Social Question

rojo's avatar

Is the fact that there were two responses to the State of the Union address a portent of things to come?

Asked by rojo (14584 points ) February 13th, 2013

Yesterday, in addition to the official Republican response, the Tea Party Republicans issued their own separate one.
Is this indicative of a major ideological split that is or will take place in the near future or was it just a way to double-team their opponent?

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32 Answers

wundayatta's avatar

This is a split that is already in existence. I don’t think the Tea Party will every become a significant third party, but I hope they keep on trying. I want them to draw Republicans to the right. That will make it easier for Democrats to keep the government more on the left-hand side of things. Although, it won’t be very leftward, since the center of this country is far to the right of me. But I would hate for the right hand side of center to take control. That is bad for the country.

JLeslie's avatar

Divide and conquer. LOL.

I actually wish for some reasonable Republicans to start coming out of the woodwork. But, maybe the republican party needs to be destroyed, let’s say weakened, and democrats might also start separating into different groups as well. Some very left, some more center. Maybe that is the next step if the tea party keeps on doing their thing.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Major idealogical split, always has been. As a liberal Republican, I can honestly say that I admire some things about Obama and some of his ideas. Most Tea Partyers are very anti-Obama period.

@JLeslie I generally consider myself to be a ‘reasonable Republican’ but I guess your definition could be different.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I think you are reasonable. I think generally you are more right than center on most issues, but I don’t think you follow along blindly with your party.

Being antiObama is an outrage in my opinion. I don’t like everything Obama says and does, but to be anti-him means never even bothering to listen. Every so often he wants to do things that the right agrees with, and as soon it becomes an idea Obama agrees with, suddenly it is liberal nonsense and bad for America. I really object to people who think a President, any of our Presidents want to destroy America. I fully believe all of our Presidents believe they are trying to help America and Americans. People just disagree on how to do it, and also sometimes what we think is a great idea, in practice does not work out that way.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Well thanks, I try very hard to be reasonable. When it comes to religion, I do skew a little right, but in my defense, if you are a real believer it’s hard not to do that.

Obama’s idealism is inspiring, I’ll leave it at that- lol

rojo's avatar

@JLeslie I agree but I find it hard to fault those who are antiobama considering how I felt about bush.

JLeslie's avatar

I hated Bush. But, I did not hate everything he did and thought. I also never thought he hated America. I really can’t stand posts on my facebook that say Obama hates America.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I loved Bush, he was hilarious and could never say anything without messing it up- lol

Of course, I thought Carter and Reagen were great, too, and voted for Clinton. I have pretty much liked just about all of them – as people.

rojo's avatar

Yah, I agree with you there @JLeslie.

Pandora's avatar

I think is the same people just different names they give themselves. Marxist, conservatives, socialists, liberals, whatever corner they paint themselves into will always be the same corners. Just a different name.
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
Or in this case, shit by any other name is still shit.

ETpro's avatar

The Tea Party responses to the last 2 State of the Union speeches were not responses to what the President said as much as they were responses to the establishment Republican response. That, and the fact that neither “response” touched on what the President had actually said, but instead fought with an imaginary Straw Man who hates America and believes that every problem we face needs only a tax increase and new Government Agency to fix it; taken together they portend the end of a party.

What the GOP has become will have to be remade or it will be rejected. They do not have a message problem. Better slogans won’t do. They do not just need to find the right photo-op. They have a policy problem, and so long as they hold to policies most Americans reject, they won’t find a clever trick to sell their ideas. The fact they have now turned to rigging elections indicates that at heart, they know their policies aren’t selling, but rather than change policies, they are trying to discard democracy so that majorities aren’t required to push their agenda.

Jaxk's avatar

There seems to be a lot of confusion here on how Obama is really seen and why he won re-election. Obama is personally liked by most Americans. That is what won him the election. But on the issues, he doesn’t fair well and the electorate actually agrees more with republicans than with Obama According to Gallop there is only one issue where Obama gets more approval than disapproval.

National defense – 53% Approve, 44% Disapprove
Foreign affairs – 46% Approve, 48% Disapprove
Immigration – 46% Approve, 48% Disapprove
Energy policy – 44% Approve, 46% Disapprove
Gun policy – 42% Approve, 54% Disapprove
Taxes – 41% Approve, 57% Disapprove
the economy – 39% Approve, 60% Disapprove
Middle East: Israelis/Palestinians – 36% Approve, 55% Disapprove
The federal budget deficit – 31% Approve, 65% Disapprove

I’m not sure why Democrats believe they have a lock on the issues when so many disapprove of the way they’re being handled. Denial, I guess.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk If your assertion is true, that just emphasizes a lot of Americans are pretty stupid. You have some stats missing; a few of the social issues are left out. Those swing a lot of votes.

wundayatta's avatar

Gallup was consistently four to six points opposite the actual vote in the run up to the election. Gallup is owned by a private company with ties to Republicans. It can not be trusted any more. Switch all those poll numbers about five points to the Democratic side and you’ll see a whole different story. Gallup has no credibility any more.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie

Wundayatta has you answer. Just deny the numbers and the world comes back into focus. Just shift them all to the democratic side and you get the picture you want.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I don’t want anything.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie

Sorry, I was trying to resist an urge to say ‘it doesn’t mean that all Americans are stupid, only the ones that voted for Obama’. Luckily I was successful in not saying that but I didn’t adequately address you point.

During the election Romney was trying to make it a referendum on Obama and his failed policies. Obama, quite successfully made it a referendum on Romney. He was a rich guy that couldn’t possibly identify with your problems. His wife never worked a day in her life and even rode a horse. He had a bank account in the Caymans. He was in fact one of the hated rich businessmen. All this turned enough votes against Romney. It was an election of personal destruction. The issues played a role but so did the personal attacks.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I willingly say some Americans vote for the wrong reasons. I don’t think Romney’s wealth and his wife never having had worked mattered much at all. What mattered was during the run some Republicans said such ridiculous things about rape, and Romney filmed calling half the population slackers. I don’t mind at all that he pays low taxes as long as he is following current tax law, but I do take issue with current tax law. Most of our Presidents have been wealthy, some more than others.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jaxk I get exactly what you’re saying, of course, I’m a Republican, but I would never say everyone voting for Obama is stupid. Misled maybe, but they are extremely loyal to their idealistic leader, even if half his brilliant ideas aren’t feasible even if Reps gave in. :)

It always comes down to the Todd Akin rape comment that was blown completely out of proportion. Hmmm, wonder if Obama ever said anything he regretted, oh look, I found one.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/30/white-house-says-obama-misspoke-after-poles-demand-apology-over-polish-death/

And another
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/04/04/laurence-tribe-obama-misspoke-on-supreme-court/

Well golly gee, let’s ruin his entire career and life over it and never let it die.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie

I think you underestimate the value of ‘Likability’. It is why Obama was given a pass on his comment about rural voters clinging to thier god an guns while Romney was eviscerated on his comment about his comment on welfare. The Akin comment was used to paint the entire Republican party even though they completely disavowed both him and his comment. While Wiener didn’t seem to taint anyone but himself.

And as far as his wealth, is concerned, you must be forgetting the campaign. More time was spent on Romney’s wealth and his time at Bain than any other issue in the campaign. Hell his taxes were never really questioned by any thing other than insinuation. If you like someone, you need proof of wrong doing. If you don’t insinuation is enough.

Jaxk's avatar

@KNOWITALL

“even if half his brilliant ideas aren’t feasible even if Reps gave in. :)”

Half is way further than I would go. I applaud your generosity.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jaxk I’m trying to play nice- lol

rojo's avatar

Is this indicative of a major ideological split that is or will take place in the near future or was it just a way to double-team their opponent?

Just a reminder.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I think overall we are agreeing.

wundayatta's avatar

I am not merely denying Gallup’s numbers. I can show you excellent evidence that Gallup is highly biased. Or you can look for yourself. Just ask yourself why were Gallups tracking polls during the election always so consistently far off from most of the other polls and most particularly from the election results?

They have a consistent bias, and if you believe their numbers now, you are being deliberately ignorant. As far as I know, they have not fixed their problem, and they probably don’t intend to. They are using old methodologies and they do not sample cell phone numbers, and their results are biased as a result.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I thought about this more and it seems to me you, and others are assuming people vote for the president for likeability. Does anyone ask that specific question in a poll? And, wouldn’t it mean that republicans might be voting for him just as much as democrates or independents for that matter? I mean it is no surpruse democrats vote for him even if they don’t agree with him on all the issues. I still think leaving out abortion and gay marriage in the polls you cited is very telling. Those were huge in my opinion, especially for independents. I will vote for one or two issues if it has to do with morality and civil freedom. Those things are more important to me than money in my pocket. If the republicans dropped the abortion and gay marriage conservative stance I think they would have a real chance. Stop playing to the base on those social issues, I think it is a mistake. The republican party thinks just the opposite, so we’ll see. Gay marriage was a tricky thing with Obama. Many of the black people who vote for him are against it. Which is why I assume he lied the first time around when he ran. But, for the black people who are poor they aren’t going to vote for the republicans with their fiscal policies and especially not with those tea party voices out there.

If @wundayatta is right, and I suspect he is, if the republicans keep using gallup and gallup keeps on with their current methods, it actually gives the democrats an advantage.

Jaxk's avatar

Here is an article that talks about likability. Bush had it over Kerry and Obama had it over Romney. Not surprisingly both won.

Generally I don’t disagree with your point but if you look at polls rating the importance of issues, the economy blows away the competition. Nonetheless, it doesn’t trump ‘Likability’.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie & @wundayatta

If you don’t like Gallup use whatever you want. Gallup is not a Republican pollster but is the most easily recognised pollster. The only reason I used it was to get the detail they had. Rasmussen is normally the one I use and most conservatives do as well just because the use ‘Likely voters’ rather than all voters. I can not keep up with all the sites, pollsters, and news outlets liberals don’t like. And I won’t limit myself to the Huffington Post for all information. If you all don’t like the numbers, use your own.

wundayatta's avatar

@Jaxk Will do. And I learned my lesson from this past election.

I think Gallup is consistent, but you just have to adjust it a little to get a good answer. In the case you’re trying to make, the adjustment makes the opposite case from the one you think is true.

Jaxk's avatar

@wundayatta

It’s hard to get the same issues in different polls. I doubt that a universal adjustment such as you suggest will have any validity.For instance look at Obama’s overall job approval rating, a measure that is fairly universal amongst pollsters, and you see that Gallup is the closest to the average. Shifting 5 points would make them an outlier. I don’t see how a universal fudge factor would have any credibility.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I appreciate the link, thanks. I think I was one of those peope who when I heard people saying they felt they could sit down and have a beer with Bush, I said, “what does that have to do with anything?” Later I found out it was an actual survey question. I guess since I don’t drink beer it doesn’t register with me. If you ask me what President or politician I want to sit down with, I am trying to think who would be the most interesting, not about just hanging out and shooting the bull. I would bet most of our Presidents are nice people and full of good intentions.

wundayatta's avatar

@Jaxk It’s hard to say, of course. You could be right. With these approval polls, we have no idea how close they are to the opinion of the general population and we will never know, because there will never be an election (100% sample) for job approval. We could, perhaps, look at how closely job approval and election predictions were and then adjust based on that. We can adjust based on anything we want.

I’m not the dude from the New York Times, who got it right. I’m not from RCP. And we could argue until doomsday about how to adjust various polls to correct for mistakes in their methodologies. Gallup may have changed it’s method since the election for all I know. I haven’t been following since then. But right now, I’m going on the reputation they’ve built during the election, and I feel good about applying that correction to their other polls about political issues.

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