General Question

zander101's avatar

Do you feel that the bible is the foundation of morals and ethics?

Asked by zander101 (635points) October 31st, 2013

I’ve been doing my research concerning the bible and it’s teachings and I’m starting to question it as a whole?

For example:Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife.
Proverbs 21:9
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 19:13
A foolish child is a father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like the constant dripping of a leaky roof.

I understand the concept and ideology however, I feel that some people take it way to literally and use it as manipulation and control for others. There was a conversation that I was reading that talks about the above mentioned verses where one of the participants was expressing that females should be free to express themselves and it should not be defined as “quarrelsome and nagging” and for kids it’s common knowledge that children are their own person and with that being said will make mistakes but to call them a father’s ruin, I feel that’s wrong because we all make mistakes and that’s your child, to label him like that causes rebellion and parent’s should no matter what assist their kids and teach them good.
The male in the conversation stated that it’s important to refrain from speaking out of emotions and to read the passage and that King Solomon was instructing his sons on how to choose a good woman, the interpretation that I’m getting is that men should choose a women that will simply do what they tell them to do despite how they feel about it, and that “I’m the man whatever I say goes”. How does anyone feel about all that?

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118 Answers

ETpro's avatar

A book endorsing slavery, rape, misogyny, genital mutilation, burning of witches, murder, genocide, jealousy and pride? The foundation of morals? I should hope it is not, because it wouldn’t yield a very moral world.

snowberry's avatar

For example:Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife.
Proverbs 21:9 This goes for men as well as women, and I’ve heard it preached just like that.
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 19:13 Same as above.
A foolish child is a father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like the constant dripping of a leaky roof. Some children make choices that destroy their families, and they ARE truly foolish. My granddaughter is one such kid. She made a choice that destroyed her home. It was an impetuous, foolish idea. The reference about the quarrelsome wife being like constant dripping of water goes for a quarrelsome husband as well.

Lulaa's avatar

Soooooo….who in this thread doesn’t know the stress of a “nagging” wife? Put it into any terms you wish to, but everyone knows that a nagging wife is definitely a burden and a stress, indeed. So, the Bible put it into plain language….language that doesn’t care who believes and who doesn’t. Language that doesn’t care who it offends and who it doesn’t. The Bible doesn’t recognize “women’s rights” and “don’t offend” and blah blah blah. The Bible states the truth, sans the filter that we have created in our present world.

Lulaa's avatar

Oh, and to answer…(sorry!)....God is actually the foundation of morals and ethics. He made us into His image and therefore, the very meaning of morals and ethics.

Unbroken's avatar

I was brought up in a home and church that took every aspect of the bible quite literally.

To say this was unpleasant would be the largest of understatements. However intellectually I realize the broader concept of christainity is supposed to be about love and forgiveness.

So if you want to be a Christian and reap the benefits just don’t take the bible too seriously imo.

ETpro's avatar

@Unbroken Why would you take up a religion if you know that the foundational book revealing it, supposedly dictated by an omnipotent God, is hopelessly flawed.

@zander101 I know my first answer ignored your question details, but for good reason. Your base question asks if the Bible is the foundation of morals. But all the details are a special pleading fallacy confining discussion to just a few verses of it, all having to do with one very narrow aspect of what the entire work addresses. That’s kind of like asking if murder is a good thing, then defining the specifics of its commission to make it OK. No fair. Is the Bible the foundation of morals, or not?

Unbroken's avatar

Well I am not Christian nor do I wish to be. Walking into a church sets me on edge.

I am not arguing for but I do try not to be hostile towards people who chose that life style. I do understand many are wonderful people. And there are reasons people take comfort or joy in that.

So I am not arguing for, just merely pointing out that one can take what they want from it and not a thing more.

ZEPHYRA's avatar

@Lulaa if He made us into His image it means He didn’t do a very good job of it and that He is not such a great Guy, in fact, He made a mess of it all!

ETpro's avatar

@Unbroken As soon as you agree that that one book is the one and only guide to what is and isn’t moral, you have given license to all to take whatever resonates with them from it. One only has to look at the Evangelical Christian right, Christian Dominionists, the Catholic Church during the Crusades the Inquisition, witch burning and their support of Nazism to see that is abundantly true.

whitenoise's avatar

No…. The whole idea is even silly. There are many people in this world that have never been near a bible and these have morals too. Throughout history, the bible has been there for only a very limited, recent period. People clearly had morals befrore the bible as well.

For many individuals, their belief in God is a moral base/guideline, though. That in itself, however, doesn’t make the bible the exlusive foundation.

Many core values that most people I know, including Christians, care about have only come to fruition recently, when the biblical religions lost most of their grip on society. Like equal rights for men and women, freedom of religion, no public punishments, social mobility, etceteras.

To base one’s morals on the bible exclusively is a silly, unwise and, thankfully, impossible practise. As your own examples prove and Snowberry makes clear above…. (s)he takes the biblical quote and adds a modern humanistic value to it:”[this] goes for man as well as women.”

whitenoise's avatar

@Lulaa

I have not known that stress.

Your answer spooks me, though. Without a proper interpretation, as is for isntance given by @snowberry, these are scary quotes to be taken literal.

Unbroken's avatar

@Rarebear we may disagree in many things. But I’ve noticed you post tim Minchin more then once, and I just wanted to say I am quite fond of him as well.

@ETpro I would agree terrible things have been done at the door of Christianity. I would like to say that many used the bible and religion for their own purposes, political and otherwise. That would make sense, the crusades were more about territory etc etc but I can’t and won’t speak to their motivations.

Propaganda and fear campaigns have similar effect.

I also know a lot of people who use the bible as their moral compass and they are quite sane kind and good. I don’t know as to say it is their only moral guide. I think that would be rather impossible with so many other influences and societal pressures.

Regardless I have no right to give license. People are entitled and can’t be forced to believe anything. I believe that trying to shame them for the purpose of dictating to them what they should not believe is cause for creating extremists and widening the gap between nonbelievers and believers.

I can understand frustration because historically and even presently atheism can be frowned upon or worse. It is natural to strike back with equal antipathy. But one begats another and a vicious cycle ensues.

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livelaughlove21's avatar

What? Absolutely not.

Check these passages out. There’s nothing moral about anything there.

LostInParadise's avatar

Nobody reads Leviticus, and with good reason.

I am no expert on this, but it is my understanding that Jesus spoke of the distinction between the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law, meaning that all of the highly detailed laws of the Old Testament, telling people how to live their lives from dawn to dusk, could be pretty much ignored. Of course, this raises the question of how you distinguish between spirit and letter.

zander101's avatar

@ETpro I understand where your coming from, I was inquiring only because I’ve met personalities that take the bible WAYYY to seriously to the point where it kind of frightens me, where they would be devoid of emotions and allign themselves with the teachings. Which concerns me because they are so quick to judge others but when they need help they feel that the world is abandoning them, but yet they fail to understand that they are sustaining certain attitudes, which I feel sustains a negative cycle in this world. Change can happen, people make it difficult.

ucme's avatar

It’s a stunning piece of fiction from beginning to end which millions buy into, much the same as the Harry Potter books only more sarcasm.

Seek's avatar

Everything @ETpro said.

Yes, there are some good things in the Bible, but there is also a lot of evil. We use our OWN morality to determine which bits to ignore. For example, when was the last time you killed a witch, or saw a rape victim sentenced to death for not screaming loud enough to encourage someone to save her?

LuckyGuy's avatar

There were morals and ethics in cultures well before Christianity and the Bible were conceived.
Old cultures: China, Japan, etc. got along just fine following their own, similar rules.

It should not take almost a million words to say: “Treat others as you wish to be treated.”

tom_g's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr: “We use our OWN morality to determine which bits to ignore.”

Exactly. What people seem to miss when they declare that a book is the source of morality is that we can only recognize moral statements in those books – whether we agree with them or not – by employing our understanding of morality. It’s not just the fact that the supposed moral declarations in the bible are quite awful – asserting that something is right because a book says it is shatters everyone’s understanding of what it means for things to be right or wrong in a moral context.

Morality as declarations from an old book is not what we now understand to be morality. We understand it now as a having to do with consequences of our actions and human well being or happiness.

elbanditoroso's avatar

For some people it is. For others it is not.

There is a sizeable percentage of the world’s population (several billion) that are non Judeo-Christian, and do not read the bible. The Hindu, Buddhist, various African tribes, etc., all have their own beliefs, which are decidedly not based on the Jewish bible.

Yet somehow these 3 billion other people live ethical and moral lives. Why is that?

My guess is that they have developed their own codes and beliefs that are NOT based on the bible.

So the answer to your question is definitely NO.

Neodarwinian's avatar

No.

All the moral precept found in the bible have predecessors.

GrandmaC's avatar

I don’t think there’s too much of a danger of very many men reading that and moving to the desert or on top of their roof because their wife is quarrelsome. Most likely, they would agree that a quarrelsome spouse does make living conditions unpleasant and perhaps try to repair the relationship.

When one spouse picks fights all the time, it is often because the other one just quietly puts up with it. That doesn’t make for a healthy environment to raise children. It’s better to confront the spouse and let him or her know it’s making them unhappy and it’s not acceptable.

ETpro's avatar

@Unbroken I am not talking about some loose cannon misinterpreting the scriptures and running off the rails. The list of sins and atrocities I provided is not some human misinterpretation of a benign text, it is specifically commanded by the God that’s being touted as the provider of the only moral compass known to man. The whole concept that the Bible is mankind’s only moral guide is absurd beyond belief.

That said, the purges and slaughter of competing sects beginning in the 1st century and carrying on till Constantine consolidated all secular and religious power in Rome, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch trials, and support of Nazism were not errors of one man; they were institutional errors supported by and carried out by millions. The fact the Church Fathers based their morality on a book that not only condoned but commanded slavery, rape, misogyny, genital mutilation, burning of witches, murder, genocide, jealousy and pride just might have had something to do with that history.

Even today, in a world where overpopulation, starvation, resource depletion and pollution is beginning to threaten continued human existence, Christian churches are doing their best to stop the use of birth control and advocate having as many children as is possible because a growing flock pumps money into their already swollen vaults. Catholic priests are working throughout the third world to convince the gullible that condoms don’t prevent the spread of AIDS, they cause it. And all that is driven by nothing but greed. The Bible a moral compass? Only if you pick selected verses and throw out all the rest.

KNOWITALL's avatar

As a Christian woman in the Bible Belt, I can assure you it’s not forcible subjugation for me and many others. It’s a willingness to submit as long as your husband submits to God and it is in the Bible.

Anyone here who has interacted with me much knows I am my own person and willing to fight for myself.

Neodarwinian's avatar

@KNOWITALL

” It’s a willingness to submit ”

Submission is submission, but I think I would rather submit to the real than the imaginary. I submitted to the draft and it took only two years of my life and my duty to country was discharged. Religion seems to want a whole lot more for no return on the rather large investment. The submission thing is one of the most disgusting things about religion. Right up there with tithing.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Neodarwinian Against my better knowledge, I’m going to respond.

Submission in itself is not wrong unless it’s abusive.
God is real to many people.
God offers quite a bit in exchange imo.

Didn’t you submit to your superior officers in the military? Do you think your aggressive personality may have some psychological impact on how you personally view submission? Are you always the aggressor in your relationships?

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flutherother's avatar

Morality comes from inside but we can agree on what is moral and what isn’t. Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you sums it up pretty well. It sounds easy but we forget, even when it is written down.

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whitenoise's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr
Such a safeword should be available in life overall, I feel.

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kritiper's avatar

No. People knew the difference between right and wrong LONG before bibles or other books were written and/or translated.

Blondesjon's avatar

In this thread’s current written document context I would say the foundation of human morals is the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Seek's avatar

GA, @Blondesjon

But even that we have to weigh against our current moral philosophy. We no longer play the “eye for an eye” game, for instance (at least, outside the Middle East).

Blondesjon's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr . . . The code actually called for monetary fines. The eye for an eye shit was those bloodthirsty Babylonians.

Seek's avatar

I concede you are correct! Yay, Ur.

Somehow I was thinking that the Code of Ur-Nammu WAS Hammurabi’s.

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hsrch's avatar

Some active, sincere church members have adopted moral or ethical beliefs that are not addressed, I think, by the theology of their particular church, I am thinking of moral vegetarian belief and practice, air and water pollution activists, reproductive rights, overpopulation, etc. These beliefs have simply been added to the dogma of their church. This seems to work OK for those folks and is an example of individuals adding their own beliefs to their total world view.

Lulaa's avatar

See, I am not speaking of “adopted” beliefs that may or may not create a “moral”.
I assume everyone on this thread agrees that there is a general Moral Law? The invisible something that tells everyone the “rightness” of something. For examples: “Lying is wrong, bravery is a virtue, don’t steal, first come-first serve, etc., etc.” Every little thing we perceive as a right or a wrong is all part of the Moral Law.
Mind you, not every one person always follows the Law, but the Law is there, no?
Therefore, if there is a general Moral Law….there has to be a law Maker. Someone, at some point had to instill the basic sense of right and wrong into humanity. Who? Who do you think did this?

Seek's avatar

Therefore, if there is a general Moral Law….there has to be a law Maker.

Why? and where did that entity come up with the law?

whitenoise's avatar

For all that think that morals need to be written down or ‘handed’ to us:

Look at this talk on ted.com, it has some beautiful examples of why that isn’t true:
http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals.html

Please watch it…. It has some very endearing examples in it.

@Lulaa, let me know what you think of it, please.

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Seek's avatar

See, but you can’t make a rule (that everything comes from something) and then in the same breath make an exception to that rule. If the “causer” gets an exception, why not cut out the middleman and allow the “cause” itself the exception?

In any case, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest the lion’s share of our moral code was granted to us through evolutionary advantage.

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whitenoise's avatar

I ameally sorry to see that none of you had the time yet to look at that beautiful video on ted.com.

Please look. It is on topic and I really want to hear your opinions.

http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals.html

LostInParadise's avatar

The problem with the religious view of morality, particularly the Christian view, is that it is seen purely in negative terms. The great invention of Christianity is the objectification of sin. Sin is no longer just a description of a certain type of behavior. It is something that clings to the soul, and not just in a metaphorical sense. In the best tradition of Madison Avenue, having invented a problem, Christianity provides the cure, the super cleanser Jesus, who will remove those awful sin stains from your soul.

We, along with the other animal species, as in @whitenoise‘s video, are social creatures. Our well being is tied in to that of the group. The group is part of our identity. We are distressed by seeing the suffering around us. We derive a satisfaction from helping others. If I were to preach morality, I would emphasize the carrot over the stick.

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ragingloli's avatar

Only bad morals.

ETpro's avatar

@Lulaa I couldn’t find it late last night, but here is the short video I wanted to post specifically addressing the instability of actual nothing and how quantum fluctuations cause quarks and leptons to pop into existence and the self annihilate in the vacuum between particles in space. It’s just 0:4:46 long and I think you;ll find the simulation of this quantum effect fascinating.

Now, if we get back to where morality comes from, it comes from evolution. Because of the law of reciprocity (what goes around comes around, or Do unto others as you would have them do unto you) even social animals develop moral behavior as a survival strategy, as @whitenoise‘s animal morality video clearly shows.

josie's avatar

I decided to give a serious answer.

The facts of reality, and the nature of human consciousness determine morality.

Scripture is nothing more than an ancient attempt to explain morality without an organized epistemology to validate it.

The people who were responsible for Biblical stories were not philosophers, and had no idea of what epistemology is. But they gave it a try anyway.

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mattbrowne's avatar

The Bible influenced the rise of Western civilization, the Age of Enlightenment, freedom of thought, the rule of law, freedom of religion, modern democracy and eventually the creation of the universal human rights. The Bible is even the foundation of the justifiable criticism of particular content of the Bible and certain interpretation of the Bible. I don’t know of any other holy book having achieved this. Justifiable criticism of the Koran still get people killed.

So yes, the Bible plays a certain role in the foundation of moral and ethics. But there are other forces at play too.

ragingloli's avatar

wtf
if anything, it has opposed all these things

mattbrowne's avatar

@ragingloli:

‘Selective perception is the process by which individuals perceive what they want to in media messages (interpretation of the Bible in this case) while ignoring opposing viewpoints. It is a broad term to identify the behavior all people exhibit to tend to “see things” based on their particular frame of reference. In other words selective perception is a form of bias because we interpret information in a way that is congruent with our existing values and beliefs. Psychologists believe this process occurs automatically.’

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception

The Bible is basically about killing innocent women and children as commanded by God. Period. Full stop.

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GrandmaC's avatar

@ragingloli if you think the Bible is basically about killing innocent women and children, you have just demonstrated selective perception.

ragingloli's avatar

If anyone is guilty of “selective perception”, it is you for completely ignoring the entirety of christianity’s history.

LostInParadise's avatar

Matt, your claims are a bit exaggerated. There is nothing in the Bible promoting democracy. Ancient Israel was governed by kings. Slavery of outsiders was considered acceptable. So much for human rights. The Enlightenment was the heyday of deism. The difference between a deist and an atheist is the theory of evolution. Let us not forget that the Church placed Galileo under house arrest for saying that the Earth goes around the sun. Not a very good way of promoting science.

mattbrowne's avatar

Educated believers do not ignore the bloody history of Judaism and Christianity. The first Jews believed in an angry, revengeful tribal God. The same happened when the Church of Rome came into being. The Church murdered Giordano Bruno and placed Galileo under house arrest. The Inquisition killed countless innocent people, justified by selective perception of the Bible. But it would be unfair to reduce Christianity to murderous popes and cardinals. There were influential Christians like Hildegard of Bingen (1098 – 1179) who studied the practical application of tinctures and herbs, or Nicholas of Kues (1401 – 1464), a cardinal who was one of the first German proponents of Renaissance humanism. It took centuries to overcome middle age thinking. Many progressive Christians wanted to understand the universe as God’s creation. Galileo was a Christian, by the way, but he interpreted the Bible differently from the ruling Church.

Would Jesus have placed Galileo under house arrest? Do his main sermons indicate any of the cruel ruling of the Church? On the contrary, he emphasized self criticism. A good example is the parable of the Good Samaritan. A traveler is beaten, robbed, and left half dead along the road. First a priest and then a Levite come by, but both avoid the man. Finally, a Samaritan comes by. Samaritans and Jews generally despised each other, but the Samaritan helps the injured man.

When I look at the Red Cross and countless NGOs and people donating money trying to help people in need everywhere in the world whatever their ethnicity, culture or beliefs, I see modern Samaritans.

Jesus condemns those who judge others before first judging themselves. Well, today we call it diversity and tolerance.

Judaism and Christianity both evolved, but this doesn’t mean that we won’t find examples of Jews or Christians today who refuse to evolve.

Seek's avatar

They haven’t “evolved” so much as begun allowing the mass ignoring of their tenets, and leaning toward secular practices in order to maintain their congregations.

LostInParadise's avatar

Well put. Society has tamed the church and not the other way around. That grand symbol of the Enlightenment, Voltaire, is a perfect case in point. Voltaire condemned the alliance between the monarchy and the church. The church was certainly not supporting democracy. The French Revolution was in part a rebellion against this unholy alliance. Fortunately, the church learned from the experience. There are, however, extreme religious conservatives in the U.S. who would like to turn back the Enlightenment. May we be spared from their madness.

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KNOWITALL's avatar

@LostInParadise I tend to think you may be correct in that ‘society has tamed the Church’. When Jesus preached love for our fellow man, there were no exceptions and the churches never seemed to really embrace that in totality.

Now if we can just ‘evolve’ past trying to convert LGBT’s to a hetero lifestyle (aka marriage) I may start going to church again. I refuse to judge or be judged or be welcomed into a family where everyone is not welcomed with open arms for who and what they are.

mattbrowne's avatar

There is a difference between taming a church (which used to be about having power over people) and understanding the messages of the Bible, in particular those of Jesus. This question is about the Bible. Religious conservatives in the US don’t hold a monopoly on how to interpret the Bible.

ragingloli's avatar

And there is a difference between “understanding the bible” and twisting the contents of the bible to make it comply with an already existing secular system of morality.
You are doing the latter.

mattbrowne's avatar

Well, reducing the the Bible to the killing of innocent women and children commanded by God is NOT twisting the content. Why not? Because anti-religious people are without doubt morally superior. Anti-religious people are never wrong in their views. There is never the need to reconsider any of their views. They already hold the ultimate truth. How can religious people be so stupid to overlook this truth? Hail the anti-religious people. Praise them. Give them all your lurve!

Seek's avatar

Why does it always come down to lurve?

@mattbrowne – If one considers the Bible a source of instructions, at best you can say it’s one of those badly-translated Engrish instruction booklets with no diagrams, that comes with your kid’s “Some Assembly Required” bicycle.

You could be able to look at the pieces you have, and compare it with your knowledge of what a finished bicycle should look like, and eventually be able to get all the right bolts in the right place.

Or you can follow the instructions according to what you think they meant to say there, and end up with the handlebars where the seat should be.

OR, you can combine the bits of the instructions that make sense according to what you already know what a bike should look like, and get it done a little bit faster, provided you don’t spend a ton of time worrying about the bad translation, and are OK with throwing away the bits that make no logical sense.

But if you do that, it doesn’t make sense to then tout the perfection and divine nature of the Instruction Booklet, and claim the Instruction Booklet was your source of knowledge in bicycle assembly, when in fact you hardly used it at all, and what you did use had to be tempered by what you already knew to be right and wrong.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I agree with you on that. After all my years in church, looking at the scripture then comparing it to MY reality, then comparing that to Jesus teachings, you basicallly come up with your own answers.

The issue of homosexuality is still a good example of the issues found with the Bible & Jesus teachings, and the modern outlook on what we’ve learned about nature vs choice.

LostInParadise's avatar

As far as the teaching of Jesus goes, if we ignore the nonsense about dying for sin (which might have been Paul’s invention), what it all boils down to is that we should be nice to each other. Jesus was not the first or the last to have that idea, and those who claim to follow Jesus may or may not follow that basic dictum. There are members of organized crime who deeply religious.

ETpro's avatar

@LostInParadise That ignores the fact that Jesus is quoted as saying “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Mathew 5:17–18. KJV. According to that, lovey-dovey Jesus was all on board with slavery, bashing babies heads against rocks, genocide, genital mutilation and the whole lot of the Law and the Prophets.

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GrandmaC's avatar

@MattBrowne, it is a commonly held belief that the Catholic Church placed Galileo under house for his science, but that was not true. It was trying to take his new theory into the realm of theology. That was right after the Reformation and the church was trying to recover from that.

The Inquisition was ordered by Queen Isabella. It was the era of absolute monarchy and monarchs could be very cruel. Isabella decided she didn’t want any Muslims or Jews living in her country and ordered them to leave. Many did not want to leave. Some lied about being Muslims or Jews. Some pretended to convert to Christianity. She knew they were lying and called in church officials to weed them out. The purpose wasn’t to convert, but to catch the ones who were lying.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

glacial's avatar

@GrandmaC “It is a commonly held belief that the Catholic Church placed Galileo under house for his science, but that was not true. It was trying to take his new theory into the realm of theology.”

So… he wasn’t imprisoned for saying that the earth revolved around the sun, but for saying that this fact is a contradiction to what the bible says. How is that an improvement?

LostInParadise's avatar

@GrandmaC , You will have to show me evidence for Galileo getting involved with theology. Galileo remained a faithful Christian his entire life. The problem was not that Galileo was trying to push science into theology but that the Church was trying to push theology into science. There is a nice quote from Galileo on this:
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree: “That the intention of the Holy Spirit is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heavens go.”

GrandmaC's avatar

The Catholic Church does not try to push theology into science. Catholic schools have excellent science programs. They teach the theory of evolution and they do not teach creationism because they say it’s not scientific.

Here’s a print out of the link I posted. It answers your question.

The Galileo Controversy
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It is commonly believed that the Catholic Church persecuted Galileo for abandoning the geocentric (earth-at-the-center) view of the solar system for the heliocentric (sun-at-the-center) view.

The Galileo case, for many anti-Catholics, is thought to prove that the Church abhors science, refuses to abandon outdated teachings, and is not infallible. For Catholics, the episode is often an embarrassment. It shouldn’t be.

This tract provides a brief explanation of what really happened to Galileo.

Anti-scientific?

The Church is not anti-scientific. It has supported scientific endeavors for centuries. During Galileo’s time, the Jesuits had a highly respected group of astronomers and scientists in Rome. In addition, many notable scientists received encouragement and funding from the Church and from individual Church officials. Many of the scientific advances during this period were made either by clerics or as a result of Church funding.

Nicolaus Copernicus dedicated his most famous work, On the Revolution of the Celestial Orbs, in which he gave an excellent account of heliocentricity, to Pope Paul III. Copernicus entrusted this work to Andreas Osiander, a Lutheran clergyman who knew that Protestant reaction to it would be negative, since Martin Luther seemed to have condemned the new theory, and, as a result, the book would be condemned. Osiander wrote a preface to the book, in which heliocentrism was presented only as a theory that would account for the movements of the planets more simply than geocentrism did—something Copernicus did not intend.

Ten years prior to Galileo, Johannes Kepler
published a heliocentric work that expanded on Copernicus’ work. As a result, Kepler also found opposition among his fellow Protestants for his heliocentric views and found a welcome reception among some Jesuits who were known for their scientific achievements.

Clinging to Tradition?

Anti-Catholics often cite the Galileo case as an example of the Church refusing to abandon outdated or incorrect teaching, and clinging to a “tradition.” They fail to realize that the judges who presided over Galileo’s case were not the only people who held to a geocentric view of the universe. It was the received view among scientists at the time.

Centuries earlier, Aristotle had refuted heliocentricity, and by Galileo’s time, nearly every major thinker subscribed to a geocentric view. Copernicus refrained from publishing his heliocentric theory for some time, not out of fear of censure from the Church, but out of fear of ridicule from his colleagues.

Many people wrongly believe Galileo proved heliocentricity. He could not answer the strongest argument against it, which had been made nearly two thousand years earlier by Aristotle: If heliocentrism were true, then there would be observable parallax shifts in the stars’ positions as the earth moved in its orbit around the sun. However, given the technology of Galileo’s time, no such shifts in their positions could be observed. It would require more sensitive measuring equipment than was available in Galileo’s day to document the existence of these shifts, given the stars’ great distance. Until then, the available evidence suggested that the stars were fixed in their positions relative to the earth, and, thus, that the earth and the stars were not moving in space—only the sun, moon, and planets were.

Thus Galileo did not prove the theory by the Aristotelian standards of science in his day. In his Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina and other documents, Galileo claimed that the Copernican theory had the “sensible demonstrations” needed according to Aristotelian science, but most knew that such demonstrations were not yet forthcoming. Most astronomers in that day were not convinced of the great distance of the stars that the Copernican theory required to account for the absence of observable parallax shifts. This is one of the main reasons why the respected astronomer Tycho Brahe refused to adopt Copernicus fully.

Galileo could have safely proposed heliocentricity as a theory or a method to more simply account for the planets’ motions. His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as truth, though there was no conclusive proof of it at the time. Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

In 1614, Galileo felt compelled to answer the charge that this “new science” was contrary to certain Scripture passages. His opponents pointed to Bible passages with statements like, “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed . . .” (Josh. 10:13). This is not an isolated occurrence. Psalms 93 and 104 and Ecclesiastes 1:5 also speak of celestial motion and terrestrial stability. A literalistic reading of these passages would have to be abandoned if the heliocentric theory were adopted. Yet this should not have posed a problem. As Augustine put it, “One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: ‘I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.’ For he willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians.” Following Augustine’s example, Galileo urged caution in not interpreting these biblical statements too literally.

Unfortunately, throughout Church history there have been those who insist on reading the Bible in a more literal sense than it was intended. They fail to appreciate, for example, instances in which Scripture uses what is called “phenomenological” language—that is, the language of appearances. Just as we today speak of the sun rising and setting to cause day and night, rather than the earth turning, so did the ancients. From an earthbound perspective, the sun does appear to rise and appear to set, and the earth appears to be immobile. When we describe these things according to their appearances, we are using phenomenological language.

The phenomenological language concerning the motion of the heavens and the non-motion of the earth is obvious to us today, but was less so in previous centuries. Scripture scholars of the past were willing to consider whether particular statements were to be taken literally or phenomenologically, but they did not like being told by a non-Scripture scholar, such as Galileo, that the words of the sacred page must be taken in a particular sense.

During this period, personal interpretation of Scripture was a sensitive subject. In the early 1600s, the Church had just been through the Reformation experience, and one of the chief quarrels with Protestants was over individual interpretation of the Bible.

Theologians were not prepared to entertain the heliocentric theory based on a layman’s interpretation. Yet Galileo insisted on moving the debate into a theological realm. There is little question that if Galileo had kept the discussion within the accepted boundaries of astronomy (i.e., predicting planetary motions) and had not claimed physical truth for the heliocentric theory, the issue would not have escalated to the point it did. After all, he had not proved the new theory beyond reasonable doubt.

Galileo “Confronts” Rome

Galileo came to Rome to see Pope Paul V (1605–1621). The pope, weary of controversy, turned the matter over to the Holy Office, which issued a condemnation of Galileo’s theory in 1616. Things returned to relative quiet for a time, until Galileo forced another showdown.

At Galileo’s request, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit—one of the most important Catholic theologians of the day—issued a certificate that, although it forbade Galileo to hold or defend the heliocentric theory, did not prevent him from conjecturing it. When Galileo met with the new pope, Urban VIII, in 1623, he received permission from his longtime friend to write a work on heliocentrism, but the new pontiff cautioned him not to advocate the new position, only to present arguments for and against it. When Galileo wrote the Dialogue on the Two World Systems, he used an argument the pope had offered, and placed it in the mouth of his character Simplicio. Galileo, perhaps inadvertently, made fun of the pope, a result that could only have disastrous consequences. Urban felt mocked and could not believe how his friend could disgrace him publicly. Galileo had mocked the very person he needed as a benefactor. He also alienated his long-time supporters, the Jesuits, with attacks on one of their astronomers. The result was the infamous trial, which is still heralded as the final separation of science and religion.

Tortured for His Beliefs?

In the end, Galileo recanted his heliocentric teachings, but it was not—as is commonly supposed—under torture nor after a harsh imprison- ment. Galileo was, in fact, treated surprisingly well.

As historian Giorgio de Santillana, who is not overly fond of the Catholic Church, noted, “We must, if anything, admire the cautiousness and legal scruples of the Roman authorities.” Galileo was offered every convenience possible to make his imprisonment in his home bearable.

Galileo’s friend Nicolini, Tuscan ambassador to the Vatican, sent regular reports to the court regarding affairs in Rome. Many of his letters dealt with the ongoing controversy surrounding Galileo.

Nicolini revealed the circumstances surrounding Galileo’s “imprisonment” when he reported to the Tuscan king: “The pope told me that he had shown Galileo a favor never accorded to another” (letter dated Feb. 13, 1633); ” . . . he has a servant and every convenience” (letter, April 16); and ”[i]n regard to the person of Galileo, he ought to be imprisoned for some time because he disobeyed the orders of 1616, but the pope says that after the publication of the sentence he will consider with me as to what can be done to afflict him as little as possible” (letter, June 18).

Had Galileo been tortured, Nicolini would have reported it to his king. While instruments of torture may have been present during Galileo’s recantation (this was the custom of the legal system in Europe at that time), they definitely were not used.

The records demonstrate that Galileo could not be tortured because of regulations laid down in The Directory for Inquisitors (Nicholas Eymeric, 1595). This was the official guide of the Holy Office, the Church office charged with dealing with such matters, and was followed to the letter.

As noted scientist and philosopher Alfred North Whitehead remarked, in an age that saw a large number of “witches” subjected to torture and execution by Protestants in New England, “the worst that happened to the men of science was that Galileo suffered an honorable detention and a mild reproof.” Even so, the Catholic Church today acknowledges that Galileo’s condemnation was wrong. The Vatican has even issued two stamps of Galileo as an expression of regret for his mistreatment.

Infallibility

Although three of the ten cardinals who judged Galileo refused to sign the verdict, his works were eventually condemned. Anti-Catholics often assert that his conviction and later rehabilitation somehow disproves the doctrine of papal infallibility, but this is not the case, for the pope never tried to make an infallible ruling concerning Galileo’s views.

The Church has never claimed ordinary tribunals, such as the one that judged Galileo, to be infallible. Church tribunals have disciplinary and juridical authority only; neither they nor their decisions are infallible.

No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo’s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo’s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo’s views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
LostInParadise's avatar

The article does not refute the fact that Galileo was put under house arrest for what he believed. It makes no difference if it was the Pope himself who gave the order or a top ranking Vatican officer, and it makes no difference if Galileo was not entirely correct in the details of what he believed. The point is that for the offense of disagreeing with the church’s scientific view, he was put under arrest.

The Church itself admitted that it was wrong

GrandmaC's avatar

You’re talking about behavior of people in the Middle Ages. They were pretty medieval. Yes, the church put him under house arrest for stirring up trouble with their theology, but not for his science. Had he kept his findings in the realm of science, he would have had the support of the church. He tried to stir up more trouble for the church right after the Reformation and it was the Middle Ages, not the 21st century.

LostInParadise's avatar

You are a hard one to convince. One last time. Galileo did not make any theological criticisms. He was a faithful Catholic to his last dying day despite the way he was treated by the Church. Galileo criticized the Church’s science. As he so elegantly put it, the Church is in the business of telling people how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. Scientists should not dabble in theology and the Church should not make experimentally unsupported statements about science.

Getting to the main point of the question, the Medieval morality of the Church lagged behind the Enlightenment morality of the rest of society. It took 300 years for the Church to issue an apology for how Galileo had been treated.

GrandmaC's avatar

Lost in Paradise, I get my information from the Catholic Church.

I am not sure what difference it make if Galileo remained a faithful Catholic, he still tried to take his theory to the realm of theology.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

Galileo could have safely proposed heliocentricity as a theory or a method to more simply account for the planets’ motions. His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as truth, though there was no conclusive proof of it at the time. Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

Seek's avatar

Ah. You get the info about the wrongdoings of the Catholic church from the Catholic church.

That’s bound to be reliable information, not at all skewed to favor the church’s viewpoint.

glacial's avatar

@GrandmaC You have posted the same tract three times, but you are not explaining how it is relevant to what @LostInParadise said about Galileo and the Church:

“Let us not forget that the Church placed Galileo under house arrest for saying that the Earth goes around the sun. Not a very good way of promoting science.”

Nothing in your tract or in what you have said in your own words has refuted this, although you seem to be implying that there is a critical and punishable difference between “saying that X is true” and “telling the Church that it is wrong to deny that X is true.”

If you think there is a difference between these two statements, can you please explain why that difference was enough to justify imprisoning Galileo, and how it shows that Galileo’s imprisonment was not an instance of the Church failing to “promote science”?

LostInParadise's avatar

@GrandmaC , I think I see what you are saying. Galileo should have said that we can calculate the positions of planets more simply and accurately if we pretend the sun is in the center of the solar system, but we really know, as the Church has been telling us, that the Earth is really the center.

What you fail to understand is that science works with the best and simplest explanation. Each time that Galileo’s calculations worked more easily and more accurately than the old Ptolemaic system, that acted as grounds for accepting the heliocentric system and rejecting the geocentric system. Each calculation that matched with observation counted as an experiment verifying Galileo’s theory. It was not necessary to launch a rocket to take pictures.

GrandmaC's avatar

No, did you read what I posted? There were 2 questions he did not answer which needed to be answered according to the standards of Aristotle. He was correct, but he had not proven his theory at that time according to the scientific standards of the time. Two problems the Catholic church had with him were that he did not call it a theory, which it was at the time due to the scientific standards and he tried to move his theory into the real of theology instead of keeping it in the realm of sciende.

glacial's avatar

@GrandmaC How can direct observation of the phenomenon be called “the standard of Aristotle”? It wasn’t physically possible in either Galileo’s or Aristotle’s time.

And anyway, who cares if Aristotle wouldn’t have approved of Galileo’s findings? What does that have to do with the morality of imprisoning Galileo for speaking the truth?

whitenoise's avatar

How come I actually understand what @GrandmaC is saying?

I don’t agree with her that it exoneratesthe fhurch, but the explanation is clear. At least to me.

The church was locking up Galileo, not because it was against science, but because Galileo challenged its authority on theological matters. Given that they might also have burned him, without a second thought, I guess their reaction to Galileo was mild.

AdamF's avatar

Sorry to back up a bit…

I assume we can define morality as something along the lines of “reasoning about the implication of our actions for the wellbeing of other conscious beings”. If not, then I probably don’t know what we’re talking about.

That said, I have no idea how the bible could be considered foundational to morality?! Three problems (some of which might have been mentioned): Anatomically modern humans having managed to survive in social groups for around 200,000 years prior to the bible being compiled (not to mention our hominid ancestors for millions of years before them); the precursors to human morality are observable in multiple species (empathy, reciprocity, fairness); and 70% of the current global population aren’t Christian; So it beggars belief to claim the bible as “foundational” to human morality? I seriously don’t even understand the basis for the claim.

Furthermore, I don’t understand how the solving of moral issues could possibly be improved by making the overriding concern what a supernatural being might want? To do so is to allow any action, no matter how demonstrably harmful to humanity, to be potentially claimed as right, based simply on whether it is deemed to be desirable to a non-participant supernatural being. Once believed to be “true”, such claims are impossible to falsify, and dangerous as hell for all of us.

How many women were burnt alive by Exodus 22:18?

And, relatedly, Christians can’t even agree about what god wants despite these “moral commandments” (but Exodus 22:18 actually means X, and is overriden by…..) So instead of resulting in an “objective morality”, they readily end up with an “arbitrary morality”; Arguing not based on what is demonstratably harmful or helpful, but about what a text did or didn’t mean, which bits are or are not metaphors, which bits do or do not override which other bits, whether someone is sufficiently nuanced and sophisticated in their interpretation to get it “right”, and of course when other Christian’s disagree…well those Christians aren’t true Christians; with all of this simply a pointless, and once again, dangerous way of trying to determine whether a particular action should be considered good or bad for humanity.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/12/how-the-bible-was-used-to-justify-slavery-abolitionism/

Luckily the bible isn’t the “foundation” of our morality, rather than a fascinating insight into how our collective moral insights have grown over the past 2000 years. Frankly, Christians are a perfect testament to this, as much of their arguing about which passages to ignore seems to stem from the goodness of their own conscience overriding the worst excesses of the bible.

Anyways, the following is a nice tribute to how far we’ve come in the last 2000 years…and it’s shorter. =)

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

LostInParadise's avatar

@GrandmaC This is my absolute last comment on this.

You have not shown any example of where Galileo tried to turn his science into theology. Saying the Church had overstepped its bounds by making unwarranted scientific pronouncements has nothing to do with theology. The quote that I cited shows that in the realm of theology Galileo was perfectly content to let the Church call the shots.

As for Aristotle, he was hardly a good example of what constitutes proper science. Aristotles’ physics was precisely what Galileo showed to be wrong, along with Ptolemy’s astronomy. The story of Galileo dropping rocks from the tower of Pisa is apocryphal, but Galileo did do experiments to show that objects all accelerate at the same rate as they fall, in direct contradiction of Aristotle’s claim that heavier objects fall faster. Galileo also came up with the law of inertia, which contradicted Aristotle’s claim that a constant force is needed to keep an object moving.

It is true that Galileo did not develop a full blown theory.That would have to wait until Newton. The Church did not have a theory either. Galileo did have a model that made predictions more simply and more accurately than the Church’s model. Science begins with observation and then proceeds to theory. Galileo also made observations of the moons of Jupiter that were consistent with the heliocentric model but which contradicted the geocentric model. The reliability of Galileo’s model was sufficient to overturn the house of cards that was the Ptolemaic model.

If Galileo had been some crackpot making absurd statements, the Church would have just laughed him off. It is because of the validity of what Galileo said, paving the way for Newton, that the Church felt compelled to get in his way.

creepypastagirl's avatar

Yes I do believe it is the foundation for morals and ethics. Firstly, because the Bible was written (obviously) in a time when they spoke VERY differently than we do and sometimes they speak in metaphors and things which makes it extremely difficult to understand what it’s saying. Secondly, you can’t take a single verse and use it to judge the entire Book because you have to understand the context in which it’s being said. When It says, “Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and ill-tempered wife” it doesn’t necessarily mean, “It’s better to live in the desert than with a naggy woman.” The Bible was written so we could know God’s expectations of us, what He did for us, and how we can be close and have a relationship with Him (which is exactly what He wants from us, NOT perfect obedience. He made us, He knows we can’t follow the “rules” He gave us which is why He sent Jesus to die for our sins. He simply wants us to want to obey Him, to want to have a relationship with Him and be close to Him and to TRY our best to lead obedient lives.) and unfortunately it’s used for everything but that. It’s not for us to judge people, that’s God’s job. I hope this helped.

Sinqer's avatar

Uh, I actually have no belief in objective morality, but funny as it might seem on the surface, I would say yes, it is a foundation of a morality.

I do not agree that there is some objectively established rights and wrongs (e.g. to kill other humans is wrong). Those that most people readily agree on (e.g. golden rule, stealing is bad, etc.) are most definitely subjective and circumstantial.

I would also point out that unlike most others, I differentiate between ethics and morals. And that is why I would describe myself as a very ethical person without a single moral. Morals are judgements, often based on sympathy or authoritarian provisions of appropriate behavior. Ethics are tenets derived from understanding causalities and deciding behavior based upon the effects with admitted subjective preference (versus projection of righteousness onto reality).

Examples:

Morality at work: The law (basically a tenet) that declares it unacceptable to kill another human being based on the conception that to do so is wrong or bad by perceived objective moral code.

Ethics at work:The law (basically a tenet) that declares it unacceptable to kill another human being based on the understanding that allowing freedom to human slaughter undermines the state of individual security desired, and likewise may hamper population stability.

Note that both the ethic and moral produced the same law, and it’s the method and ends that differ. The moral is to the end of righteousness or adherence to your book or whatever, while the ethic is to the end of security and population stability.

So I do actually think that the bible is exactly that, and is used as a foundation or cornerstone of moral code by those searching for one that agrees with the sympathetic code we derive naturally as human beings. I personally consider it as good a basis for behavior as any other, though I do not prefer it myself.

I find morality, versus ethics as I have differentiated, to be the most unappealing basis for legislation by a governing body however.

As for the remarks concerning men and how they treat their women, I follow a very similar mindset. Similar to king solomon I would likewise tell my son(s): 1 (most importantly) become self sufficient such that you can satisfy your own needs (i.e. water, shelter, change the oil in your car, etc.), 2 Establish a standard to which any woman desiring your affection must meet, and do not settle for less, since you can provide for yourself (there’s nothing wrong at all with going through life without a mate), and 3 teach any children you have everything you can so they can make decisions without your presence, and those decisions will not be detrimental to you or them.

A note on the second, your standard can be whatever you choose; it doesn’t have to be a totally obedient and submissive woman. You could set your standard to “she has to be able to kick my…”. But stick to it for the reasons you establish it, even if your reason is it’s what you prefer/want/whatever…

There are some of my thoughts :) hope you found them interesting.

zander101's avatar

@Sinqer thank you, I appreciate your transparency.

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