At what point will men stand up and fight the sexism and descrimination against males in our culture?

Is this a joke?

The bigger problem with discrimination in family court and custody cases is how it affects the children. I’m pretty active in fighting for father’s rights, I follow the movement closely, share information, sign petitions, etc… but the root of it is in making things balanced, fair, and best for the kids. It’s unfortunate that men are discriminated against in family court, I do believe it is a real and serious issue, but it’s the kids who are suffering for it.

There is plenty of gender discrimination in both directions. A male-bodied person with what society determines as “feminine” attributes is less likely to be hired and will make less money than “manly men”. Boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls and if a boy wants tap-dance lessons instead of Karate too goddamn bad, son, because in this house we act like men.

I don’t see a whole lot of “women and children first” happening these days. First responders save who can be saved. So I think you miss the point, there.

I hate this commercial – everything about it is disgusting. I can’t stand shows like “The King of Queens” – fat slovenly mess of a man married to a smart-ass hot chick, and oh what that poor woman has to put up with. I can appreciate a show like The Honeymooners for the era in which it was made, but the myriad recent re-creations are tiring.

Divorce and family law are a serious concern. I can’t help but think how my life might have been different if I had been allowed to choose which parent “got” me after the split. Even though my abusive mom did a completely illegal thing – took the kids and ran out of state – she still got custody, no questions asked. These things need to be decided much more fairly, preferably with some kind of input from the kids. They should at least be interviewed by a Guardian Ad Litem who will speak for them in court with some knowledge of how they feel and whether they’re being brainwashed by some angry parent.

All in all, we would do well to remember that people are people, and no one gender – as if there are only two options – is inherently more so than the other.

I asked a question on here a while back, asking would the fluther men have obeyed the rules aboard the ill fated titanic & allowed women & children to be saved first.
The answers were fairly across the board, as can be expected, I was firmly of the view that i’d save my woman & kids but fuck the rest of ya…operation save arse is where i’m at.
Furthermore, if i’m swimming on a packed beach & a great white suddenly attacks, i’m going to be feeding the fucker babies/toddlers so as to make good my escape, I like living see.

@ucme You’re a goofball. ^_^

@poisonedantidote: “So where are the complaints? where is the movement for male rights?”

It’s called “feminism”. No, I’m not kidding. Making gender equality a priority, well…produces gender equality.

Also, can you answer @johnpowell‘s question?

@Seek_Kolinahr Yeah, but i’ll live for-fuckin-ever…ish!! :¬)

I agree with you, I feel men have had their balls cut off and are lost.

I’ve seen men subjected to plenty of discrimination.

Let’s say that two guys apply for the same job. They’re both good candidates—educated, experienced, and intelligent. One guy’s tall, slender, handsome, and has a full head of hair. The other guy’s short, pudgy, and balding. The first guy satisfies all of western culture’s ideals, and he’s going to get the job. If his work performance is decent, he’ll get advanced and promoted over his less-appealing colleagues.

When this sort of thing happens to women—the Perfect 10 is preferred to a dumpy, unattractive lady—people get angry about discrimination. Yet, men are subjected to the same sorts of attitudes, and nobody even blinks.

I can’t tell when people are joking or being serious.

Well I’m sure you can find a men’s rights activist group to join…

I’m having trouble figuring out if this is a joke as well. Dude, aren’t you an anarchist? Or did I just make that up?

@Shippy: So, how exactly does a man™ behave who has had his balls cut off? A woman? Or perhaps a fag? You seem to be proliferating the same old stereotypes about masculinity and femininity (and who gets to act which way) that oppress all of us.

@Seek_Kolinahr: GA X 20.

@bookish1 It was a manner of speech. You know the difference right? I know the difference between gender identity, gender roles, society and its prescriptions, gender expectation, polarization of gender characteristics. I know about gender equity, I know about gender inequity and abuse. Kindly do not take what I say so literally. However, I am personally happy with my own gender identity. I like being a woman. I also like what that implies. If you feel oppressed that is your problem not mine. I am entitled to my opinions as I think you are yours?

@Shippy: Thank you for explaining. I apologize for taking what you said literally. Figuratively, then, what did you mean?

@bookish1 Long topic. Try South Africa for example. Basically if you are a white male, you have less chance of finding a job here than flying to the moon. Our gender and equity laws rule everything. White men here have been sidelined and emancipated. Every one is discriminated against at some point, some of the time or all of the time, somewhere. There are more countries than the USA on the globe. I have had gender equality thrown at me in buckets. In the end who is equal? Thank heavens for dissident Feminists like Camille Paglia. But even her arguments wear thin, in these times.

I have noticed male’s are discriminated against in some aspects, especially child custody, visitation, etc… I would think that men would push back eventually.

Why do some feel this is a joke? Men don’t have feelings too? Futher, how you confuse me sometimes. :/

Yeah, the nasty trekkie lady called me a horrid name & now i’m really really upsetted…sniffle :¬(

* sets phaser to “stun” *

I see the serious aspects of such as @ucme ‘s post. Yes, he said it with humour, but it’s a legitimate position. Why is the life of someone else’s kid inherently more valuable than his? Especially to him, the person being asked to give up his life.

The problem is that men are too stupid and unwilling to work together to form a movement to fight against discrimination against males. It’s much worse than you think. Already, women form a significant majority of student in institutions of higher education. Even more so in graduate schools.

Women are still subject to the glass ceiling, but that will be cracked and destroyed before long, because there won’t be any men with enough education to take leadership positions. Women now make up 20% of the Senate in the US. In fifty years, it will be a majority. They will similarly make up a majority of business leaders.

The thing is, men won’t have a chance. Like I said, we’re too stupid. We believe we have a natural superiority, and we don’t even want to go to school (on average). Women have been taking care of us, and that will get worse. We’ll have a built-in excuse because we can’t get jobs, and women will be their codependent selves and allow us to get away with it.

You heard it here, first.

@tom_g is right. Feminism is masculism. We need feminism more than women do. We need to stop being success objects and workaholics. We need to learn to balance our lives; to feel our feelings and learn how to talk about them. We need to learn to be massaged and do yoga and not feel so fucking competitive all the time. We need to learn to listen and to care about the things other people feel. We are hurt when we act like we don’t care; when we are brought up not to care.

@Shippy Concerning men from South Africa, my own experiences have been very different. I spent about 16 years working for public accounting firms. The firms were PACKED with South Africans, all of whom were male. CPA’s are in short supply and high demand in this country, so qualified people can easily enter and work in the U.S. with H1B visas.

Interestingly, though, all of my South African colleagues were either English or Jewish. None of them were Afrikaaners. Sadly, none of them were black. Even more sadly, I’ve never met a black South African in the U.S. I’ve been told that poverty is too abject and widespread among the native populations to make emigration an option.

@PaulSadieMartin What year was that? By law that is illegal. Ratios on ethnic groups, and gender have to be in place, or large companies stand to suffer massive fines.

@Shippy: I am quite aware that there are more countries than the U.S. on the globe. I learned first hand about patriarchy and oppression at home from my Indian father, and I am pretty sure I would be either completely miserable or dead right now if I had grown up in India. So you think the gender equality laws have ‘castrated’ men in your country? Do you think these laws have served their purpose and can be repealed now? I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I am sincerely interested in what you think. I think about affirmative action alot.

@wundayatta: An interesting sign of the times is that in my teacher training, we were instructed to pay special attention to the boys, because they might not feel very confident speaking up in a classroom full of mostly girls. As for myself, I definitely feel less confident in work environments as a feminine guy now than I did as a masculine ‘girl’.

@PaulSadieMartin: That might have something to do with educated white men having to leave the country to find good jobs. This is why you find so many upper caste Indians abroad. There is positive discrimination/affirmative action in the country.

@bookish1 Yes they have, they have ensured that certain groups obtain preferential employment, and have been placed in key positions. I see this as good. However, why do people always assume its always women? That is my point. Plus in my small mind, and in my tiny world, women mostly rule the roost at home too. Because a lot, not all, are breadwinners here now. I also got off topic the original OP raised some great points. Like murder, too many to mention, where it is a couple. Some of the women actually got off, for selling out the man. I think people in general underestimate the power of a female.

Also, just by the way, you referred to my response with words like ‘fag’. I hate that word. In fact I have no time for people who use it, even in jest, or in sarcasm. Or even to make a point. So using that word to me, did seem as though you were attacking me, and wanted a fight, as you pointed out in your question the converse.

@Shippy: I am sorry that I did that. That was my poor judgment. I was referring to the sexist logic that hurts us all… that men need to act like ‘real’ men, i.e., men with ‘balls’, which means not acting the way women or gay men are expected to act. I am sorry I jumped to a conclusion based on what you said.

@Shippy H-1B status is peculiar. The H-1B visa allows a foreign national to work in the U.S. temporarily (up to 6 years). The visa’s available only for workers in specialty occupations that (1) require technical expertise and training and (2) lack qualified U.S. workers. There’s a cap on the number of H-1B visas that can be issued, but it’s quite high—85,000 per year. Because so many people can enter the U.S. each year, and because they can stay here for 6 years, I meet LOTS of professional employees with H-1B status.

Personally, I think it’s a bad deal for workers. Individuals can’t apply for H-1B visas; employers petition for worker entry, and the visa doesn’t transfer to other jobs. Thus, anyone who enters the U.S. with H-1B status is at the mercy of his/her employer. If the person is mistreated, he/she can’t simply quit and find another job; the individual becomes ineligible to stay and work in the U.S. Even though the eligible workers are highly educated and skilled, I’ve seen plenty of exploitation. Isn’t that so often the outcome of power without consequences?

Plenty of people disagree with me. The H-1B visa certainly is a legal means for entering and working in the U.S., and the 6 years is often plenty of time to get resident alien (“green card”) status.

@PaulSadieMartin Yes, it is confusing for me all that, but I will say due to our BEE and equity a lot have left to work in the USA, and other countries. I have lost most of my good friends this way. But ah! I can’t discuss S.Africa it is a cruel and beautiful country. Of which I am leaving soon. But it does get into your blood. I do feel African. I will always dance to the rhythm of their drums! I will say that for a 3rd World country I reckon we have one of the most advanced constitutions, and I am proud of how far we have progressed. Sadly though discrimination was reversed. But I am clear and understand why.

@jonsblond: “Why do some feel this is a joke? Men don’t have feelings too? Futher, how you confuse me sometimes. :/”

Sure, we have feelings. Not sure what that has to do with this though. I guess this question was serious. So, maybe I’ll respond a bit…

@poisonedantidote: “People are always very fast to point out how women earn less than men, and highlight how they have it so hard, but I am yet to see men stand up for their rights, and fight the gender discrimination that is aimed at them as men.”

I can’t see how supporting gender equality isn’t fighting for men. When you fight against racial discrimination in the U.S., you are not somehow supporting racial discrimination of caucasians. You are fighting for equality and civil rights for everyone.

@poisonedantidote: “If you are a man, in many instances you will be treated as expendable, for example, men are expected to go down with the ship, while women and children climb in to the life boats. This policy would have made sense in the past, for procreation reasons, but with the overpopulation problem in the world, there is no longer any justification for women and children to be saved first.”

Huh? First of all, I don’t recall ever hearing about this rule other than in melodramatic historical dramas. Not sure this applies today, and I have yet to see any laws about this.

@poisonedantidote: “You also have all the other discrimination, be it in divorce cases, child custody cases, and so on.”

I have heard some horror stories. Yes. There is certainly some problems with child custody cases and divorce, etc. However, the whole thing is a mess. There isn’t an easy answer here.

@poisonedantidote: “Men are also objectified just as much as women, all you need to do is watch a few perfume advertisements to see how this is so.”

Or you could stop watching perfume advertisements. This goes for men and women. We don’t have a problem with gender objectification in advertising as much as we have a problem with objectification, advertising, major media, and frankly, our damn economic system. If you feel pressure to live up to whatever you are seeing in these perfume ads, that is on you – nobody else. Ads exist to sell you dissatisfaction. This is the reason they exist. Demanding reasonable portrayals of healthy men and women in advertising is like asking for textbooks to be contain numerous intentional typos and wrong info in order to not offend people who can’t spell or who are ill-informed.

@poisonedantidote: “Men are also generally punished more for their crimes, serving longer jail times than women who commit the same crime.”

I don’t have the stats here. I’ll assume you are correct.

@poisonedantidote: “So where are the complaints? where is the movement for male rights?”

You are complaining right now. But exactly what is it you are complaining about? Are you complaining that there is a lack of effort to improve things, or are you implying that the (supposed) existence of a feminist movement is somehow part of the problem?

@poisonedantidote: “There was a time, when a man would go down with the ship, or go off to fight a war, and they would be respected and thanked for doing so. However now days, the most gratitude and respect they can expect for accepting the label of being expendable people that society has given them, is to be told what a pig they are.”

You’re yearning for a time when voices of dissent were drowned out by nationalism and war-mongering? I don’t respect people in the U.S. who go off to fight wars, because these have been unnecessary wars, and here in the U.S., you have the option to not go sign up to go kill people. What the hell does this have to do with gender? The best I can muster is compassion for them. Many of them have been “forced” into the armed forces due to limited opportunity. They are expendable, forgotten populations prior to enlisting.

@poisonedantidote: “Should men fight back? and if so when?”

Fight back against what/whom? What is the force that is creating these unjust situations for men? And why isn’t it the same forces that do the same to women?

@poisonedantidote: “Or perhaps we should all just admit that life is not fair, do away with feminism and male rights, and just admit it is all bullshit, and concentrate of the rights of everyone, regardless of their gender?”

Sure. But feminism/gender issues still exist for everyone. So, we can attempt to stamp out injustice as a human, while addressing gender issues/inequality at the same time. Remember, fighting for gay rights, issues around race, and gender inequality benefit everyone. The male rebellion or minor rumblings of “what about us?” from men seem to be little more than a response to efforts to minimize male privilege.

@Shippy I’ve heard that South Africa is very beautiful indeed. People say especially nice things about Capetown.

Yes, I’ve heard that the backlash discrimination is extremely strong. I’m curious—is most of the anger directed toward Afrikaners, or is it for anyone with a pale complexion?

My South African friends tell me that Afrikaans is no longer taught in the schools. It’s the language of the oppressors, and it’s been stripped from curricula. Who can blame anyone for making that change?

@PaulSadieMartin The anger is against whites. But you know nothing is black and white. Many Afrikaners also fought the struggle. Many black people are subject to crime just as we are. Many black people are angry at their own, because as with any 3rd World country there is the rich and poor. With huge poverty in the middle. It’s sad.

There are organizations that call themselves “men’s rights groups,” but most are just misogynists looking for a flag to wrap themselves in. The others tend to be groups that either fail to realize that feminism has been fighting anti-male sexism for a long time or don’t want to call themselves feminists for some reason.

Then again, we live in a world where most people mistake a caricature of feminism for the genuine article. In the words of Ellen Page, “you know you’re working in a patriarchal society when the word ‘feminist’ has a weird connotation.”