Do you believe that attaining pleasure and happiness are the only things which give life any intrinsic value?

I don’t think hedonism is where it’s at. I’d much rather share pleasure with another. That fulfills me.

If you consider the Buddhist concept of eliminating all desire, desire equals want and unfulfilled wants can contribute to unhappiness. Eliminate desire and you eliminate unfulfilled wants and the true Buddhist focuses on what they have and appreciates the things they have and the things and people around them and that facilitates their true happiness.

Happy people are happy because they appreciate what they have over what they don’t have.

The problem, as Buddhism sees it, is that our happiness is contingent on having our circumstances arranged according to our liking. When things suit us, we’re happy; when things don’t suit us, we’re unhappy. Desire is the result. It’s the craving for circumstances that are more to our liking.

So part of the problem is that there’s a whole range of experience that we have an active distaste for—an aversion to. When these things come up they block happiness, and desire sets in for those things to go away and for better things to return.

Ending desire involves coming to grips with some basic aspects of reality. One is that those things that we have an aversion to are an integral part of life and have their own beauty, and even their own potential for joy. The composer John Cage once said, “The first question I ask myself when something doesn’t seem to be beautiful is why do I think it’s not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason.” When you allow yourself to stop pushing against these experiences, let them in, you often discover their intrinsic beauty and see that they’re not really an impediment to happiness.

Hand in hand with that is the realization that the circumstances that are to our liking simply can’t stay around. They come and they go, and there’s really nothing we can do to change that. Taken together, both of these realizations suggest another route to happiness than the “desire” route: Just embrace life’s pageant, swallowing it whole rather than picking through it for the bits we like.

Awhile back I lost a cat that I loved dearly. I spent a long night lying on the floor beside him as he slipped further into unconsciousness. I had my fingers on his heart as it made its last flutters. During that time, which seemed like a perfect occasion for unhappiness, what I actually felt was an intense gratitude and joy. That joy came from not struggling against this loss, but getting beyond my aversion down to the beauty and intimacy of that moment. I criedtorrents, but the tears weren’t at all incompatible with the joy.

By the same token, I absolutely love my new dog. We have a great time together. But not a day goes by that I don’t reflect on the fact that some years down the road I’ll be lying on the floor beside him, too. That realization doesn’t in any way detract from the happiness I have in being with him now; in fact, it intensifies it.

Desire is just an unnecessary friction that gets in the way of drinking life in deeply.

Speaking as a guy, yes.

Having purpose would be important

What @thorninmud said and also, I have come to believe that fulfilling work and connection to people/a community give life intrinsic value. Having lost many of the things that I held dearest in life in the past few years, I am struggling to embrace pain and pleasure as less important than equanimity.

I agree with @thorninmud as well, and I have been sorely challenged this last 14–15 months in the fine art of learning to live with uncertainty after many years of peace and contentment and “security.” I am totally good with holding on loosely, yet enjoying people and animals and the transient nature of all things, but…I am not good with losing my financial solvency and independence this past year.
“Purpose” is ever changing, not static and contentment is the closest we can come to anything resembling a permanent state of “happiness.”

Setting and achieving goals, though it may bring struggle, are things that bring me happiness. But yes, striving to be happy is an ongoing need in my life.

Some people argue that even seemingly altruistic acts are, in a way, selfish, because people do them to feel good about themselves. To an extent I think that’s true – nobody does anything if they are not motivated to do it, and that motivation stems from the belief that something favorable, from their point of view, will happen if they do that thing. I guess in that context, you could say that yes, attaining happiness is the only thing that is worthwhile. It’s just lucky that we humans attain happiness through many means – and many of those means involve caring for one another.

The pursuit of pleasure is indicative of mankind. Pleasure is the most intrinsic of value for man in his natural state. If something is not done by an individual it is because they perceive or know it will produce pleasurable effects; loss of money, sex, power, influence, sex, respect, sex, freedom, sex, etc. People can be weaned off that teat but they usually don’t like the method other than guns in the hands of those who will force them not to act on their craving.

I always thought it was the pursuit of money. I can do without power, influence, fame, booze and drugs. Money buys security, comfort, possessions, travel, good food and shiny new things. I suppose if I had ever been short of love or sex, or perhaps if I didn’t have a family, I would yearn for those things, or if I were in pain or had some physical problems, I would yearn for relief – but not having had that experience, I can’t relate.

Living a life with no money or desires, giving service to others, just wouldn’t float my boat. It isn’t that I don’t care about other people – but I have been too busy attending to my needs and the needs of my children, my sisters, nieces, nephews and parents to really think of anyone beyond that.

@Skaggfacemutt No shame it that. I too loved having money, not for status or prestige or to puff up my ego. Not for jewelery or designer clothes or status vehicles, .phooey on that crap, but because it brought me peace of mind, freedom to do what I wanted, and yes, good food, travel and a nice, aesthetic environment, not pricey, but creative, colorful and best of all…I was FREE to say ” take this job and shove it” if something wasn’t working out for me.

Money is freedom, pure and simple, though some think it is WHO they are, “buy” into a self image. The greatest joy money brought me was freedom, to be exactly who I am, and to have TIME to appreciate life without strife.

@Paradox25: “I can’t help but correlate happiness with pleasure, and I have considered that we all have different ideas on what would give us pleasure. There are various types of pleasures too, such as the relief of pain or ending of a miserable situation for example.”

I think I understand what you’re saying here. But I think there is something else besides pleasure (I think). Nobody wants to be in pain all the time, or be unable to sleep. I had never expected that my body would start systematically falling apart once I turned 40. But it is. And my struggles with frustration and “why me” have slowly given way to something else. When I wake up with a new pain, or the room is suddenly spinning and won’t stop – I could say “NO! I do not want this!” and wish that I had a different body or that things were different. But things are not different. They are exactly the way they are.

Knowing that things are allows me to drop my desires for things to be a certain way. I can observe the new pain and go, “Hmmm…what is this?” Not “what does this mean? I’m dying!”, but I’m able to explore whatever is happening right now with a curiosity. Slowly, I’m able to approach things with more of a, “aahhh, this!” This is happening right now. And now this.

I’m not sure I’m describing this clearly. But there is another way. I have spent a large part of my life trying to listening to desire only to learn that it’s a bait-and-switch. And the flip side is that I had not learned my lesson, and continued to listen to that same voice when it told me what not to want. My quest for happiness has led to futile attempts to hold onto things that made me happy (crushing them and watching them slip away in the process), and spending the remaining time worrying about unhappiness and how to avoid that. The desire for happiness has led to increased unhappiness. And fear/aversion of being unhappy has also led to my unhappiness. What if it’s possible to just be open to what happens and find some nugget of beauty in whatever it is that happens?

@Coloma I wish I could give you a “great answer” twice for that one. Money IS freedom. Without it you can’t ever be free or feel secure. And security is a hundred times more important when you have children, because then you can’t be secure unless they are secure also.

And yes, it’s not about having a Jaguar in the garage, or a room full of expensive electronic gadgets (that will be lining your garbage can in 6 months). It is the security of knowing that you and your loved ones won’t be without an adequate roof over their heads, or food, or medical attention if needed. And it’s a plus if you have enough to enjoy nice outings together. A cruise around the world isn’t necessary, but a nice family jaunt to Disneyland would be nice.

These were all good responses here, but a few of them really stuck out to me.

@hominid The problem is that tolerance or making the best of a situation is not happiness in itself, whether we can control what’s happening to us or not. I live with chronic and horrible headaches, and no matter how much I’ve tried to make the most of this, this is simply one of those issues where there’s just no getting around the fact that I absolutely hate living this way. After forty years I think it’s safe for me to proclaim that it’s true. Yes, I’ve attempted to make the best of this situation, but even this isn’t true happiness, just merely tolerance. Some people can handle situations like this better than me I suppose, and maybe even much worse (or at least appear to), but this just adds to the pain, and doesn’t negate me main point being that happiness is not something one can describe in words, but rather it just either is or isn’t, and you either feel it or you don’t. I also believe that we’re all different, and have different requisites which are required in order for each of us to be happy.

Don’t take my response as criticism towards yours, because it’s not, and I thought it was a good one. I guess I’m just trying to figure out how one can make themselves happy or appreciative with what they have when it appears to me that happiness is something that can not be learned or practiced, but is simply either felt or not. This should be especially true if behavior determinism has any real truth to it. It seems the free will argument would oppose my arguments more than behavior determinism would, but even then only to a limited extent in my opinion.

@Mariah wrote “Some people argue that even seemingly altruistic acts are, in a way, selfish, because people do them to feel good about themselves. To an extent I think that’s true – nobody does anything if they are not motivated to do it, and that motivation stems from the belief that something favorable, from their point of view, will happen if they do that thing. I guess in that context, you could say that yes, attaining happiness is the only thing that is worthwhile. It’s just lucky that we humans attain happiness through many means – and many of those means involve caring for one another”.

I’m guessing that this version of selfishness beats the Ayn Rand type. My guess is there has to be some point where the buck stops, and in the end there’s no realistic way to get around the selfishness argument. I’ve always stated myself that motivation is the most important decision maker in our lives, and is ultimately what determines whether we’ll be successful at achieving a goal or not. In fact I believe that motivation is a million times more important than confidence, and even self-esteem. In fact I don’t even believe it’s possible for the most part to feel the latter two, or have them be factors in our success, without motivation.

@thorninmud I thought you had made a great response here, and I can identify with your point about the loss of a cherished pet. When my last two cats died within a short time frame of each other I was depressed, and at the time I had decided that I would never get another pet again. It was a Sunday before work, and my cat of nearly twenty years was dying of cancer, but still able to reasonably function, and I held off on having her put to sleep for as long as I could. Ironically though, all of a sudden on a Sunday of all days, she got really bad and couldn’t walk anymore, and started crying. It was then that we decided to make an emergency trip to the nearest vet that was open that day, more than thirty miles away, and have her put asleep. It was the longest forty five minute drive of my life. When we got there, before I handed the vet the carrier my cat was in, she (the cat) licked my hand and meowed at me. I can’t write anymore about it. I had a similar experience with one of my dogs as a child too.

A stray orange female kitten would always follow me outside my house when I came home from work. Eventually I had decided to take her in after feeding it. I named her Peaches, and she’s the cat on the right in my avatar. After three years a lady from work rescued a baby male kitten from an abusive household where a part of the kitten’s right ear was cut off. I thought I’d get Peaches a companion since I had read that cats usually prefer some company, and I was away a lot. My last two cats kept each other company too. I named him Vincent, he’s on the left in my avatar. Peaches adopted Vince and took care of him like she was his mother. I guess I’m grateful for the new memories myself, though I’ve never forgotten about my old memories either.

@Paradox25: “Some people can handle situations like this better than me I suppose, and maybe even much worse (or at least appear to), but this just adds to the pain, and doesn’t negate my main point being that happiness is not something one can describe in words, but rather it just either is or isn’t, and you either feel it or you don’t.”

I think you’re right about happiness. I have no idea what it is, really. I’m not saying that I do not experience sensations or emotions that are better than others – it’s just that I am not comfortable declaring that x is happiness. But for now, I’ll ignore this fact.

@Paradox25: “I also believe that we’re all different, and have different requisites which are required in order for each of us to be happy.”

I agree with this. But it seems that while we all may have different requisites, we are not often aware of these requisites. And we are often thoroughly confused about what will (and can) bring us happiness in both the long and short term.

@Paradox25: “Don’t take my response as criticism towards yours, because it’s not, and I thought it was a good one.”

I didn’t, although reading back through my response is tough. Severe lack of sleep and a keyboard do not make for lucid writing. This morning will be no different…

@Paradox25: “I guess I’m just trying to figure out how one can make themselves happy or appreciative with what they have when it appears to me that happiness is something that can not be learned or practiced, but is simply either felt or not.”

Frustration may be something that appears as an emotion in our brain, but we know that there are things that can prime our brain to generate frustration more often. For example, for many years, if someone was driving really slowly in front of me, I would get very angry. I might swear at them and sit there worrying about how this will affect the rest of my day. I was convinced that they were trying to make me late, and I might have even wished them death.

But a few years ago, I tried a simple experiment. If someone pulled out in front of me and went 10 miles under the speed limit, I would imagine a story about this person. Maybe, he is suffering from cancer and just lost his wife the day before. Why not? I was already assuming so much about this person. The sad story was just as likely as my other story. But the shift in my experience while driving behind this person was genuine. It was more than just a matter of tolerance (I believe). The lack of anger and frustration made room for something else, and in that space is where I think I can find something close to resembling happiness.

Years after that experiment, I don’t necessarily make up sob stories about people who are in my way. I don’t think I need to any longer. I think we are habitual creatures. Anger leads to more capacity for anger, just as working muscles leads to stronger muscles. The brain, so it seems to me, does what it does. But we can exercise it in ways that make certain things more likely and others less likely. (Note: I’m not proposing “free will” in the traditional sense here, because the brain itself is the source of the thoughts and emotions and motivations that can decide to take these actions to work on the brain.)

So what if I were to spread this to other parts of my life? In some respects, I have. What if my compassion spreads to myself? What if I see thoughts and emotions as just another input, and can see when they “skip” or repeat? Is it possible to see my desire to be “happy” as just another obstacle? I know I can’t trust this desire. I know that it is the source of much of my misery. What if I can just open up more spaces, rather than closing them off, and just see what happens here?

I suppose all I am saying is that I catch glimpses of something other than just “I want this” or “I don’t want this”. This is a game that I am done playing. The game is rigged from the start because I have very little control over anything, I am likely wrong about what will bring happiness and what will not, getting what I “want” can be as painful as receiving what don’t want, and some of my most pleasurable experiences have been in situations that I never have imagined even existed.

Edit: Seriously. Sorry for the wall of nonsense text. I’m not sure I was even semi-conscious when I just wrote this.