well as lots of other mental disorders which affects tens of millions of people in the US alone.

Just continuing the hypothetical that this god exists at all (which it almost certainly doesn’t.) It supposedly created this planet for our habitat, yet the Earth is very often hostile and kills countless millions of people regularly through floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, storms, volcanos, and probably some other events I’ve missed.

This god would also have created all the pathogens that afflict and kill countless millions. And life itself is mostly organisms brutally killing eating each other in order to feed and survive. Seems rather cruel to me.

Also, how does a god “decide” anything at all? Decision making is a heuristic dependent on limited information. It’s my understanding of gods that they supposedly know everything. A god cannot decide anything at all.

And what’s this vague threat about disaster befalling on the nation? Is this some ridiculous constraint the god is limited by? It could prevent a mass shooting, but would then have to be a busybody in other ways? I don’t get the point of this diversion in your question—you could at least have been more specific.

I would appreciate a god to actually intervene in mass shootings as well as preventing natural disasters and diseases, because it is purported to have the power to do so. Hell, I’d even be amazed and delighted if a god saved just one life at some point. But as other non-existent and imagined entities, they always fail to deliver.

Blackberry's avatar

People are looking for anything to grasp to understand why this happened. God is one of those things. Take notice at how these questions came after the tragedy.

Coloma's avatar

@Kropotkin Well…the whole premise is that “God” created perfect beings but the disobedient Eve seduced Adam into eating the apple, and..well… enter evil and suffering.
Ya know…the greatest “story” ever told and all that jazz. haha.

Coloma's avatar

@Blackberry Exactly! Basic degenerate organisms are too hard for people to accept.

kitszu's avatar

Again, what’s good for the goose is not always good for the gander. There is always the contemplation of each human being having a parallel universe for each senario that could have ever possibly played out for every minute of their lives (or maybe only the ones the prayed about). That said, in one of those universes they made some bad plays and lost the game anyway.

mazingerz88's avatar

I think people would feel resentful if God asks people to do something for him when He steps in to help. I mean He is God. He is not a puny mortal human being. What could he possibly gain for acting like, well…Uncle Sam’s big goverment-? : )

bolwerk's avatar

I was in the subway today and heard someone singing “Nothing is too hard for God.” Bring it, Sky Spook!

FutureMemory's avatar

@kitszu Again, what’s good for the goose is not always good for the gander. There is always the contemplation of each human being having a parallel universe for each senario that could have ever possibly played out for every minute of their lives (or maybe only the ones the prayed about). That said, in one of those universes they made some bad plays and lost the game anyway.

Are you related in some way to @Hypocrisy_Central ?

kitszu's avatar

At some point would it be possible for us to get past vasilating between blaming god or the evil female he first created and start taking some personal responsibility for the freewill we are supposed to have?

There is no explaining what happened even if they can somehow psychoanalyze him post-mortem when no one seemed to think there was anything wrong with him when he was alive. I have a teenager in a good school like the ones that seem to breed this particular kind of violence. I balled my eyes out watching the news footage last night because I could only imagine how devastated those parents are and hope with all my heart that I’ll never have to know.

People need for someone to be responsible, the less sense they can make of some tragedy, the more inclined they are to ask “Why would god let this happen?”. People need to feel like they have a gaurdian angel when a tragedy strikes close to home, so they say “Thank you god for sparing me!”

If you need to blame god for hurrican Sandy fine. I just want someone to explain how god was in anyway involved in this or any of the other school shootings beyond having bestowed free will to all of humanity. Do you think god plays favorites? Chose to spare some and let others be killed? Should he, knowing what these people were intending to do, have revoked their right to that free will?

I know I’m beating the horse here, my opinions are my own and it is not my place or intention to attempt to take anyone’s beliefs away. I’m just really distrubed by the lack of rational thought in the majority of what I’m hearing. We can not allow an irrational act, no matter how sickening, to…

I’m hoping someone will get what I’ve been trying to say and fill in that blank for me.

Does anyone know that early this morning a man entered a hospital in alabama with a gun and shot two hospital employees and a cop before another cop caught him by suprise and killed him? I didn’t have the stomach to read it but saw a headline about some kid in OK being held on charges in a school shooting conspiracy.

Has the whole fucking world gone insane?

kitszu's avatar

@Coloma Humans attribute false blame and false praise opportunistically

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Kropotkin It He supposedly created this planet for our habitat, yet the Earth is very often hostile and kills countless millions of people regularly through floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, storms, volcanos, and probably some other events I’ve missed. Lets look at it this way, if you had children, this is who you and your mate birth even less so created, you did your best to provide a warm bed, good food, DVDs for entertainment, a laptop for homework, etc and all the child did was spit on you and cuss you out never listening to any of the things you warned not to do, what do you believe would happen? If you say brush your teeth, take a bath, don’t play with fire, don’t go out in that area at night, don’t try to surf shopping carts down the hill, and they ignore you and do those things anyhow, you can’t see some skinned knees, burnt fingers, rotten hurting teeth with cavities, them reeking and stinking while they are getting robbed in the wrong neighborhood at 2am in the morning? He made a PERFECT planet for man, again MAN chose to shuck all of that aside to do what he wanted to do; don’t blame God, man done it to himself. If your kid jumps off the roof with an umbrella thinking it will break his fall but he breaks his leg, it is his fault if you told him not to do it and what will happen if he did.

I would appreciate a god to actually intervene in mass shootings as well as preventing natural disasters and diseases, because it is purported to have the power to do so. Hell, I’d even be amazed and delighted if a god saved just one life at some point. But as other non-existent and imagined entities, they alwaysfail to deliver. What about a God that intervene in a mass shooting but also intervened if you did not pray in the morning or give Him His props, and he inflicted you with a sickness or caused an electrical outlet to go haywire and burn your house down, would that be a fair trade off? Would you expect your child to always expect gifts and money from you and not even give you the respect of being his/her parent? That even the small things they tell you go to hell, they will be back when the cash runs out so you can go to the ATM again and give them what they ask, you can live with that, right?

Coloma's avatar

@kitszu I already spoke of “free agency” AKA free will. I am not religious, I only “blame” the upsurge of mental illness and whatever stressors so many seem not able to cope with in these difficult times. What’s done is done, and sadly, there is no reason that can possibly comfort these families.

kitszu's avatar

@Coloma My tendency is to answer the initial question and skim randomly later. I’m still working on getting the lay of the land here. Anyway dear, if we made the same point in two different ways I consider that twice the number of people who would of understood what we were saying otherwise.

ETpro's avatar

I came here to say what @Kropotkin already eloquently expressed.

I’ll just add, when have you ever seen cause and effect suspended, even for a brief time. If there is a creator, that creator clearly does not intervene in cause and effect. It is more the watchmaker creator, designing a mechanism and setting it running, then leaving it to its own devices. I am flabbergasted by people who are delusional enough to pray for intervention by a god, who if it gave a shit, would have obviously already intervened. I find the “God’s thoughts are higher than your thoughts” line of argument takes us into the logical fallacies of “question begging” and “circular logic.”

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

“Why is it people want God to come to the rescue and prevent a disaster or save people like children from a calamity but they don’t want God to take a part in any other part of their lives?”

That seems like the right answer because most people do not want innocent children to die and these beautiful children had not yet lived their lives nor had their lives even begun & they will never be able to now that this useless act has taken place that is horrific. 
I do think that God makes the choices because we are all his children and I do think to Him we are all equal.  So whether he takes children or grampas or murderers someone suffers somewhere and to Him the pain he inflicts on us is not easy.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

He does not want us to suffer he wants us to have eternal life.  He can only support us through his word and through how he has made us to be, imagine after this school shooting the outpouring of support that the families will get because of this horrific act. The emotional act of support [to me] is a testament of good/God and is made from Him because we are all made in his image not evil/Devil who would not support this type of union. This shooting was evil and useless.  Violence is never an answer.  People die every day, I’m not saying that is a good thing and I’m not by any means saying this shooting was ok but if we have faith in God then maybe just maybe when the unthinkable does happen that if there is a heaven we can be somewhat assured that our loved ones are happy where they are going and are there waiting for us.  I’m not even sure what the harm is in believing, but I also believe God sort of chooses our paths and sets His “rules” and because he has given us free will he lets us either choose good/God or evil/devil.

Kropotkin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I don’t know where to begin. Your narrative is so phantasmagorically absurd that I can’t believe that you really believe what you wrote. Firstly… the Earth is a geologically active planet; this means that things like earthquakes and volcanos and tsunamis will happen inevitably and regardless of human behaviour or even human presence—Nothing to do with being unruly or disobedient, or jumping off rooftops with an umbrella. The Earth also has a climate system, with some regions prone to frequent tornados and storms. Most of the Earth is also ocean, completely not habitable by humans. There’s also large regions of tundra and desert which are very difficult to live on. It’s actually human adaptation, and human application of technology that has made some places more habitable and disaster resistant than they would otherwise be. It’s not any sort of “perfect” planet or cosy home provided by a paternalistic god.

For the second part… You seem to be describing something akin to an egregiously venal and vindictive mafia don—“Worship him or something bad will happen!” I’ll sleep easily, confident that this god doesn’t exist either.

rooeytoo's avatar

You have free will, that means you can do what you want. Would you rather a god creature who controlled you and did not allow you to do anything that it deemed inappropriate?

Symbeline's avatar

What if God would have stepped in and prevented that massacre but then decided there were other areas He needed to step into and if people did not obey disaster would fall on this nation, would people see that as an even trade off?

If God is real He doesn’t take appointments. He should be able to intervene in as many things as He wants, because He’s not restricted by things like time, or other stuff that we’re restricted to. I mean come on, He’s God. Not that I understand what a god would be like, besides them being a god, you understand…

Seeing that we’re supposed to be imperfect sinners, God shouldn’t expect us to make the right decisions and decide shit for ourselves otherwise why would He even need to intervene? What exactly am I supposed to learn from God if not this? :( If learning means having children die or whole nations washed by death and famine and war, then that’s a little too hardcore for me man.

Fact is here, if a God exists, he CAN stop this kinda stuff if desired, but He doesn’t. Maybe He has His reasons though. I’m not arguing that.

But if He intervened? That would rule! Who wants to see kids die, besides fucking maniacs who kill them? Nobody, that’s who. I don’t think God does tradeoffs though, He’s supposed to love everyone equally and should have the power to make our lives safe. All of us. I mean God created everything and has absolute power, so the way shit works with the beliefs seems like He’s playing a cruel game with us, like a kid trapping ants and messing up the tunnels every single time they get some cred going.

So yeah, it would rock if God helped us out on our doomed existence, but I don’t see for a second how anything is justified if others need more help, and another party must be sacrificed for the cause. Not with the claim that God loves us all and is all powerful. Shit, hold up, a butterfly just landed on my shoulder. Shoo you nasty thing! ’‘waves it away’’

_Why is it people want God to come to the rescue and prevent a disaster or save people like children from a calamity but they don’t want God to take a part in any other part of their lives? _

Ain’t that what God does? Save people? Personally, I’d LOVE if a God existed, if He was all cool anshit.

kitszu's avatar

@rooeytoo Lol, the “free will”/“why didn’t god intervene” irony never ceases to amuse me. Makes me double take while thinking “fucking cookie?” (Just read that as a cross between ‘really?!’ and the confusion that accompanies certain absurdities). Have your free will and gods cell on speed dial if you need to take away someone elses or your own (if you commited the crimes in His name, you’re covered, right?)

kitszu's avatar

@Symbeline Did you actually take a stand in that post or were you trying to play mediator? You’ve used at least two points almost verbatim that others had already posted.

After trying to unknot the tangled ass mess that you posted, I don’t think even god knows what you’re talking about.

Symbeline's avatar

If He doesn’t know what I’m on about, guess I’ll take my chances in Hell bro. :D

kitszu's avatar

@Symbeline See you there dear. That’s where all the cool kids hang out anyway, lol.

Shippy's avatar

We live on the earthly plane no matter what you believe in. In all things people have choice. No one believes in God yet blames him? It’s is as odd as saying “why didn’t the universal powers of good intervene”. Unfortunately earth is human run. Yesterday I was just angry at this killer, today I am sad, sad at what has happened to people in society. And it seems like no one is trying to help. There are lessons in everything. If we look closely enough.

dabbler's avatar

Presuming there is a God/Goddess overseeing us in all-knowing, all-powerful wisdom, then there s no reason to imagine our puny minds can fathom his/her intent. And there is no reason to imagine that God didn’t intervene and/or cause what has happened.
For all we know there was a latent Hitler among the apparently innocent kids.
For all we know there was a super science genius among the kids who would have accidentally melted us all down in an accidentally created black hole.

But more likely @Coloma is pointing the right direction, God/Goddess has given us free-will to define and refine humanity as we will. It’s up to us collectively to create a species we can be proud of…
God/Goddess is welcoming us to be Gods. To take charge, each of us, of our own existence and create heaven on Earth. So far our puny minds do not seem up to the task, we are usually a hair’s breadth away from being instinctual animals most of the time, but we have all the time in the universe to get it right.

Coloma's avatar

@kitszu No offense,however, your repeated use of the word “dear” comes across as rather condescending.” No need to defend it’s use ,just sayin’. :-)

ucme's avatar

I saw the bugger once, he was stood on his hands “hopping” as he went along, god really does move in mysterious ways.

Symbeline's avatar

@dabbler ’‘And there is no reason to imagine that God didn’t intervene and/or cause what has happened. For all we know there was a latent Hitler among the apparently innocent kids.
For all we know there was a super science genius among the kids who would have accidentally melted us all down in an accidentally created black hole.’’

Maybe, but that strikes me as odd. If there was a Hitler among those kids, why didn’t God make it so just that one kid dies? I think His power would be enough that He doesn’t have to resort to some type of kamikaze method. Plus why was Hitler allowed to live, and why was he allowed to carry on for as long as he did with his madness? Why wasn’t there a shooting back then where little Adolf could have lost his life? And what, were all those Jews destined to be even worse than Hitler if they hadn’t all been massacred?
I certainly see what you’re saying, but it has major flaws and I certainly hope this isn’t how God works…

Maybe free will is true then, but The Bible does say that here on Earth, we need to get ready to be received by the lord, I don’t think it says anything about creating Heaven on Earth, so I suppose we’re doomed to skull fuck one another until the Apocalypse. :/

dabbler's avatar

Are you saying that God’s plan for Hitler was flawed ?

dabbler's avatar

God’s logic is whatever it is. Are you pretending that you understand the big picture the way God does ? Just because you can ask why and why not doesn’t mean God doesn’t have a perfectly good answer to every one of your questions.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

I’m following this question.  It actually amazes me by the amount of none believers just by lurve alone! ALL THE SIGNS ARE THERE. YOU ARE BLIND IF YOU DON’T SEE THEM.

These signs are in nature, in the world and in the church just look them up in the news, I kid you not and they have been already told to us thru scriptures like in my examples of #1thru 6.

This next scripture has happened right here on Fluther!

Knowing this first: that “scoffers” will come “in the last days”, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?” For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue on as they were from the beginning of creation. 2 Peter 3:3–4
 
1)By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood. Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.* —*Hosea 4:2–3

2)hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? Job 38:22–23

3)Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom Luke 21:10

4)This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 Timothy 3:1

5)and there shall be famines, and pestilences Matthew 24:7

6)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Matthew 24:9–10

The “only” unpardonable sin is to reject God’s love and His free offer of life in Heaven by rejecting Jesus Christ, the Messiah, who stepped forth from Heaven… not to condemn the sinner, but to “save” the sinner (from Hell) and who willingly and lovingly shed His blood on the Cross so we can be washed clean of “all” of our sins.  The Bible warns there will be no peace in our hearts until we make peace with God through His Son, the Messiah, Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m not a Bible thumper, but I do believe in God, and in His word. Please don’t hate on me for it

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: that’s a lot of Bible thumpin’ for someone who ain’t a Bible thumper. Just sayin’.

Symbeline's avatar

@dabbler

Are you saying that God’s plan for Hitler was flawed ?

Erm, what part of the plan might that be? Explain.

Are you pretending that you understand the big picture the way God does ?

No. Are you? I have the right the right to question God. If He didn’t want me to question Him, He should have made it so that I don’t have the mind to be able to do so. And in no way, nowhere, did I say that should God be real, He doesn’t have a reason for His work. I criticize the potential ways, I don’t see the justification in the ways, should ways there indeed be, but I don’t say there is no reason behind the ways. Find where I did.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@bolwerk it may seem like that from my comment and my use of scriptures from the Bible, but to me a “Bible Thumper” is someone who actually is so into religion they pound their own religion into you (sometimes actually with their own bible) so as to try to make you believe in their religion and they NEVER quit.

That was not my intent. My purpose was solely to support my own belief. And just because I have knowledge of the Bible and its scripture I do not think that entitles me to the “Bible Thumper” tattoo.

You can drink “wine” occasionally to enjoy the spirit, or you can drink “wine” to be a drunk and be full of spirit. And you can simply choose to only smell the “wine” & never taste the spirit, or you can pretend that wine is not really alcohol. Either way that’s your prerogative, not mine….see no thumper exists here, unless you want to talk Disney?

kitszu's avatar

@Coloma I am not offended by constructive criticism and becoming defensive only undermines the reason it was offered in the first place.

That said, you get a ‘thank you’ x 2 since it was also what inspired the thoughts that lead to my next question. :)

dabbler's avatar

@Symbeline I don’t claim to understand God’s plan, nor do I question it. Why trouble my puny human mind with that?
God is, by definition if humans invented Him/Her, beyond our comprehension.

But it makes sense to me that if God has plans for us, whatever is going on is part of it.
If God doesn’t have plans for us, then here we are with what we got.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Kropotkin I could get into the first part of the answer but since you missed the gist of the question it would be unfruitful, even though *I DID SAY IT, AND PROUD OF IT.

For the second part… You seem to be describing something akin to an egregiously venal and vindictive mafia don—“Worship him or something bad will happen!” If you understood the gist of the question or the way the Lord works, this comment would be a non-starter. The ways of the Lord is love, long-suffering, mercy, benevolence, compassion, meekness, kindness, forgiveness, etc. The ways of man in his iniquity is malice, greed, envy, malice, aggression, slander, hate, anger, etc. Which list do you believe would yield more crime and negative actions? If you are not serving God your chances of doing the other are greater, less you misquote me for saying you WILL do all those things. God do not have to do anything to you to cause you to have a worse outcome, it is the usual byproduct of iniquity which is opposite of God.

Seeing that we’re supposed to be imperfect sinners, God shouldn’t expect us to make the right decisions and decide shit for ourselves otherwise why would He even need to intervene? What exactly am I supposed to learn from God if not this? Glad you asked. What you are suppose to learn from that is that by the iniquity we all are born with we are unqualified to drive the bus that is our lives and will always end up in the ditch weather we recognize the ditch from the road way. Only by having faith in Him, and giving Him the keys to the bus, that we will keep from the ditch and on the right path/road way. Does God expect and know we will take the keys and try to drive the bus, thus ending up in a ditch? Yes, but he will also tow our butts out of the ditch when we humble ourselves, admit we mucked it up, and allow Him to drive.

@Symbeline I mean God created everything and has absolute power, so the way shit works with the beliefs seems like He’s playing a cruel game with us, like a kid trapping ants and messing up the tunnels every single time they get some cred going. The way faith works is that you believe in the Word of God, who is God. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son, Jesus. You have faith at He exist, that he rose out of His grave and by doing so reconciled your relationship to God you could not do on your own. By beginning a sinner as we all are, you were covered with iniquity Adam and Eve let loose on the world. Think of it as soot, filth, and Heaven as a pristine white house, white furniture, rugs, curtains, etc. If you did not want your home defiled would you allow anyone with soot and filth on them to defile your home? Christ is the one at the gate that says come here, let me take you to the guest house, give you a shower and fresh sparkling clean garments to put on. You don’t have to accept the washing or the garment, but you can’t get into the Throne Room without doing so, God will not allow anyone to defile His home.

Looking at it as the ants you spoke of. Let’s say you got fond of a particular ant colony, you watched them, you marveled over them. The ants have no ideal you are up there watching them or helping them out. You know the snow is melting and the creek will rise, washing away the colony so you dig a trench around the colony deep enough to take the raising creek water away from the colony thus saving them from disaster. Taking it a step further, you somehow created those ants, you would not want any harm to come to them. Imagine they were special ants and you make contact with them, and you said “I will save you from this raising creek BUT, you will have to do this and that. Would that be an even trade? What if the ants said they did not want you meddling in their affairs if they had to worship you or give you credit, even if it meant being washed away by the raising creek? If you cared so much for them you gave your special ants the freedom to choose what they did and they choose to go their way even to getting swept away by the creek, it was a byproduct of their independence.

@dabbler _Presuming there is a God/Goddess overseeing us in all-knowing, all-powerful wisdom, then there s no reason to imagine our puny minds can fathom his/her intent. And there is no reason to imagine that God didn’t intervene and/or cause what has happened. _
For all we know there was a latent Hitler among the apparently innocent kids.
For all we know there was a super science genius among the kids who would have accidentally melted us all down in an accidentally created black hole. A very interesting point. Our trying to understand God, who created science, the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, the Author of the Universe, the Mighty I Am would be a larger gap than a toddler trying to understand PhD level quantum physics. God might have allowed this to happen to redeem the killer for His glory, to show that even one who does such wicked act can be saved. It is sad and I feel for the families, I rejoice for the children because I know they are in the Throne Room of God this very moment. I am envious in a healthy way that they got there before me and they are assured, no guess work as to their righteousness. They were “upped” to Heaven before they had the chance to blow it acting on the iniquity they were born into. THOSE KIDS ARE SAVED; I just hope their parents will do right and meet them there one day.

bolwerk's avatar

@Kropotkin: it’s really high time you start understanding how the Lord works. Because those who understand how the Lord works got things figured out. Umkay?

Kropotkin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “The ways of man in his iniquity is malice, greed, envy, malice, aggression, slander, hate, anger, etc.” Speak for yourself!

You never addressed the point I made about our brains being prone to physiological and psychological defects, which goes some way in explaining why people sometimes do violent, and harmful things (and even why they believe silly things.) If you contend that a god exists and designed our brains, then the god is also responsible for our behaviours and actions. If you think that we have some sort of free will that burdens us entirely with the responsibility of our actions as somehow separate from any external influences or internal physiological variables—then you are simply wrong.

Leaving aside any arguments about free will and moral responsibility. I was careful to select harmful things for which humans are undeniable not responsible for. These things are natural disasters and diseases, and are an intrinsic part of the Earth’s geology and life itself. This constitutes the problem of natural evil, which you have thus far have not addressed, and it even seems that you’re suggesting that we really are responsible for natural disasters—which is simply wrong.

I was inaccurate in referring to your description of god as a venal mafia don. It’s actually a lot more like a Kim Jong-Il, or the new North Korean leader, Kim Jong-Un. This is a man who is ascribed with various superlatives and greatness. He is deemed to be kind, generous, merciful, caring. He is the father of the nation—a paternal figurehead adored by all. He is purported to be responsible for all the good things in his country, and all his people should be thankful for all the things he’s done for them. The North Korean people themselves, in awe of his power and supposed greatness, and motivated either by fear or a genuine adoration, worship and praise him.

The psychological components of their belief; the emotional attachment to the paternal figurehead, the submission, the obedience, the veneration and praise of his character, are all remarkably similar to what religious people display—as you have—when they refer and relate to their god. The difference is is that Kim Jong-Un is a real person for which there is actual evidence for his existence, while gods are entirely imagined.

It is this last point I really want to drive home for you—I do not believe that your god is in any way a real thing with any basis in reality. I’m not angry at your god. I do not blame your god for anything. I see no god to serve and no godly instructions to obey. I’m not critical of your god. I’m not complaining that god isn’t doing enough. I’m not critical of your god’s character or traits. I simply think it is not real.

What we do have are different narratives or frameworks which help us relate to the world and make sense of things. I happen to think that your narrative—the theologically Christian one— is wildly inaccurate, primitive, simplistic, and at odds with most of what we’ve learned about reality.

P.S. By saying that I’ve missed the gist of your question, it appears to be a way for you to justify dismissing and evading my points. It would be appreciated if you’d either clarify what you actually mean, or to actually address my points without pretending that they’re somehow missing the mark.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin Hate to say, but if God were to be as you say “also responsible for our behaviours and actions”, then we would not be having this conversation because he would make sure our behavior and actions are to believe in him and do the right thing which is what he wants not the opposite which is what is happening, as He predicted.

Your idea of God is nonsensical, but it obviously conforms to your own reason for not believing in Him, or maybe it is just pure ignorance.

Kropotkin's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl

1) God designed human brains.
2) Human brains have flaws which make us prone to delusion, irrationality, and mental illness, resulting in sometimes harmful and dysfunctional behaviours.
3) Therefore god is responsible for our harmful and dysfunctional behaviours.

Which premise do you have an issue with? Maybe you don’t like the conclusion? Perhaps you think designing or creating something doesn’t mean one is responsible for how it functions? (remind me not to hire a Christian workman!)

Perhaps you think god didn’t design the human brain? (I would agree, it evolved.)

Maybe you have some new theory on how and why people behave the way they do, and you’ll overturn decades worth of accumulated knowledge in the fields of psychology, psychiatry and other related brain sciences?

I eagerly await your response.

P.S. What idea of god? I presented no idea of any god. What I did was state what @Hypocrisy_Central‘s idea of god reminded me of. The sort of obnoxioiusly paternalistic and venal authoritarian he described reminded me of the North Korean leader. Not my fault you guys can’t even depict the god you believe in in more flattering terms. It also has nothing to do with why I don’t believe in your or any other gods.

Symbeline's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central About the ants. Yeah I understand that. The thing is with my point though, in this scenario, if I want to help out the ants, I’m limited to what I can do. I would have to manually build the trench so their home wouldn’t get flooded. By so doing, I might be harming other critters that live in the water, or plants or other things. This is is because I am limited to what I may do.
As I understand though, God has no limits. He can snap fingers and make things right, without harming others who don’t deserve it. He doesn’t need to make sacrifices.

Jesus never had to die on the cross, am I right? I mean technically, the man is said to have turned water into beer and cured blind people; surely had he wanted, nobody could have done anything to him. And anyways, he didn’t really die, he’s not a human. He was resurrected. So he died for mankind to be forgiven, and was later resurrected. But if little kids get killed in a shooting, and if that’s part of God’s plan, they don’t get resurrected. That’s the whole thing I don’t get; Jesus could have just got down from that cross, pointed at the Romans and say, you know what, screw you guys.

I understand about faith and that you have to have it, and I understand the whole symbolism of the crucifixion and what it means for humans. I also understand that dead kids go to Heaven, so there is no need to resurrect them am I right? But why is God doing it like that, when He doesn’t have to? If I had ants I cared for, or created them, I’d want them to be well and enjoy the life I gave them. If I create something inferior, like we are to God, and I knew they were pretty much hopeless, why would I toy with my ants this way? Seems kinda mean if you ask me. I’m not telling God how to do His job lol. But coupling emotion and logic together, that’s what I’m coming up with. But yeah I know, our minds can’t begin to comprehend something like a god. Still, I’m using what He gave me, what else might I do?

The gist of it is, God has supreme power, but might utilize methods which don’t reflect this. Why? Faith, the big plan, I get all that, but I can’t help to wonder anyways. Now if you’re right, and God lets us decide for ourselves, well okay, there’s nothing I can say bout this. It makes sense. I don’t believe in God as I’m sure you know, but I’m trying my best to look at this with another sight besides that of an atheist. it’s actually pretty interesting, if not slightly freaky But a lot of it makes no sense to me, although god or no god, I’ve always been of the mind that the limits of man’s logic must certainly not be able to cover all that exists or happens. Hell I’m sure there’s a bunch of scientific shit we’ll never be able to explain, never mind an actual deity lol.

But yeah, this is what stickles me; God loves us all, yet there’s all this suffering happening all the time. To answer some of what may have been asked, people go, why don’t non believers want anything to do with God, besides Him fixing shit? Well if He won’t deliver and allows children to die for no good reason, as if there ever was a good reason for a kid to die to begin with…then why would I want Him in my life? Why did He give me a life just so he could mess around with my ass?
On the other hand, I have a damn hard time imagining what mankind would be like without our bloodthirsty nature…would we even be the same if everything was always breezy peachy? What do you think?

Don’t worry, I didn’t miss your point at all about free will. But all the questions happen, and I seem to question the validity of God’s claims, based on how stuff works, that is, if it works in all these weird ways.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Symbeline I’m sorry I just had to answer or maybe I’m curious to know why you think that God should make the world peaceful without consequence? After all he did give that to us, if you want to “blame” then look to man.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17

17 To Adam he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return. Genesis 3:17–19

God does not make our choices for us. God gives us rules which he wants us to follow and if we don’t we pay the consequences. God IS our true father. And like any parent he wants us to follow the rules, otherwise there are consequences and if you completely shun Him you get no chance in heaven.

And if by my account I happen to be right and heaven does indeed exist I would prefer to go there by following some simple rules, and if in the end you happen to be right which I’m sorry but I dont believe you are then I’ve still made myself a better person for following His rules, what’s the harm?

You can explain things to me like scientists do as much as you want, but it is only a claim and doesn’t take away from the fact that the accounts in the Bible are right! Things happening now have been explained. Even things like Biblical plagues really happened!

After rereading my answer I have elected to have this also be your answer @Kropotkin

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin BTW, I want to also add, that the mental problems and harmful behaviors and such you described we know are because we have knowledge which in the beginning God clearly told man NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge. That scripture in itself describes the “evolution” from then to now, at least that’s what I believe.

Kropotkin's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl You’ve really not addressed my argument. I’ll try to break it down in the context of the absurd Adam and Eve myth that you seem to take literally.

1) God created Adam and Eve’s brains.
2) Adam and Eve were endowed with brains that would lead them to an irrational action with harmful consequences.
3) Therefore, god is responsible for Adam and Eve’s irrational action with harmful consequences.

Their bad decision to eat from the tree of knowledge was before they had knowldge, so you can’t use that particular theological cop out.

And can’t you see how fundamentally bad your view is for any sort of meaningful understanding of human behaviour? There are people with actual mental issues, tens of millions in the US alone. What would your Christian perspective do for them? Blame it on sin? Prescribe prayer? What terrible nonsense!

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin There are people with actual mental issues, tens of millions in the US alone.

I know. I am one of them. You are coming at me with that the wrong way.

Eating from the tree of knowledge was done because of temptation from evil and sin. We are all sinners God already knows this because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I’m not sure what you are trying to get at. God made us. He made our brains, he knows our fates already he knows you better than you know yourself, he made you and he chooses your path, but it is up to you to follow His rules, and if you don’t there are consequences. Would it be better if he stepped out of the heavens and made an appearance? Because even if he did others would not believe. Did you know there is an account where the apparition of virgin Mary was seen spreading God’s message the story was told to 3 children and is known as the apparitions at Fatima.

Everything that happens in your life He knows about, you are a sinner, that is how your brain was made by God, but don’t be fooled because He has given you the tools to escape the fiery pits of hell and since He has given you free will wherever you end up is your choice and yours alone. People with severe illness as far as I know are treated like children in His eyes, but I’m not Him so I can’t say for sure.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Kropotkin _ 1) God designed human brains._
2) Human brains have flaws which make us prone to delusion, irrationality, and mental illness, resulting in sometimes harmful and dysfunctional behaviours.
3) Therefore god is responsible for our harmful and dysfunctional behaviours.

Because God was the engineer and designer of the human brain, any malfunctions that was a byproduct of the iniquity Adam let loose on the world is God responsibility? When a watchmaker creates a watch does he sit there and swing the pendulum or move each of the gears physically? Do he wind it up, raise the weights, etc and allow the mechanism to do what it does? If the chain on the weight wears out, or the spring gets loose it is the watchmakers fault because he as the designer did not or could not prevent it from wearing out? When a mother takes in unnatural chemicals that affect her developing baby it is God’s fault she did that? If the mother was exposed to chemicals in the environment that does the same it is Gods fault man made that pollution or contaminated the area? Man is more responsible for causing defects by his way of living than God doing something to man.

Perhaps you think designing or creating something doesn’t mean one is responsible for how it functions? No, it isn’t. If I design a firearm or weapon for a specific purpose, say guarding an armory but SOMEONE ELSE takes it and uses it to rob a bank or blast fish in a lake as a form of fishing, I would have no responsibility on how someone missed used it. God just put the science of DNA, mitosis, etc in motion, he doesn’t direct its every path anymore than directing crab grass to attack your lawn or wild boars to attack your flower bed.

Maybe you have some new theory on how and why people behave the way they do, and you’ll overturn decades worth of accumulated knowledge in the fields of psychology, psychiatry and other related brain sciences? With all those years of science have they come up with a cure to many disorders other than masking them with Pharmaceuticals? They can’t cure Autism, or Parkinson, I have not seen a successful track record of curing those with dementia, or multiple personalities.

The sort of obnoxioiusly paternalistic and venal authoritarian he described reminded me of the North Korean leader. Not my fault you guys can’t even depict the god you believe in in more flattering terms. Who is man then? A spoiled impudent child who can’t even give respect to his/her parents to call them mom and pop, who see them as just the ego tripping fools who happen to come here first and buy the house THEY (the child) lives in, that there only functions is to keep the fridge stocked, the power on so they can charge their iPad, the water running, and money to buy creature comforts but they have to follow no rule these ego tripping fools that are called parents say? Man is suppose to take and be kept save and owe nothing to the Creator who makes it possible?

It is this last point I really want to drive home for you—I do not believe that your god is in any way a real thing with any basis in reality. He is not MY God, I did not create Him, He created me. I do not won Him, He owns me. He is the God I serve, He does not serve me. He is not my God in I own Him.

I simply think it is not real. Make sure to speak clearly when you explain that when you meet Him.

@Symbeline Jesus never had to die on the cross, am I right? I mean technically, the man is said to have turned water into beer and cured blind people; surely had he wanted, nobody could have done anything to him. He did have to if man was to ever have a chance at reconciling the relationship with God Adam broke. Sin and iniquity was brought into the world by one man, Adam, and sin and iniquity had to be removed by one man, Jesus Christ. If the Lord had not took the curse of sin and the power from death to the cross with Him man would have been lost. There would have not been enough spotless bull, rams, sheep, etc, atone for the sins of everyone. The Tabernacle would have had a parade of beast going into the Holy of Holies 24/7 like a Nazi crematorium and still not been good enough. Christ lived a perfect life, following EVERY LETTER of the law of Moses, thus being the only one on Earth worthy to be a blood sacrifice for sin once and for all. Sure, when the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Romans beat and mocked Him he could have called 10,000 legions of angels and they could have laid waist this planet so there was nothing larger than a phonebook left on the land, but He wants to have a relationship with us and He had to wash us from our iniquity and the ONLY way to do that was God making His only Son sin in our place, basically paying OUR wage of sin for us.

And anyways, he didn’t really die, he’s not a human. He was resurrected. So he died for mankind to be forgiven, and was later resurrected. He was God’s Spirit in human form, and He did die in the flesh. We are all immortal beings, this tent of flesh is not immortal, it will die and decay back to the earth, but the soul will live on; where it will live forever is up to us in the since which master we will choose to serve and be with.

I also understand that dead kids go to Heaven, so there is no need to resurrect them am I right? But why is God doing it like that, when He doesn’t have to? What other way would He do it?

If I had ants I cared for, or created them, I’d want them to be well and enjoy the life I gave them. If I create something inferior, like we are to God, and I knew they were pretty much hopeless, why would I toy with my ants this way? Seems kinda mean if you ask me. Elucidate please, how do you perceive God is toying with us puny humans? I have a hard time answering that because I can’t see where you determine God is mean or cruel at.

The gist of it is, God has supreme power, but might utilize methods which don’t reflect this. Why? One day you will have children (if you don’t already), you will want the best for them. You will also have rules for them; don’t light bon fires in your bedroom, don’t hang ropes off the chimney and try to climb from the roof, don’t drink anything you find under the sink, stay away from the creek, it is deeper and faster running when the snow is melting or the rain has fallen all night, etc. YOU, cannot control everything your children will do, if you could they would not be freewill being but automatons, or robots and there would be no need for you to do anything but program them to do as you wanted much like you don’t have to tell the coffeemaker how to make your coffee because it has no choice. Is there things God could use to MAKE US do what he wanted, sure HE IS GOD, but then where would the freewill be? He wants us to serve him because we WANT TO, not because WE HAVE NO CHOICE. Sometimes freewill choices lead to gnarly outcomes. If you decide to go down that steep hill on your skateboard no pads or helmet when your dad said no, you risk crashing, breaking bones, or at worse getting some bad road rash.

I don’t believe in God as I’m sure you know, but I’m trying my best to look at this with another sight besides that of an atheist. it’s actually pretty interesting, if not slightly freaky I know, saddens me, but I know it. I find it strange explaining God to someone who won’t acknowledge His existence. You do it respectfully, which is why you are on of my favs, plus God commands me to answer you as truthfully as I know. For as it says in Ezekiel 3:18,19 “When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warm the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 “Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul” Let not get wickedness confused with evilness, wickedness is anything not of God, so even good people can be wicked. By letting you know, if you never come to the Cross your soul lost will not be on me because I told you the bridge is out; I did not just let you drive off it without a warning.

Well if He won’t deliver and allows children to die for no good reason, as if there ever was a good reason for a kid to die to begin with…then why would I want Him in my life? Why did He give me a life just so he could mess around with my ass? Are you surer it is God? Satan got kicked out of Heaven; he is never getting back in, and in the end of it all will be locked away in hell, where he and his minions will never get free. He will love nothing more than to see you and I never make it. In Heaven the saints will judge angels, we will be adopted sons and daughter of the Mighty I Am, the Lord of Lords, he HATES YOU FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY, and want to make sure YOU NEVER TAKE IT. We are made in the image of God so he hates us because he hates EVERYTHING about God. Who made Lanza want to murder, God? Hardly, god is about love, patience, benevolence, kindness, etc, I can’t see murder coming from that. But just as a child can fall from a three story window or be trapped under a frozen pond for 8 minutes and live, sometimes criminal acts or accidents takes their life early. Bad happens as well as good, you can’t have miracles all of the time or else they would have no power.

Kropotkin's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl The Adam and Eve story isn’t true. There was no apparition at Fatima, the woman involved was likely hallucinating and delusional. What I’m trying to get at is to show the inconsistency in the Christian narrative—that god is necessarily responsible for the actions of his creation, and the hand wringing attempts to shift the responsibility to humans, fails. It’s a simple problem to reconcile—the Christian god doesn’t exist.

@Hypocrisy_Central “When a watchmaker creates a watch does he sit there and…”
Your analogy is completely off the mark. It would be more like a watchmaker making a watch that runs too slow or fast, and then blaming the watch for not running right. The stuff about the mother and pollution is based on the same faulty analogy.

“If I design a firearm or weapon for a specific purpose…”
Even this little yarn you’ve spun is deceptive. There’s no such thing as a firearm with one specific purpose. You’re conflating intent with purpose. You may intend the firearm to be used only for guard duty, but that is not its only possible use. In any case, the firearm works correctly in all the scenarios you mentioned. If the firearm was faulty, perhaps with a small chance of blowing up in the user’s face, then that would be the more apt analogy, and that would be the responsibility of its designer and creator.

“With all those years of science have they come up with a cure to many disorders…”
Yes, there’s been more progress in just a few decades than in 2,000 years of Christian exorcisms and blaming mental illness on sin or demons. Some things aren’t treated that effectively yet, but science if working on it.

”...Man is suppose to take and be kept save and owe nothing to the Creator who makes it possible?”
As I’ve already argued, seemingly not compelling enough, the Earth we are on is not analogous to some cosy home that’s kept stocked by a kind and generous father figure, but is actually a hostile and brutal world that has killed millions without discrimination. It is humans who have adapted to an unforgiving Earth, and used our creativity and ingenuity to make much of it more habitable than it would otherwise be.

“He is not MY God, I did not create Him…”
There are literally thousands of gods invented by humans and imagined to be real through the ages. You must be very fortunate to live in a time and place where the popularly believed in god just happens to be real, and not imagined and invented.

“Make sure to speak clearly when you explain that when you meet Him”
Blah blah.

dabbler's avatar

“like a watchmaker making a watch that runs too slow or fast”
But God has different measure for each of us.
It’s entirely possible that God make the loonies too, just the way they are, to teach us something. I do not know or understand what that might be.
As far as I’ve heard, to be there in heaven with God you have to love ‘em all, one way or another, somehow.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin Ok well then we are done here. You have obviously made up your mind. And I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU!

The Adam and Eve story isn’t true. There was no apparition at Fatima, the woman involved was likely hallucinating and delusional. What I’m trying to get at is to show the inconsistency in the Christian narrative—that god is necessarily responsible for the actions of his creation, and the hand wringing attempts to shift the responsibility to humans, fails. It’s a simple problem to reconcile—the Christian god doesn’t exist.

This is your opinion but I know differently. God was by my side when my husband and my father were sick and passed away. I’m not getting into the details.

BTW—I’d really like to know what the big deal is about for nonbelievers & believing in God, he wants peace for us, and to live in heaven free from sin with our loved ones for all eternity. And if he does exist like I believe the nonbelievers will be stuck in hell suffering worse than the suffering here on earth, if you think watching children dying feels bad now, the pain and suffering of hell is a lot worse and pretending it doesn’t exist or fluffing it off isn’t going to stop that if it is true, there are no takesies backsies here, you will not be able to say in the minute of death and stand before God and say then that you believe, it doesn’t work that way. Be a rebel, don’t believe in God then, IT IS YOUR CHOICE!

bolwerk's avatar

If God could have prevented the death of your husband and father, but didn’t, then God was decidedly not on your side.

DominicX's avatar

Oh, @nofurbelowsbatgirl, you like so many other Christians are just falling back on Pascal’s wager. And I don’t blame you—Pascal’s wager represents very common thinking among Christians; and I firmly believe that if there were no threat of hell in Christianity, Christianity would have died out thousands of years ago and would not be nearly as popular as it is today, but that looming threat over people’s heads keeps people believing. One of the main problems with Pascal’s wager of course is that it doesn’t specify which God. What if there’s a god in a Native American religion that says if you don’t believe, not only will you be tortured eternally, but so will your descendants? Sounds like you have “more to lose” by not believing in that religion, so essentially what Pascal’s wager says is: “believe in the religion that has the harshest punishment for not believing” and then of course we meet the second main problem with the infamous wager: belief cannot be motivated only by fear. And yet the fear of hell almost guarantees that it will motivate belief, for who would choose to burn for all eternity?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@bolwerk That’s a low blow, what are you Satans helper?

I received a gift from God because I found my true love, and I had an amazing father. But I can also accept that everyone dies st some point and it is not the way they died or when they died or the fact that they died that defines who they were and what they meant to me. They were a gift in my life and if their lives were preserved at that moment, they surely would of died in another, we are not immortal.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@DominicX Actually I’m not afraid of hell, but if I have to choose and it is my choice I choose to not go there. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. BTW, you guys keep calling me a Christian, and I am not. I just believe in God because of experiences I’ve had, and those actually have nothing to do with a fear of going to hell.

But wow I certainly can see the idea that God said that Christians will be outcasts in society!

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: no, I’m not the manservant to an imaginary satyric demon. But, if it’s out of bounds to scrutinize your claims, then you perhaps should reconsider making them publicly.

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: BTW, I’m trying to figure out…is your name a reference to a hairless pubic area on Alicia Silverstone? Serious question. I really can’t shake the sense that’s what you’re referring to with your handle. :|

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@bolwerk Well that’s fine, but there’s also a certain thing called compassion. I don’t believe that what you said was said out of compassion.

And no, my handle was computer generated, I thought it was funny and it has a humorous reference to me and my dead husband.

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: I don’t consider is compassionate or malicious. It was a serious statement about the absurdity of the claim.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@bolwerk well its not absurd to me, both my husband and father will be waiting in heaven for me as we all shared the same beliefs.

DominicX's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Good for you. But when most Christians (whether or not you are) are confronted with non-believers, they often resort to “yeah, well, you better believe or you’ll go to hell!” and that’s really nothing but appealing to fear and Pascal’s wager.

And yeah, Christians are outcasts alright. That’s why ⅓ of the world is Christian and the religion has oppressed hundreds of thousands over the centuries and 85% of Americans are Christians and all American presidents have been Christians and according to polls, atheists are the most distrusted group. That’s all because Christians are outcasts.

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: it’s absurd independently of you, not to you or against you.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@DominicX I did quote a scripture in one of my above comments..

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 24:9–10

I did not mean American Christians. I do not live in America. I think I chose the wrong word [outcast] sorry about that.

Here are some news reports to back up what I mean.

Christian Persecution: Syrian minority fear end of fighting more than war itself

Muslim Persecution of Christians: October 2012 – AINA

Vatican pushes for greater protection of Christians from persecution – Rome Reports

Christian Persecution: Number of Chinese Christians Detained Soars 131.8… – Patheos

I can keep going, but I won’t.

@bolwerk regardless of the wording, I do not think its absurd. But you have your own opinion. BTW you have confused me because I have no idea what absurd “claim” you are talking about? Is that the “Satan’s helper” claim? If that’s the case it wasn’t really a “claim” like I think you think it was, it was more of a tongue in cheek question.

bolwerk's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl: no, it’s the claim that God was on your side. Unless your god is rather toothless to do anything about tragedies that personally affect (and effect) you, it’s simply illogical to say such a thing was on your side.

DominicX's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Oh, that I agree with. Christians are persecuted in plenty of places, especially in Muslim countries.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@bolwerk Actually I felt him on my side. In the time of a sick person passing away, the actual death itself is not the only tragedy. By your account if God was on my side then I should be living life tragedy free and that claim is absurd. God has helped me through all my tragedies and tough times and to me that means he IS on my side.

ETpro's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Mankind in his time on earth has invented over 3,000 supreme beings. Most of those raised in a culture believing in any one of those 3,000 creator gods grew up believing profoundly in their particular god’s preeminence. Just as you did, they felt that god’s presence. But their god wasn’t your god.

Now since almost all of the 3,000 were purported to be the one true god, with the other 2,999 being false gods, all these people can’t possibly be right that they “felt” their god by them, supporting them. In fact, almost all 3,000 religious beliefs have to be wrong. Yet the “felt” their deity’s presence just as certainly as you felt yours. That doesn’t mean you wrongly perceived that presence. It just means the odds are strongly in the favor of that perception being wrong. It means that humans reared in a particular religious dogma experience it in visceral terms even if it is utter baloney they are believing in.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@ETpro

Ok. I understand what you are saying. I am going to do something I almost never do and haven’t done since the evening I sat in my car with a full bottle of pills and the Bible in my hands. At that time I wanted a prayer to say almost like my own last rights if you will. So I opened the Bible (this was in mid June you do not have to believe me but every account I’m telling you is true) I cranked open the windows and lit my smoke, the Bible on my lap. A gust of wind came in and blew the pages almost like they were being turned by fingers and stopped. I looked down just to clarify since I’m not really a Christian and I don’t go to church I have a Bible that explains the word and that is easy for me, it is called “The Life Principles Bible”. Anyway when I looked down on the page my eyes zoomed to this:

So you, by the help of your God, return; observe mercy and justice, and wait on your God continually.
Hosea 12:6

That scripture to me did not need translating.

So now I’m going to ask God to give me an answer to your question. I have been guided ever since that day by God thru His scripture. This may sound like a flukey thing but I promise I am very sincere.

Ok so I’ve opened the book to Psalm 14:

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good.

I guess its not really an answer so to speak, it just proves to me that He is all knowing. And so I’ll just try to leave this question here.

Kropotkin's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I guess I’m a corrupt fool who has done abominable things and does no good.

Thank god for The Enlightenment, else these folks would still be stoning, and burning us to death.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin “Thank God”

Your pessimism will get you know where. You are most likely not a corrupt fool who does bad things, its just the way you go about doing the good things and I see you can use the Lords name but then you speak of Him as if He doesn’t exist.

We are all sinners that is never going to change, even I have never been sin free. Choosing to acknowledge that God does not exist is the ultimate betrayal to God, even if you just decide to thank Him or wonder why He doesn’t fix the things you think are necessary to make your own life pain free, He doesn’t want your blessing He wants your love and acknowledgment.

Jesus lived a short time on earth and His life was anything but pain free, like why choose to die by thorns and being nailed to a cross if He had such influence on traumatic things like you want Him to have. Why would He choose to go out suffering, and not by a less traumatic way? Like you, if I could choose not to suffer, I would also choose that, and since we are made in Gods image, don’t you think He would feel the same? Don’t you think if He could control evil and suffering He would and He would of died by old age or not even of died at all the way he did.

So yes, Thank God,
Oh the irony, and a perfect ending to the perfect question.

Kropotkin's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I have no lord, no master. I speak of the god concept, since the entity is almost certainly an invention of man, and a persistent, culturally reinforced delusion—just like the countless other gods that have been believed in. The Christian narrative itself is riddled with inconsistencies; the simple one I presented earlier, you could not address properly or reconcile in any way. You’ve fallen back on a mixture of emotionalism, thinly veiled threats, and appeals to personal revelation—all of which are invalid.

Jesus lived a short time on Earth? There’s no evidence that Jesus existed at all. There are exactly zero primary historical sources that support Jesus’s existence.

We’re not made in the image of any god—the human population evolved over billions of years, just the same as all other life on Earth.

I was actually thanking Zeus. I’m sorry I didn’t specify which god I was thanking.

dabbler's avatar

fetching popcorn for the coming of the… random ‘holy book’ page flip quote war

And The Lord Said:

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for to them is given the knowledge of God… Blessed is human birth; even the dwellers in heaven desire this birth; for true knowledge and pure love may be attained only by a human being.”

“Fixing their minds on Him, at one with Him, abiding in Him, realizing Him alone as the supreme goal, they reach a state from which there is no return, their sins having been destroyed by this knowledge…”

“But the man goes to ruin, who is ignorant and without faith and always doubting. Not this world, nor happiness is for the doubting soul.”

(psst, That’s Lord Krishna, in the Bhagavad Ghita)

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Kropotkin You can have your own opinions. If I have treated you in anyway that was disrespectful, I’m sorry, that was not my intention. My intention is to treat people with respect and that includes you regardless of your belief. But I’m also not going to continue on debating with you when there is no point. Nothing I would say would matter so why bother. I do believe this has gone off topic because now you are looking to me to give you answers for something that I do not have, but at the same time just because I do not have answers doesn’t mean it never happened.

It’s simple, if you don’t believe in God then that should be your answer to the question, there is no need for shenanigans. I am also to blame tho, I also went off topic.

Debating whether or not there is a God has no relevance to this question. I don’t really want to debate it either because we might as well be beating a dead horse because I believe differently from you.

So I have to respectfully bow out of this conversation now, thanks.

bolwerk's avatar

@Kropotkin is a raging liberal God hater. Christ warned us about those.

ETpro's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I don’t for one minute doubt your account. I’ve had some very low moments of my own. Perhaps the worst was the day I learned my first child had died three days after delivering my first granddaughter. Interestingly, her girl is the spitting image of her. She’s now got three kids of her own and is in grad school. I’ve learned life goes on.

I’ve never had a bottle of pills at the ready, but I know the temptation to seek relief from suffering through them. What you tell yourself is true becomes true for you. If your beliefs get you through your night, stick with them. I’m just not personally in the market. Pascal’s wager has been well debunked.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Kropotkin Even this little yarn you’ve spun is deceptive. There’s no such thing as a firearm with one specific purpose. You’re conflating intent with purpose. You may intend the firearm to be used only for guard duty, but that is not its only possible use. And yours has much more validity? Because man has the means of improvisation God doesn’t exist? If I create something to do a specific purpose but someone else finds another way to use it outside my original design, I would not have had any control of that.

If the firearm was faulty, perhaps with a small chance of blowing up in the user’s face, then that would be the more apt analogy, and that would be the responsibility of its designer and creator. The designer is responsible for any incidentals? What about parents? Under that premise most parents will have to do time because their kids messed up, no doubt do to the parents faulty DNA. Don’t hold the child to making their own choice to break the law, they could not help it, it was the flawed DNA of their parents that designed them in the womb.

Jesus lived a short time on Earth? There’s no evidence that Jesus existed at all. There are exactly zero primary historical sources that support Jesus’s existence. Duh, why would someone who wants to deny any existence of God, so they can have no master, ruler, etc, want to produce proof of one? Would that not make them wrong and give them a master they for sure know they are disobeying? That would make about as much sense if I wanted to drive my car on a stretch of road as fast I as wanted and have someone tell me there is a speed limit to the road; if I produce proof there is a speed limit to the road, I will then be guilty of speeding if I drive faster than that. The smart thing for me would be to hide that proof or better yet not look for it and hope on one else will find it either.

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