Why do we say some things in a certain order?
This question occurred to me because the twins went as Bonnie and Clyde for Halloween And they were soooooo CUTE!!.
Then I got to thinking…why “Bonnie and Clyde?” Why not “Clyde and Bonnie?”
Why is it comparing “apples and oranges,” and not comparing “oranges and apples?”
Why is is “Mr. and Mrs,” and not “Mrs. and Mr.?” (Although that one is kind of obvious, albeit sexist.)
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This brings to mind a funny story I tell on myself. A Trivial Pursuit question was “Who was Sullivan’s partner?” I kept saying to myself, “Sullivan and? Sullivan and?” I could not get the obvious answer.
It sounds more pleasing to the ear. The French don’t say comme ca comme ci, The single syllable hard stop in Clyde is definitive instead of blending as the vowel ending of Bonnie. Same effect with ”-ell” as opposed to ”-ess”.
“Gilbert!”
Oh, good answer @zenvelo. I wonder if it has to do with the alphabetical order, too?
Also, would they say, “Duke and Duchess,” or “Duchess and Duke?” Pretty sure they say Duke first, which violates the pleasing to the ear thought, which is a very good thought.
Titles, such as Mr. and Mrs., Duke and Duchess, etc., are traditionally used in the old sexist order, as in “a man and his wife”.
Good point @Yetanotheruser. Plus, I suspect that the traditional orderings also reflected the individual’s level of power, responsibility and authority. A Duke, for instance, would have carried far more responsibility than his equally capable wife, the Duchess.
This has been the subject of quite a lot of research in linguistics. These terms are known as “frozen binomials”, and it turns out that the ordering tends to follow certain patterns. The factors that influence the order (or “constraints”) are of several kinds, including semantic (e.g. male/female), metric (number and stress of sylables), frequency of use and many others. In many cases, there are competing constraints, in which case some constraints tend to take precedence.
In short, it’s complicated. If ypu want to get a taste of what this kind of research looks like, here’s one paper on the subject.
This is a really cool article about just that topic.
“Is this a big brown dog or a brown big dog?”
White port and lime juice. Cakes and ale. Pie and ice cream.
All three of those, along with fish and chips or burgers and fries, go from the main time to the accompanying item.
This and that
Here and there
Hither and yon
Fore and aft
Bride and groom
Husband and wife
Ball and chain… I’ll stop now.
Nice and fast.
I have a gorgeous young Korean woman helping me at the moment, she is just a breath of fresh air. There is one job she has to do here in the evening, after it is done the person doing it usually says ”…it’s draining nice and fast”, or something to that effect, but she always says “it’s draining fast and NICE” with an emphasis on the nice. Maybe you just have to be here to appreciate it but it’s something I look forward to hearing.
I think mostly because of tradition. Men first is one tradition when it comes to things like Mr. and Mrs.
Another tradition is just keeping the order as you always have heard it.
Cake and ice cream I think makes sense because usually the cake is the main item, they usually aren’t equals on the plate. The cake is plated first. The “and” is substituted for a preposition. Cake with ice cream, or cake with ice cream on top.
I think we also tend to put the word with the fewest syllables first. I’m not sure. If have to think about this more to feel confident in saying that.
Do we also tend to put things in alphabetical order without noticing? I would have to think about that too.
With people I think we usually would list the person we knew first if you met them separately.
It would be interesting if there is some sort of subconscious thing going on that we don’t realize when we put things in the order we do.
I think that @JLeslie is on the right track with “tradition”. It is probably more cultural. Someone comes up with a pairing term, people grasp the concept, and it becomes integrated into our vocabulary.
This leads to a more important factor. Effective communication is about delivering a message to another person in a way that takes the least amount of effort to decipher. @janbb gave a prime example. She mentioned being temporarily stumped by the question, “Who was Sullivan’s partner?” If it had been worded, “Who was Gilbert’s partner?”, those familiar with Gilbert & Sullivan would have immediately made the connection and been able to offer a correct answer without giving it a second thought.
Cheese and Rice, @syz!!!!! That is one terrifying cat!!!!!
Took my Vanta in to get her stitches out last week. He tried to hold her down, then called for his assistant because, he said, “She thinks she’s a panther!” She does too. She was at the vets for 3 days, and his assistant said she’d just hiss and hiss when she approached!
Just this morning I watched the 4 month old kitten chase a grown cat out of the yard. She stared down a boxer who was running lose the other day. So far she’s been lucky to have come up against mellow animals.
Up and down, why not down and up? lol
Macaroni and cheese, why not cheese and macaroni?
^^^ “Macaroni and cheese” kind of violates the “Pleasing to the ear” argument. “Macaroni” sounds more final than “cheese.”
Oh see, macaroni and cheese eliminates my idea that the first word is usually fewer syllables. However, it goes along with my idea that the macaroni is the main part if the dish. The sauce is not an equal. Pasta and meat sauce. Linguine with marinara. Pie a la mode.
Be not are fucking can you serious.
^^ Yoda swearing? Not surely!!
The order of these sociopath’s names were the subject of great debate at the time of their reign of terror.
“Bonnie and Clyde” was finally settled upon by listing the names alphabetically.
So the name order of “Mr.” and “Mrs.” Is sexist.
Starting today I expect women to open doors for me.
And lead when I’m dancing.
The root of these conventions is not to be sexist but rather, like all etiquette, is there so one never wonders what to do in any given situation.
At least we don’t live in Japan where calling cards are exchanged first thing so everyone knows how deeply to bow to each other.
Guys used to get upset because I would just naturally take the lead. It was hard for me to follow someone, because I was in my own head.
Hardy & Laurel
Costello & Abbott
Ripper the Jack…meh!
One would think this should be a shut-and-open case for why certain words are in used the order that we use. There certainly has been a lot of fro and to about this, if not take and give. Certainly, though it seems white and black to some of us, as familiar as the stripes and stars, to others the issue is apparently mirrors and smoke. (Garfunkel and Simon should have written a roll and rock song about it.)
Well, I, for one, am not about to haw and hem over the topic any longer. I am no longer at the call and beck of those who think that words should only appear in a particular order, or an order particular, matter for that.
Give me Death, or give me Liberty… or something. As the words of the New Hampshire state motto could be written: Die or Live Free.
So should it be, “My dog has fleas”, or “Fleas have my dog”?
“Our father who arts in heaven….”
Our arter who farts in heaven…..
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