What do you think of the logic of teaching a 9 year old child to shoot an Uzi sub-machine gun?

It’s irresponsible. From what I’ve read even some the “gun people” are saying you should allow a nine year old to use a gun like that, and Uzi. If you want to teach your kids to how to, and the safe, responsible use of guns, you might want start with something a little more sensible. An Uzi is too much gun for a nine year old girl. And why? Why teach a nine year old to use a submachine gun? No matter want you want your kids to learn a parent’s job is to find an age appropriate way to do it.

Ridiculous. The parents should be charged.

I think it is ridiculous. In the United States there is no one outside the military that should even own a UZI let alone know how to use one!

The girl was taught well by the instructor! He should be nominated for the Darwin Award!

@LuckyGuy The instructor caused his own death! He obviously taught her how to use it!

Total stupidity! The parents and the instructor.

Now that girl has to live her whole life knowing she killed someone. The parents have to live with their error also. The dead guy? Well, he is dead. I don’t think the parents should be charged with anything. The instructor chose to do it, and he is supposed to be the expert. This wasn’t an adult with muscle weakness, this was a little girl who we can easily assume my lack some muscle control and strength and not take seriously enough the rules of handling a gun. If the instructor was told to do it by their employer, then the employer might need to be addressed somehow, but no matter what the instructor could refuse.

It takes a lot of strength to control a gun like that. The whole thing pisses me off. It has nothing to do with being pro-gun or antigun, and everything to do with having enough brains in your head to figure out the girl might not be able to handle the gun safely.

A fully trained grown man has trouble controlling an Uzi. Who would be so stupid to put one in the hands of a child. And worse, they didn’t learn a thing from the I believe 8 year old that killed himself with one?

Accidents will happen, but we need to start training young people to use these guns.

Who else will defend the country from Muslim and Chinese invaders?

The instructor died in the service to his country and should be buried with honours.

NRA just lost a paying member.

Uzi as a kid’s toy? Uzi in preparation for a future career in a gang?

What’s the argument about men 17–24 automatically being part of the “well regulated militia” that is mentioned in the 2nd Amendment? How does that work?

Gun nuttery is sometimes a self-correcting problem

I can’t even begin to get started on what is wrong with gun policy in this country.

On a Facebook thread someone said the NRA is still basically saying its ok for kids that age to practice with that sort of gun. Seriously? Can they be that stupid? They are not helping their cause. Did they really officially say that? No cares to weather a child is physically or mentally capable of handling such a gun. I just can’t get over it.

I think it is a personality thing. Some people, some parents, just don’t think about what can go wrong. They stay in the pool in a lightening storm, they don’t worry that the glass on the edge of the table might get knocked over, they lean on the banister sure that it would never give way. What can I say. I was raised to be a little paranoid I guess.

How does that old adage go?

Oh yeah!

“Guns don’t kill people,
Nine year old girls kill people.”

I wonder if the instructor had any choice or was it company policy?

I wonder if he truly thought that teaching a 9 year old to shoot an Uzi was a good idea?

I wonder what the last thing to go through his mind was?

Oh wait…............I already know the answer to the last one.

“Logic” ?!?! How about “utter insanity”?

Logical? I think teaching kids how to shoot guns is the very definition of illogical—nay, insane. Lots of folks in this country and here on Fluther believe otherwise. I’ve given up arguing with them.

Luckily the right guy paid for this stupidity.

@Pachy I don’t think I would go that far. If I lived in an environment were guns were an integral part of my lifestyle I would want my kids to know how to handle themselves and firearms.

@rojo How often is an elementary age child in the situation of needing to protect themselves with a gun?

@JLeslie 9 year olds need to be armed here.

If I lived in an environment were guns were an integral part of my lifestyle

Submachine guns are an integral part of your lifestyle if you live in Syria, northern Iraq, Central African Republic, Eastern Ukraine…

Not to be morbid, but this has got to affect the 9-year old pretty deeply. My guess is that she is mentally scarred for the rest of her life. My guess that she commits suicide before she is 20 because of the guilt she will feel.

I would also charge the girl with manslaughter. And the parents with something like negligent homicide. But I’m not a lawyer.

The only way that his death qualifies for a Darwin is that he has no kids. Darwin means a stupid death or injury that leaves no possibility of reproduction. Once we know whether or not he had kids will determine the award.

@reijinni Well he isn’t going to have anymore.

@elbanditoroso This death was self inflicted. The girl was doing what she was taught by the instructor. If anyone gets charged with manslaughter, it’s the instructor.

i would not charge the child with anything, because, well, it is a child

@JLeslie I did not say they need to be armed, I said, or rather what I meant was, in an environment as I described they need to be trained in the proper handling and use of them, not that they should carry a gun.

@jaytkay I said guns, I did not specify military assault rifles nor did I specify the environment. But since you bring it up, yes, if I lived in one of those places and had an Uzi I would want my kids to be taught to respect, use and care for one.

I am sure if you were to check you would find that many of the families living a rural lifestyle have firearms in their households and in that situation, children should learn early what a firearm is for, what it is capable of and how to handle them correctly for their own safety and the safety of others.

I think the parents should be charged. Not because it’s a 9 year old firing a gun, but because it’s negligent to give anyone of that stature a high recoil weapon. Did their dog drive then to the shooting range?

Insane. I’d be appalled even without that guy’s death…but as it is, the little girl’s life has probably just been ruined.

@jerv But they deferred to the expert, a “well trained, former military, expert” who was well capable of assessing the girl’s ability to handle the recoil of the gun once set on automatic.

Why isn’t it the instructor’s fault?

This is such a sad story. I don’t know why parents would want a 9 year old to go to a firing range. The instructor also seems to have been standing in the wrong place (from what I’ve heard) and should never put that gun on automatic.

I also feel so sorry for that poor little girl. she will have to remember that the rest of her life. I have a nine year old grandson and I can only imagine how much guilt that little girl feels when it was her parents who took her there in the first place.

Someone here blamed the NRA which is just plain foolish. This was a terrible accident caused by bad judgement from instructor and parents.

This is so sad and infuriating. You could charge the parents for endangering a minor, but apparently the law allows 9 year olds to play with Uzis.

There should be an age limit to practice shooting guns for fun at ranges (when people do this at home there is not much you can do). 16 at the very least.

The parents obviously have no right to raise children and now they have scarred their daughter for life. Good job parents.

This tragic, and completely avoidable, story reminds me of Jessica Dubroff, a 7-year-old pilot trainee. Encouraged by some adults in her life, including her parents and flight instructor, she attempted to become the youngest person to fly an airplane across the U.S. Within a day of leaving, she crashed the airplane and killed everyone on board.

Jessica’s mother was on TV after the incident, sobbing uncontrollably. All I could think was, “What the heck was WRONG with you and her father?” Why would any parent let a young child pilot an aircraft? To compound the situation, Jessica didn’t even have a pilot’s license, which requires a minimum age of 17.

There are so many similarities between the two situations. Flying an airplane is hazardous and takes extensive training, experience, and maturity; an Uzi is so lethal that nobody beyond the military should use one. Yet, someone put a young child into a cockpit, and someone else placed an Uzi into another young child’s hands, both failing to recognize any bad judgment.

There is no logic, obviously!
Her parents are clearly fucking stupid, the prick who not only agreed to “supervising” this, but stood right beside her, must have had rocks for brains.
“What we have here is a failure to communicate” (spits on floor)

@zenvelo Really? In that case, I am an expert on Japanese culture because I’ve watched some anime! I mean, really? Hell, I’d have a bit of trouble with the recoil of an Uzi on full auto, and I an considerably larger and stronger than a 9-year-old girl. Around that age, the recoil of a single-shot 9mm was a bit tricky for me, and even without firing, the Uzi is not exactly a light weapon. And it sure as hell isn’t designed for tiny hands that can’t fully wrap around the grip!

The instructor has some blame here to be sure, but if the parents didn’t know enough about guns to have an idea of what their recoil is really like, why are they even within a mile of a firing range? And if they didn’t know that 9-year-olds are smaller than adults, why are they allowed near children or able to reproduce?

When I read about this I was astounded that a firing range would allow a child that age to handle (or attempt to handle) a weapon with such a powerful recoil.

Are they that greedy for profit?or so brainwashed by the NRA to never allow any limitations to be placed upon anybody’s right to own and fire any gun they wish (common sense be damned).

I’ve heard this kind of rhetoric from the NRA. The theory that allowing any restrictions at all is “the camel’s nose under the tent” and the first step down the road to abridging rights granted by the constitution and eventual confiscation yada
yada yada.

And the parents are total brainwashed idiots whose child will pay the emotional price for this for the rest of her life.

Total absence of common sense here on the part of all the adults involved (including the deceased.)

@jerv The instructor was an expert! I’m not saying he had a passing knowledge, he was a professional shooting instructor fully versed in the weapon”

Your analogy to your familiarity with Japanese culture makes no sense. I am saying the parents deferred to the trained expert. Are the parents supposed to know more than the trained expert?

The instructor would have the final say so as to whether or not someone shoots or not.

Words fail me.

Keep in mind the family was on vacation in Vegas and paid a lot of money for the family to shoot rare guns. We went to Circus Circus.

Instructor is a idiot and I don’t feel bad that he is dead.

Parents are fucking nutters.

Owners of the range should lose any license if they have one (or even need one) to continue operating.

The real victim here is the kid. When I was nine I had shot a few guns and would have loved shooting a Uzi. Luckily my parents weren’t insane enough to allow it.

I too worry the girl is scarred for life. My hope is she puts all the culpability on the adults around her and at worst is angry for the rest of her life for being raised by wolves. At best, she comes to terms and can find forgiveness for herself and her family. Maybe the instructors family will say something to her to release her from what ever prison her own mind might box her into.

@elbanditoroso You think the girl should be charged? The 9 year old? Do you think she should be convicted? What do you think her punishment should be?

@johnpowell “Luckily my parents weren’t insane enough to allow it.”

Let’s lift a toast to rational, responsible parents.

@zenvelo What part of, “If he is an expert then anyone who has ever seen anything on TV is also an expert”, is so hard to understand? Did you not get that I question his credentials? If he was a professional, then hiring standards are low. He sure as hell was not fully versed in weapons, unless by “fully versed” you mean, “knew which end the bullets came out of”.

I also expect a little knowledge of one’s hobbies, so the parents should have at least a basic understanding of firearms. Now, anybody who has ever fired an actual gun knows that they have recoil. I knew that when I was 4 from watching my father shoot; the muzzle of his pistol would come up a few inches on every shot. It may take a little more in-depth knowledge to understand how firing multiple bullets in rapid succession has more recoil than firing a single round, but anyone who has ever seen an action movie may at least wonder why machine guns shake when they fire and get a couple brains cells working. But it doesn’t take much to figure that out either; it didn’t take a tremendous leap of logic for 4-year-old me to understand why my father paused between rounds.

Even more basic than that, anyone who has ever grown knows that small children are weaker than grown adults. Ever see a toddler carrying a gallon of milk? And anyone who has ever tried to do something like pick up a basketball with one hand understands how small hands cannot grip large objects. What sort of college degree does one need to learn that 9-year-olds have smaller hands than adults?

Now, I know a bit more about guns than a lot of people, so I don’t expect the parents to know that light weapons jump around more due to recoil than heavier weapons do… but I would expect an ”expert” to know that. And how much expertise does it take to know that 8 pounds (about the weight of a gallon of milk) is a bit harder for a child to lift than it is for an adult, or that having hands too small to firmly grip the weapon can (and likely will) result in loss of control?

@Zenvelo The instructor was an expert! I’m not saying he had a passing knowledge, he was a professional shooting instructor fully versed in the weapon”
Parents are responsible for their young children and for keeping them out of danger. Would you trust your child in the hands of an expert snake handler that would hand over a poisonous snake and just hope the expert knows it won’t bite?

I mean, what was she meant to do with this new found skill?
Spray the locals who refused to buy mommy’s cookies?

@chyna An expert snake handler of the same caliber as that range instructor probably wouldn’t know the difference between a rattlesnake and a trouser snake.

Can’t explain STUPID ! ! !

@jerv @chyna Charles Vacca, the instructor, was a well trained veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. So quit judging his credentials, he was a professional firearms instructor. Given his background, parents would be correct in accepting his assessment on the ability of the girl.

Why was he standing to the side? I would be behind her with my arms ready to catch hers if the recoil starts pushing them up. Riskier if I screw up, safer if I don’t.

Who wants to pay for the girl’s therapy bills?

@jca Thank you for this post. The situation was off my radar until reading this.

__Do you think it’s responsible parenting or irresponsible parenting to have a 9 year old learning to shoot an Uzi?__

After thoroughly reading several news reports, I still cannot answer this question based upon this specific case. Is there any background information on the child’s experience with guns? According to the article, the parents were, but it doesn’t specify Uzis. Having an answer to this question might make a difference in how to respond.

What I __can__ tell you is that, based upon the video posted, Mr. Vargas was either not trained on how to be a teacher or adhering to the rules. He may have been an expert in shooting guns. Unfortunately, experts at a certain job or task are promoted into training positions. They are not always given the proper training in order to be successful in this new role. I could be wrong, but this seems like the case.

In the video, the girl is instructed on how to stand and fire. After one single shot, Mr. Vargas switched the gun to fully automatic. The Uzi may be lighter than a shotgun or rifle, but it still has kick-back. To think that anyone of her build, no matter what the skill-set is, could handle it is just insane. On top of that, isn’t it proper gun training to stand behind the shooter? This gives the instructor support in buffering any kick-back and take control of the gun.

Based upon the reports posted so far, the blame should go to the owner of Last Stop, the firing range. The company may have been within the law for letting a 9 year-old shoot an Uzi, but it is his responsibility to ensure the safety of the customers. This means that employees need proper instruction on how to train someone and to assess each customer for what they may or may not be allowed to use.

For now, the owner of Last Stop has upped the age of customers allowed to shoot. A more recent report states that this tourist site is shut down indefinitely.

Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. She should be charged with murder and executed. Unless of course conservatives are completely full of shit and don’t mean what they say.

I didn’t know that The Last Stop was the name of the shooting range until I just read it here.

Well, that was a case of self-fulfilling prophecy wasn’t it now~~

Appalling and just plain wrong IMO
NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY, of any age, let alone a child needs to use an automatic assault weapon. This fucking world is insane, and now that poor child has to cope with the horrors of what happened. Most likely her redneck bubba of a daddy wanted his child to mirror his own obsession with shooting. Yep, that’s my take, agree or disagree.

@zenvelo If that is true, then he had a massive enough momentary lapse of judgment to negate any and all credentials. Then again, this guy is a trained professional too.
I am not sheepish enough to blindly trust authority and protocol. I actually know the difference between between “should be” and “is”, as well as the difference between “what is said”, and “what is done”. I will stop questioning his credentials when I see other fairy tales (like supply-side economics leading to prosperity for all, incontrovertible proof that Earth is flat instead of round) become reality. You will just have to accept that I am skeptical where you are blindly accepting.
I will accept your argument if there is evidence that this was actually an elaborately planned suicide. Otherwise, no, I will not stop questioning his credentials, and will, in fact, question them even more because of your poorly-backed argument.

@gorillapaws That would require consistency; something they are not known for.

@jerv It’s not that I am blindly accepting his credentials, it’s that the parents, prior to the instructor’s death, viewed him as a credible instructor to teach their daughter. I’ve already said that no one outside of a military situation has a need for an Uzi, and shouldn’t be touching one,

But the parents can’t be held responsible for the death of the instructor, because the instructor would be considered an expert by any reasonable person. And then he wasn’t very good and died from his own lapse of judgment.

I agree with @zenvelo the only thing the parents are accountable for is their own ignorance and low IQ. Heh!

Logic? Logic? When I heard the place was called Bullets and Burgers I could only shake my head in disbelief.

It would take a lot of chutzpah to charge the parents with anything. If anyone else had been shot I could see it, but since the instructor was shot, what is the state going to do? Same with any sort of civil case. If the family of the person who was shot and killed had the nerve to come after the parents I would be shocked and amazed.

Now, it would be justified in my mind for social services to talk to the parents and visit their house to make sure it is generally a safe environment for children.

@zenvelo I would agree with “viewed as” an expert by those who have practically no knowledge of firearms, not even ever watching an action movie. I know I get viewed as something other than what I am all the time, so yeah, I would buy, “viewed as”.

And maybe 9-year-olds are larger and stronger than I believe then to be. Maybe they really do have enough strength to do something I, a grown adult about twice the size (150 pounds, compared to the ~70 pounds of the average 9-year-old) would have a little trouble pulling off. Maybe kids defy physics by having more inertia than their mass says they should. I’m not an expert in children, so I wouldn’t know.

Age 12, due to the elevated height-weight ratio is a more appropriate age for teaching a kid how to handle-shoot an uzi and the likes. Having a competent instructor goes without saying. Watch this 13-year-old girl in action… link

As for who is responsible, it clearly rests with the instructor, not the parents, providing the fact that the parents did their due diligence for the range and instructor which seems to me that they did since the range and instructor didn’t have a questionable history. In general, these are rare cases.