What question does the anti-assisted suicide side pose when polling the population?

Legitimate poll takers include the questions with the results.

Bias exists no matter what your stance is. You have ridiculous people on both sides, and this is an example of one of them. Sorry I didn’t answer the question directly. I’m confused by it, so this is what I came up with.

@jaytkay But the question that would be posed by the anti side is not going to be a con job of a question. The pro-side has no argument, just I don’t want pain. They don’t address all the points the ant-side does.
@dxs In developed countries, it shouldn’t even be a subject of discussion. Just like corporal punishment, death penalty, (not that those are close to each other) etc. are unacceptable in more and more developed parts of the world. It makes no sense whatsoever that countries that have adopted it have.

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/not-for-adults-only/
Unreal, they are not old enough to vote but they are to decide to die.

The last major poll on this subject in Canada was conducted last fall by Ipsos-Reid for a group called Dying With Dignity. Here are the detailed results of the survey. The questions are shown in the bottom left corner of each page of results. As you can see, they did not simply ask one question, and no one was offered any cake.

It’s true that the questions were limited to situations in which the life of the patient would be deemed unbearable. However, since that is the entire point of proposing assisted suicide, I don’t know why any alternative would be offered. Plainly, someone who is not suffering, or who thinks their suffering will be short-term, will not want this service.

It is not typical for “arguments” (either pro or con) to be presented in polls. A poll is not a debate, it is a questionnaire to determine what people think about an issue.

The questions asked in the Ipsos-Reid poll were these (my numbering added to improve readability):

1. In October, The Supreme Court of Canada is scheduled to hear a case about assisted dying. As long as there are strong safeguards in place, how much do you agree or disagree that a doctor should be able to help someone end their life if the person is a competent adult who is terminally ill, suffering unbearably and repeatedly asks for assistance to die?

2. Have you been close to someone who suffered terribly before they died?

3. Do you think most Canadians support or oppose legalizing assisted dying for the terminally ill?

4. How important is the issue of assisted dying for the terminally ill to you, personally?

5. To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

•A person should not be forced to endure drawn-out suffering

•Palliative care (medical care focused on the relief of symptoms, pain and stress of the seriously ill) cannot always relieve patients of unbearable pain and suffering.

•People should be able to decide for themselves when and how to die if they are terminally ill and their quality of life becomes intolerable

•Doctors assisting a terminally ill person to end their life should not fear prosecution

•Palliative care is not always available for people who need it.

•Since it is legal for a person to refuse or request an end to treatment, even if it results in death, it should be legal to request assisted dying

6. How aware are you that if a doctor assisted a terminally ill patient to die by prescribing or administering life-ending medication, the doctor would be charged with assisting a suicide (maximum 14 year prison sentence) or committing a homicide (maximum life in prison).

7. The following are various descriptions of health. Please indicate the health scenarios under which you believe a patient should have the right to choose assisted dying for themselves:

•A terminal illness that results in unbearable suffering

•A serious and incurable illness or condition, with an advanced state of weakened capacity that is permanent, incurable and results in unbearable suffering

•Permanent and severe physical disability that significantly impacts quality of life and the ability to carry out basic activities of daily living

8. If there were to be a change in the law to allow assisted dying for the terminally ill, how much would you support or oppose the following:

•A physician prescribes and administers life-ending medication

•A physician prescribes life-ending medication and administers it if the patient cannot take it themselves

•A physician prescribes life-ending medication that the patient takes themselves

•A physician prescribes life-ending medication and a nurse or other licensed healthcare professional administers it

Do those questions address the legitimate fear the concerns that anti-people have been putting forth? It doesn,t look that way?

the question that would be posed by the anti side is not going to be a con job of a question. The pro-side has no argument

What poll are you referring to? What questions were asked?

@flo As I said in my previous post, it is not the place of a poll to put forth arguments – it is not supposed to educate people. It is supposed to find out what people think, right now, about a given subject.

If the “anti-people”, as you call them, want to ask their own questions, why shouldn’t they? But it sounds like you want to see them distribute information rather than gather information. That’s not what polling is about.

Do you think weak cowards should be allowed to cause suffering for their families by killing themselves?
Do you think humans should have the right to act against the Almighty God’s plans for them, by cowardly killing themselves due to some slight discomfort?
Do you agree that only the Almighty and All-Knowing God, and his chosen people on Earth, the Clergy, have the right to end someone’s life?

In all seriousness, I can not conceive of any legitimate argument to deny a person of sound mind, the right to decide over their own life and death.
You can put forth arguments to make them reconsider, or why they should not do it, but there is no argument to be made for making it/keeping it illegal.

I agree with @dappled_leaves Polls are intended to find out the general consensus not to pose arguments. That said, I feel everyone has a right to choose when, how and where they die and that this should not only mean in circumstances of extreme physical suffering. I think anyone has the right to check out whenever they desire to expire. I am the “almighty” decision maker of my own life.

As I’ve said before – if a person has a right to life then they also have the right to end their life in a time and manner of their choosing. And for whatever reasons they choose as well.

@Darth_Algar Finally, something we agree on completely. haha

Not Dead Yet is a disability rights group who oppose the legalization of assisted suicide and euthanasia. They are not a religious group and believe that these laws could be taken into the wrong hands and used to pressure “inconvenient” people to commit suicide to ease social or financial struggles of their family and the community around them.

They believe that many severely disabled people would be allowed assisted suicide in situations that could have been helped with counselling and antidepressants—just like anyone else. But because people assume that the quality of life is dismal for the disabled, people would simply green light suicide instead of running psych evaluations.

They also fear that the elderly would be (and have been) pressured by their families to “die with dignity” because their being alive and in elder care facilities was extremely expensive and the families didn’t want all of the inheritance to get eaten up.

There are many more points they make, and I don’t think they are frivolous at all. They say that an individual seeking escape from pain and suffering alone may seem noble, but on a large scale basis, this could be dangerous for people who are severely disabled but not suffering because of their disability.

This isn’t a question about whether people have the right to choose when they die.

As long as the person has a terminal life threatening illness and is in constant pain, they should have the choice as to when they want out.
I would want that choice.

That said maybe the people that are against it see it being abused,by greedy family members that want their inheritance early, or by someone that doesn’t want to care for a disabled person any more,but disabled people that are not in pain wouldn’t qualify anyways.

@dappled_leaves
She was asking what sorts of questions would people ask if they were against assisted suicide and I thought people gave very weak, half baked answers because they were very biased towards assisted suicide. I was suggesting an organization website to look up because they are against it and have a very coherent, secular reasoning behind it

@dappled_leaves “This isn’t a question about whether people have the right to choose when they die.”

Correct. It’s a thinly veiled attack on that right.

@SQUEEKY2

The problem is that in many places where assisted suicide is legal, disability IS a factor in deciding whether someone should be allowed to do so.

The political agenda of many assisted suicide organizations includes expansion of eligibility to people with incurable but not necessarily terminal conditions who feel that their suffering is unbearable (Baron, C.H. et al. (1996). Statute: A model act to authorize and regulate physician-assisted suicide. Harvard Journal on Legislation, 33 (1), p.11), without examining the cause of the suffering or whether it can be alleviated.

@keobooks Basically, I’m suggesting that if you want to discuss the right to die, you ask a separate question, because most of these responses are going to end up being modded off. This is General, and they are off-topic. But if you prefer them to be short-lived, by all means continue.

@dappled_leaves so all the people who are doing the same as I am, but AGREE with you in this question can go ahead and do so, but if they DISAGREE with you, they should leave and start their own question. Correct?

Even if you protest it, I find it a bit suspicious everyone could go on their merry way with these answers until ONE dissenting voice popped in.

@keobooks Wow, I never said that. My first comment about this was not directed at you, only the second one after you responded to me directly. Please look again and read it a little more kindly.

@dappled_leaves Sorry about that. It was just bad timing.

Anyway, I find it kind of sad that so many people think that the only people against assisted suicide are religious nuts or crazy people. I think NDY has some very valid arguments and it seems that the severely disabled and chronically ill people they represent are getting ignored as people with valid concerns.

One this website people ask a lot of thought provoking questions and provide some really interesting, not thought of answers to questions that people think they have all squared away and answered in their heads. I think if the question is “What argument do anti-assisted suicide have?” This is the perfect source of an answer.

[Mod Says] This question has been moved to Social with permission from the OP.

Yay!

@keobooks

Frankly, as someone born with a disability, I find the “arguments” on that site a tad insulting.

@keobooks Thank you, for addressing the topic head on and for providing the links. That is how to do it.

@Darth_Algar This is not an veiled attack on ending one’s life, because the question is about involving the medical profession to do it. Entirely different thing.

@ragingloli “I can not conceive of any legitimate argument to deny a person of sound mind, the right to decide over their own life and death.”
Your statement doesn’t reveal we are talking about trying to involve the people who are supposed to provide you with palliative care, and not end it.

@flo

Then perhaps your original post should have actually addressed the issue of medical professionals’ involvement. As it is your post, as stated, presents a series of odd questions that have nothing to do with the subject whatsoever, makes an unfounded assumption about polling, and has no mention at all of medical professionals. In fact, until now you’ve made no mention of medical professionals in any of your posts in this thread.

@Darth_Algar how is it insulting that many people with severe disabilities are afraid that if they get deeply depressed, instead of getting counselling, medication and advised not to do it, instead they get directed to a doctor to help them do it?

I can’t find the article but there is a story of a woman’s family suing the State of Oregon because of this. She was quadroplegic and in some chronic pain, but had been living most of her life happy. She was going to college, had a job and a boyfriend. Then one day, the boyfriend dumped her and her transportation to college and her job dried up so she had no way to travel and had to drop out of work and school. She of course became severely depressed. When she sought relief, instead of being offered services given to able bodied people, she was offered assisted suicide—and took it. Because people thought her life wasn’t worth living, they offered suicide when she could have been helped in other ways.

I hear people talk about being quadriplegic as if it were so horrible that they’d want assisted suicide if they became that way. For some reason, “not being able to wipe your own butt” was listed as a major reason for not being able to live that way. But people are born quadriplegic and live that way every day. They live happy and productive lives. If for some reason, they became severely depressed, they deserve the same counselling and safeguards against suicide that an able bodied person receives.

But that doesn’t happen. It’s not happening now, and when more assisted suicide becomes legal, more severely disabled people may not get proper treatment for severe depression and be encouraged to die rather than told not to do it.

@keobooks They also deserve the right to determine whether or not their quality of life and hope for future improvement is how they want to live. Most people fear losing their independence more than anything else, whether that is mental, physical or even financial.
Existing is not living for many and I know it wouldn’t cut it for me.
I don’t care what kind of treatment is offered for depression, in circumstances of extreme dependence with no hope of ever regaining ones mobility and independence I think opting out is a viable choice.

Again, none of us have a right to determine what we think should be a satisfactory quality of life for another. I lost everything, job, home, life savings during this recession ( depression ) between 2010 and 2013. I am struggling now with the harsh realities I am facing as I grow older and am no longer able to sustain the lifestyle to which I was accustomed, have zero retirement funds left and am now living on ⅓rd of my previous income.
While I am still finding small moments of happiness I am under no illusion of the grim reality of my future and having a measuring stick to measure the high quality of my previous life vs. now….well, the dipstick has dipped to an all time low.

I’m hanging in there but let me tell you, after living an active and quality life if I am going to be facing abject poverty, health issues and an extremely restricted lifestyle, financially as well as physically as I continue to age, well, fuck that!

I absolutely am keeping the check out factor in the back of my mind.
I certainly don’t want anyone telling me what THEY think “should” be a quality of life that I am supposed to be satisfied with.
Everyone KNOWS what they need to feel they are living a quality life and whatever that is, is not subject to the opinions of others.
Great, maybe if you were a quadroplegic you’d be happy sipping a milkshake through a straw and channel surfing with a device attached to your nose, mouldering away with nothing more to do than stare at a TV set all day.

I wouldn’t and that’s my choice.

@Coloma your thoughts on the disabled are EXACTLY why I think there need to be more safeguards in place for severely disabled.

I mentioned a quadriplegic woman who had a job, a boyfriend and getting a college degree. She got severely depressed when her boyfriend broke up with her and she lost her main mode of transportation. She lived for years perfectly happy as a quad. Her depression was not directly related to being a quad.

But so many people looked at her and thought it was absolutely horrible that she was quadriplegic that they just brushed all the details of her life aside. They didn’t see a college student with a job and a boyfriend. They say someone sipping a milkshake through a straw and channel surfing while mouldering away. That was far from the truth, but that’s all they saw, because THEY thought living as a quadriplegic would be unbearable.

If she weren’t disabled and she wanted to commit suicide because her boyfriend dumped her and she couldn’t drive for whatever reason, people would be aghast and do anything to try to stop her. But she’s in a wheelchair. Her life must already be a waste. Let her die.

I’m not 100% against assisted suicide. I’m against how there are no safeguards to make sure that severely disabled people with depression get the same treatment that non-disabled get.

YOU may not want to live as a quadriplegic, but thousands of people do—happily—every day. But if they become depressed and say they want to die for whatever reason, they are likely to get encouraged to die rather than getting treated for severe depression. That’s just wrong.

There aren’t enough psych evaluations happening. Doctors are making the decision based on THEIR OWN OPINION of what “quality of life” means. And if someone is already biased against particular disabilities, they are going to err on the side of suicide rather than treatment. I think at least an preliminary psych evaluation would do wonders.

Even terminally ill people might be severely depressed for reasons other than their health. They may feel terrible that they never reconciled with family members, or made too many mistakes in their life. We can’t know this without a psych evaluation.

There’s more than just the evaluation, but I saw how few people who requested assisted suicide were evaluated—almost none of them and I saw room for a whole lot of error.

@keobooks

that page is insulting because it reads as if it were written with the perspective that a disabled person can’t make that determination themselves. As if they need somebody protecting them like a small child. It’s insulting because those folks would deny me my right to autonomy and self-determination.

@keobooks I also know a 38 yr. old man, father of two young kids, who dove into a lake off his boat 3 years ago and suffered a spinal cord injury that has left him a quad. His wife divorced him, couldn’t handle it, he is reliant on round the clock care and is severely depressed as anyone would be. His little kids are the ONLY thing he is staying alive for. The POINT is that whether someone is a quadroplegic or suffers any, huge, life changing situation that leaves their quality of life severely compromised they should be able to choose whether or not they wish to continue.

Right to die, for anyone is based on what THEY consider a satisfactory quality of life.
Depression is a side effect of great life upheavals, injuries, illness, and terminal illness is a side effect of living. Treatment for depression is not going to help those coping with extreme disabilities and illness. Infact, a website I was frequenting during my bad time called ” Over 50 and out of work” stories of the great recession, highlighted a mental health professional saying that there was absolutely NOTHING to do for these depressed, suicidal, middle aged people who had lost everything and have little hope of ever regaining their former solvency.

This mental health pro, said, very clearly that these people were coming into her office and there was nothing she could do. She couldn’t give back somebody their job, homes, life savings, promise they will find another job, recoup their losses when they are already at or near retirement age.
The only thing that could “cure” these peoples depressions would be to regain all their losses. There is no magic fix for life altering,devastating loss that will never be remedied for most people by therapy and that’s a fact.

Situational depression and recovery is all about changing the situation that lent itself to the depression. In the event of terminal illness, disability and poverty stricken aging there is NO fixing those problems and for those that wish to be done I support them 10,000%.
Telling a quadroplegic they should be happy to hold a pencil in their teeth and sketch an apple or a retirement age person that they can still find happiness renting a room in someones home and living on oatmeal after losing everything just isn’t going to cut it.
If they want to go, let them go with dignity and support.

@Darth_Algar “Then perhaps your original post should have actually addressed the issue of medical professionals’ involvement.”

“Assisted suicide” is about medical profession doing the deed, (it is not finding some lay person for it) even if the question doesn’t have the term “medical profession” in it.

@Coloma “The only thing that could “cure” these peoples depressions would be to regain all their losses.”
No all they need a loving/caring atmosphere. Not “You’re right, in fact I don’t how you didn’t come forward before now” or “Hurry up and die, so I can inherit…” message.

You included poverty as a reason people should be allowed to die with dignity? For reals?

@Coloma
acid attack victims triumph
See what they need?

@Darth_Algar I think anyone with severe depression isn’t really capable of making rational decisions over life and death. This is why we put suicidal people in lock down and on suicide watch. If we put all that effort into a nondisabled depressed person, we should give the same effort to disabled.

@flo

Nonetheless, your postings did not address that issue whatsoever. Perhaps you should work on phrasing your posts better so that your intention comes across more clearly.

@keobooks

So disabled = severely depressed?

And you wonder why I find this insulting?

Ummm…. Is your disability the inability to understand text? I SAID several….as in MANY times that severely depressed people should be treated the same regardless of whether or not they had a disability. I think I mentioned SEVERAL times in this very thread that there was a woman who was perfectly happy and a quad… Until her boyfriend dumped her. Instead of getting treatment she needed she got help dying.

Where on gods green earth did you get the idea that I said all disabled people are severely depressed???

And if you’re such the delicate flower when it comes to disability, why didn’t you get offended by @Coloma and her extremely dismal outlook for people who become disabled?

@Coloma isn’t saying that disabled people have nothing to live for. She’s saying that each person, even the disabled, has the right to decide what their threshold is. The link you posted assumes that the disabled should be advocated for because, apparently, disabled folks can’t advocate or decide for themselves. And I’ll put more stock into your quad woman story and your argument there when you can demonstrate that there’s a systematic approach of “oh, you’re disabled, might as well kill yourself then”.

@keobooks I do not have an “extremely dismal” outlook on disability, I am only saying that QAULITY of life is a highly PERSONAL definition.
Poverty is as much of a disability and shitty quality of life as anything else.

@flo All the love and kindness in the world is not going to give me back my cherished home, independence and life savings. I too have overcome great adversity, but as @Darth_Algar shared, everyones thresh hold is different.

@Darth_Algar Exactly, thank you.

This is about freedom of choice, poverty, depression, illness, whatever the issue, if someone WANTS to be done, that is their right, regardless of anyone elses opinion of what constitutes a viable reason.

@Darth_Algar I’m just about done with you here. I think you are misreading posts on purpose. I probably shouldn’t bother mentioning that I said all severely depressed people should be protected from themselves because then you’ll just get confused and think that I think all disabled people are depressed.

Oh and btw, NotDeadYet wasn’t created by a bunch of nondisabled people who felt sorry for others. All of the founders are disabled. Almost all of the members are disabled. Most of them are severely disabled. Go on over to that website and tell them that they don’t know what they are talking about,

@Coloma You lost me when you started including financial well being your equation.

@keobooks How so? Why is financial independence any different than physical independence?
Some people may be perfectly happy living on government assisstance, I am not one of them.
If my future is going to be being a food stamp and medi-cal recipient after decades of being an independent and strong and financially solvent woman, yep, I’d rather be dead than a burden to the state and family. A very viable choice, one that not only would absolve me of substandard living but one that would be an altruistic choice of not burdening the system or family.
Maybe YOU could find some measure of happiness being a poverty stricken quadroplegic with your face burned off from an acid bath, well…goodie for you.

I could handle losing my face to an acid bath, I could handle a large degree of physical pain, disability and disfigurement, I can not handle abject poverty and old age and loss of my freedom being a bright, highly creative and very independent personality.

How DARE you determine my definition of quality of life!

Poor people frequently fall through the cracks when it comes to mental healthcare. It would be SO much cheaper to kill them off than to treat any of them for depression.

@keobooks

I didn’t say they “don’t know what they’re talking about”, I said I find their arguments insulting. Talk about misreading…

Though one statement in your post there pretty much demonstrates what I’m talking about – you feel people should be “protected from themselves” (yes, you said “severely depressed”, but I’m willing to bet this mindset carries over into other areas as well). I feel people should be at liberty to make their own choices.

@Darth_Algar Amen.
@keobooks Quit being so codependent and just mind your OWN business. Leave others to their choices. You do not know what is best for others, nobody does, except the person in question. The individual is in charge of their own destiny not random others that think they know best.

@keobooks Treat them for WHAT? Try to convince them that being poor has a bright side?
Pfft!
They are depressed because they are poor. WTF is your problem anyway?

[Mod Says] Hey, everybody! Please remember to disagree without being disagreeable.

@Coloma if you want to kill yourself when you’re poor, have at it. But I seriously doubt anyone is going to approve assisted suicide for it. If you can’t figure out why this would be a horrible thing for society, that’s your problem to figure out on your own.

As for your personal attacks, have at it. It doesn’t make your argument any more compelling.

@Darth_Algar—Don’t assume anything about my mindset because you’re wrong.

Suicidal thoughts are a sign of severely poor mental health and irrational thinking. Like it or not, in our society, people with suicidal thoughts ARE protected from themselves. They are sent to the hospital and put under close observation and given drugs to ease the suicidal thoughts. Sorry. That’s not the musings of some crazy person. That’s reality.

@keobooks Asking what your problem is is not a personal attack, you should be smart enough to acknowledge that conscious choice is also a viable possibility and not contingent on depression and irrational thought in many instances.
Refer back to George Eastmans comment, he made a rational and conscious choice to be done and not wait for fate to intervene. Situational depression is based on situation and if said situation has no chance of being resolved the choice to opt out is ones personal choice.
I am just as passionate about nobody having the right to determine what anothers quality of life should be as you in wanting to keep people alive at all costs and refusing to allow others to be the masters of their own fate.

Bottom line, it varies widely by the individual and one persons reasons might not be viable to another but it does not mean they are not viable to that person.
I wouldn’t expect assistance but I would expect support.
You are also incorrect in the sense that while depression does lend itself to suicidal thinking it is also perfectly possible for someone to make a conscious and rational CHOICE without severe depression based on possibility vs. probability of rectifying their situation be it mental, emotional, physical, financial.
Robin Williams exercised his right to check out before his health condition rendered him completely disabled. The only thing that is sad about his passing is that he was unable to involve his loved ones and say his proper goodbyes because of the stigma of the choice of suicide and others refusing to honor the persons very personal decision.

IF someone is depressed for months on end, and intervention is not helping because it cannot change their circumstance then, yep, let them make their choices. Giving someone drugs to ease their suicidal thoughts is a like putting a band aide on a severed limb.
Not wanting to live in poverty for the rest of your days or not wanting to continue living ( existing not living ) in chronic pain or severe disability does not make someone mentally ill or irrational, infact it makes them very rational and the depression is correspondent with not living a life of quality, not mental illness and irrational thought.

Also, to be perfectly clear, when I speak of choosing death over poverty, I am not talking about not being able to afford a 5,000 sq. foot house and a Lexus, and oh, what a bummer, I have to live in a condo now and drive a Kia.
I am talking about potential homelessness. Would I rather be dead than living on the streets as an old woman? You bet.

I have first hand experience now with this very sensitive topic as I am someone who has actually walked the walk and as always, until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes you don’t have a leg to stand on. Pun intended. Given my very personal experience with the very real possibility of facing homelessness in my advancing age after 37 years of financial solvency and living a quality life…well, this is something I have given a great deal of thought to this past few years and have come to the conclusion that every person, as @Darth_Algar mentions, has their very own, highly personal reasons of which we should not and are not qualified to judge.

Lets also look at the right we already have to refuse medical treatment, DNR orders, right to refuse heroic measures, right to refuse chemotherapy, mental health intervention, on and on. What’s the difference if someone refuses chemo and allows cancer to kill them several years sooner than it might have with treatment, vs. electing to take their own lives in the time and fashion they see fit?
It’s okay to sign your own death certificate by refusing medical intervention but it is not okay to take your own life based on free will and sound mind?

@Coloma I totally agree with you, what I get the impression from @keobooks is that she is afraid that people will be pushed into the prescribed death treatment by the fact that they are disabled or depressed or even extremely poor, and I understand her fear on that.
BUT I can’t see that happening with the right legislation .
The death with dignity ,has to be the persons choice ONLY, and I feel it should only be for terminal people only,

@SQUEEKY2 Agreed, and I understand the concerns, however, short of obvious “irrationality”, ” I am 15 years old and my boyfriend dumped me and I am gong to kill myself because I will never have another boyfriend” vs. I am 55 years old and short of winning the lottery have no hope of ever regaining my former financial independence and could very well end up homeless, which is reality not irrationality.
If hopelessness is the cornerstone of depression we need to recognize that sometimes that hopelessness is REAL, based on the reality of someones situation, health, etc. not irrational thought stirred up by mental illness.
It is unfair to claim that every depressed person is mentally unwell and a victim of irrational thought, on the contrary, harsh realities are the cause of a lot of depression and the person is absolutely in their right mind.

@keobooks

How am I wrong for taking your statement that people should be protected from themselves to mean that you feel people should be protected from themselves? And when did I ever say you were some crazy person? If you’re going to respond to me try responding to things I’ve actually said, rather than inventing arguments I never made.

@keobooks is just saying it shouldn’t be an easy thing to come by.

@Dutchess_III and it shouldn’t I can see if it isn’t legislated properly there could be cases of where it has the possibility of being abused, and that would be sad, because I think it would be a God send for those suffering from real terminal pain.

I have so many things to address after my last post, so I have to come back.

“The death with dignity ,has to be the persons choice ONLY.” by @SQUEEKY2
The thing is who really knows that it is really the person’s choice or subtle/ore not unspoken pressure from that makes the person decide to die? Con artrists don’t declare themsleves.

@flo No amount of “pressure” would make someone choose to die unless it was what they really wanted IMO. It is much more likely that the person wanting to die is going to meet with extreme resistance from others not pressure.

“I can’t imagine living with things like wrinkles or a limp or a lisp, or living on minimum wage working at a Mcjob, etc. so, if anyone asks me to help them die, in a heartbeat I would”
Who said that?

What @flo? No one on this thread said that.

Where did you get that I meant in this thread?

Well, I’m trying to answer your question. A source would be nice. I’ll google it.

Apparently no one said that.

@Dutchess_III

1)Edited: I was asking the question. Really though, it doesn’t matter that much if it was Mary that said that, or Bob, or whoever.
2) No one can say nobody said that because in a few seconds or days and days of Google search is not adequate. Only an omni-present thing can know that nobody said that.

Ok, then what was the point you were trying to make?

@Coloma _“No amount of “pressure” would make someone choose to die unless it was what they really wanted” ”
If I sense that some family “friend” wants me to die, in addition to my sickness, it wouldn’t make me feel depressed and/or suicida? Even becoming poor makes you suicidal.

Anyway, this thread has gone up in smoke. We have three people seriously talking about killing off poor people and getting rid of current existing safeguards against people killing themselves. Apparently mental illness doesn’t exist and the only people on earth who want to kill themselves are these very rational people who have carefully thought everything out and just can’t live their lives poor.

And then don’t even ask me wtf flo is going on about.

I’m out of here..this thread has become a parody of itself.

@keobooks Don’t. Your posts are great, plus.

@keobooks while you and I might not agree on the Death with dignity issue, I feel you are totally right about this question and the way it’s going.
but just before we leave who are the ones talking about offing the poor people?
Death with dignity should only be an option for terminal people only, anyone else will just have to deal with life,like the rest of us over worked, under paid,not appreciated, taxed to death people.

@SQUEEKY2
permalink You might have missed that.
“Death with dignity should only be an option for terminal people only.”

There have been many stories about patients, who have been misdiagnosed whether it is as having “terminal illness” or not.

@flo So I guess for that reason alone Death with dignity should not be an option, and everyone should stick around on this shit pile till God says they can leave?
Is that about right?
There have been huge stories about misdiagnosed patients, hospitals doing the wrong operation and so on, so what does that have to do with the death with dignity issue?

There probably lots of terminally ill people that will choose to stick around to the very end, and as long as it is their wish then good for them.
But there is also alot of people suffering from some debilitating illnesses and would rather not go the very end, what are you going to tell those people?
Sorry but your going to have to stay till the end?
I would want that choice to opt out early.

@keobooks Whoa there, I never said to “kill off the poor” do not twist what I was saying into a false statement.
I SAID being abjectly poor with no hope of changing your circumstances and facing homelessness is a good enough reason for one to check out if they so desire. Where the heck did you get I am advocating killing poor people? OMG, back up the bus girl!
I also never said there was no such thing as mental illness only that depression and a desire to expire can be the result of situations that have no solution, therefore said person has a right to determine whether or not they wish to stick around in the face of no hope of things changing.

You are not out of here because of anything being discussed, you are out of here because you can’t be open minded enough to admit that there are plenty of cases where one could choose suicide from a place of lucidity and conscious choice minus mental illness. This is a very valid position and I don;t agree that everyone that wants to die has to be suffering from a mental condition.

@flo If you are that easily influenced by anothers opinions then you need to do some self esteem work. Just because someone told me I should go jump off a bridge doesn’t mean I would do it. I choose my fate, nobody else.

@SQUEEKY2 They want Death With Dignity, not doctors to kill them?

@flo In Oregon you meet with doctors and mental health professionals that make sure you understand what you are doing/asking for, prior to your condition ( terminal illness ) rendering you unable to make a lucid decision. You are then given enough barbituates that are mixed with juice or whatever liquids and they are on standby for the time you choose to go. Family members are allowed to mix them and serve you your death cocktail at the time you so desire.
This is NOT doctors killing you, this is assisted intervention so one can go with gently at peace with dignity and not have to starve themselves to death or worse, shoot themselves or any other manner of painful and degrading methods of dying.

Watch the great documentary ” The right to die in Oregon” and see how it is done.
It showcases several dying patients and it is very moving. Helping someone we love to die is the greatest gift we can ever give.

I would rather read this:
http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/humanrights/endoflife/media-release-key-concerns-6Feb2015

I wonder if they ask them if they realize there is nothing on the other side. Nothing.

@flo Well then, clearly you are opposed to the right to die with dignity.
I am not and I absolutely agree with all of these propositions and especially #4 .
Psychological suffering is suffering and if someone wishes to be done, I support that.
If people who are suffering from serious psychological issues that cannot be remedied by medications or therapy and they are living in a state of constant emotional torment, yes, they should be allowed to die if they so choose.
I decided a long tome ago that if I get a terminal condition I am going for quality of life over quantity and would refuse invasive treatment.

I’d rather have 3 good months than 3 years of extreme suffering undergoing all sorts of treatments that will only delay the inevitable and cause more suffering.
No thanks, just give me some morphine and let me sit in the sun and enjoy my final months until I am ready to drink the Kool Aide.

This kind of reminds me of that 17 year old who refused chemo for her cancer. I looked for an update, couldn’t find one. However, I learned something I didn’t know before and that is the chemo will be done by the time she turns 18.

….or the following article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/belgium-euthanasia_b_4338823.html

Here is another one.

@Dutchess_III I don’t get it.

@flo Again, I agree, people should be able to die for whatever reasons they wish. The Third Reich?.
Hogwash.
This is about the individual deciding, not being exterminated by a dictators order. Pffft!

That article is sensationalizing a progressive and humane movement. Nobody is going to allow a broken hearted teenager to kill themselves, but a 64 yr. old that wants to be done, yes indeed, let them be done. Again, this is about the right to CHOOSE and not to have anyone else determining what level of suffering one should live with.
There ARE things worse than dying, and living ( existing ) in chronic pain, physical or emotional makes the short list IMO.

This has nothing to do with whether or not life is difficult, it has to do with nobody having the right to determine what YOUR difficult tolerance should be.
I believe in humane and merciful euthanasia for our animals and I believe the same for humans, which are only animals as well with one small difference, we can make independent choices about our fate that cats and dogs cannot.
I would agree with right to choose counseling for those that are not suffering from chronic pain, chronic mental health issues, chronic disability or terminal illness and a waiting period, otherwise, I agree everyone has a right to chose. We didn’t ask to be born but we can choose our deaths as we see fit.

@Coloma Are you reading the article in my last post?

It’s similar in that she, in effect, was choosing to die rather than have the chemo.

…The following paragraph from that link:

“In the U.S. state of Oregon, legal physician-assisted suicides are not required to be supervised [12] and the doctor is rarely present [13]. Data are based entirely on physician self-reporting [14] and information on individual cases is not available even to the police.[15] This opens the door to abuse of older and vulnerable citizens.”

@flo Yes, and while the author says she won’t have her right to live dictated by a doctor or government I say I won’t have my right to die dictated by a doctor or government.
As far as your above post…while this is true, what is not true is that the patient HAS to be fully aware of their condition and conscious and lucid in making their decision to terminate their life and then they are provided with the means to do so. The odds of this being abused by a family member is practically non-existent as the patient is being provided with the means due to a prognosis of imminent death within a matter of a few months at most.
The person HAS to be able to drink and swallow the medication so it is highly unlikely that they could be forced or coerced against their will. You can’t force feed a comatose person this medication.

I am done, with this post @flo you clearly think that it is wrong, so you want it ended for every one that is freakin scary.

I stand by I think that it is wonderful for those who want it, but you do not,those people according to you must suffer till the end, guess the medical team taking care of them wont have to worry about their BMW payments.
It’s not like your locked into it if you change your mind, good grief, let people decide on their own how they want off this FUCKING SHIT PILE, if I had a chance to end it before a lay in a bed shitting and drooling on myself.

@keobooks

Who is talking about killing off poor people? Frankly, if you can’t present your argument without building strawmen then perhaps you should recuse yourself from further discussion.

She did that, a long time ago @Darth_Algar

Who did that a long time ago? And what relevance does it have to this thread?

She recused herself from further discussion a long time ago.

Yes, I know what she posted. Is there a reason for you going on about it?

Because you said, 5 posts above, ”Frankly, if you can’t present your argument without building strawmen then perhaps you should recuse yourself from further discussion.” I simply pointed out that she already had left, long before you posted that snarky, nasty shite.

Boy, this discussion has people turning into serious bitches, hasn’t it.

Haha..I only turn into a bitch when I am extremely passionate about something, this is one of like 2 hardcore opinions I hold. Right to die and animal cruelty, otherwise, 50 shades of gray to everything else.

@Dutchess_III

Yes, I am fully aware that she stated she was leaving the thread (and, of course, we all know that when someone says they’re leaving a thread they always do) that’s why I said that. Frankly I’d still like to hear her answer for who in this thread is talking about killing off poor people.

@Darth_Algar She is referring to my sharing that if I were to find myself living in abject poverty and facing homelessness and health problems in my old age that I would choose to self combust.
I said that I also consider ones financial independence or lack thereof to be a viable reason for the self checkout line. haha
That somehow morphed into I am advocating “killing off poor people” in general. 0–0

@keobooks I’m not the one who posted to you …’‘WTF is your problem anyway?’’

Let’s let it go. Kebooks isn’t here. She’s still in the building, but has quit this thread.

See if this article has something.

Breitbart? Might as well link to an article from wejustmakeshitup.com.

Go ahead and post a link that is credible.

A link for what? My opinion on the matter?

I take full responsibility for the “WTF is your problem anyway?” To be perfectly clear.

@Darth_Algar Since according to you Breitbart isn’t credible, which site on the anti-side, would you suggest is most credible. You must have been trying to see what the opposing side is saying, which site do you use?

@flo

Sorry, but it’s not my job to find credible arguments for you. Do your own homework.

This site has both pro and con arguments for and against assisted suicide. Each subtopic on the site has the pro on one side and con on the other. The sources are all cited. Each cited source is rated 1–5 stars according to how credible the source is.

Thanks for the link @keobooks , but the con side sounded very weak in a few of those ,and in one sounded stupid, to down right fear mongering.
It is good to hear both sides,we are just going to have to come to the fact we are at a stale mate over this, but I do see your reasoning to how this could be abused, but again with the right regulations I think they could curb that.
So I will waste no more time trying to convince you or Flo this could be a God send for those who truly want it.
I would truly want it but guess I can’t according to the NO side, people I guess must suffer right to the end, even if it is against their wishes because the NO side is afraid that right could be abused on someone who doesn’t want it. SO no one can have it, good sound reasoning that sound good to you?

I think, again, the driving point is…definition of quality of life is a very individual thing and nobody can, or should, even attempt, to define what anothers quality of life is, or should be.
Right now I have a friend who is living with Devics syndrome, similar to MS.
Lesions develop on your spinal cord and brain stem and result in varying degrees of chronic pain and other neurological symptoms. At any given time if a lesion develops on in a critical area of the brain stem or spinal cord it could result in respiratory failure, complete paralysis or sudden death.

She undergoes chemo treatments several times a year and takes daily class 2 pain killers and suffers from various symptoms depending on the day. Good days, bad days. On her good days she can ride her horse, be quite active, on her bad days she is in bed in pain.
She is 46 years old and has been living with this for 15 years now.
When and if the time comes that she is completely paralyzed, incontinent, and other horrors of this disease and she wants to let go, I sure as hell hope her wishes are honored by legislation.

I hope her wishes are met as well @Coloma but they wont if the NO side gets there wish,according to them everyone MUST suffer to the very end.

@SQUEEKY2 Ugh…maddening to me, just maddening!

And I as well @Coloma but we can’t take the risk of this right being abused(that I think proper regulation would correct any chance that it could be abused) but that said since there is a chance so no one will get it, we must suffer till the very end even if it means laying in a bed shitting and drooling on ourselves oh what a great life we lead..

Ya know I wonder if these anti-Death with dignity people are for the death penalty for criminals?

@Darth_Algar See how @keobooks put on that link? Is she doing the other side’s homework? No. It is about learning (all of us) and not about fighting, digging in our heels at all cost. It is nothing personal.
@SQUEEKY2 re. ”...your religious upbringing” provide some source?

@SQUEEKY2 Edited to remove):There is another site with I think with the word “debate” in it, similar to the one @keobooks posted and it makes the anti side really weak sounding. It might be a pro side’s website.

@SQUEEKY2 still Death with Dignity? It is “Doctor assisted suicide” Factual.

OK fine I have no problem with a Doctor assisted suicide, IF that is the persons wish,I just wonder why you have such a problem with it?
A lot nicer and peaceful than blowing your brains out with a 357.
You don’t have to take the prescription if you change you mind.
Why do you have such a problem with it?

Okay…here’s my take.
Unless you are a hardcore religious nut that believes man is a superior being, created in the likeness of another superior being the bottom line is…...we are nothing but organisms. Not any different than any other living organism on the planet. Cats, dogs, parrots, horses, oak trees, minnows, mosquitoes, maggots.

More than 50% of all life forms die within the first year of their lives.
Other species have no issue with death, it is humans that assign names and identities to themselves and all the “shoulds and shouldn’ts” as to what should or should not happen as a human. We “should” not outlive our offspring, but often we do.
We “should” not die young, but often we do.

We “should” live to a ripe old age, but often we don’t.

Humans are the only species, “blessed’ with these abundantly big brains that have decided that, somehow, death “should” not happen for any reason, short of dying in our sleep at 104 and that somehow our lives are just SO significant that, “God” forbid, we might actually have to come to terms with the FACT that our organisms just aren’t that special in the grande scheme of things and that death happens, period. Young, old, in between and if we can help a fellow travelers journey be a little less painful we “should” and if we decide to get in line at the self checkout, we “should” be able to decide that’s the line we want to be in.

There you have it.

Nice answer @Coloma I agree.

@flo, @keobooks posted that link for her own reasons, not because anyone asked her to. You are asking me to provide links that support your point of view. That I will not do. It’s on you to defend your own argument, not for others to do so at your asking.

I am really really gone from here. Pay no attention to the (wo)man behind the mirror…

I just saw @flo asking for links and gave her the most credible source I could find. NO it is NOT biased for assisted suicide. That’s a website that has several issues on it—not just euthenasia (which they include assisted suicide in that topic) I’ve recommended that site to dozens of kids who were writing opinion papers about all sorts of things over the years.

I checked out the site and it has an equal number of credible and not so credible sources for both sides of the debate for each topic.

It’s hard to find arguments that are compelling to people who don’t agree with the premise in the first place. You’re NOT going to find an answer that’s going to bowl everyone over and change their minds. Sorry. Opinions don’t work like that.

Now, I’m musing over my own opinions after reading about some women with dementia who are living MUCH longer than they planned to because they didn’t have the wherewithall to commit suicide when they were physically and mentally able to. Now they are just wandering around, mere husks of themselves and begging for food when they are hungry (These women all wanted to starve to death when they were at a certain physical and mental disability) I really thought people would be able to do themselves in without assistance in all cases. These women cannot.

It hasn’t totally changed my mind about the system being set up for abuse, but it does make me think.

Now @keobooks wouldn’t it have been better for these women, that clearly wanted off this happy merry go round, to have had the option of Death with dignity(Doctor assisted suicide) instead of the with holding food and drink which seemed to be their only option and a very horrible death??
They were of sound mind when they made that choice, now they walk around crying and begging for food lot’s of dignity there,NOT!
I would think of instead of wanting to down right ban the option of Doctor assisted suicide, get on the bus and make real sure that it is regulated , and legislated properly so the abuse that you are afraid of is not at all, or very minimal,that is a team I could get behind, not just no.

An aside…my Mom’s dementia got so bad she ended up bedridden, unable to communicate. She lived in that vegetative state for months, until one day…she refused to eat. When they tried to spoon food in her mouth she just clamped her teeth down hard. There was some suggestion of putting her on life support, but in the end they accepted her unspoken wish to just die already.
To this day I wish I could know what was going on in her mind, a mind that she didn’t even seem to have for all those months.

Who knows if that was a conscious choice? People with Alzheimer’s do tend to get to a point where they can’t swallow anymore. At that point, they may automatically refuse to open their mouths for food and may even spit it out if forced to eat.

It’s a really dismal life. And none of these women wanted to live like that. But because they lost their faculties, they can’t get out of it. And legally, they wouldn’t even be allowed help anyway in ANY US State at this point.

That’s why I plan on checking out prior to the bitter end. If I was diagnosed with Alzheimers or progressive dementia I would plan my exit within a few months. No way am I going to be in a helpless state like that. I am far too independent, physically and mentally to end up like that, no way, no how. Better to check out sooner rather than later IMO.

@keobooks I just read the first paragraph of your post and needed to respond to it before I go on. “I just saw @flo asking for links and gave her the most credible source I could find. NO it is NOT biased for assisted suicide..”
You’re misunderstanding me, I was referring to a site that has similar format as the one you posted, but only in appearance. I say in my post ”There is another site with I think with the word “debate” in it,”_ The word “debate” is not in the url of the link that you posted, so why would you think that I was referring to your link?
By the way, I was responding to the statement in @Darth_Algar‘s post. about how one site makes the pro side weak.

Now I’ll go back to reading the rest of the post/s.

Yes this is a problem, some people suffer and they are incapable of doing it themselves. But that can’t mean that the solution has to be that the doctor is the one who should to do it. Conflict of interest.

In my post above, I take back:
“It is about learning (all of us) and not about fighting, digging in our heels at all cost.” That really is doesn’t belong in this particular thread.

@flo Don’t ya think the Doctor is the one with the experience, and knowledge to know how to do it quickly and painlessly?
Who do you think should do it if it is the persons wish, the plumber?

@flo

Where, exactly, is the conflict of interest?

Hippocratic oath is likely what she’s talking about. She’s wandered into territory I can’t defend. I don’t think you can support assisted suicide, but not support doctors doing it. I mean who else would do it? You want to create a position called thanotologist who does nothing but preside over assisted suicides? That’s ridiculous. He’d go broke because he’d have nothing to do for most of his career.

Doctors used to be forbidden to do surgery because of the Hippocratic oath. They would call on the local barber to do the cutting. Now doctors perform surgery on a regular basis. I’m sure the Hippocratic oath can bend some more to accommodate assisted suicide.

It’s not a good argument @flo . You need to do better than that.

The Hippocratic Oath is an antiquated (seriously antiquated) idea anyway. Doctors aren’t required by law to take it and many med schools don’t even use it anymore. Those that still do simply do so out of tradition and not as a condition of graduating.

@keobooks I see your fear about this subject, and the fact it could be abused makes me sick as well, because as I stated many times for those that would meet the guide lines it would be a god send for them if it is their wish.

I fail to see where @flo is coming from and her being ok with it, on one hand but saying Doctors can’t do it makes no sense what so ever.

I’m THINKING, @SQUEEKY2 . Just lemme think.

I do remember that people used to argue that there would be wide scale eugenics mandated by insurance companies if abortion were legal. Supposedly, insurance companies were going to require mothers to get fetuses tested for disorders or diseases and if they had any, require abortion and/or refuse to cover the disabled baby. That has not happened. There is a small scale of self imposed eugenics, but nobody forces women to have abortions to get rid of disabled people.

Now abortion and assisted suicide are two different issues, but it does make me think. Forty years ago, some activist groups said this would be happening by now and it’s not.

But I’m still going to think about it. There are no elections over this right now, nor will there be in my area for a good long time. So I can reserve my opinion about it for at least a decade or two.

Oh and if I do seriously change my mind, I likely won’t say anything here about it. I took a lot of serious flack over this, getting called names and lots of stuff that wasn’t technically flaming but was pretty damned mean. I don’t want anyone to think that being nasty and rude won me over. I also don’t feel like having those people be smug and “I-told-you-so” to me.

Again I take back my:
”But that can’t mean that the solution has to be that the doctor is the one who should to do it.” I guess I can see how it could sound like I could support it as long as it is another position created just for that. No way because the result would be the same, just indirect. I meant there is a major distance between here is a problem, and this is the solution.

Why should it not be a doctor? Who else besides a doctor would be qualified?

@keobooks Your earlier posts spectacular, indicating clear headedness.
“I don’t want anyone to think that being nasty and rude won me over.” Okay.

@Darth_Algar Why repeat ourselves? No need.

Where’s the repeating? You’ve never answer the question of why it should not be a doctor.

http://www.fluther.com/178883/how-likely-is-it-that-canada-lifting-the-ban-on-assisted/

http://www.fluther.com/166503/is-assisted-suicide-esp-doctor-assisted-an-oxymoron/
http://mdwhistleblower.blogspot.ca/2009/09/physician-assisted-suicide.html

@flo

Pretend, for a moment, that I do not feel like pouring over old threads hoping to find some answer you may be alluding to and please just answer the question in this thread, where it’s relevant.

@Darth_Algar I wasn’t responding to you there. The OP/all the Q&As are not just about you or just me.

@flo You must realize that if you cannot be bothered to read through your own source material to form a statement in your own words, those of us who don’t agree with you certainly will not want to do it for you.

We can’t be expected to hold up both sides of the argument.

@flo

So you posted those, what, just for sheer randomness?

@dappled_leaves Hi-lie-ree yes. “to form a statement in your own words,” as if my words would be more impressivethan the experts/professionals on those sites.

You could paraphrase, @flo, and just provide the link for back up.

@keobooks Just to be clear, I apologize if some of my passion about this subject seemed to be “personal”, it was not, and is not. For what it’s worth I like you just fine, what little I know of you and this particular hot topic aside I enjoy your contributions elsewhere. My position is that all humans have the right to decide when to end their lives for whatever reasons but I am aware that there are many kinks to be worked out.
Here, have an olive branch. :-)

Also, if it makes you feel any better @Darth Algar and I have not been known for our warm and fuzzy relationship here, but, lo and behold, we find some common ground in this arena, who’d have thunk? My frustrations at not being heard and understood are what pushes me, on occasion. to throw up my hands and exclaim WTF! There..now that that’s settled I am going to go back to my observation point and observe todays unfoldings.

@Dutchess_III My answer to @dappled_leaves

@flo There is nothing hilarious about it. I don’t feel like reading pages of material just to find out which sentence is meaningful to you in relevance to the point that you want to make. That expectation is unreasonable.

@flo I have to agree with the others at least go back and cut and paste what you meant here.
I see @keobooks point on this topic I simply fail to see yours.;

@Coloma I was more talking about someone in another thread but thanks.

@keobooks ?

I was talking about getting personal attacks that were enough on topic that they weren’t technically flames in another thread on the same topic.

@keobooks @Coloma is probably rolling her eyes, and laughing her head off at your last 2 posts.

@dappled_leaves et al,
Questions in the poll ridiculuously biased for pro ( I indicated below it) “Palliative care is not always available for people who need it.” Therefore, working at making it available is the solution not the baby is crying so let’s throw it with the bath water.

I’d like to assist this thread in committing suicide! Just kidding. Interesting to watch and glad I’m not in the middle of it for once.

@Dutchess_III Haha..pull the plug!

I give up!!!!!!!

and @SQUEEKY2 goes out with a, well, squeek. lol

Will this discussion be revived or is it on a DNR order now?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ana-acton/the-progressive-case-agai_1_b_5648126.html

I see a lot of assumptions and a lot of claims in that link with nothing to back them up. The author makes no compelling argument for her case. Indeed she makes pretty much no argument at all. She merely rattles off a list of names, does not bother to substantiate anything in her post and expects the read to just accept that it is as she says it is.