Does any one desire to comment on the Affordable Healthcare Act and Obama's speech?

I would like to comment! I have no idea but I lived there before Obamacare and it was bad, So, I think it’s gonna take time to iron it out people!! Gah give it a chance, it’s a brand new thing!!

A friend of mine just got a new policy under the California exchange, and her premiums were cut in half! And this does not affect people who already have adequate insurance through work or other coverage and are sticking with what they already have.

The people who are really affected are people who don’t have insurance, and it will take a bit of time to get them enrolled. But it will work out.

And @Unbroken, people with preconditions are not having a problem, they are getting insurance.

I have been in a wait and see mode since the very beginning. Beginning defined here is going back years when Obama started putting the plan together. I hate our American healthcare system. I worry Obama has done nithing to really improve it. We need watchdogs to get rid of the theft and abuse. Regulations to prevent so much fraud and theivery. Transparency and honestly in fees. I really think socialized medicine would be better, but short of that, I was thinking really open competition and transparency would be the second best. But, that never would happen either from what I can tell. Not with what people were proposing.

I hate our insurance being attatched to our employers, so Obamacare might free people from that. Imagine if the plan is decent and you don’t have to make healthcare benefits part of your employment consideration? That sounds good to me. But, the plan still does not really change the system from what I can tell. Doctors will still charge an arm and a leg and most of time make more money when people are insured not less. That is a bunch of lies. They talk about medicare, but medicare is not like having regular private insurance where the patient has a copay or high deductable.

We need to give it a chance. Ok, there needs to be some things ironed out, let’s be a little patient. If it truly is a sucky plan, we will change it or ditch it.

I got a kick out of what a facebook friend wrote yesterday on the matter. It was NSFW so I deleted some letters and words, it’s still rough though. I don’t agree with all of it, but it was fitting for the Q. proceed with caution. Flag it if it offends you.

okay, now this whole obamacare thing is bullshit. really. see, here goes my rant.

obamacare or the ACA was meant to LIGHT A FIRE UNDER INSURANCE COMPANIES! were you or will you be dropped from your plan? maybe. why? because the ACA means your insurance company will HAVE TO HAVE THESE THINGS UNDER THE PLAN! so you are griping or mad because your insurance will now have to cover ER fees? or if your doctor leaves a f——ing sponge in you? puts your tit on your asscheek or your dick on your forehead? yeah, s—- like that, INSURANCE WOULDNT COVER BUT UNDER THE ACA THEY WOULD. if you watch the news, many insurance companies will say “we cant afford this because we would not turn a profit. PROFIT! THAT MEANS THEY LOOK AT YOU AS MONEY, FOLKS! yeah, the ACA may have a rocky turnout, but you did not have to drop your f——ing insurance and go to the website. if your insurance was good, KEEP IT! the website is for folks to comparison shop and SIGN UP IF YOU DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE. it f——ing unnerves me that you all would blame the government for doing something RIGHT for once: MAKING SURE YOUR INSURANCE PROVIDER DOES NOT F—- YOU UP THE…. (deleted because really over the top)... with the wallet being your illness’ or supposed illness. F—-!

you all get pissed at obamacare, but let a rogue titty come up on tv during family time, you are quick to call the FCC… WHICH IS A GOVERNMENT SERVICE!

Yeah, Obama is the same idiot he has always been and my genius accountant will make sure to find the necessary loopholes for me to be able to legally avoid paying the individual mandate penalty (also known as young, healthy individuals like myself being forced to pay into the insurance pool to help cover the cost of treating sick people). By the beard of Zeus, may the ACA collapse quickly.

If we had a single payer system, as we should have had in the first place, this would not have happened.

A good portion of any blame is due to the Republicans who forced the law to take into account the private sector payment methods. If you want to look for cause and blame, look no further than the republicans who insisted on getting rid of single payer.

@annabee And, when God forbid people like you actually need healthcare can we start refusing treating you at the hospitals? If you had said you were poor, I have more empathy for people who can barely pay to keep a roof over their head, but young? Young people get sick too.

This is the very reason I want socialized medicine. If a “tax” paid into one central system, then when you need it any time in your life you will have paid in. When I was young I paid Met life, and then I paid Cigna for a while, then Blue Cross Blue sheild, my employers euther changed companies or I changed employers, and if tomorrow I lost my health coverage all those thousands of dollars I paid don’t amount to shit, because I paid individual companies and they stuffed it in their pockets.

When a a company I was working for closed up, one of my friends, also an employee, lost her health insurance, there was no cobra available. She did take out catastrophic insurance herself, thank goodness. She wound up needing surgery and then had compications. She had paid insurance almost her entire working career, 30 years, and had been very healthy, no major illness, no accidents, and then when she needed her insurance, because of how the private health care system works, the thousands she had paid in meant nothing. Her bill in the end was $10k with her insurance coverage she had luckily taken out.

Don’t just think about you today, think about how you want the overall system to work for everyone and yourself in the future. The greater good.

Having said all of that, I don’t necessarily agree with the penalty being imposed, because I am not sure that money is going to pay for uninsured people’s healthcare, I need to know where the money is allocated for and I don’t know.

@JLeslie “And, when God forbid people like you actually need healthcare can we start refusing treating you at the hospitals?”

Yes, you should refuse. I already took care of it anyway by signing a waiver of informed consent to not treat me if I don’t have the necessary funding.

I’m not going to get sick because I know how to avoid getting sick. I know how to avoid most accidents as well but if and when I should succumb to the tree branch that falls on my head, I will have the necessary funding for it and if I don’t, my signature says to let me die.

The greater good is a repugnant value to me. I’m not a Utilitarianist.

@annabee What waiver, that waiver doesn’t mean shit. If you get in an accident you will be treated. But, ok, at least it sounds like you have thought it through and want to take the risk, even though, like I said, if you are brought to the hospital you will be treated to the extent that they won’t let you die.

@annabee
I hope you have all the other waivers ready.
for the police to not show up when you are being robbed, stabbed or murdered.
for the firefighters to not show up when your house burns down.
for the military to just stand there and watch when you are being raped by chinese soldiers.

also, please make sure to disconnect yourself from water and power lines, and to no longer use public roads of any kind, as well as any form of public transportation.

@JLeslie,

Medical waivers. I signed a bunch. Google it. Here is an example, link

@ragingloli

If my taxes are going to fund police, fire, military, utilities, I’m not signing a waiver. Tax exempt me and I’ll sign.

Besides, I’m already using alternatives to more than half the things you mentioned. Go learn how getting of the grid works link

@annabee: “I’m not going to get sick because I know how to avoid getting sick.”

This is probably the best thing I have read on the internet.

@tom_g

It is true though. The reason why most people get sick is because of their own stupid actions. No prevention, no planning, no nothing, ignorance.

Ignore it and it will go away..

@johnpowell: “Ignore it and it will go away..”

But…when do I get to explain the germ theory of disease?

Ok, I’ll ignore it.

When people are elderly they have a big DNR sign over their bed and a copy of the legal paperwork at their bedside so ambulance people know not to do anything drastic to resuscitate or maintain life. You know why there is a big sign and the a copy of the paperwork by their bedside? Because in an emergency, medical workers have no way of accessing the information quickly, every minute counts in life and death situations. Are you carrying that paperwork with you at all times?

Ambulance and ER measures are not also as critical as keeping your heart beating and keeping you breathing. If you have an emergency and are unconscious you will be treated to some extent. Also, if you do get hurt or come down with a bad illness you might change your tune, like the women who want to do labor and deliver without drugs and then change their minds a few hours in.

If you want to take the risk, fine, I have no problem with it, but if you actually think you are not at risk? That I just don’t understand. That you feel so sure you won’t get sick? I don’t get it. How can anyone feel like that? I was just telling someone a friend of mine who is in her 30’s has walking pneumonia and when I was a kid I knew a young, healthy, stron man in his twenties, he was a cop, who died from walking pneumonia. I also know a woman who had breast cancer in her 20’s. man on the cardiac floor when my dad had his surgery was in his 20’s for his first heart attack. My health problems started in my 20’s.

I actually get high deductable health plans and pay full price all the time, so I get being willing to pay for the healthcare yourself to some extent without insurance, because ai have so many times paid on top of already having insufficient insurance, but you are truly being naive and an idealist, and I really hope for you nothing happens and you are healthy with more money in your pocket because of your decision. I really do. But, there will be many other people like you and some of them are bound to find themselves in a horrible spot.

Just curious, did you like the system before Obamacare? Did you want to just stick with that?

Getting preexisting conditions approved was the big one for me. When I was about 20 I got some scabs on my shins that were persistent. After about six months I went to the doctor (paid cash, no insurance, worked full-time) and the doctor said it was probably psoriasis. Luckily it went away on its own.

This is the moment I learned about the healthcare system. My doctor said she couldn’t really do anything for me and that she was going to make up shit to put on my chart since Psoriasis could be considered a preexisting condition and exclude me from getting insurance in the future.

So ObamaCare… Fuck Yeah.

Man, rarebear would have a field day with that line. ”...I know how to avoid getting sick.”

@JLeslie “Are you carrying that paperwork with you at all times?”

Yes, I do.

@JLeslie “if you do get hurt or come down with a bad illness you might change your tune”

Nope. I grow when challenged, not submit to it.

@JLeslie “but if you actually think you are not at risk?”

Everyone is at risk, but not everyone knows how to minimize risk. I happen to know how and therefore any suffering I might endure will be at a minimum, if at all.

@JLeslie “Just curious, did you like the system before Obamacare?”

I didn’t like the system before either. I prefer the system that preceded it which was one where the patient was doing business directly with the doctor. No insurance company in-between patient and doctor.

So what is your solution to longevity? Being a teenager doesn’t count. Please share your secrets..

@elbanditoroso

You can’t hang any of Obamacare on the Republicans. Not a single Republican voted for it nor was a single Republican recommendation incorporated into it. This is entirely a Democratic fiasco. It is almost funny that the whole point was to insure everyone and at this point we more uninsured than we did before the bill. About 5 million more.

Obamacare was designed to destroy the individual insurance market and it is doing that quite effectively. We still don’t know what will happen when the employer mandate kicks in but it will bring another flood of cancellations. The only question is how big the flood will be. If you hated the old system, then you should like Obamacare because it has destroyed the old system. There will be no going back. God help us, we’re on a one way street and we don’t know where it leads.

Does Romney count?

He tried to trick younger and more well insurance pool participants into having to pay more in the exchanges, by making sure their relatively inexpensive plans would be cancelled.

He got caught in this deception, in no small part because the website was broken and people had a little time to discuss what was happening to them.

Now he is trying to shift focus back onto the insurance industry. He has been trying to vilify them from the start, so they may just tell him to get lost.

@Jaxk – I utterly disagree. The republicans forced the plan to be poorer in order help out their buddies in the insurance companies. Then they decided to vote against the abomination that they had helped create. The R party is complicit in the results because the whole ACA was swerved away from the original clean plan because of their demands.

You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that big portions of the ACA were shaped by republican objections, which caused compromises and other issues we see today.

Sure, it’s nice to blame it on Obama, but you can’t rewrite history.

I feel that this would be a good time to make a wager.

I posit that in August 2015 Obamacare will actually help a lot of people and work. Republicans will curse calling it Obamacare in the first place. Lots of dodging in debates and saying that it was a Republican idea.

For the record, I applauded Massachusetts and wished the rest of the country would do the same when I heard about Romneycare. I had no clue who he was or his party.

So 2015, August… Who wants to toss around 100 bucks? If Obamacare has a negative approval rating I will give 100 to the charity of your choice. If I am correct a 100 from you to Doctors Without Borders.

Any takers? I have done this before.

@johnpowell No bets for me, but I am very interested to see it unfold.

I think it’s a shame that the website is not working appropriately.
I think it’s a shame that some people are getting insurance policies cancelled after Obama promised & campaigned on that issue.
I think it’s a shame that some older people are getting so confused and stressed over this healthcare issue.
It’s a shame that such a low number of people have signed up so far, because Obama said he needs a lot of people to make it financially feasible, and to work appropriately.

I’m hopeful that it will be fixed in a timely fashion and that it indeed helps a large percentage of our population.
I’m hopeful that if it doesn’t work, it can be admitted and we can move on to something that will get the uninsured some help with low deductibles and good doctors.

^^What she said.

Thank you for all your thoughts. I have to admit I didn’t listen to the full presidential address.

This hasn’t come as a surprise to me. I have done a little reading and practically it made little sense. A nice campaign promise. I think Obama’s apology both troubling if it as sincere as he would have us believe he knows very little about health care and real world application of complex plans. There was an aspect of martyrdom in it I wasn’t comfortable with. On the other hand he didn’t have to make the address, even though it was his baby.

I am very dependent on my insurance but it is through my work and price increases as well as the changes in policy are worrisome. But I haven’t been happy in my job for years and the ability to change insurances is a nice one.

I am worried about a new insurance being affordable and practical. How many years it will take to iron out. That there is little being done to make the plan more effective.

@johnpowell I do hope you are right. That 2015 will be long enough to settle all these issues and the ones that will come up. So I won’t take the bet. If you are wrong I would not be able to afford it any how. But a belief you are able to put your money behind is more then what any one else has offered so points.

I’ll just add that the public policy of requiring people to have a minimal level of coverage is a good one. The Obama administration made a very stupid mistake in lying about it, though.

I haven’t been paying attention, I guess. What did he lie about?

It seems like a good one. But I have a friend who has already calculated how much the penalty to be uninsured is and determined that it us more cost effective to do so.

I have no idea where as @JLeslie pointed out that money is going. But regardless of needing healthcare if the prices are so egregious i may be forced into that position myself. Though I would not wish it. My friend though a humanitarian is very careful where his money goes and he is not thinking about the greater good in this instance as the personal cost at this point is too high and he is fiscally conservative. I was never able to build a nest egg, less fiscally conscious until recent years forced me to be. And then times have been very rough. Almost all my extra money has gone to health care and ancillary costs.

I am single and no one is going to pay my way. I am also in poor health my options are limited. I can’t afford not to some people but I have already decided against radical surgery. If I make the decision to divorce myself against healthcare I am only rushing the inevitable. But a chance to be free from it seems almost worth it.

@Dutchess_III He said that people can keep their plans if they like them. Then when the ACA came out, it turns out that many will lose their plans because they don’t meet the minimum standard of the ACA. As I said, that’s a good policy, but he never should have said that.

Oh…crap. So are those insurance companies just going to close the doors and go out of business?

This is going to take a long time to settle down….

The ACA is a FANTASTIC idea! Now if Obama would just think things all of the way through before opening his big yap! (Think “clean coal” and “cash for clunkers.”)

@Dutchess_III I saw Obama say that he is suspending the requirements for a year so people can keep their insurance. He isn’t mandating in any way the insurers must reinstate people though, he is just hoping they will.

What I don’t understand is why all of a sudden the insurers are saying the are going to close up shop, they must have known a ling time now. I think it is very purposeful to cause panic.

Yeah, I kinda sense that too. They knew what their reaction was going to be ahead of time, but waited until now to do it. That way the can blame Obama and not themselves.

@Rarebear – I gather that if a policy does not meet the minimum requirements of the ACA then the company has to upgrade its services. The customer has the option of looking for another insurance provider. Why are people complaining about it? That’s what I do not understand.

@annabee – be careful. There are absolutely no guarantees . You or I could be injured in a traffic accident, contract dengue from a mosquito bite, or come down with something exotic, like huntington’s disease. A fable which I treasure is this: a man’s grandmother died because of her tobacco addiction: she was run over while crossing the road to buy cigarettes.

@bea2345
I have a better one.
A man died from a homeopathic overdose. He forgot to take his medicine.

Even when I was young it never, ever occurred to me to go without insurance if I could possibly afford it.

@bea2345 this is just a guess. But I assume people are not complaining about the min requirement but that the companies are required to offer the same policy to every one. Our insurance has the option of being fined or switching to one basic plan that is not really customized for any one person. And therefore less compatible to individual need.

The downside of insuring every one in this manner is everyone is entitled to the same plan. Having a different plan therefore must be elitist.

@Unbroken – Thank you. (1) to offer the same policy to every one: does the ACA really do that? I thought that policies had to meet meet a minimum standard of cover.

(2) And therefore less compatible to individual need.: insurance only works because the risk of an event is spread. Only some of the policy holders claim at any one time (that is why special arrangements have to be made for earthquake, hurricane and flood insurance). If Rihanna’s legs are insured for $1,000,000. that is because everyone in her cohort is paying premiums to cover their own body parts and other properties. Of course Rihanna pays an enormous premium, but it could not be anywhere near a million dollars. A policy can only be individualised so much. As an example, a health policy that specifically excludes pregnancy makes little sense (about as much sense as excluding the risks of leprosy).

^ does the ACA really do that?

I am not certain. At the last meeting we had we were told that our policies would be changing to one plan instead of paying the fine in 2014.

We have different plans a 105 or 102 and two more options. They addressed different lifestyles, a single person or family and whether it was a secondary or primary ( only) insurance.

This was called coined as the Cadillac of insurances and such plans were all to be fined of they didn’t change them to one single plan which would not suit the best interests of any of us. A compromise where every one mutually lost out on a little, mostly presumably the insured rather then the company, although that was unstated.

It makes sense in a way because the only way insurance companies can cover riskier individuals is if everyone pays more for less. If there are minimum requirements then instead of rising above them accounting can only justify a leveling. However how could Rihanna insure her legs if there is only one plan? That I don’t understand.

Why the government would fine companies for offering different options is curious. It would be like them fining car insurance companies for allowing us to choose liability or full coverage or opt for things like car rental or roadside assistance.

@Unbroken If your company is changing to one plan that is their choice. My husband’s company still offers three plans. Unless I don’t understand what you mean by the word “plan.”

@JLeslie You motivated me to investigate, thanks.
ObamaCare “Cadillac” Tax

Starting in 2018, the new health care law imposes a 40% excise tax on the portion of most employer-sponsored health coverage (this excludes dental and vision) that exceed $10,200 a year and $27,500 for families. The tax has been dubbed a “Cadillac” tax because it hits only high-end “gold”, “platinum” and high-end health care plans not purchased on the exchange. The tax raises over $150 billion over the next 10 years.

Came from http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-taxes.php

I may have Cadillac insurance but I am single income in a state where the median income is 52,000 and I bring home 26,000 before anything is taken out. My insurance that I stayed at a crappy job for 8 years for is dumping it to avoid a 40,000 dollar fine, they already received notice of the impending fine and are acting preemptively. Great. I’m thrilled, sicker then I ever was and options are few.

@Unbroken I am going to ask my husband about the 40% tax you mention (he is VP of comp and ben for his company, so he directly works with the cost changes from obamacare. There are some things that will increase costs, but this 40% sounds wrong to me). Let’s say there is going to be a whopping 40% in 2018, WTH does that have to do with 2014? If your employers are changing things now because of something in 2018? Maybe you should wonder about how the company might be using obamacare as a scapegoat to put more money in their pockets and provide you with fewer options. Also, maybe if there is a 40% tax it is on the amount over $10,200? Not on the entire $10,200. Again, I’ll try to ask my husband. All this reinforces to me that insurance through employers is a horrible practice done in America.

Also, where do you get you take home $26k? Is that federal and state and local tax and FICA combined?

@JLeslie sorry I replied right before I went to bed. So netv gross was garbled. I brought home 26k after taxes.

It must be nice to have a hubby that is so trained to know these things. Definately tap that resource, I am interested in what he has to say.

Um as to the insurance company using aca as a scapegoat. I speculate the answer is more complicated then that. The insurance company is definitely out to make money. There is a rising cost of health care and more people in need of it. And you are right they aren’t forced to comply right now and the “forcing” of compliance is more of a fiscal pressure. But I am not privy to their books.

On the other hand this insurance has maintained the same policies for over 10 years I suspect much longer but didn’t look it up. This is this the first major over haul for people who have been employed for twenty years.

So I dug a little more and found out that insurance companies are being levied with a very large tax starting in 2014. There is a bill stuck in congress to delay that tax for two years but it hasn’t gone through yet and this is mid November. Insurance companies have been working to have new plans ready for 2014 so even if it does go through it is too late to be helpful I think. Here is a link that talks about the tax to insurance companies. http://www.ahipcoverage.com/2013/03/01/new-regulation-released-on-acas-100-billion-health-insurance-tax/ It is short but has a links to reference additional info.

So would you guys blame the ACA (“Obama”) or the insurance companies who have known this was coming for a few years now?

I am not blaming anyone. Just discussing repercussions.

I think aca and obamacare hold as much blame as well as the medical industry in its self. My goal was not to villainize.

I was trying to point out that it is the politician’s job to create spin and increase revenue and he has to be creative about that. As well as face much opposition and loop jumping.

It is the insurance companies job to generate profit. They aren’t going to work just to break even.

The medical field has to stay cutting edge pay for new equipment and research and vie for the best doctors and pay mountains in admin costs and mal practice insurance. But they are also profit driven and they have unlimited demand so they will make it out ahead or be bought out by someone bigger who will.

But all these things have real world effects. Big ones.

As to insurance companies knowing it was coming for years…. What is your point? Raising premiums ahead of time, my trust along with many others already did that. Rework plans? They are also doing that, instituting them early in some cases but they are looking at some darker uncertain roads ahead, it is practical in a sense. What else are they supposed to do, work magic with numbers? Cuz I’ve been trying that route and if there is a way I haven’t found it yet.

Excuse me if I come off a touch hostile. My humor has a twist toward the sardonic and I often come off that way without intending to.

@unbroken No, I was saying your employer is using ACA as a scapegoat (partly) for changing thei insurance choices to one choice. But, now that you bring it up, I do think insurers are happy to increase premiums again with the excuse they have to meet ACA guidelines. ACA adds some expenses, but let’s say it is $200 per policy, I would bet at least some insurances are charging the consumer $300 more.

They insurance companies have known what was going to change, so the whole deal with everyone suddenly freaking out is purposeful with the hopes it will freak out the democrats and dump the entire ACA idea. They got really lucky the website didn’t work well, it adds to the chaos.

I am not saying I agree with everything about obamacare, I am only saying don’t be naive about companies whose main goal is to make money, and I won’t be naive about Obama or the government. Both groups are far from perfect. I don’t understand when people idealize the private sector, they screw the average citizen all the time. I don’t mean all companies are all bad, not at all, but there are plenty of examples of companies making money wherever they can squeeze it out of, it is the capitalist American way over and over again in our history.

I want to go back to your taxes, sorry to dwell, but you numbers are a nice neat 50%, just rings too close to what Republicans say all the time—50%. Your make $52k gross, so your federal tax is something $7k, and that’s assuming you aren’t putting money in 401k’s nor HSA’s and other tax shelters. Social Security $3500 more or less. Then I don’t know your state income tax if you live in a state with income tax. I doubt it is more than $3k, but could be. Where is the other money going? Or, are my numbers way off?

Just really quick. I’m in a rush but I said the 52k is median wage for households in my state. I think 26 or 24 k is poverty level. And that is where I am net. Gross I think I might b 30 k

@JLeslie Sorry about the rush earlier.

I do concur. However my anxiety is rising because even if I recognize the hysteria for what it is so much is at stake for me it is hard to stay focused and rational.
A human reaction but not desirable and completely avoidable.

This happened to me: When I first moved there, a gloriously healthy young person, after a 22 hour flight I developed a deep vein thrombosis. It was near my lung. I went to a dr. and paid cash for the office visit. They wanted to hospitalise me immediately. I was able to buy the clot-buster at the hospital pharmacy and inject it myself. ( I am a dentist). All this still ended up costing $4000.00. I had insurance for many years, but at the end I did not, had something happen that I was hospitalised for. I caught the bus in front of the hospital after 17 days and tried to avoid all medical care after that. They REALLY need single pay medical care there, folks.

@trailsillustrated wow. You do what you have to. Quick thinking on your part not to be hospitalized. But that amount is egregious though not surprising.

Thank you for understanding my lapse and devolution. It can be really hard knowing you are alone without a security net and your very body is holding you back and exacerbating your troubles.

Glad it just happened to be a single scenario for you.

@bea2345 “be careful. There are absolutely no guarantees . You or I could be injured in a traffic accident, contract dengue from a mosquito bite, or come down with something exotic, like huntington’s disease. A fable which I treasure is this: a man’s grandmother died because of her tobacco addiction: she was run over while crossing the road to buy cigarettes.”

I’m not sure how you can even begin to compare yourself to me when I have never shared my wisdom with you nor are you aware of my skills. Furthermore, as it relates to the topic at hand and by the tone of your comments, you want/expect subsidisation from others or myself for any injuries or illnesses that may befall when you’re unable to solve your own problems. I, however, do not want nor expect. I solve my own problems or die trying.

So perhaps now you can see why I would be annoyed when some jagaloon in the white house decides to penalize me to help pay the medical bills for treating a bunch of candy-cake-cheeseburger-milkshake-dieters-smokers-junkies-alcoholics-chemically exposed-living in hazardous environments etc., that got sick/injured when instead they should have received a darwin award.

But that is the never ending game. Government tries to screw you and with the right lawyer/accountant, you try to beat them at their own game.

Leading causes of death

Number of deaths for leading causes of death
Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer’s disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

@annabee You have shared your “wisdom” with all of us….and it doesn’t sound wise.

What wisdom would that be? I don’t see me sharing anything other than a medical waiver and if you think that is unwise, it doesn’t shock me one bit because I have read some of your fluther history of health problems, poverty, etc.

You seem to believe you somehow have the power to avoid all accidents and illness. It pisses me off because you don’t and you’re going to end up needed serious medical care someday, and it will be up to us to provide it. All you’ll have to do is file bankruptcy and walk away.

You can carry on about DNR’s all you want, but if push came to shove, you’d choose life. To think you’d choose otherwise is is just foolish.

Yes, I had an unforeseen, major illness a year ago. The bill was over a quarter of a million dollars.

And I have gone without health insurance at different times of my life due to poverty, and I hated every second of it. It’s not like I had the choice that you have, and selfishly choose not to have it.

@Dutchess_III “You can carry on about DNR’s all you want, but if push came to shove you’d choose life.”

It doesn’t seem like you understand what DNR means. Once you go through the legal process, there is no push-come-to-shove-choice. Once they see the DNR, if at the time of injury/illness I do not have the necessary funding in my accounts, it is over. No take backs.

Well, good. That’s a load off of my mind. Unfortunately, I, and many other people, have a lot to live for, not just ourselves.

BTW, you do know, there is nothing after death. No heaven, no hell, no second chances. You just cease to exist, forever. Don’t know if that understanding would made a difference in your decision. Not that it matters.

@Dutchess_III “BTW, you do know, there is nothing after death”

I know.

@Dutchess_III “Don’t know if that understanding would made a difference in your decision”

It does not.

Most of us want death to happen fast. There are a lot of people who don’t get that luxury.

All a dnr means is they will intubate you or try CPR if in an accident. Unless they aren’t aware of of a dnr. You might want to get a med alert bracelet to that effect.
Also think about an advance directive or allow natural death instead of a dnr. Though there is some legal recourse for people to take action if they can get a ruling for mental incompetence. Some doctor’s hold with the Hippocratic oath and really hate to see people die unnecessarily.

On your judgements of other sick people, under which category I fall. Who in your point of view deserve sickness by our lifestyle and death; I do hope you learn compassion and temperance. I can’t teach those qualities to you.

In public I would advise keeping your ideas to yourself. As you will piss off a lot of people with your presumptions and condescension. A veteran suffering from PTSD or traumatic brain injury needs medical care of some sort though in most cases would have no outward appearance of it.

FWIW: Unlike you I don’t claim to know you so whether you so I don’t know if this is your place to express ideas openly without fallout onto your personal life. So I just wanted to throw that out there but whatever the case is I am sure you know best.

(I was a little confused about her mention of my past illness and poverty too. Wasn’t sure what that had to do with anything. Do you think she was saying I deserved to become sick or something?)

Well I could be wrong but that is what I got from the whole exchange. Idiocracy to the extreme. You and I know life is not that clean. I hope she learns to enjoy the chaos as much as the order. There are elements of beauty in it and the unexpected.

Does the fact that I was far from impoverished last year when I got sick make any difference? Or the fact that I lucked out and never got seriously ill when I was poor? Or, maybe I deserved to get sick because I was working and was out and about an in contact with other human beings…...who knows what it meant.

“Healthy” people get sick every day, it’s just ridiculous. Maybe she is passively suicida? If it happens, it happens. No one is looking for a free ride, I am so sick of being told that by republicans. We are saying we want to pay into a system. We pay anyway, we get charged ridiculously high prices those of us who can afford to pay. We help keep the hospitals afloat while others don’t pay their bills. The poor already had medicaid (which I know is imperfect) way before Obamacare. Right now I pay too much too often to doctors and diagnostic centers and hospitals, and also line the pockets of the insurance companies, it’s disgusting. I literally have cried from it more than once, my husband asks why I let it get to me so, and I remember once bursting into tears and telling hom, “to let me be upset about such a lack of ethics and integrity in a system I have no choice but to be a victim of.”

:(

When I first became poor I did qualify for state medical, as did my kids. That was in 1993–94. Thank God because I wound up with an ectopic pregnancy that almost killed me.
About 3 months after that I was dropped from state medical. I was told that the adults no longer were eligible for it.
If I hadn’t had the state medical I may very well have just kept trying to tough out that pain…and died. Which would have been OK, but not good for my young children who had no one but me.
I didn’t have insurance again until 1996 when I got a job that provided for it. It was off and on after that until 2006.
Currently my daughter qualifies for it, but I don’t know for how long thanks to our concerned, ethical, selfless (sarc) Kansas governor.

@Dutchess_III You do realize that you will never sway her opinion in this manner? I had to fight justifying myself to her as well. But then why bother and why am I allowing her ignorance to effect how I feel? Overall ignorance should be fought against but on an individual level it is ineffective… Read head bashing to wall… I have indulged in it and referred it.

But thank you for sharing parts of your story. Your story is a good example for everyone and I benefited from it. You make a good point medical care is not just for the sick. If she were to get pregnant or desire plastic surgery or any number of other things, by 40 or 50 she will statistically speaking need glasses or contacts. Dental hygiene is another. Etc.

@JLeslie Thank you for reminding me to put my personal experiences into context. No matter what I have gone through there is someone out there experiencing or having been through the same emotions I have. And through them I am not alone.

@Unbroken “Who in your point of view deserve sickness by our lifestyle and death; I do hope you learn compassion and temperance. I can’t teach those qualities to you.”

Consequences such as injuries/illness are the result of a choice that was made. Since the result is a consequence (injury/illness) the choice was wrong. If it was the proper choice, you would remain uninjured and on your way. Who makes the choice? The individual – you. When do you start to make that choice? When you develop the ability to reason which is around 7-years-old. When does it apply practically? When you reach the legal age of 16/18, depending on what state you reside in. If there are no choices then there are no actions. If there are no actions, there are no consequences/rewards. If there are no actions, you die. So ultimately, what I am saying is that every choice deserves exactly what it gets whether it was a right/wrong choice because it is the individual who makes that choice. It is
fundamentally impossible to free yourself from responsibility unless you’re a child who was born into sickness/injury/poverty etc.

If you want me to be specific about health, one would first have to understand what it means to stay healthy-avoid getting sick before one can decide who deserves to be sick. What does medical science say? To stay healthy one is required to exercise, eat well (proper diet and weight), proper sleep, avoid stress-injuries-smoking-alcoholism, safe-sex, proper hygiene (oral, body, hair), avoid too much sun/sun protection and finally avoid exposing yourself to chemicals/artificial material and hazardous environments (including natural disasters). Failure to do so compromises the system, triggers genetic predispositions, and you have what we have now, which is around half of the American population living with at least 1 chronic disease. So you ask me who deserves it? Aside from my ultimate answer, I would say everyone who isn’t following the fairly simple, easily accessible medical knowledge deserves the illnesses they get.

Think about it. Why do you think they started this whole darwin award thing? Because a lot of people do know right from wrong when it comes to safety/health, and yet they still succumb to their primitive instincts because they lack self-discipline. That is why you will see at times brilliant minds hit rock bottom because they were consumed by primitivism.

@Unbroken If you ever did a Q for people to share their dissappointing medical stories you would get a lot of answers I think.

@Dutchess_III ”(I was a little confused about her mention of my past illness and poverty too. Wasn’t sure what that had to do with anything. Do you think she was saying I deserved to become sick or something?)”

I brought up your past because it fits in perfectly with the answer you gave me. You had a good reason to think my medical waiver is unwise because if you had adopted my values, you wouldn’t be able to handle it, so it is no surprise for me to see you respond with rejection.

@Unbroken Actually, with that last post I was clarifying for @JLeslie that it isn’t a given that poor adults (under 65) will get health care. It depends on the state.

@annabee Wow. Yeah. I see your point. I made a choice to travel 200 miles to spend a week with my family. Therefore injuries I sustained along the way when the semi crossed the center line and hit my car are my own fault, and due to my own poor, stupid choice to travel. Wow. Yeah.

@annabee, do you not have one other person who is dependent upon you in some way? It wouldn’t bother me in the least to be dead. However, I would consider it extraordinary selfish to walk around with a DNR waiver when I had a family who depended on me, and me alone.

@JLeslie Good idea.

@annabee The world is not black and white. Your overly simplistic view doesn’t account for what is out of your control. Ie there are usually two people or more involved in an accident. So unless you are OCD and sequester yourself for fear of living life, in which case you are still at some risk however marginal there is no way to circumvent all accidents. Nor would I personally want that lifestyle should it be available. There are also hereditary diseases and people born into sickness injury and poverty unless you believe in eugenics let us consider them. Do you not realize that we still depend on the poor to lead the lifestyle we have. Or do you just have no interest in them? Who made you feudal lord?

What about war or economic crisis which are out of the control of the individual. Also most people recognize that human’s have not achieved perfection yet. Such is the case accidents will happen. In which case it does not always absolve them from the responsibility, so they make the rational and practical decision to have a workable plan b. Ie insurance, if they can afford it.

Also you forget that from birth we are dying organisms with an expiration date. Much like flowers or pets. But how that death will come is a mystery to most of us. Usually it comes slowly and painfully.

A quote I love: I’m the result of upbringing, class, race, gender, social prejudices, and economics. So I’m a victim again. A result. James Hillman

A rational argument will probably not sway you. You appear to be intractable. In which case I will let go of this as a pointless exercise in futility. Have a good day.

@Dutchess_III Sorry I did not follow the drift originally thank you for clarifying.

Another one: A super healthy young person doing random chore outside, bitten by deadly snake. Airlifted, a year and a half of physical therapy. Cost in a single payer system: 0

Well, no. See, that random healthy young person should NOT have been outside at that time. It was his or her own bad judgement that caused the problem.

@Unbroken “there are usually two people or more involved in an accident.”
@Unbroken “What about war or economic crisis which are out of the control of the individual. ”

You’re missing my point here. It doesn’t matter how many people are involved in an accident. What matters is that a body such as @Dutchess_III‘s personal story was involved in the accident because of the choice she made. The body didn’t magically appear there. If her body was not there then there is no accident. Therefore, it is impossible for her to not take responsibility for her injuries since she is the one who brought her car/body to the road for the truck to hit her. Since the end result was an injury, she made the wrong choice.

@Unbroken “So unless you are OCD and sequester yourself for fear of living life.”

If you think living a healthy lifestyle is burdensome and equate it to OCD or fear of living, then you have some serious issues and are pretty much proving my point why people deserve exactly what they choose. A healthy lifestyle should be as automatic as breathing.

@Unbroken “in which case you are still at some risk”

Thanks for proving my original point which was “Everyone is at risk, but not everyone knows how to minimize risk. I happen to know how and therefore any suffering I might endure will be at a minimum, if at all.”

@Unbroken “There are also hereditary diseases and people born into sickness injury and poverty unless you believe in eugenics let us consider them.”

Genetic predisposition. Just because someone gets Huntington disease passed down from a parent, doesn’t mean he/she will automatically get sick. It needs to be triggered. How to avoid triggering predispositions? See my answer on what medical science says regarding how to maintain health and avoid illnesses.

Plenty of people are born into poverty and plenty have come out of it. Why? Because they chose not to stay there. They chose properly and now they’re successful. Choose poorly and you stay in there forever. When does choice start practically? Legal age.

If you want to find someone to blame other than those who are born in, blame the unfit parents. They should have genetically screened themselves before considering children. It would have picked up all the genetic diseases. They should have made sure they could afford children before having them. And finally, if the government didn’t provide welfare for every new born child, among other social safety nets, unfit parents would not be able to continue their bloodline and would take themselves out of the gene pool naturally.

@Unbroken _“Do you not realize that we still depend on the poor to lead the lifestyle we have.

The poor lead the lifestyle we have? Uh, what?
I’m pretty sure it is the scientists, engineers, philosophers, and entrepreneurs that lead the lifestyle we have.

@Unbroken “Or do you just have no interest in them?”

I have interest in myself before anyone else and until I meet the level of satisfaction I desire, I will not consider helping anyone. Lets not talk about selfishness because while we’re conversing, in fact, as this day is about to end, 22,000 people in this world will die from starvation while you sit comfortably in your chair debating politics with me. You could have easily saved some of them if you weren’t all talk, but you had chosen yourself over them. Smart move, in my opinion.

Actually, that was a made up accident. But I’ll remember to ask you before I take another road trip @annabee, so you can tell me if I should go or not. You should be able to tell me if I’m going to have an accident.

@Dutchess_III

If you were a skilled driver, you would be lowering your risk of accidents. You would be able to avoid it.

If you had a better quality car, perhaps you would be hit but avoid injury.

Etc

Lmao, crying on the floor. Yep, I have passed the threshold of my ability to remain polite and courteous while talking to Miss Annabee.

You have indeed bested me. Bows in concession.

I know @Unbroken! Too much. Much too much!

@Unbroken “Does any one desire to comment on the Affordable Healthcare Act and Obama’s speech?”

It wasn’t my intention to best you. Your question asked if we had a desire to comment, so I gave my 2 cents. It is not my fault you cannot handle constructive criticism.

Yes, it IS your fault @annabee. You knew what would happen when you answered this question, but you choose to answer it anyway. Right o_O

Tongue bitten, self editing.

Yeah. Me too.

@trailsillustrated I did not mean to ignore you. I am pretty ignorant about the single payer system. The only thing I can relate it to is the electric and utility systems we have in place here. It isn’t perfect, and maybe our biggest universal failure of that nature is the postal service in America. I do see how it can be in theory a very good idea. Practically speaking, ignoring the political maneuvering to institute it, probably is our best choice. However this would not give the people more control or choice. I do see us inevitably moving in that direction, perhaps why insurance companies are being taxed so heavily to speed the whole affair along.

My idea is that the AMA, big pharma, and other such agencies are where the problem orginates but the fix is admittedly over my head. I do think problems, (symptoms) will continue to arise until some one or group gets to the bottom of the problem whether it is on a single payer system or not. Though I wouldn’t mind being wrong in this case.

@Unbroken – Thanks for the reference to James Hillman. For those who are interested the quote appears in an interview with the author in 1998 and reported in 2012.

Awesome, @bea2345 thank you for the link. I did not read and it is very good.

I do always hesitate at posting that quote I am often fearful that someone will misinterpret it. In this case I came out ahead for letting it lose. I should give more credit to people in the future.

@annabee I’d just like to say that I understand your ‘policy’ and appreciate that you are willing to take personal responsibility for your medical and financial situation. If everybody in America didn’t take thing’s (like healthcare) for granted, and paid all their bills, we’d be in a much better financial position now.

Instead we have druggies pulling their own teeth and breaking their toes and fingers for pain pills, people by the thousands ignoring medical bills because they’re ‘overwhelming’, etc… My grandpa taught me the same thing that you are practicing, if you can’t afford it, don’t buy it or use it.

… jagaloon in the white house… : I had not intended to reply to @annabee‘s comment but this article by William Thomas from the Canadian press made me change my mind. It appears that some Americans have no idea how such speech (and sometimes such behaviours) shocks foreigners. You may have the greatest contempt for your rulers and it is your democratic right to express it; but the vulgarity, the excess, is both demeaning and dangerous. Demeaning: because the expression devalues the Presidency: do you want that? Dangerous: because it provides some people a twisted justification for the belief that certain kinds of people demean the Presidency.

What you say in a private gathering is your business: what you say in public – and on the Internet, besides – is everyone’s business.

EDIT: “In President Obama, Americans have the real deal, the whole package and a leader that citizens of almost every country around the world look to with great envy. Given the opportunity, Canadians would trade our leader, hell, most of our leaders for Obama in a heartbeat.” – this is from Thomas’ article.

Wow. I didn’t realize she said that. Good catch @bea2345. I’m behind you on your thoughts, 100%. Totally inappropriate.

@KNOWITALL

He was a wise man.

Dont get me wrong, I do have the money for health insurance, but I just don’t require this type of service. Think of it this way. If you don’t care about the news, do you sign up for their service? No. However, if and when you do want to read some news, you buy a newspaper or pay for access for the day. Likewise, if and when I should need medical treatment, I will pay for it when I need it. In the mean time, I would rather buy whatever it is I truly desire. Supposedly this is a free country where I can choose what to spend my money on, in reality, freedom has been in decline since FDR took office.

@bea2345 ”(and sometimes such behaviours) shocks foreigners.”

Don’t care.

@bea2345 “Demeaning: because the expression devalues the Presidency”

Correction— His’ (obama’s) presidency.

@bea2345 “do you want that?”

Yes, I do.

@bea2345 “Dangerous: because it provides some people a twisted justification for the belief that certain kinds of people demean the Presidency.”

Don’t care.

This thread has been most interesting and it would be nice if someone could weigh in and explain why the single payer system was not adopted. At times the debate has been raucous, even scurrilous. Might I suggest that single payer has at least the virtue of simplicity?

@annabee – I would like to pursue our conversation further, but it is beside the point. It would be interesting to know the origin of the expression, for example and to know if it has ever been applied to any other President.

@bea2345 It wasn’t adopted because big business has big lobbyists. They spend all sorts of money making deals with politicians, putting out commercials and ads to convince people how horrible single payer would be. Republicans don’t trust the government to run things. Even some Democrats are afraid of turning everything over to the government. Many Americans are convinced socialized medicine will cause longer waits and lower quality of care.

@JLeslie – socialized medicine will cause longer waits and lower quality of care.: of course it will. Join the club. Practically everybody has that problem. But I do not exaggerate when I say that the current provision in the United States is unsatisfactory and even non existent if you are poor or living from salary to salary. Some of the responses on this and other threads in Fluther bear this out. On my last visit to your country I had no insurance (a mistake I will not repeat) and could not afford care when I injured my eye in an accident. Fortunately for me the injury was small and had no permanent after effects (I saw a specialist when I returned home).

@bea2345 I want socialized medicine.

@bea2345 “It would be interesting to know the origin of the expression, for example and to know if it has ever been applied to any other President.”

What expression? Jagaloon?

I’m not sure what is its origin but I don’t use it exclusively for Obama, or any other president, or on anyone for that matter.

I applied all sorts of demeaning words to the following presidents and ordinary folks based on the degree of stupidity/harmfulness of their actions…

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Truman
Eisenhower
Kennedy
Johnson
Nixon
Gerald ford
Carter,
Reagan
Bush Senior
Clinton
Bush Jr.

No one is free from being demeaned when it is called for, especially a president whose actions have an affect on others.

To me, “jagaloon’ sounds like a variation of “jigaboo” which is “Disparaging and Offensive. A black person. ” Dictionary.com

jagaloon isn’t found in the dictionary.

^^ Unfortunately, it is, if you consider this a dictionary. It has become part of some people’s common parlance. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jagaloon

Thanks @gailcalled. Still, unnecessarily offensive. Name calling just to be name calling. Which is immature. In fact, I’d call it “Behaving like a jagaloon.”

@Dutchess_III: Luckily @annabee is never stupid or guilty of behaving harmfully to anyone. (G Washington, both Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Arthur,Grant, Van Buren, Fillmore, Wilson, Taft, Coolidge, W H Harrison, Taylor, Tyler, Harding and Teddy Roosevelt also oddly are above reproach).

Funny how that happens sometimes.

@Dutchess_III ” Still, unnecessarily offensive.”

That is easy for you to say since you’re happy with Obamacare. Ask those who are unhappy and I guarantee you that my pejorative of Obama is boyscouts compare to what others would say. I think my answers made it pretty clear to justify my use of jagaloon on Obama.

@Dutchess_III “Name calling just to be name calling. Which is immature.”

Well then it doesn’t seem like you understand what the word pejorative means. link “A pejorative (also term of abuse or derogatory term) is a word or grammatical form of expression that expresses contempt, criticism, hostility, disregard and/or disrespect. ”

@Dutchess_III “To me, “jagaloon’ sounds like a variation of “jigaboo” which is “Disparaging and Offensive. A black person.”

Your comment is a great example of why political correctness is dangerous. It also looks like you’re trying to paint me as a racist, which is typical when someone’s rational arguments run out of steam.

I love ya @Dutchess_III, but I don’t think @annabee said anything wrong. :)

So, you agree with her belief that she has the power to control the universe and will never have an accident or illness which may require hospitalization @KNOWITALL?

@KNOWITALL was referring to my jagaloon comment, not my stance on healthcare.

@Dutchess_III “you agree with her belief that she has the power to control the universe and will never have an accident or illness which may require hospitalization”

My bloodline is testimony to that truth on its own. The average life expectancy of my bloodline, going back to 100’s of years of recorded history and now passed down to me and my siblings, is well above the world’s average of even current times.

@bea2345 Americans are so unaccepting of the single payer plan that the politicians must first break whatever was working and make things more difficult. Inciting fear and strongarming independent companies in hopes to first break us down so that we will be more accepting and many of us may end up begging the government to step in and create one.

Simplicity or efficient are not words our politicians know the meaning of.

I am not saying I am for or against it. I have never experienced one. I have read and seen first hand accounts that make guarded about the idea. I have also heard of successes. Every system has flaws. Like the Chinese practioner said to the western md. Sometimes I can heal sometimes I can’t. Sometimes your medicine fails and you can’t help your patients either.. loosely paraphrased. What I am reacting to is the underhanded methods employed to force people into submission. Our government was created to serve us not the other way around.

@annabee and @KNOWITALL do y’all pay taxes? City borough property federal penalties and fines? On second thought Annabelle you may not have to pay more then a speeding ticket or itwo. Depending on where you are at and what you pay. You pay for services you may or may not use. Schools and education, road, sidewalk and streetlight maintenance which include culverts and sometimes dams and flood areas to minimize water damage and chaos, fire trucks, ambulances, and policeman as well as police training. You pay for electric, and water/sewage and USPS if you ever use the mail. All singlepayer systems. Monopolies. Even TSA and many more.

These are services that are too much for the individual to pay for independently. They are not provided as rights in the constitution but it is generally accepted that they improve everyone’s life. To minimize confusion and cost these industries are paid into by almost every adult and serve all. Do you not want electricity or running water for example or even roads?

What about car insurance? Multiple companies exist yet everyone should have insurance for three reasons, to protect themselves from physical injury or suing. To protect others, and to keep from having a vehicle impounded and having to pay fines. The cost of health care and car maintentance are very large and accidents abound. Not many people have or want to use their money to pay off someone who is saying their back is forever injured and they can’t work any more. Insurance settles and takes care of that for you. So you can live your life and pursuits.

Health insurance is the same cost. Many jobs require yearly physicals. A mere follow up to a doctors office costs 250 here. Then there is birth control and pap smears std testing. Do you get tested with every partner? Do you expect taxpayers to cover that? What about pregnancy? Thousands of dollars before the baby is even born and then the baby will need vaccines and check ups and those are at least required for day care and or school. what if your baby had a health crisis or accident, are you going to sign a dnr for the child as well?

So you will use health care. Or most every human does in one way or another at some point in their life. Do you not get your teeth cleaned, or your eyes checked. No, not yet? Just wait a few years. No matter how wonderful your genes are. It is better to be prepared then scraping into your savings or worse when you could have prevented it.

Times have changed some philosophies have no real world application.

Don’t want to listen to me fine. Be stubborn, make mistakes. That’s ok because we learn so much from them. They can really be a gift and way to grow as an individual and as a society.

@Unbroken “These are services that are too much for the individual to pay for independently.”

Really? So how is that despite the taxes I’m paying for services I don’t use, I am also able to afford the alternatives services such as those of a private security firm, private ambulance service, private school, private utilities, private garbage pickup, private mail (Fedex) private etc.. ???

Let see, the market can invent something as complicated as an intel processor, but is just way too dumb to handle something like the construction of roads? Haha. You can easily disprove this argument by taking a look at the history or railroads. How do you think they were built? It was all private. Free-Market mechanics were taking care of business as they always do until government stepped in to destroy competition and create monopolies all in the name of “doing good” – “solving market-failures”. I don’t want to sound like I’m saying the market is perfect, it is not, no system is, but it is no comparison to a government-operated system. Even our own government uses the services of private military companies to take care of business.

@annabee Just for clarification, do you afford all these services, or does your parents. Side note FedEx pays the USPS so really you are supporting them.

You are quite fortunate in your circumstance. But being born into a family that has it all does not make your opinion valid. You have no life experience. When you start supporting yourself, if that ever happens, I would value your opinion, regardless of what it was.

Since the utilities were switched over in the 1930s and they were done so because of chaos and overcharging inefficiencies according to books I can’t really comment knowledgeably on that subject, neither can you.

Sunshine? Is that you?

As much as I think @annabee is naive, I do agree we should expect to pay for our healthcare. I think a lot of Republicans think Democrats want or fantasize that healthcare will be free. We realize it is not free. Things like $200 for a doctor’s appointment (let’s say two a year) and $30 a month for birth control are not outrageous costs. Paying for insurance easily is that much. If you don’t pay for insurance you can kitty that money and pay for the average healthy person’s health costs. Although, it is unfair that women have more costs to deal with than men.

The majority of working people age 18–65 can afford to pay for their healthcare out of pocket without insurance, if they plan for health expenses. The problem is when something catastropic happens. Insurance really is mostly for those things. When I was young there were a few times in my life I just had catastrophic coverage. I think it was $55 a month, and it did not cover pregnancy. That was 17 years ago, I am sure it is more now. Basically, it was a high deductable type plan, but back then HMO’s were the majority of the plans, so that was unusual. I paid out for my husband and me $1,500 in premiums and $5,000 so far in medical bills this year. Not cheap. This year was on the expensive side. If I had had no insurance it would have been close to the same total. What’s awful is, if I use my insurance I have to pay what the insurance company dictates as the price. I hate that. It is one thing I hate about our system is the consumer has very little control over what they pay, the consumer has almost no influence on prices and no autonomy.

Here’s the thing. People don’t save well in America, so socialized medicine forces the savings for healthcare. Just like Social Security sort of forces people to “save” for their retirement. I wish all the money I paid to insurers in my 20’s would have counted towards my healthccare now. Instead that money is mostly in stockholders pockets.

@Unbroken _“Just for clarification, do you afford all these services, or does your parents.

I don’t see how digging into my personal life will change the validity of my argument. You don’t even need to use me as an example. The fact is there are millions of Americans that pay taxes, don’t make use of public services, and yet they still manage to pay for all these alternative private services. The private security industry alone rakes in over $200 billion.

@Unbroken “Side note FedEx pays the USPS so really you are supporting them.”

What?

@Unbroken “You are quite fortunate in your circumstance.”

See my earlier explanation on choice/actions/consequences.

@annabee If you are young, healthy, and supported by your parents it makes all the difference in the world.

@JLeslie

You’re the one with a history of experiencing problems in your life and I’m naive? I don’t think you’re in a position to make that call.

You know, I rarely quote movies, but it applies here perfectly.

These quotes are from the movie “As good as it gets”…..

“Carol Connelly: OK, we all have these terrible stories to get over, and you…”

“Melvin Udall – It’s not true. Some of us have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that’s their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you’re that pissed that so many others had it good.”

@JLeslie “It makes all the difference in the world.”

As it relates to @Unbroken‘s argument and to the real world, it makes no difference because you would then have to explain how all the other people are accomplishing it without the support of their parents and that includes the parents of the child who is being supported.

@JLeslie I agree we do have to pay. Health care will never be free. Whether from taxes and or copays we will always pay. Nothing comes free.

I do disagree that the average working person can afford the medical costs they incur out of pocket saving or no. There does seem to be a rise in health problems. Allergies, autoimmune, gastrointestinal.

I found out that epi pens cost 1500 dollars. Really a person can and should be able to afford simple expenditures like that?

On the note that we have little or no autonomy in payment or choice I wouldn’t exactly say that the insurance company is the source of the problem.

And I feel you on the insurance payment bit.

@annabee Nobody is pissed that you have a good life. I am irritated that your good fortune makes you condescending and pretentious and qualified to make statements and judgements on people when you have no real life experience that you actually don’t any knowledge of.

Also my dear, it really sounds like you are espousing the ideals of your parents. That you have yet to develop or need to develop a personal opinion on the subject, so why bother commenting… In your words “you don’t care.”

As for the people who afford private services that is all well and good. I am not sure why what your private security service nets is pertinent. But apparently your argument for pursuing your own freedoms is not valid because you are capable of it, regardless. And I encourage you to do so.

Oh. Why is your lifestyle and experience relevant, for starters @annabee you espouse the ideals of a self made person. You are not. Everything you have was given to you. So that makes you a flaming hypocrite. Which is completely forgivable if you can admit you are one.

@Unbroken I am pretty sure epipens are about $300 for a pack of two. Still sounds outrageous to me. $1000 sounds like it might be the price they charge if you have insurance.

Rising healthcare costs is a serious problem, there I am sure we agree.

Hmm well I had to buy one for my mother and they used her maiden name one the script so the pharmacy didn’t catch her insurance. It was 1500. And with her insurance it was 300 for one.

I suppose that is irrelevant I just notice more and more people are using them. Labs and scripts are fairly common.

@Unbroken “I am irritated that your good fortune makes you condescending”

The way you frame your questions requires my explanations to be condescending, so blame yourself here.

@Unbroken “and pretentious”

No, it is called honesty.

@Unbroken “and qualified to make statements and judgements on people when you have no real life experience that you actually don’t any knowledge of.”

I don’t recall sharing with you whether I did or didn’t so that is an assumption on your part.

@Unbroken “Also my dear, it really sounds like you are espousing the ideals of your parents.”

Another assumption.

@Unbroken “I am not sure why what your private security service nets is pertinent.”

I was speaking on behalf of the entire industry, not just my personal provider. The point of sharing the revenue with you was to show you how many Americans utilize this private alternative service instead of the public police option even though they pay taxes that fund the police.

@annabee If you have never been very sick, never dealt much with doctor’s bills, and don’t have to work to live, you most likely don’t really understand how catastrophic illness can be. Especially chronic illness. DNR doesn’t apply to being just sick enough for it to torture your life, but not sick enough to drop dead.

You would be surrpised how your tune might change. My neighbor’s close friend lost her husband fairly suddently. They were right wing, criticized the poor as being lazy. Against social programs. Then her husband drops dead and she is right there talking to someone about how she can get some health like food stamps or some other social services. They always lived a middle class life, but just had not saved much.

Maybe you and your family have plenty of money, I hope you do. I mean that sincerely, money takes away a lot of stressors. If you are ok with spending what you have to for medical care that’s great. Is it really that big of a deal to pay a small penalty/tax to the government if it helps those who cannot afford healthcare the opportunity for minimal care?

@Unbroken “Why is your lifestyle and experience relevant, for starters @annabee you espouse the ideals of a self made person. You are not. Everything you have was given to you. So that makes you a flaming hypocrite. Which is completely forgivable if you can admit you are one.”

Same assumptions as before only with some zest.

@Unbroken I’m not sure how accurate this website is, but it also says around $300. I don’t link to prove I am right, as I said I don’t really know how good websites like this are, but to possibly help you the next time you need to purchase an epipen. 8 times put of 10 I find the amount a patient pays for a copay is the same amount it costs out of pocket. The doctor makes more with insurance, because the patient and insurance are both paying. Sometimes the patient portion is actually more under insurance, and sometimes less.

The other day my insurance wasn’t working for my thyroid pills, she let me just buy them at the price I always pay with insurance. Eventually it might have run through, I’‘m sure she probably tried again, but if my insurance denied it she had already sold it to me at the lower price. As far as medical procedures and doctor’s visits, going through insurance has cost me more than self pay more than once. It’s such a scam.

@JLeslie that is so weird. And the first time I have heard of such. Unless it is a place that uses a sliding scale.

As far as my statements go insurance generally pays 80% of the bill sent. I pay 20. Actually if I go to a preferred provider I pay less then the person walking off the street. Or I am the naive one.. which apparently I am.

So do you say you’ll pay out of pocket and then later submit the bill to insurance, what about with doctors you have a history with.

And that is crazy about the epi pen. I was literally sweating bullets when they told me the price minus insurance. It might have been a two pack. I just assumed it was one. But still I did end up saving money because I only paid a portion of the quoted price owing to the fact they marked it up, they marked it up prior to knowing anything about her insurance so they were quoting it to every Joe blow.

I guess I have the option of shopping online for my scripts now and it seems worthwhile to use it.

@annabee I actually didn’t make very many assumptions. You listed your age as 17 on a previous question.

You mentioned your families great genes and wealth but made no mention of your own. It doesnt take a wild leap to fill in the few blanks I did.

But if I am wrong you have thus far ellucidated on your genes, beauty, health, and just what private services you employ. Please don’t hold back how you earned such luxury, your modesty is noticed and appreciated.

@Unbroken Here is a few examples. The blood test I get regularly is $15 out of pocket, or I pay $9 and change with insurance, but the bill shows the test cost $125. When I need meds for my ectopic pregnancy, the insurance bill was $450, but if I paid out of pocket it was $45.

My husband’s CT scan was at most $750 self pay, but through insurance they billed us $1200 and insurance paid money on top of it. My girlfriend who works at a diagnostic center said they are instructed to keep their mouths shut about how much self pay is. She regularly see insurance companies billed over $2k for services that are less than $1k self pay. If your 20% is less than self pay you are happy, but the system is getting ripped off and raising all our premiums. If you have a high dedictable plan, you are paying the full $2k your insurer is willing to pay, unless you fight it, negotiate it, or do it off your plan.

If you start asking all the time what something costs self pay, and then look at your EOB’s from insurance and compare, you will start to see the scam. You don’t pay 20% of a a regular fee usually. Not that it happens with everything, but you will see a pattern. Typically what happens is they extremely inflate the price billed to insurance, the insurance has “negotiated” a lower price, and then you pay a percentage of the (lucky you, thank God you have insurance ~ ) of that “lower price.” I don’t know how often it happens with medication, but it is constant with doctor’s, hospital, and diagnostic bills. My hospital bill was over $30k, but I am so lucky I have insurance it was under $3k. If it were self pay there is no way it would have been more than around $3k. I am convinced they want you to be so ever grateful for insurance, fight for our system, vote in the right politicians, so everyone can keep paying the insurers.

The one exception I know of is the state of Maryland, I don’t remember if I stated that info on this Q. Maryland has regulations about fees and billing and has been a mini expirement for the country.

@JLeslie ” You would be surrpised how your tune might change. Then her husband drops dead and she is right there talking to someone about how she can get some health like food stamps or some other social services.”

Same answer as before. You’re comparing her to me (someone you don’t know). Wisdom and talents are different for every human. That is why there are hierarchies in all of nature. Where she failed to adapt on her own, I would survive and better yet, I would not let myself fall to such positions. Also, based on the change of her tune, she clearly lacks nobility.

@JLeslie “Is it really that big of a deal to pay a small penalty/tax to the government if it helps those who cannot afford healthcare the opportunity for minimal care?”

That depends. A $6,000 penalty is not a big deal for me in terms of my personal survival, but then again life isn’t just about surviving unless you’re poor. So is it a big deal? Absolutely. My life isn’t just about survival.

@Unbroken “I actually didn’t make very many assumptions. You listed your age as 17 on a previous question.”

Yes I did, but that doesn’t mean I was honest about it. There is a difference between sharing the fine details of beauty, wealth, character, and genes instead of sharing personal information that can cause an unnecessary risk. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the internet is not a safe place for personal information.

@Unbroken “You mentioned wealth.”

I did not.

@Unbroken “you have thus far ellucidated beauty,”

I did not.

Like I said, you have no argument. Your own example proves you wrong because you cannot explain how the parents of the supported child are able to have all these private alternatives on their own.

The flaws in your argument is your emphasis on fortunate or prior help/inheritance to achieve such a lifestyle. That is true to some extent (Paris Hilton) but it is not the standard.

@annabee: “Yes I did, but that doesn’t mean I was honest about it. There is a difference between sharing the fine details of beauty, wealth, character, and genes instead of sharing personal information that can cause an unnecessary risk. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the internet is not a safe place for personal information.”

Why waste our time making sh*t up?....

@annabee: “Well I was asked to model last year, professionally. I did it for the entire summer, so perhaps the odds are in my favor. I plan to try both services when I turn 18, which won’t be long now. I just wanted some feedback, thank you.” (from here)

Yes, that is the question I am referring to. Thanks for the link.

I don’t see how not revealing my real age is wasting your time? I am a woman, after-all. Sensitivity about age is the default.

17?! Oh. That explains a lot. She doesn’t need insurance. She’s covered under her mommy and daddy, and will be for the next 9 years! (Thanks Obama ;)

But the argument was that mommy and daddy doesn’t have insurance. Good try though. Cute.

Your parents don’t have insurance?

Guys, the desperation is leaking out of your pores. It is really quite amusing to watch what methods you guys would fall back on to derail your own arguments.

Are you sure you guys aren’t teenagers? Sure seems like it.

Do your parents have insurance?

@Dutchess_III “Actually, that was a made up accident.”

See that? Tsk, Tsk. What was that term Unbroken used? Flaming hypocrite, I believe?

One more time. It’s a yes/no question, very simple. Do your parents have insurance?

Sweat it out, sweetheart.

So, belligerent person who doesn’t understand health insurance is 17 years old. I’m wondering how much longer this will continue… this is not going to suddenly turn into a constructive discussion.

yawn

LOL! She’s watching this thread like a hawk!

I’m guessing you don’t know much about computers…

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@annabee: “I don’t see how not revealing my real age is wasting your time? I am a woman, after-all. Sensitivity about age is the default.”

It’s not that you didn’t reveal your age. It’s just odd that you felt the need to make that stuff up. Just say something like I “I don’t reveal my age”. Or just don’t say all of this…

@annabee: “Well I was asked to model last year, professionally. I did it for the entire summer, so perhaps the odds are in my favor. I plan to try both services when I turn 18, which won’t be long now.”

…when nobody asked you your age, right? Why the whole “asked to model” and “when I turn 18, which won’t be long now”?

You seem to bring “facts” about your life in to discussions quite often. Why, if most or all of them are likely just made up?

Are you ok?

Like I said, you don’t seem to understand the difference between personal information and personal characteristics. One is fine, one is risky.

Yeah, she is making a lot of stuff up.

So, what characteristics are true? Seriously. Are you really a taxpayer? Are you really a wealthy white kid woman living in an exclusively-white gated community, or are you just a 56-year-old poor, disabled Korean-American waiting for his disability check?

@tom_g So, what characteristics are true? Seriously. Are you really a taxpayer? Are you really a wealthy white kid woman living in an exclusively-white gated community, or are you just a 56-year-old poor, disabled Korean-American waiting for his disability check?”

Ah, so now that you understand the difference between the two, the next question is, does it matter?

The answer is obviously no because there are far too many Americans in the same position that I’m in and that is why Unbroken’s arguments have no validity to them.

Am I the only one to be hit with the individual mandate? No.
Am I the only one paying for private services even though I pay taxes for public? No.
Am I the only one achieving all this without the help of my parents. No.

So anything about me is completely irrelevant to the conversation and yet you’re trying so hard to find out about it or assuming.

You don’t pay for anything @annabee. Your mommy and daddy do. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

You do realize your troll tactics only work on your students in prison and possibly on your granddaughters.

This stuff doesn’t work on me.

@annabee: “Ah, so now that you understand the difference between the two, the next question is, does it matter?”

It means nothing – as long as you stop making shit up and using it in your argument. Since we don’t know anything about you, we’ll just have to deal with your @annabee-free positions. No more bringing your fake shit into a conversation. It doesn’t even add to it. It’s pure ideology anyway.

So, now that we know, you can stop pretending you’re whatever the hell you’re pretending.

Tom…he’s just a kid playing make-believe. We need to leave him alone.

“It means nothing”

Huh?

If other people are in the same position, then it means everything. It means your argument is nonsense. It means you’re not even comprehending what is going on this conversation or what goes on in the real world and that is exactly why you’re trying to troll your way out of this.

@annabee: “If other people are in the position, then it means everything.”

Nope. It means absolutely nothing. Why? Because of what I have already explained. You don’t get to pretend you are in any position again here. You just don’t. Anecdotal evidence is one thing. Made-up horseshit is another.

@annabee: You are either an astonishingly beautiful 17-year-old or a serious liar. Take your pick.

@tom_g “Anecdotal evidence is one thing. Made-up horseshit is another”

People buying private services as an alternative is horseshit? Ok, we’re done here.

You guys don’t realize that at the end of the day, you’re the one’s who are still at the bottom-of-the-barrel in society with a history of problems in your lives, so I could seriously care less about your assumptions and trolling.

^^ “I could care less’” does not mean what you think, if you really mean “I seriously don’t give a rat’s ass.” You appear to care enough to write 40 rebuttals…not counting the ones that were modded… (often repetitious).

I’m going to make a BLT heavy on the tomatoes, now.

@gailcalled “You appear to care enough to write 40 rebuttals”

In hopes of showing you the error of your ways at the topic at hand, not my personal life. But I give up.

You guys made me cry. I’m going to mommy and daddy now.

relevant

While we’re clearing the air, can you answer one last question? Are you also @tomathon?

Cute @tom_g. We needed some humor, well timed.

Announcement to all. I am sorry for engaging and giving a troll enough validity to derail a thread.

Back to @JLeslie you are a wealth of info. I will try that in the future and see how it goes. Though many services here deny a person an appt without insurance and if they do allow it demand payment in full at time of service. Thanks for sharing

Do you know someone named Harmony Alexandria?

It’s OK, @Unbroken. It was interesting, to say the least!

I went to the Doctors for what turned out to be shingles. We just got new insurance so there was a mix up and I was billed the whole $222 for the 15 minute visit. You know, if I had to pay that out of pocket, I probably just wouldn’t go.

@tom_g “Are you also @tomathon?”

Holy shit! Good eye, @tom_g. They are totally the same person.

Who is tomathon? I see where he asked a couple of innocuous questions, but that’s all. No answers to other questions.

Both users have their Responses hidden. But if you do a search on their names, there are a few threads where they tag team each other.

oic.

Are you Harmony Alexandria?

@Dutchess_III ouch shingles. I hear they are very painful. I’m glad you were able to go to the doctors.

I didn’t find them to be THAT bad. Just uncomfortable. From what I’ve heard, I was really, really lucky.

@annabee has left the building.

@Dutchess_III It’s criminal to me. $222 for a 15 minute visit. Was it the first time seeing that doctor? So, the make $888 an hour, minus of course their overhead. If they didn’t take insurance they would have one less salary to pay, because doctors have to deal with employing someone to be the liason for the insurance companies. If they worked 40 hours a week that is something like $1.8 million a year in revenue. I know it doesn’t quite work that way since some time is spent charting, but my uncle used to make $1 million a year take home as an opthamologist. He worked a lot of hours though.

It is crazy, I agree!

This may offend someone but my purpose is curiosity.

Ever been to a doctor’s office where the admin behind the desk check you in and make follow up appts and take a few payments every now and then but generally don’t like to because they don’t want to take the time to figure out your bill. And there are three or four of them to a desk. they have an automated system for appt reminder calls and they ask you to get there fifteen min prior to scheduled appt time. But they still always seem busy and sometimes you can end up in line for 15 waiting to be checked in. They have a seperate billing department that presumably bills insurance and sends out the eobs and bills to patients.

What do they do all day?

The receptionists at my doctor’s office always seem busy. Usually, when I call in, they have to put me on hold for a minute.

—Thanks. Auggie.—Ok yeah that jibes. But have you ever figured out what they do? I have never had the balls to ask one.

One thing, ALL the girls have manicured nails, right down to the techs. In fact, the other day I noticed that the tech who was taking all my states had the tips of her nails done in some sort of glitter. For some reason, she didn’t strike me as the kind of person who would do that. I asked her if having nails was a requirement of having a job there. She said it was!

What? That’s crazy, a tech? maybe so we can’t tell that they have dirty under their nails? And if they are tipped that can be a hazard because of lack of dexterity and the increased risk of puncturing the gloves.

That’s what she said! And I’m telling you, EVERY female in the place has manicured nails!

Manicured nails in bright colors, or of they are long, or funky paint, in a doctor setting can be a turnoff.

I think the receptionists are busy. Depending on the office they are taking calls, receiving faxes, making appointments, making copies, possibly puuling charts, all sorts of things.

They are all kinds. Glittery. It’s pretty, but it does seem out of place and strange that every woman has them.

This all sounds very different to the doctors’ offices I’ve been in. =)

Maybe the men should have them too…

I guess they would have to he busy with something. But in a place that has an operators phone line who can also schedule appts, a seperate records department, billing department, nurses hot line, and a scheduler for procedures as well as its own lab, and the offices have almost an equal amount of receptionists to doctors withinbthe office it does seem terribly inefficient. When they top it off by invariably making you wait and are rarely friendly I just want to check to see if they aren’t shopping or surfing, or checking the news and personal emails. And ask them what percentage of my bill goes to them.. because you do hear them everynow and again chatting about the newest headline and well to be honest that makes me resentful.

@Unbroken It would be interesting to workin a doctor’s office for a week. My pet peeve is it taking days to get my test results when the results are back in one day. Why does that take so long? Just release them to me directly from the lab for Christ sake. I get the same tests over and over again. I can interpret them just like a diabetic knows what to do, within reason, with their blood sugar levels.

Yes maybe I would have a new appreciation for the complexities if I saw it from the other end.

And lol.. I feel you. I signed up for the med portal so often I get the results faster from there then from a phone call. Do they schedule you an appt just to read them to you and fill your scripts? That is what my former pcp aka drug dealer did. I can’t believe I stayed with him for 6 years. I guess I just didn’t know I could expect more.

Btw if you don’t do the med portal or it is slow. You can ask when the tests will be ready and just request a copy. You can pick it up the same day before you head home or the next. My circumstances I usually don’t mind waiting a day. But if its an MRI they could wait a month to get around to telling you have a torn tendon and all that time you’ve been assuming it must not be that serious or they would have called. Or say something that is rigidly controlled by meds.

But to mention pet peeves well I could go on for weeks.