How can a belief become a deeply held one if you do not question every aspect of it?

I think people question a lot. But most people after doing so—although many won’t admit it, even those who say they belong to specific religions—cherrypick. It’s their belief system. A Catholic may be devout in every way, but not believe in the infalability of the Pope, or the virgin birth. It doesn’t matter, because everything else works for them. A fundamentalist Christian may not accept the interpretations in their church concerning the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the biblical punishment for homosexuality, but everything else may work for them. A Wahabi Muslim may not accept fatwahs concerning the shunning of modern wordliness, but everything else may work. Or the consumption of alcohol at a non-muslim friend’s wedding. A Jew may be very devout but not follow the Mosaic dietary laws. Many Christians are very devout, yet pro-choice. People customize, whether they admit it or not. It doesn’t seem to bother most of them. They are practical.

Some even go as far as to re-interpret the whole religion such as the Conservative Right has since Reagan by playing down, or re-interpreting Jesus’ teachings like certain passages in the Sermon on the Mount, and emphasizing other events that are more in line with their political philosophy.

I suspect very few followers of any of these belief systems buy the whole package.

I find that if you start with evidence, reason and empathy, and then provisionally accept that something is likely to be true on that basis (i.e. you’ll change your mind if conflicting evidence comes to light), then the whole “questioning ones own beliefs” becomes an integral part of deciding what to believe, and whether to keep those beliefs.

So absolutely, I do question my beliefs. Primarily because I strongly dislike the idea of holding beliefs that aren’t likely to be true.

If we define faith as believing things despite a lack of sufficient evidence, or in conflict with available evidence, then that represents probably the worst reason I can possibly imagine for believing anything at all.

“However, I do not understand why they choose to simply have faith in something, without questioning every aspect of it first”

I think that comes down to the fact that many people start with beliefs (indoctrination, wishful thinking) and then work through a post hoc process of seeking reasons to justify that belief. Basically the cart ends up pulling the horse, and our tendency for confirmation bias makes this a very difficult situation to turn around.

It is beneficial to the man to hold on to the belief of the Positive of a Positive thing.
Why would you entertain the thought of the possible negative when you already know it to be positive?

Dwelling on the negative of the Positive is what unbelief is, the practicality of it is seen in every day human relations.

The people who you encounter on an everyday basis, what are your thoughts on them?

If you are consistently wary of people, consistently thinking that they might be acting negatively towards you,yourself becomes hard and uncompromising, which in turn will cause people to be wary about you. You actually become what you think.

So I say Believe unwaveringly the positive simply for the positivity of the thought, entertain the negative only to reinforce that positive thought, not doubt it.

If your beliefs are such there is no need to question it….....

@kess Not sure if that was just a general comment, or directed at my point.

Either way, there is nothing in what I wrote that negates taking a positive approach to the people I encounter on an everyday basis. In other words it doesn’t change how someone interacts with others (there are unfriendly believers and friendly skeptics) . Most people I meet are generally good people, hence I have every reason to expect (unless demonstrated otherwise) that a stranger I meet will also be good. The only obvious caveat being situational. I am less likely to assume that a stranger is good when I myself have a lot to lose if wrong (i.e. when in a vulnerable situation).

“Dwelling on the negative of the Positive is what unbelief is..”

Not sure if I understand you there. There is nothing inherrently negative or positive about unbelief or belief. It depends entirely on what exactly it is that is being asserted.
Instead I’d say that there’s something beneficial in having ones beliefs overlapping as closely as possible with reality.

@AdamF ,Since this is a public forum, I respond according, but since you are the one posing the question, you would find that my responses will reflect the attitude, ” Who have ears to hear let him hear”. So I speak in General, but yet to the individual.

concerning this statement “Dwelling on the negative of the Positive is what unbelief is..”
I understand it would be of concern if you do not understand this.

All things are Positive
Things that are not are negative.

So negatives appears because men doubt (hold unbelief concerning) the Positive.

I stand strong in what I believe. I always have. I usually find I am actually stuck in my own ways. It is other people who question my beliefs. My brother does it to me all the time. But I am not good with change. Even though I may see something logical and my belief seems illogical, my belief works for me. I am not going to change my believe to satisfy others. I have never really questioned why. We all have different types of personalities I think I am more of a dreamer/searcher. I do dream of bigger things and search for bigger things but I never really question them, I am highly opinionated at times so I have a lot of answers but few questions. There are the personality types who do question things if they didnt we would’nt have fluther! :D

I believe my mother loves me.
Is it important to question every single aspect? (e.g., “what was her motive, really, for making lunch for me today?) I don’t think so.

I think on some level, faith is about leaping over a gap where there may not be rational proof. That’s why it’s faith, as opposed to a “truth”.

So I would question what I believe to be true, and expect it to stand the test of proof; and then there are things which I choose to believe in, because even if they aren’t true, it’s really quite useful to believe as if they were. (To take a mundane example, time is actually an arbitrary human marker. But it’s useful to function “as if” we could divide our day up into minutes and hours and days.)

No, I can say though other people question my beliefs a lot. Which would be OK if they really cared about them I guess. But they don’t.

“Deeply held” beliefs tend to be those in which one is heavily invested on an emotional level. In my Christian youth, my whole social structure revolved around a particular set of beliefs. It provided me with a sense of identity. I had made many choices based on the beliefs. All of this made me deeply invested in the veracity of the beliefs.

In the face of that kind of investment, the psychological effects of loss aversion, the endowment effect and confirmation bias kick in. The pain of considering that all of that investment might have been mistaken is so irksome that one isn’t really inclined to dig for contrary evidence. You tend to dig in even deeper; your conviction serving as a kind of talisman against the loss of your ideological underpinnings.

Lets look at the premiss, all things are Positive and Things that are not, are negative.

If all thing are positive then nothing but positive would exist.

However you go on to say things that are not positive are negative this is a false statement as you have statetd that all things are positive, negative could not exist.

Some beliefs are positive and some beliefs are negative. However this does not determine which are correct, it only shows opposite beliefs

How can we be sure that beliefs that are labled positive are positive? and how can we be sure that beliefs labled as negative are negative?

Beliefs may have been labled incorectly by mankind in the first place.
Whom decides which beliefs are the correct ones?

@Elm1969 try to understand rather than doubt, that you may understand what is at stake.
It will always miss the doubtful, though it plain to the believing.

In this world negative exist because of unbelief…

the negative appears because through unbelief they becomes relevant…

You must fist identify the thing that are as they contrast with the things that are not…..

Not knowing the difference alienate one from Truth.

I question everything, but at some point in life, you have to make a choice whether to believe or not believe or you spend your entire life believing nothing.

I question everything, all the time, and I am not afraid to re-evaluate. My dad taught us to be very open-minded. I have been christian, mormon, agnostic and athiest. I used to trust politicians (ha-ha). At least I never thought the world was flat!

@kess Your ambiguous statements are similar to words of a song writer, or maybe the words of a horoscope writer, that can be adjusted by the reader to fit with their own beliefs.

Your point could be valid to negative beliefs and positive beliefs .

@Elm1969 You see My statements as ambiguous should means you see the positive and the negative.
Hold on the the positive and you would begin to see clearly.

@kess Positive or negative beliefs are subjective.

What would you say is positive and what would you say is negative?

I may well believe that being deaf is positive, however a musician might see that as negative

Define positive and negative beliefs.

My friend you define and go along what soever you like to believe..
I have no wish to convince you either way,,,
You are well able to do that yourself.

@kess I did like the “you must fist’ part….lol

How can a belief become a deeply held one if you do not question every aspect of it?

Easy, you get tired of thinking, and settle for something. Sometimes it’s just convenient to believe it, when a doctor tells you “a virus did that”, than to go study biology, and find out for yourself that this is true.

To me, any part of science you do not get to know deeply, is akin to religion – you believe what others tell you about it to be true without having seen (or understood) the proof. The difference between science and religion though is that whenever you wish to challenge it, science says “You have no idea how long I wanted you to ask me that!” ;-)

@kess I have no intrest too, in trying to change anyones beliefs. The question that has been asked is ‘Do you often question your own beliefs?’ . My answer to that would be yes. I can continue to learn more by opening my mind to different ideas and other peoples points of view.

I have read your posts. You suggest that I should look deeper and that there are more answers to be learnt from what you have said. If I did not question my beliefs I would not bother to look deeper. However I will take the time to think about what you have posted.

I would like to think that you would be equally as open to accepting that my beliefs are just as valid as yours, and take the time to look at what I have posted.

How would you answer the question?

You cannot doubt your belief,
You establish your belief by eliminating all doubts.

If knowledge is to be real and not a form of stagnation it needs to rest on current input and be amenable to constant change. It’s not as important to have an opinion on a subject as it is to observe and reflect and be open to new ideas. In this way there are no “sacred cows” or “deeply held ” beliefs. Everything is open to change and new information. Some ideas may stand the test of time, but everything is up to constant scrutiny. Otherwise it becomes dogma.

Thank you all who have replied thus far.

@Espiritus_Corvus I find it really strange that people will pick and choose what they want from something such as the bible (or other ancient religious texts). It seems like sort of a half-belief to me. I’m quite positive these texts were not meant to be used in this manner. Yet, so many people will blindly follow some of the teachings with no question…and disregard others simply because it doesn’t suit them. Maybe the things they choose not to believe in are the things in which they found themselves questioning? It still seems like a half-belief to me (even if they perceive that belief to be a deep one). In saying that, obviously all religious people are not this way. It’s just an odd pattern that is particularly easy to distinguish.

@AdamF (regarding your first reply) I agree with you. That makes sense. However, if one is in the constant questioning phase, how can the belief be one that is held deeply….since there is no definitive stance? Wouldn’t the “deeply held belief” part come after it becomes definite? Also, if at some point, something challenges that belief (via new facts, evidence or experience)...it seems that the belief becomes less and less “deep” or true. In which, by the time you change your belief, it is no longer a deeply held one. And it is hard for me to understand indoctrination, or wishful thinking, as an actual true belief. It seems more like censorship/force and wishing, respectively. Once the person questions these ideas, making up their own mind/opinions, they can then hold a true belief on the matter. If that makes sense. I apologize if it doesn’t – I’m having a hard time trying to explain what I mean.

@kess I’m not sure I understand your analogy. I don’t really see belief/unbelief as a positive/negative respectively. One can have a negative and/or positive belief. Just because I believe in something doesn’t make it a positive. And vice versa. It’s simply a belief…or unbelief. I kind of understand what you are getting at. However, it also feels very ambiguous or indeterminate (like something a philosophy professor/student would actively cogitate).

@KNOWITALL Yes, I understand that. It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is capable of believing in nothing. It is equally hard for me to imagine a deeply held belief as something that has not been questioned (by the believer). Maybe that is why there are very few beliefs I hold very deeply, as I am frequently questioning the ideas/theories I take in. I, too, am constantly questioning how I see/understand the world around me. In my experience, it is a constant of inconstant(s). I guess that is one belief I hold deeply… because the belief is something in which I am highly unlikely to change. Therefore, it is hard for me to understand how constantly changing beliefs can be held deeply or truly.
I now feel like I’m walking in circles around myself :P

@Skaggfacemutt I find it interesting how you did not mention the word “belief” even once. Perhaps, you are like me in the belief that ideas/theories are in constant motion. Therefore, it can be difficult to truly believe in something so irregular as religion. You mentioned you have been “christian, mormon, agnostic and athiest.” Would you say you deeply believed in these ideas/views? Or was it a constant questioning and sampling?

@Elm1969 I agree with you. Positive v.s. negative doesn’t really mean much to me in regards to beliefs. However, I think @kess is using those terms in a more philosophical approach rather than their basic definitions. He may mean a belief/unbelief is positive/negative depending on who holds/discards them. I could be very wrong though, lol.

@Earthgirl I think we are on the same page here. However, you laid the page out much more clearer than I. Which is absolutely awesome because I think I’ve made myself dizzy trying to demonstrate what you stated, so gracefully, in one small paragraph.

I want to relay that I, in no way, am trying to discredit what anyone has said thus far. My intention is not to disrespect other peoples’ beliefs. I am merely interested in how people cognitively come to hold them (and keep them). I hope I didn’t run around in circles too much…and, in turn, made some sense.
Note: I use the term/description “half-belief” as a way to explain how it feels to me. I am not accusing anyone/group of actually having less of a belief than others.

@fremen_warrior, @lifeflame, and @thorninmud Oh my goodness, somehow I missed your replies! I will have to get to you later today, as I need to sleep. And I’m on my phone now – it would take forever to reply on here, lol.

^^And @nofurbelowsbatgirl

@Plucky “However, if one is in the constant questioning phase, how can the belief be one that is held deeply….since there is no definitive stance? Wouldn’t the “deeply held belief” part come after it becomes definite?”

Perhaps one relevant example I can offer is that if one is a scientist and understands the mountains of independent supportive evidence for a particular scientific claim, then that “belief” (acceptance of a claim as being highly probable) probably gets placed in a box of beliefs that is unlikely to be shifted without exceptional conflicting evidence.

In other words, the questioning process itself allows us to distinguish between claims that have abundant evidence or not. And once a given claim is shown to be supported by abundant evidence, one could argue that the burden of proof shifts to those who are claiming that it’s in fact false.

So I don’t really see us as being in an active and constant questioning phase with all beliefs. I see the principle of reassessing ones beliefs as a constant and desirable goal, whereas the extent and frequency that a particular claim is re-assessed as dependent on the weight of supportive evidence that was sought prior to accepting it, versus whether there is any new and conflicting evidence being put on the table.

So I have no reason to reassess my belief that the Earth goes around the Sun, and I have trouble even imagining the circumstance where I would shift my view on that matter. So that goes in the passive box of accepted claims that doesn’t require active reconsideration on a daily basis.

“Also, if at some point, something challenges that belief (via new facts, evidence or experience)...it seems that the belief becomes less and less “deep” or true. In which, by the time you change your belief, it is no longer a deeply held one.”

Generally yes. I imagine beliefs shift in and out of categories regularly…or they should.

But, I guess there could be a circumstance where a deeply held belief is suddenly and dramatically discarded because of an overwhelming weight of evidence. Someone could have a deeply held belief that their husband/wife could never cheat on them…and then get shown the you tube clip… =)

“And it is hard for me to understand indoctrination, or wishful thinking, as an actual true belief. It seems more like censorship/force and wishing, respectively. Once the person questions these ideas, making up their own mind/opinions, they can then hold a true belief on the matter. If that makes sense.”

Well, I don’t distinguish “true belief” from “belief” ...but you could say it was a coerced belief. But that’s a comment on the circumstances from which the belief originated, not the validity of calling it a belief nonetheless. If somone believes something (regardless of the reason), they believe it by definition…and it’s very difficult to draw a post hoc line here between what someone chooses to believe, what we were socialized to believe, and what we were indoctrinated to believe.

But I agree that indoctrination is by definition a technique which actively subverts the questioning process (using authority and threats), so if someone was indoctrinated into a belief, we’re hardly talking to a person who decided to believe something, rather than someone who was forced to…

@kess After reading your comment, now I understand what this question is getting at. I didn’t understand it because I guess I don’t “believe” in anything! I can’t eliminate all doubts about anything. Can’t even imagine that. I don’t do “blind faith.” When I temporarily accept something as true, I am actually deciding to take a chance on it.

@Plucky I have a lot of deeply held beliefs and not all of them pertain to religion, but a lot of them do.

For instance, my deeply held belief that marriage is meant to be forever. Sure, my husband and I have issues, but that doesn’t mean you just turn your back and do what’s best for you, I committed to this man forever before God and family, so that’s what I will do if possible.

This is not indoctrination by a church (people often get divorced even if religious), or my mom (who is not married), it is based on watching my grandparents and other couples grow old together saying they wouldn’t change anything if they could do it all over again.

Question everything, even God, and if your questions aren’t answered as you wish, then it’s still your choice. That’s one of the reasons Baptists don’t baptise their children at birth, they wait for the children to make the choice.

@KNOWITALL “Marriage is meant to be forever.”

This is how my mind works; Marriage is meant to be forever . . well, maybe forever if there is a forever. Maybe until death. Unless you wind up hating the guy, then life is too short to be miserable. Okay, marriage is something you should try your level best to make work. Unless he isn’t trying at all. Okay, all bets are off!

@Skaggfacemutt
I can put it as this…
You believe because you’ve accepted something as true despite your doubts, this you do because you see that it is beneficial to yourself first and any and everyone else…..

This gets you to the second stage, where you believe because You have eliminated all doubt, this is when you Know that you Know. This is when you speak with the expectation that things will happen exactly as you believe, this is not a hope inclusive of doubt.

To never accept anything as true without eliminating all doubt is to be doubtful about everything and you believe nothing and never get to the stage of Knowing…

So to be perpetually doubtful is to remain perpetually Ignorant.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Your statement “my belief works for me” basically sums up our current potpourri-like society. This is partially why there is an ever-increasing number of choices available to us in regards to religion and politics. Whether this is good or bad, is obviously subjective. I agree, one should not change their beliefs/values simply to please others. However, believing in something one knows is illogical…seems inefficient and fleeting, to me.

@lifeflame “I believe my mother loves me”...is not really the type of belief I mean. I think your mother loving you is more of a repeating action, which shows itself as fact with every repetition. That is the best I can think of to explain it at the moment.

@Shippy I think many people often questioning others’ beliefs are often doing so as part of the discovery process in their own belief systems and values.

@thorninmud I agree with you. Deeply held beliefs almost always have strong emotional ties within the believer. And, as they continue to make decisions around that belief, it only grows that much stronger. Which is why it can be so difficult to actually see, or accept, anything different (even when the evidence is incredibly clear). It seems, to me, like it would be a type of self-deprivation in the pursuit of learning and growing . I would imagine that sort of situation, or path, would eventually take its toll on the individual’s well-being. In saying that, there are also many people simply choose put up a wall and look no further. I notice this often in people with fanatical beliefs.

@fremen_warrior I see your point. As I stated previously, that method seems like a half-belief to me. I feel convenient beliefs can be very dangerous; yet, some can be very slight and unnoticeable. The major difference between science and religion is that the latter deals in absolutes (which can not be proven/disproven). Whereas science evolves from relative truths which can be proven/disproven. A person can know science. With religion, one can believe. In that respect, it feels like I would be comparing fact with belief (which is not my motive). Cognitively, it makes more sense to see belief stemming from fact (or possible facts even). I hope that makes sense.

@AdamF Thank you for clarifying. That does makes sense. I agree with the true belief versus belief. I do not see beliefs as being better than others. But I do see them on a scale. Belief is belief. However, there are obviously different levels/intensities of belief. Perhaps using the term true belief wasn’t the best one for me to use. I’m just having such a difficult time putting into words what is so clear in my head.

@KNOWITALL Oh, I have no doubt you have beliefs that do not pertain to religion. I also do not assume everything a religious person believes is from indoctrination. For me, that would be a highly irrational approach – which would impede my own journey on learning the cognitive reasoning behind religious belief. I hope that is not how my reply to you sounded.

I am truly sorry for missing some of the posts in my initial reply. My scrolling speed probably needs to be lowered. It’s weird though, because I read everyone’s responses before deciding to reply.

(A mind thought) Are beliefs like panning for Gold.

I have heard and believe that rivers contain gold. So if I look hard through all the silt that I wash away and find Gold I will realise my belief to be true. I don’t see washing away the silt as doubt, it is simply evident that the silt is not Gold. However if I grow tired of searching for gold I could convince myself that a piece of shinny silt is Gold for my own sake of belief and do no futher panning ever as I have found what I believed and that’s it.

Others would have the burden of proof and as long as there was no test for my piece of Gold they would never be able to disagree.

However if I continued my panning and found real Gold it would easily be confirmed to be what I believed it to be. It can be be proven empirically . I could continues panning and show others and they would have the same results too.

@Elm1969 That’s a unique, and almost romantic, way to put it. Cool post. Thank you :)

I question my beliefs all the time, and as a theist I don’t believe in God due to religious indoctrination or wishful thinking. Most beliefs that people have I can assure you have at least some flaws in them. Also, one does not have to take up theism, religion or other supernatural concepts to emanate dogmatic religious behavior, as I’ve clearly learnt from hearing comments made by sceptics, reductionists and nontheists alike.

It’s ironic that most on fluther were believers/religionists who became nontheists, but I did the opposite, when I went turning from a nontheist to a theist. I could never just believe something without some type of evidence, but obviously what I see as evidence others who disagree with me don’t.