Why do people consider slut shaming and victim blaming to be the same thing?

I don’t think shaming anyone is a bad thing. Everyone has the right to do what they will, but everyone else also has the right to free speech and their own opinion. I try not to judge other people, but some things are shameful for a reason. As a (former) sex addict, I can say, I’m not proud of the number of people I have slept with. My choices in that department had to do with filling a void (and I’m not talking about the one in my pants). Was that the right choice? No. Do I feel good about it? No. Did it make me feel good about myself? No. Being promiscuous is shameful because nothing good comes of it. If something that is bad for you is less appealing because people ‘shamed’ it, then in my opinion, that’s a great thing. Its every persons right to be promiscuous or not, but just because you can be doesn’t mean you should. Just because you CAN dress like you’re allergic to clothing doesn’t mean you SHOULD. Just because you CAN go out alone doesn’t mean you SHOULD. To a certain point, victims do put themselves in bad situations. I’ve been there too. And I wouldn’t have been a victim if I had been smart enough to avoid a situation I knew wasn’t in my best interest. Its not always the case, but I think some people (like me) take their freedoms too far and get hurt because of it. Shame is only part of your concience, really, helping someone hear it better can’t be that bad of a thing, even if it stings at first.

The slut shaming you are speaking about is saying that sexual assault on a woman is the victim’s fault. It is never the victim’s fault when there is sexual assault. Rape is wrong! And tehre is no ambiiguity there.

Cases like the Steubenville rape are cases where the victim gets blamed and a “boys will be boys” attitude excuses rape. Rape is not excusable.

Hygiene does not have any implicit racial or gender issues. However if a man is promiscuous there is no shame. If he is raped, no one would think that he brought it on himself by the clothes he wore or the lifestyle he lead. Therein lies the big difference.

I would never say that rape is the woman’s fault; no one ever deserves to be raped.

But at some point don’t we have to give the woman some level of responsibility as to what situations she puts herself in? For example, if a woman goes out by herself, gets wasted, and is walking around half naked, isn’t she clearly making herself a target? In a perfect world a person could go out and do those things and not get hurt (aside from the risk of alcohol poisoning) but we all know that those are stupid things to do.

@cutiepi92 Scores of completely sober women are raped in their own homes while wearing comfortable, but wholly unsexy, “around the house” clothing (and usually by someone they know).

@Darth_Algar but those arent the people I’m talking about. Plenty of situations where women are attacked are unavoidable. The situation I named was not one of them. That’s my point.

ETA: Which brings me back to what I said before, is there a line where responsibility partially goes to the woman? And as far as my original question is concerned, saying someone is a slut because of the way they dress and carry themselves is completely different from rape anyway…

Nope, @cutiepi92, it is not her responsibility to take the blame for being raped. Why don;t you blame the men? After all, all they have to do is go in private and whack off.

But wait! Rape is not about sex, rape is about power. Remember that, it’s about men that cannot abide a woman having the least amount of power. RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX.

@zenvelo regardless I feel that this is going away from my original point. My initial question is regarding slut shaming vs. victim blaming. Blaming a victim for getting raped is one thing, calling someone a slut is another

@cutiepi92 To bring my conversation back to your question, then, I am pointing out that “slut-shaming” and “blaming the victim” are very close to each other. The “slut walk” protests have been about rape victims being slut shamed. That is why I consider it wrong.

And who is to say that a particular woman’s dress or walk or behavior are particularly “slutty”? A woman is entitled to be in control of her own sexuality and to enjoy it.

People who criticize other women for being “slutty” are communicating to me that they are ashamed of their own sexuality. Sexuality is a gift of the Divine, it is to be enjoyed and celebrated, not hidden away as a dirty secret.

@cutiepi92, no, it is not the woman’s fault she was raped, no matter what she was wearing or where she was walking. It is the rapist’s fault for raping her. The rapist caused the rape. Her clothes didn’t cause the rape. Rapists cause rape.

I know from the years my daughters took martial arts classes, they were told to always be aware of their surroundings, and to never put themselves in risky situations. This is pretty much what the gal in the video was saying.

Edit: And she also said that if a gal is drunk, alone, showing off her hiney, and letting some (probably drunk) guy put his hands all over her, there’s every chance she could end up in an unwanted sexual encounter. She said it doesn’t mean it’s OK if he rapes her. Nevertheless, in my opinion this is very often how these things go.

So, in her words and in mine: “Ladies, don’t be stupid!!” You can’t control other people, but you can control yourself!

The older I get the more I realize that I don’t have the authority to judge anyone except myself. There are reasons why people behave the way they do and it really isn’t any of my business.

@cutiepi92 Of course those aren’t the women you’re talking about. Those women did nothing to cause their rape. But the woman who dares goes out of the house without a guardian, or who dresses in a way that shows confidence in her body well…..she mighta been kinda asking for it right?

@Darth_Algar putting words in my mouth. cute.

@snowberry my viewpoint exactly.

like I said before, everyone has the right to do whatever they want, but I also feel like every action has certain connotations and therefore people also have the right to form their own opinions. Never is rape ok, but I also don’t think women should just walk around without common sense.

i wonder how many commenters actually watched the video in my original post….

@cutiepi92 I’m putting words in your mouth? Really? ‘Cause I thought I was being sarcastic.

Nice video, thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed the speakers pov and agreed with her.

@cutiepi92 , I didn’t watch the video originally (not a lot of data on my phone) but just now I did watch the first few minutes and agree largely with this woman as well.
While you may not be ASKING to get raped, you are responsible for your decisions, and your decisions may put you in a situation where rape is more of a threat. Your own well being is your responsibility, and if there is a lack of awareness there, then yes. You put yourself into that situation. Did you deserve to get raped? No. But had you made better choices, well, it might not have happened. Doesn’t mean you have to act paranoid but be smart about life for goodness sake!!

And it obviously was not an easy video for her to make. She had to stop to compose herself when she talked about her own experience. She’s a brave and honorable lady, who has a great message.

Question: if someone leaves their window open at night and someone else decides to cut through the window screen, enter the house, murder them and steal their property is the resident responsible for putting themselves in a position to be murdered and robbed?

Pah! I couldn’t watch this video. ‘Whore’. A whore gets paid for sex by making an honest transaction with a guy wants to have sex and pay. Who are you or anyone to decide which is whore behavior? This is what is wrong with society today. Judging people on how much make up you wear? Or wearing what you want? How can you mix that up with acting like a ‘fool’.

Who are you or anyone for that matter including this condescending arbitrary person who got 59 views on YouTube to determine who is a slut?

@Darth_Algar Nothing hard to understand about this. If I lived in a high crime area, I would NEVER leave a window open with just a screen to “protect” me. And no matter where I lived, I for sure wouldn’t be able to lie down and rest knowing it was open like that, and knowing the sorts of people who roam around looking for opportunities. It doesn’t mean the homeowner is at fault, but if they leave the window open (whether they forgot or not), stuff can and does often happen.

That is not the same as a woman who deliberately chooses to expose herself to people and situations that put her at risk.

@snowberry The question wasn’t what you would do, the question was is the resident responsible.

@emjay “While you may not be ASKING to get raped, you are responsible for your decisions, and your decisions may put you in a situation where rape is more of a threat.”

Rapists are responsible for their decisions, too. Why is like 99% of the conversation about rape always about the victim and their decisions, and never about the rapist and their decisions? A rapist decides to attack somebody and have sex with them against their will. There’s a hell of a lot more intent and decision-making behind that than there is in a victim’s choices on the night they get raped.

Rape isn’t like getting struck by lightening; it’s like getting hit by a car. It’s not a random force of nature where the only way to prevent it is to take safety precautions. A person, who is also fully capable of making decisions, is driving the car or raping the victim. It’s a pre-meditated violent crime where one person overpowers another. In a hit-and-run accident, we don’t blame the pedestrian for getting hit by a car, because the negligent driver did the violence there.

Why do we go to such lengths to blame the victim for a rape? What makes it so different from other types of violent crime? Adding a caveat or a “but” or a what-if to a statement that blames the victim, is still blaming the victim. We need to hold rapists responsible for rape. Currently, we’re doing an abysmal job of that. Men need to be just as involved in preventing rape as women. Every new driver is taught how to watch the road so they don’t hit someone.

Men learn almost nothing about preventing rape, including basics like seeing women as equals and human beings. This leads to stuff like seemingly normal young men teaming up to abuse a classmate, for instance. Men need to hear messages about not raping as often as women hear messages about not getting raped. And all that safety stuff women learn? Men should know about it too, so they can stand up and protect the women in their lives.

Decisions. Men can make them, too.

@Haleth Well fucking said. The only person who bears any responsibility is the one who makes the decision to rape. I don’t care what the woman is wearing, how much she’s had to drink or how flirty she might have been. The rapist is not an animal acting on instinct, he makes the conscious choice to rape.

@Haleth , while that is true, you can’t control the actions of other people. Did you miss the part where I said I’d been raped? I’m not making blanket statements about all rape… I’m mostly speaking from my own experience, and not in any way saying that the blame falls to the victim. However, situational awareness is something women HAVE to have. In my mind, the part where the rapist is guilty is obvious. But I’m not the rapist. I’m the victim. And as a victim, I control what I do. How is there anything wrong with promoting safety?

@Darth_Algar I answered your question. “It doesn’t mean the homeowner is at fault, but if they leave the window open (whether they forgot or not), stuff can and does often happen.” So no, it’s not their fault, and yes, it’s their responsibility to lock up.

@snowberry Are they responsible for putting themselves in a position to be murdered or not? It’s a simple question. I can’t tell if you’re trying to dance around it or just over-complicating it.

@emjay There’s a world of difference between promoting safety and basically saying “they’re responsible for it because they were being a slut”.

@Darth_Algar Unfortunately answers to life rarely come out in black and white, and my answer stands just as it is. We can agree to disagree. Have a nice day.

@Darth_Algar , but that’s NOT what I said, so…

@emjay No, it isn’t literally what you said, but it is the implication of what you said.

@snowberry I can neither agree nor disagree with you as you’ve said nothing to agree or disagree with. You’ve answered a question I did not ask while avoiding the question that I did ask.

Slut-shaming and victim-blaming are the same because they both assign guilt. The only difference is that slut-shaming is a specific deviation from specific social norms, where as victim-blaming is much more broad that may at times incorporate slut-shaming as an argument to blame rape victims.

I don’t think there is such a thing as a victim at all since it always takes two people to tango and as long as the offender and “victim” are equally responsible for their choices/actions, they cancel each other out, making no one at fault. Things are just the way they’re. That, in my opinion, is the only accurate description.

@tomathon That’s a disgusting answer, you have just blamed every single sexual assault victim ever. Including he grandmother safe in her home who gets raped by an intruder that forcibly breaks into the home.

Correct.

What people are forgetting is that a rapist, like any other sociopath, is looking for a victim. Generally an easy victim. The more drunk or skimpy your clothes, or the girl wandering along outside smoking alone, the easier the prey.

The point is, don’t make yourself easy prey for these freaks of nature.

Unfortunately @zenvelo, a lot of elderly people are alone a lot and defenseless, again, easy prey for psycho’s. Although @tomathon seems to assume complacency on the part of the elderly or defenseless, when I’m sure they’d prefer to be secure and safe. Unfortunately American society finds our elderly easily disposable, leaving the alone or in the care of questionable staff at nursing facilities, etc… I hate that about us.

@KNOWITALL Relative few rapes are committed by someone who’s going out looking for someone drunk and/or skimpily dressed to rape. In fact the majority of rapes are committed in an environment the victim knows and feels safe in and by someone the victim knows and usually trusts.

@Darth_Algar Yeah, unfortunately I know that all too well honey. But I’ve also been around a lot of women who were stalked by predators just for being pretty and drunk.

@Darth_Algar but I’m not even talking about the “majority” where people are in a safe environment and what not. I have said this before. What about that do you not understand? I’m just saying that there are situations where people can paint themselves as easier targets when they have the choice not to.

No one here is saying that rape isn’t bad; the reason no one really talks about the rapist is because it’s automatically understood that they are wrong. But there are still some steps that women should take when they are going out in order to keep themselves safe®. This isn’t about generalizing all situations.

@cutiepi92 No, you’re not just talking about women taking steps to make themselves safer. You’re effectively placing responsibility on the “sluts” for being raped. The language you use makes your intent clear.

again, the putting words in my mouth. not that cute.

It’s not fully placing responsibility on those people. It’s saying “take whatever semblance of power you have over yourself and don’t put make yourself even MORE of a victim than you already are”. It’s called RISK. Rape is not the victim’s fault, but that does not mean that people can act naively. Just as in the “breaking in” example. I lock my doors and window all the time. Because I don’t someone to break in. That simple. If you don’t take precautions, something is more likely to happen to you. Can everything be prevented? NO that is life. I might get jumped walking down the street in broad daylight. However, I also know not to walk in the city at night by myself because it increases my chances. It would not be my fault if I got attacked in either situation, but best believe my mother would be pissed if I got jumped at night because I was the one that put myself in a situation that I KNEW wasn’t that safe.

Again, I have not put words into your mouth. Unless you’re going to claim that you haven’t used words like “slut” several times in this thread.

@cutiepi92 I know what you mean and I completely agree, sweetie. Been there, done that. I wasn’t even supposed to go to Walmart after dark by myself per my gma.

@darth When you’ve been assaulted, it triggers something to see girls walking around half-naked without a care in the world. It triggers my fear for them, after experiencing something like that you’re not the same. So even if you don’t get it, try to understand from our pov.

And you think slut shaming is the best way to express this fear for them? Seriously?

@Darth_Algar No did I say that? I may feel that way sometimes but I do not say it out loud to the girl. Now my niece and I have had a few talks and I scared the crap out of her when she and her little girlfriends were letting it all hang out in booty shorts at age 12 and going to the park after dark.

Little girls don’t know that a full grown man or two can do anything they want, but I made it very clear. I wish someone had scared me like that when I was younger, maybe then I wouldn’t have learned the hard way.

@Darth_Algar Let’s think about it this way, not about rape, but something else. If I go to the bank and come out with a big wad of cash in my hand and start walking down the street with it, thumbing through the 100’s and 50’s as I go, would you think I’ve lost my mind? Would you think I’m inviting a mugging? Most sane people would, including the police department, the criminals, and everyone else. This would be an exceptionally stupid thing to do in many large cities, but it’s done every day all over the place in Japan.

My point? Part of it is about culture. What is considered to be an invitation in one culture is not even a consideration in another, and we must take that into account when we think about how to keep ourselves safe.

Have you personally ever been raped? I have. @KNOWITALL says she has. So has the gal in the video, and so have a lot of the rest of us. I totally agree that it is NEVER EVER the victim’s fault, just like quite a few others have said. But I also would NEVER EVER encourage a woman to put herself in a position to be hurt, especially if she’s going to be hanging out with people with impaired thinking such as drunks. (Remember, many drunks don’t hear or don’t care or misinterpret a woman’s pleas to “stop!”)

Every self defense class I’ve ever heard of encourages people to not put themselves in a position to become a victim, and that means to be aware of the triggers of your potential attackers, your behavior, your surroundings, and how you present yourself to others (which includes what you are wearing). It’s a package deal, and that’s the point we’re trying to make with you.

I do not think any police department would blame a rape victim, nor would I, or anyone else here on Fluther.

We are also making a clear distinction between women who have been raped by people they know, while wearing completely unsexy clothing, and women who go out to get drunk alone while half dressed.

@snowberry Agreed. I just let a lnog-term male friend sleep off a drinking night at our duplex, I had no idea he intended to come creeping in the wee hours. My door was shut but not locked.

Again, the vile, moralizing shit being said here is far different from merely promoting safety. If promoting safety was the only intent here words like “slut”, “shaming”, “whore” (in the case of the video posted) would not be thrown around. Try to spin it how you want but as I said before: the language gives away the intent (as well as further enables rapists).

There is a very clear difference between following common sense safety rules, which by the way apply to both males and females, and suggesting a woman who wears a lot of make up and dresses in skimpy clothing is putting herself at risk to be raped.

Being careful as I said earlier is important to any person, older, younger, female and male. Simply because there is a lot of aggression out there and unstable people. So a guy on the prowl or female on the prowl can see a victim who is in a vulnerable position (walking alone in a dark street for example) and use that vulnerability to pounce.

Another example (so as to rule out the idea that this is a sexist idea, of which this question reeks of). Say for example a guy gets hopelessly drunk in a bar and a hustler female is after his wallet. He has now become a vulnerable victim.

Let’s look at it in that light. A guy who wears a vest to show off his muscles and tight shorts is then looking to get hustled?

A girl in a club wearing make up and skimpy clothing is looking to get raped?

It is SO strange to see such archaic ideas prevail today that rape and sexual assault is a crime of lust. It is a crime of aggression and power.

Some of the comments were insinuating that a girl who dresses a certain way etc., is looking for sex? Perhaps she is, perhaps she is not. That occurs in equal measures. If they want sex and find it, good for them.

The saddest part of this whole question is the obvious as well as the usual. FEMALES are the one’s that condemn and bad mouth each other. Instead of fighting for each other and fighting for their own rights. I have nothing but contempt for females who sit back and call other women sluts.

@LornaLove and @KNOWITALL “I just let a lnog-term male friend sleep off a drinking night at our duplex, I had no idea he intended to come creeping in the wee hours. My door was shut but not locked.”

So Lorna, are you saying that this inebriated man who crept into her room was really all about aggression and power? Knowitall, what do you say?

@snowberry It is very common for drunk people to thing they are extremely attractive to others, and for them to become very affectionate. Don’t confuse a wandering drunk with a rapist. Rape is about power, not sex.

It would be a different story if the drunk friend had assaulted @KNOWITALL.

@snowberry So, you think he was so turned on by her that he lost all sense of moral right and wrong? He was so horny he lost all idea of the fact that he cannot just take what he wants? Do you not think he already had faulty wiring and that he understands that he can creep in and take what he wants? If that is your premise then all horny men who are drunk creep through windows to rape women? Therefore we must all close our windows when there are drunk men around?

Taking what you want, violating boundaries both physical and emotional is not an act of violence?

I do realize people put themselves in vulnerable situations, I already said that. I am not sure how calling women sluts and whores is helpful in stopping violent crime against them.

Edited:
Oh, my @LornaLove, You really are just looking to fight someone, aren’t you?

Since drunk people don’t go around with blinking trouble lights indicating they have faulty wiring, it’s best in my opinion to assume that they could be, and protect yourself. By the way, what do you do in situations like this?

Of course it’s an act of violence! Rape is ALWAYS an act of violence!

I am not sure how calling women sluts and whores is helpful in stopping violent crime against them. I never ever said that? Why do you keep saying I did?

Honestly, can’t you find something else to take offense about? What is the big deal?

@All That friend did rape me that night. He wanted me & took me while vulnerable so yes it was opportunity & aggressio

@snowberry Did you not look at the video? That was the whole basis of it. That was not directed at you. I was relating to the video. Did you not see the video was so offensive to women? I will always fight for women. So should you.

I have better things to do than fight with people on the net. I have said my point. If people think that women deserve to be treated like nothing because of how they dress and wear makeup then this is not a forum for me. I’m out

@LornaLove Sorry you can’t hear me. Yes I watched the entire video, and I thought it was spot on.

I’m not going to watch the video again, but I do remember her speaking about how unsafe it is for a woman to choose to dress like a slut/whore (she described what that looks like) and then choose to get drunk and be alone in a bar, etc.

She did not at any time say that women who do such things __were__ sluts or whores. There is a distinct difference, and I think you missed her entire point. That’s fine with me. If you want to, keep going around telling women to wear as few clothes as possible when out in public, alone and drunk. If that works for you, I’m sure you’ll have plenty of company. Me, I’ll continue to support the victims of sex slavery, rape, and domestic violence just as I always have.

Didn’t your mama ever tell you not to “should” on other people?

How in the blue fuck is calling some rape victims “whores”/“sluts” (oh, excuse me, “acting like whores/sluts”) supporting them?

@snowberry I do hear you loud and clear. To you a woman who dresses the way she pleases which may include very little, is not a victim of a violent crime (called rape) but you support the victims of sex slavery, rape (?) and domestic violence. Somehow they are not responsible for the crime against them? In this argument they are two separate people it appears.

1. Criminology does recognize a victim mentality. That of placing oneself in vulnerable situations that can lead to crimes against them. This I acknowledged.

2. I can’t see how a woman wearing a low cut top causes a violent crime against them. (Which then basis that assumption that men are animals really, cannot hold back and so give that whore what she deserves?.)

Anyway you believe that, I accept it. The video said….‘if women choose to act like sluts/whores and wear loads of makeup…

I clicked off at that point, so yeah maybe I did miss the point.

I guess men are allowed to get drunk then? Just wondering and at this point kind of know your answer.

I certainly never listened to my ‘mama’ I formed my own opinions based on years of study and life experience

@LornaLove @Darth_Algar I get the message. You’re right, I’m wrong, and that’s it!

I suspect neither one of you watched the entire video, and yet Lorna especially has launched this massive attack. That indicates to me a massive agenda, and nothing is going to stand in your way… , You two have twisted everything I’ve said, In addition you’ve added lots and lots of emotionally laden rhetoric (”...men aren’t allowed to get drunk” – what’s that all about?), It’s just silly.

You win.

@snowberry I think no one has won when incorrect thinking prevails. I personally have always liked you @snowberry I certainly was not trying to “fight” I was merely taking on your opinions. As they were mixed. Being vulnerable I said earlier is an issue. I have said that a few times. (Where you then said I was looking for a fight with anybody?).

My stance is that women get blamed all the time. It’s nothing new.

“Ladies, don’t be stupid!!” You can’t control other people, but you can control yourself!

Tell that to a girl who has been raped.

So Lorna, are you saying that this inebriated man who crept into her room was really all about aggression and power? Knowitall, what do you say?

I hope so, if not then men are primal apes?

I’m not going to watch the video again, but I do remember her speaking about how unsafe it is for a woman to choose to dress like a slut/whore (she described what that looks like) and then choose to get drunk and be alone in a bar, etc.

That is where my comment came from, I asked then why is it Okay for men to be?

That’s fine with me. If you want to, keep going around telling women to wear as few clothes as possible when out in public, alone and drunk. If that works for you

Women should be able to go anywhere anyhow and not be raped. Just as men should be able to go anywhere anyhow and not be a subject of violence.

I don’t tell women how to dress. They choose to and should have that right. I don’t particularly like women dressed in a certain way but that is their choice. I certainly don’t expect them to be raped for it.

I think a man or a woman who is raped should be given counselling and care they should not be told how they were responsible for it in terms of what they wore. They could be advised though on avoiding certain situations, like drunk people etc., again it is the age old story it turns out that it was the woman’s fault.

@snowberry No, I did not watch the entire video. I do not need to when the person’s “blame the victim” mentality shines through clear as day within the first few moments. In the first couple of minutes she all but says “the rape is their fault for acting like whores”. Anyone who claims to want to help women in regards to rape would do well to lay off the judgments, lay off the condescension and employ a little more compassion.

No one has twisted your words here. I suspect you’re crying about us “twisting your words” because you can’t defend your arguments.

LOL all this, and neither one of you know what you’re talking about!

Good rebuttal.

@zenvelo Excitable boy they all said….