How do you handle negotiating a job offer where there is no job description and no salary range defined on paper in advance?

In all the jobs I have gone for in the past, the salary and job description was more or less outlined upfront before I even went to the interview.

However I have recently encountered a few jobs where there is no job description or salary expectation outlined up front.

I do not feel comfortable saying my salary expectations up front in such a situation. I find it sneaky.

I think in such a case the employer should state his expectations and then we should discuss.

What do you think ?