Social Question

Dan_Lyons's avatar

Do you think that prison rape is a form of cruel and unusual punishment?

Asked by Dan_Lyons (5321 points ) 1 month ago

Shouldn’t our penal system(s) be cleaned up and rape be removed from within the walls?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

58 Answers

longgone's avatar

I’m amazed people think otherwise.

zenvelo's avatar

It isn’t a form of punishment in an dog itself, but it is a byproduct of imprisonment and until it is addressed makes prison itself brutally cruel.

JLeslie's avatar

The only exception would be if they are rapist or child molesters themselves.

ragingloli's avatar

Yes. No exceptions.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

Why would that be an exception?

ragingloli's avatar

@Darth_Algar
Because being able to tell the difference between justice and vengeance is a skill only few actually have.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

I can’t believe it but I actually agree with both @ragingloli & @Darth_Algar

Why do you want anyone raped in prison @JLeslie?

filmfann's avatar

The fact that this happens in American prisons is an example that this country is not entirely civilized.

GloPro's avatar

No. I think it is a form of assault. How to prevent it in overcrowded prisons isn’t an easy answer.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

When one MAKES THE DECISION to cross the line into illegal behavior one needs to be prepared for the possibility that anything might happen as a result.

These possibilities include everything from vigilante justice to all manner of horrors inflicted by the perpetually incarcerated.

A potential male perpertrator might take some comfort in the classic feminist idea that the rape of males in prison is some sort of anomaly (compared to the rape of women by men on the outside which as an indisputable matter of course in life).

To do so would be a mistake. No number of radicals insisting that male on male rape is rare at best makes you safe once inside prison walls. Things, in reality, could get ugly right quick.

If prison abuse, quick and dirty justice from a law abiding citizen, or a gang of plunger happy cops isn’t your cup of tea I strongly recommend that you chose to restrain your behaviors to those within the bounds of the law.

Your asshole and dignity will thank you.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

@SecondHandStoke that is utter nonsense. On top of which are you really claiming rape of women is an indisputable fact of life?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@SecondHandStoke

I love how you completely contradict yourself within a single post.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Dan_Lyons what I mean is the radical idea that all men are potential rapists. But as far as the radicals are concerned the only rapes that should be considered are those committed man on woman, not so much what we see in prison.

@Darth_Algar You… I don’t follow.

Enlighten me.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

And yet @SecondHandStoke all men are not potential rapists. Only those who can so easily entertain the idea of rape, as you appear to be doing. hmmmmmmmmmm

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Dan_Lyons Of course not all men are potential rapists. I was speaking about the point of view of at least one radical group of which I can never be a member.

The Idea of rape. Well, it isn’t really by thing but for the sake of argument I’m thinking of raping a number of various females right now (no men, because that doesn’t count of course).

Dan_Lyons's avatar

@SecondHandStoke And yet you said, ”what I mean is the radical idea that all men are potential rapists.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of argument.

linguaphile's avatar

Rape in prison is a byproduct of a closed system where there is very little autonomous and individual power. One component of humans is that in different situations, we will perform acts that display power and superiority when we feel its warranted. We will fight for the best seat we can get in set hierarchies when the system forces us to (i.e. in unions, politics, playgrounds, college applications, whatever we find important, etc.)

So, in a prison, there are very few opportunities to display power and control. Prisoners display power through having a fresh toothbrush, having money for cigs, having a job in the prison kitchen, and… for some prisoners, it’s rape.

I see rape as a ultimate form of power and control over another person, one that involves tearing through the most intimate boundary possible—it’s the best way to subjugate or destroy a person. Any wonder why it happens in prisons?

Do I think it’s right? No. It’s not—but is it inevitable, considering how our prisons are set up? Yes.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@SecondHandStoke

When one MAKES THE DECISION to cross the line into illegal behavior one needs to be prepared for the possibility that anything might happen as a result.

These possibilities include everything from vigilante justice

If prison abuse, quick and dirty justice from a law abiding citizen, or a gang of plunger happy cops isn’t your cup of tea I strongly recommend that you chose to restrain your behaviors to those within the bounds of the law

The contradiction is that vigilante justice is illegal. By dealing out the “quick and dirty justice” you advocate here the citizen is citizen is not actually law abiding. They are, in fact, stepping outside of the bounds of the law.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Dan_Lyons

The OP spoke about the ugliness that can take place in prison.

I’ve already stated that if an individual chooses to cross the line into illegal activity they should be prepared to endure anything, just or not.

I simply believed that this thread was a proper place to bring up the FACT of male on male rape, something that would certainly qualify as “cruel and unusual punishment” as intended by the OP.

It’s hardly my fault if this is inconvenient to those groups that would try to corner the market on rape as an exclusively man on woman crime.

SecondHandStoke's avatar

@Darth_Algar

Law “enforcement” has a place in our society:

To write up the reports after the act has occurred.

And of course to help juries decide not so much who is to blame but who is liable.

JLeslie's avatar

What? If they raped someone or molested a child and are raped in prison I don’t really give a damn. Why is that hard to understand? Anyone else raped in prison, yes, ai think that is cruel and unusual.

However, for society’s sake, it’s better no one is raped, because AIDS in prison is a very real thing and then then they get out of prison they start spreading it around.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@SecondHandStoke

That did not address my point whatsoever.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

You’re a hard cold person @JLeslie

@SecondHandStoke You appear to be merely troll ing the waters.

Mimishu1995's avatar

Prisons are supposed to isolate criminals and turn them good.

Then why should they allow yet another crime to happen?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

It’s not at all hard to understand, it’s just terribly myopic.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

Prisons are in the horrible state they’re in @Mimishu1995 because the citizens of the respective countries do nothing to clean them up.

JLeslie's avatar

@Dan_Lyons Myopic? Well, the rapists can rest easy because if I were in charge of prisons and had a magic wand I would stop the rape in prisons altogether for the sake of the greater good. Since you are a man and probably don’t live with the fear of being raped you probably have no idea what that is like to have that “worry” basically daily. Men do get raped even out in the real word of course, but I don’t think most men feel vulnerable to it. If you expect some women not to get some satisfaction out of a rapist being raped, or at minimum not care about it, I really don’t understand that. If some man raped you, it happens you know, forcibly made you suck his dick and then forcibly fucked you up the ass while you bled, and if you are a child at the time possibly ruined some internal organs, would you really be bothered he was raped in prison? If so then I guess you are better than most.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

As a victim how I would feel personally would be irrelevant. Certainly I would want vengeance. When my home was broken into I felt like I wanted blood. There’s a reason why victims don’t decide the fate of those who have wronged them. The myopathy is in the idea that it’s rape is cruel for most people, but somehow acceptable for others. It’s a desire for bloodlust, not justice.

Paradox25's avatar

Yes, and it’s a violation of the Eighth Amendment. Prison rape appears to be much more common than prison authorities make it out to be., and it affects female prisoners too.

I’m still trying to figure out the case of Randy Payne. Why was he mixed with violent inmates at a maximum security prison? Where were the guards, and what the fuck were they doing for two hours while Randy was viciously beaten for refusing sex? Isn’t the most vital time to keep an eye on dangerous inmates being in areas outside of their cells where they conglomerate? Were the ‘humans’ who work at the diagnostic and classification center on fucking heroin or drunk themselves when they determined to send Randy to this particular prison? Many heads at both that particular prison and within the Texas Department of Corrections should had been rolling in my opinion.

The problem with idiots who run their mouths about rapists and molesters ‘getting what they deserve’ is the fact that this type of mentality feeds this trend. The fact is you’re more likely to be raped in prison simply for being young, good looking, having feminine characteristics, being timid, lacking confidence, etc over being a convicted rapist or sexual offender (another iffy topic within itself). This mentality has also allowed women being sexually assaulted in prisons to be ignored too.

I’m still not sure how one gets around violating the Eighth Amendment trying to protect inmates from one another without another considering another issue, solitary confinement as an alternative. I’m not leaving the inmates off of here easy too, because if this issue was taken more seriously they too would be facing severe consequences for their hideous actions too. I blame the entire corrections system, the general public and the prison culture itself for this sad state of affairs.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

Well said @Paradox25 Bravo.

Paradox25's avatar

Read about Randy Payne without punching your screen out.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

it seems the good citizens of the US just sit on their fat duffs and do absolutely nothing to put a stop to the criminally insane actions of their criminally insane leaders.

Most Americans are cowards who are scared of their own shadows.

I am proud of Randy for not backing down.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Paradox25 “The problem with idiots who run their mouths about rapists and molesters ‘getting what they deserve’ is the fact that this type of mentality feeds this trend. The fact is you’re more likely to be raped in prison simply for being young, good looking, having feminine characteristics, being timid, lacking confidence, etc over being a convicted rapist or sexual offender (another iffy topic within itself). This mentality has also allowed women being sexually assaulted in prisons to be ignored too.”

http://media.giphy.com/media/5ZosQz0wbTcCA/giphy.gif

JLeslie's avatar

@Darth_Algar I did not say from the perspective of a victim, I said being able to identify as a victim or even just worry about the potential. I agree there is a reason victims don’t decide the punishment.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

The only problem with the rapist being raped equaling a fair sort of punishment is that people who truly believe this is fair are also giving the nod to an eye for an eye sort of justice.
And since this is biblically correct, I would think 90% of the jellies here should not subscribe to that sort of biblical justice at all.

JLeslie's avatar

Don’t get so technical. All it is is not giving a shit if such a brutal person is afraid and hurt physically also. I think of rape as planned, torturous, and not a “snapped” moment for the perpetrator. It takes time to carry it out. There is no eye for an eye when a young child is raped and needs surgery to repair her or his internal organs. That would take knifing the man and twisting it around or putting a pipe so big up him it can reach his upper intestines. Give me a break. Those things really happen to children.

longgone's avatar

@JLeslie Not to derail, but…what turns people into rapists, in your opinion?

JLeslie's avatar

@longgone I think they often have been abused themselves. In some countries I would say it is cultural and also false beliefs. Let’s not derail.

Darth_Algar's avatar

The notion that rapists don’t last long and/or get raped in prison is a myth. A comforting myth people latch on to to make themselves feel like the rapist gets his comeuppance. Rather than becoming victims rapists continue to victimize while in prison and, much like outside, their victims inside are those weaker than they are. Those who can’t really defend themselves. The attitude of not giving a shit only serves to further this cycle of victimization. People on the outside don’t give a shit because they think those getting raped in prison are getting what they deserve. Thus there’s no pressure on prison administration to deal with the problem.

JLeslie's avatar

I do give a shit about the bigger picture, which is why I said as the warden, as the person voting, as the person designing a prison system, I would do my best to eliminate rape in prison. I’m not sure how many times I have to say that?

I am not talking about the reality that the weaker men wind up raped and we can’t pick and choose who actually winds up raped in prison. I am saying on an emotional level if someone raped me, or anyone, and then got raped in prison, I’ll get a little scheaudenfrauden from it, I’ll admit that. Even if I think it is best for society that it doesn’t happen in prison. Let me be clear I am talking about no question scary as shit rape. Not statutory rape, or a guy misread a girlfriend rape. Not that they all are not rape, but just saying there are different levels. My coworkers daughter was held at gunpoint, forced to drive to a construction site, and brutally raped and feared for her life the entire time. A girl I went to high school with, her sister was raped brutally and killed. She was a teenager.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

Oh. That’s odd. A few posts up you stated that you weren’t saying from the perspective of a victim.

JLeslie's avatar

Me, or anyone. I am identifying with the victim. I am saying that maybe you don’t. I generalized that most men don’t live with the daily worry of rape, they don’t think about it.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

I don’t understand @JLeslie Are you saying that because a child was harmed in this manner that it is right and just that the perp also be harmed in this manner (you suggest using a pipe and a knife and twisting them horribly).
Is this some sort of Christian justice? I didn’t think you believed in that sort of nonsense.

JLeslie's avatar

@Dan_Lyons I didn’t say I think a knife should be used, I am saying that is what would have to be done to make it the same. That’s how bad it is for some children. I have said a zillion times I think it better overall there is no violence in prison. Forget it, we are not communicating well. You either don’t want to understand or I am not stating it well.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

Honestly, I think you’re just tap dancing. Your stand is from the perspective of the victim when it’s convenient for you, but not from the perspective of a victim when it’s inconvenient.

longgone's avatar

@JLeslie “I think they often have been abused themselves. In some countries I would say it is cultural and also false beliefs.”

Well. That makes being indifferent to their getting raped even worse. A former victim, after victimizing someone else, gets another turn at playing the victim. When does that cycle end?

JLeslie's avatar

@Darth_Algar No, it’s just being honest about the emotional response and logical enough to see bigger picture.

@longgone You too? I am worried about the cycle, didn’t I say that? That is why I don’t want prisoners to endure violence in the prisons.

I’m going to stop following, I’m not seeing that either of you are going to really hear what I am saying.

longgone's avatar

@JLeslie I just don’t understand the idea of “schadenfreude” here. We’re talking, in many cases, of a tortured child who has turned into a miserable adult and hurt someone weaker. The whole thing is fucking horrible.

I don’t see a formerly raped rapist as less of a victim than his victim is.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

What “bigger picture” would that be?

” I’m not seeing that either of you are going to really hear what I am saying.”

Perhaps if you’d quit waffling and stick to one point….

Dan_Lyons's avatar

Read Zuma’s answer to a similar question. Thanks to JLeslie for providing the thread!

JLeslie's avatar

Eddie Wayne Davis going to be put to death tonight (unless something stops it) for raping and killing an 11 year old girl. He did it 20 years ago. He brutalized and tortured that girl. I don’t like the death penalty, but for the life of me I can’t imagine what could cause a man to do that to a little girl. He wasn’t 14 when he did it and not understanding pain and consequence. He was an adult in his mid 20’s.

longgone's avatar

^ A few posts up, you said that you believed rapists had often been raped themselves. I don’t know what Davis’ story is, but if there is no story, I’d say he was born with a mental disorder. Which is another story.

JLeslie's avatar

@longgone He might very well have been sexually abused as a child. Still, he was an adult when he committed the crime. He has some responsibility doesn’t he? No matter what happened to him as a child.

longgone's avatar

^ I don’t know. I can’t begin to imagine what an abused child goes through. I can’t begin to understand it, and even years later, I don’t know what it will make you do. I’m optimist enough to believe no-one willingly chooses to hurt children. It happens all the time, around the globe, and it is horrible…but I do think there is always a reason.

JLeslie's avatar

@longgone I once saw on Oprah, and I wish I never had, a child rapist talking about when he raped children. He said, “I asked the boy if it felt ok, and the boy said, it’s alright, and so it’s all riiigghhhtttttt.” Big grin on his face saying it in a tone like, yeah let’s get it on. He was practically moving his hips as he told the camera. He convinced himself the boy wanted it. That man should be locked up for life. There are men who feel terrible about their compulsion, they are a different story.

longgone's avatar

^ That is not the least bit convincing to me. It must have been impossible to watch and of course he should be locked up for life – as should every single pedophile!!_ Nevertheless…his rationalizing what happened and his provoking in this immature (disgusting) way is, in my mind, just further proof of an underlying mental disorder and/or a traumatic experience.

I mean – what’s your reasoning? If there was no cause, do you think this guy simply decided one day to rape a kid? Are you saying that’s a decision one can make? I could not make that decision. You couldn’t, either. Something has to happen for people to commit these crimes.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

@JLeslie “He has some responsibility doesn’t he? No matter what happened to him as a child.”

If he has become mentally deranged due to childhood abuse, then he is what we call insane and therefore in our criminal justice system not guilty of criminal intent, which is necessary to convict a perpetrator for an alleged crime.

This is what being civilized is really all about.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m all for the insanity plea. I have no quarrel with that. I guess this guy was not found to be legally insane.

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