Social Question

BlackSwanEffect's avatar

Why are people so anxious to erode gender norms?

Asked by BlackSwanEffect (708points) November 15th, 2013

In most cultures, throughout most of history, there have been well defined gender norms. Men did the fighting, manual labour, and the running and organisation of their spheres in the community and wider political landscape. Women took care of children, their household, supported their men through difficult times, and gave balance to the hedonistic tendencies of men. In more recent times, women also took on certain jobs that are better performed with a woman’s touch.

However over the last several years, concepts such as quotas and affirmative action have skewed the marketplace of skills so that women are given an unfair advantage for acceptance into male-dominated roles, and emasculated men are drafted into female-dominated roles. While of course if a woman is better at a certain role than a man (whether it be secretary or CEO) she should be given that role, surely intentionally selecting a worse applicant based on gender is destructive?

Additionally, there is a growing trend towards failing to teach children gender norms. Pink and blue are out, and girls are given diggers to play with, and boys are given dolls. What good could possibly come from this? Should we not be fighting against gender discrimination, rather than simply promoting a different form of it? Why should we reject a model that has served us well for thousands of years, and presumably evolved for a good reason?

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55 Answers

gailcalled's avatar

Women during those thousands of years might have strongly disagreed with your thesis and the model you describe. It certainly didn’t serve most of them well.

ninjacolin's avatar

Happens to be scientifically proven that trying new things has a tendency to lead to unanticipated positive discoveries. It’s not a good idea to try to keep things the way they are for too long.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

Yes, women were chattel. Oh, happy days! ~

Imadethisupwithnoforethought's avatar

The question is, why would anybody care?

I have a penis, I am pretty confidant that the woman I have had sex with enjoyed it. I have had jobs, I am pretty confidant the woman I worked with were pretty competent and I would work with them again.

If they told me, by the way, can you address me as mz rather than mrs., I would say okay.

If somebody told me this was an erasure of norms and I should be curious about it, I would wonder what the hell this person was worried about, and how they were wired psychologically.

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Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I really can’t say I have ever been emasculated to treat a woman as my equal.

DominicX's avatar

I don’t agree with choosing someone for a job based solely on their race or gender and I don’t agree with forcing people not to conform to gender roles if they just so happen so. But I also don’t agree with forcing people to conform. You can’t have it both ways; you can’t claim to be against discrimination when all you’re doing is supporting it in a different form and that goes for people on both sides of the issue.

That said, I strongly disagree with the idea that it has “served us well for thousands of years”. Ever heard of the oppression of women? Ever heard of societies were essentially property and had very little rights? Do you honestly think systems like that “served us well”?

Just because something has been done for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. This seems to be the anti-conservative mantra. But you don’t have to be a “liberal” to see that it’s a true statement.

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ibstubro's avatar

Personally, I think the term “gender norms” is misleading and nonproductive.

Is a nuclear family better served by having a caregiver and a breadwinner? In most cases, yes. Offspring are traditionally better off with a full time parent, and a parent that provides for the materialistic needs of the family.

Are those roles gender specific? Not in MY experience.

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Seek's avatar

…women also took on certain jobs that are better performed with a woman’s touch.

Which jobs are these? and what exactly constitutes a “woman’s touch”? What precisely is it about the “touch” of a “woman” that lends her competency in these nebulous positions, that makes it difficult or impossible for a man to achieve the same?

…women are given an unfair advantage for acceptance into male-dominated roles,

Bullshit.

Additionally, there is a growing trend towards failing to teach children gender norms.

It’s about goddamn time, too, said the miserable girl-child whose brother got all the cool toys.

…and girls are given diggers to play with, and boys are given dolls. What good could possibly come from this?

What harm could come from it?

Why should we reject a model that has served us well for thousands of years…

Who has it served well? The women who were sold into domestic slavery to be lorded over by perfect strangers?

… and presumably evolved for a good reason?

That reason being the development of patriarchal religions that were enforced by violence. Submit or die. Truly a philosophy worthy of reverence.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

Let me answer in the spirit and within the guidelines of the Social Section. I would hate to step out of bounds.

The description @BlackSwanEffect gives us of gender norms is one concocted in the last 150 years. It is not an eternal dictum.

Now, if @BlackSwanEffect is agreeable, I would love to show off my gender non-conforming wardrobe.

Seek's avatar

^^ I’ve been DYING to see some of your pretties!

ETpro's avatar

Welcome to Fluther, @ BlackSwanEffect, and thanks for a great question. (End of friendly tone)

One size simply does not fit all. Doesn’t work in shoes or under-shorts. Doesn’t work in gender identity, either. There are as many adaptations to birth gender as there are people to adapt, and why should that threaten you?

The fact that primitive mankind did certain things is no indication those are the right things to do. More likely, the tribal warfare, my-god-is-better-than-your-god, witch doctors to treat illnesses, religious genocides, witch trials, inquisitions and superstitions of those times are a HORRIBLE idea in a time when we have nuclear and biological weapons enough to exterminate the entire human race.

We are on the cusp of moving from a tribal, insular set of discrete cultures to a global culture. This short video by Dr. Michio Kaku talks about the transition that’s beginning to happen. With nuclear and biological weapons around, and fossil fuels enough to launch a period of runaway global warming, we cannot survive as a species if we insist that the cave men knew best. We have to evolve into a global, inclusive, tolerant culture of humanity. Gender equality and gender identity freedom is just one part of that evolution, but an important part.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I have just the right sequined gown for you to try on.

ibstubro's avatar

So. If we keep up until “Non-traditional” is “traditional”, WHAT is “traditional”?

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

@BlackSwanEffect You wrote, “In more recent times, women also took on certain jobs that are better performed with a woman’s touch.” Would flower arranging fall under that category, because ikebana (flower arranging) is a high art in Japan, where I lived for many years. It was originally practiced by men in monasteries as a form of meditation.

I do wish you would supply a list of what tasks are proper for which gender.

And shall we start now to talk about gender queer?

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

In most cultures, throughout most of history, there have been well defined gender norms. Please, verify this with proper anthropological studies.

Men did the fighting, manual labour, and the running and organisation of their spheres in the community and wider political landscape. I like the use of the past tense in this sentence alluding to the notion that things are changing.

Women took care of children, their household, supported their men through difficult times, and gave balance to the hedonistic tendencies of men. This sentence leads me to believe you have not studied much anthropology or sociology. In hunter-gatherer societies, both genders shared all tasks surprisingly equally. I am also wondering why it is only the men who can display hedonistic tendencies. Aren’t women now and in the past capable of exuberance and heightened emotions?

In more recent times, women also took on certain jobs that are better performed with a woman’s touch. Here, we need a list of those jobs in order to evaluate your statement.

However over the last several years, concepts such as quotas and affirmative action have skewed the marketplace of skills so that women are given an unfair advantage for acceptance into male-dominated roles, and emasculated men are drafted into female-dominated roles. Again, we need a list of those male/female roles to speak intelligently about your statement. I find it offensive that a man must be emasculated to perform some certain task that you deem beneath his masculinity.

While of course if a woman is better at a certain role than a man (whether it be secretary or CEO) she should be given that role, surely intentionally selecting a worse applicant based on gender is destructive? I am unaware that women have been given preferential treatment in the marketplace. Indeed, evidence points to the opposite being the case. Were women given equal treatment, then federal, state, and local laws enforcing equal pay for equal work would not be necessary.

Additionally, there is a growing trend towards failing to teach children gender norms. Here once more, we need more concrete examples of those gender norms to better evaluate your assertion. I, for one, welcome the new freedom we are gaining from stale and wrong-minded ideas.

Pink and blue are out, and girls are given diggers to play with, and boys are given dolls. I had both actually. I am male, and I did not suffer from loss of gender identity by merely handling what you seem to suggest are feminine articles. This statement implies boys who play with dolls will have something magically rub off on them making them—dare I say it?—effeminate? The opposite being true for the girls. Tomboys must be a horror to your way of thinking.

What good could possibly come from this? I hope a lot of good comes from eradicating patriarchal pigheaded-ness.

Should we not be fighting against gender discrimination, rather than simply promoting a different form of it? How would you suggest we end discrimination?

Why should we reject a model that has served us well for thousands of years, and presumably evolved for a good reason? I offer that your presumption, as you call it, is false. The patriarchal system you revere is not that old really. It dates merely to the 19th century. It brought us untold suffering and hardship for the vast majority of humanity. We are only beginning to see the glimmers of hope in throwing it off.

Kardamom's avatar

I’m curious if the OP is playing devil’s advocate, for our benefit, just to get our hackles up. Otherwise, I can’t believe some of the preposterous wrong “facts” that he/she is stating.

Haleth's avatar

@ETpro That was a great link. Thanks for posting it!

ETpro's avatar

@Haleth I was just waiting for a good excuse to share that link.

Kardamom's avatar

^^ I bet you got a whole drawer full of that kind of stuff. Just sitting in a pretty jewelry box, just waiting to be taken out and shown : )

ETpro's avatar

^^ Guilty as charged. :-)

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Hawaii_Jake's avatar

I am answering in the spirit and guidelines of the Social Section.

@BlackSwanEffect Why are you silent? Why did you come and join and dump this thing in our laps only to leave?

Your first sentence is quite telling.

In most cultures, throughout most of history, there have been well defined gender norms.

The important word is “most.” You can’t say all, because you know damn good and well that’s not the case. History is full of examples contrary to your stupid ideas of gender norms.

You don’t even provide us with proper information about those gender norms. Instead, you rely on an all too vague notion that we will somehow understand.

Putting all that aside, I’d like to invite you over to play with my gowns. I have simple ones and glittery ones. I have a fuchsia mid-thigh number that is all frilly. Unless you’re as big as a whale, I’ll bet I’ve got something to fit. Regardless of that, we can paint faces. Makeup really is fun and can change the outlook you have on a whole day. It will perk up your spirits.

There. Did I break any of the egg shells I feel I’m walking on here?

Seek's avatar

I wanna play! Someone buy me a ticket to Hawaii!

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Oo! Doll, I bet you would fit that fuchsia number I’ve got.

Seek's avatar

Sparkles and fuschia and war paint, oh my!

LornaLove's avatar

I think real freedom is enjoying a role as you see it. Neither subscribing to non gender roles or traditional roles. I find both equally irritating.

Kardamom's avatar

Ohhhh let’s all go to Hawaii, it will be like we’re playing grownup Barbie! I’ve got a few numbers I’d like to bring for you all to try on : )

ibstubro's avatar

If I’M going to Hawaii, you’re going to have a hard time keeping clothes on me!

Kardamom's avatar

@ibstubro I don’t know, I’ve got this Kimono that I’ve been trying to get some fellow to wear for quite awhile, why not give it a go?

ibstubro's avatar

@Kardamom I have been to Hawaii once, and I was shorts and sandals the majority of the time.

However, if that amazing Thai restaurant is still there and you’re buying, you may dress me as you please for dinner!

And I had the most wonderful spring rolls at the Vietnamese place across the street from the Salvation Army store!

Kardamom's avatar

@ibstubro I love spring rolls!

glacial's avatar

So, I guess since we’re modding things for being off-topic in Social now, the inevitable food derail will be unacceptable? Hahaha.

ibstubro's avatar

I, too, love gender neutral spring rolls, @Kardamom. I’ve never found any to compare with the Vietnamese cafe in Hawaii.

now we’re good, @glacial

Kardamom's avatar

But we always derail with food

Seek's avatar

Once I was surprised by a Thai spring roll.

If you know what I mean…

No, seriously, I had a neighbor who was Thai, and sat in on eggroll making day. The stuff in the bowl looked awful.

Best eggrolls I’ve ever had. Wish I had written down the recipe. But, I was only 10 at the time.

glacial's avatar

@Kardamom That’s what I’m saying. ;)

“now we’re good, @glacial
@ibstubro By George, I think you’ve figured out how to stay alive on Fluther. ;)

ibstubro's avatar

Are you sure it wasn’t a cross dressing egg roll @Seek_Kolinahr?

Kardamom's avatar

Here I was with my mind in the gutter about @Seek_Kolinahr being surprised by an eggroll, I figured her hubby brought home some take out and wanted to surprise her that night.

ragingloli's avatar

The same question has been asked when slavery was abolished.

Skylight's avatar

Because the ‘gender norms’ developed in the first place are seriously flawed. They are limiting, oppressive, and a reflection of an unenlightened society. What the heck are we doing here if not to progress beyond limiting ways of defining ourselves and break out of our fear enough to celebrate greater potential? It surely cannot be just to ruin the planet.

augustlan's avatar

@glacial Nothing was removed for being off-topic, here. There were other reasons. :)

augustlan's avatar

Ah, that was marked incorrectly. Sorry about that. Error fixed.

Paradox25's avatar

Why should we reject a model that has served us well for thousands of years, and presumably evolved for a good reason? I’m kind of at a loss there, because nobody asks to be born into this world, let alone choose the sex they were born as. So let me guess, if I’m born a boy, and I’m not into cars, guns, hunting and sports does this mean that I should be ridiculed for this? What if, as a guy, I want to work at an office job in the IT field that I should simply reject this and be a mindless slave?

Your notion about something that has served us well for thousands of years doesn’t pass muster with me neither. I really do think we could had evolved much better if it wasn’t for the horrors of rigid traditionalism. Yes, we have survived under the culture of old, but barely. There were quite a few times in human history where we came close to wiping each other out. I propose rejecting a model that has barely served us for thousands of years, and replacing it with a better one.

ragingloli's avatar

It has not served you well at all.
A quick look at history will instantly shatter any such delusions.
Oppression, war, genocide.

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