Last question on same-sex union and marriages, hopefully, can you find it in the Bible where God allows it the same as married men and women, that is all you have to do. [details inside]?

The problem, @Hypocrisy_Central , is that you take the Bible as the word of god. And as such, you (because of your religion) are forced to believe it – in all or in part, because you adhere to your religion.

What you’re not acknowledging is that there are many of us who do not share your beliefs, who do not accept the bible as the word of god, who would never take it literally, and further realize that the bible is frequently ambiguous, self-contradictory, and inconsistent.

I have read the bible (the Tanach) several times. Good reading, decent stories, but hardly something that can be relied on as laws for life.

So I’m not playing the “show me where in the bible blah-blah-blah appears” game. Doing so would imply that I accept your bible as some sort of authority. And I don’t.

I don’t think you can find that in the Bible. There’s a lot of stuff you can’t find in the Bible that is OK. Like airplanes!

And sometimes there are principles in the Bible that we can think about and apply to our lives, too.

I’ll get right on that as soon as you point me to the place in the Bible where it says it is ok to mow the lawn, use the U.S. Postal Service, surf the Internet, and use fossil fuels to run my car. In other words even the most ardent Christian doesn’t make sure that every choice they make is explicitly discussed and allowed in the Bible. Therefore your question is ridiculous.

None of that is in there. I’ve looked.

That would prove nothing.

May I suggest you take a few logic courses.

If you are asking about finding passages in the King James Version, written in the early 1600s, then you need to take a look at its history. The key is in the last statement: However, history shows that they were successful in creating a translation that not only met the needs of their generation, but also succeeded in influencing the lives of generations to come.

The language used in the KJV was customized to meet the needs of the time. And this was a time when homosexuality was now looked upon as “abnormal” and “wrong”. This wasn’t the case in earlier eras.

Today, there are people who seek the truth about what the original transcripts (Dead Sea Scrolls) meant based upon the language they were written in and the culture of the time. Until the nay-sayers consider these with an open mind, then Christians will be missing the point of the purpose of Jesus.

If you you combine Matthew 6:14–15, Romans 3:23, and John 8:7, what you get is that it’s still a sin, but we are all sinners who are unfit to cast stones at others, and who must forgive the sins of others lest our own sins be judged. That point is slammed home by Matthew 7:1–3.

In short, it’s not that it isn’t immoral, but rather that it must be tolerated as it would be hypocritical to condemn it.

1)Jesus and Judas were alone in the grove.
2)Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss.

It was the Romans that laid down these laws via their own agendas and has nothing to do with “God.” If there is a God he/she/it would not have created gay people, which are genetically wired to be homosexual if he/she/it did not approve. Remember “God” supposedly makes no mistakes. That’s all I have to say, not at all interested in religion

What does the Bible have to do with law?

@syz That depends on where you live. In the United States, the two are separate by design, as per the intent of our Founding Fathers. In other places though, the Bible has a strong influence on what sort of laws the Legislative branch puts on the books, and affects how the Judicial branch interprets those laws when the Executive branch enforces them.
Given that marriage is a legal construct, the government has a vested interest in governing it, but as marriage also is seen by most religions to have a spiritual aspect, the Church also has a vested interest. Therefore, the views of the government regarding separation of Church and State become highly relevant, especially in those areas that don’t draw a line between the two.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One that is almost good enough reason to convert. How many times have I wanted to respond “it’s against my religion to mow” when someone asks why my lawn is so overgrown?

The term “sodomy” comes from the bible story of Sodom and Gomorrah, cities supposedly destroyed by “God.” “God” obviously didn’t like it!

Apparently, the Episcopalians found it, as well as the Presbyterians and the United Church of Christ.

@kritiper I’m not clear on what the point of your post is. Would you mind explaining?

@Hypocrisy_Central At this point, I think that if God himself floated down to earth on a cloud, landed in your front yard, and announced to you that he was ok with gay people getting married, you’d march up to him and tell him that he was wrong, and that he needed to get off your lawn.

I don’t understand why you keep asking several questions a day on this subject or a question closely related to this subject. You don’t act like you want to read any answers or better understand anyone’s opinion. You sound more like you’re really angry about the recent Supreme Court decision and you just want to gripe, complain and whine about it endlessly. You’re all butthurt over it. I get it. Asking all these questions over and over isn’t going to fix it.

Just suck it up and move on. The votes have been cast. You lost this one. Move on. Maybe if you’re a really good boy, God will let you toast marshmallows over our eternally flaming souls.

What the new testament passages actually say about homosexuality.

@Pied_Pfeffer It doesn’t make sense that the Bible would bless homosexuality when the Bible story of Sodom and Gomorrah condemns it. Just threw that out for others to consider.

@kritiper Ah, thank you. The demise of Sodom and Gomorrah isn’t about homosexuality.

The townsfolk, it was rumored, had become sinful for a variety of reasons. Greater detail of these sins are listed in other parts of the Bible. When these rumors reached God, he decided to check it out with two angels in tow. First, he made a pit stop at Abraham’s place where the two of them bargained over what should be the deciding factor (find 10 good people) should be in order to prevent complete destruction to the two cities. Once agreed upon, God sent the two angels in disguise to get the scoop and report back.

Once they reached Sodom, they were graciously taken in by Lot (Abraham’s son) who assumed that they were travelers. When the word spread that there were strangers staying at Lot’s, the townsfolk rioted and banged on Lot’s door demanding that he turn the outsiders over to them.

Now Lot knew that the townsfolk derived pleasure from humiliating outsiders, often in the form of public rape. Thus, he offered his virgin daughters as a substitute, hoping to send a message all the while knowing that they were highly unlikely to take up the offer because it wasn’t about sex; it was about humiliating strangers.

Here is a list of the reasons why the people of Sodom were punished. It isn’t about homosexuality; the threat of rape from a group of men against two other men was the catalyst.

Many people believe that the cities were cursed because they wanted to gang rape the Angels. Gang rape and sex between two consenting partners of any gender are two totally different things.

@pied_pfeffer beat me to the punch. I still think Lot was a rat bastard for offering up his daughters. Considering that he later had sex with them himself doesn’t make me want to give him any benefit of the doubt.

Also, while we’re on the subject. Why did his wife get turned into a pillar of salt for simply looking back at the city, but Lot himself offered up his daughters to rapists and had sex with him and he wasn’t turned into a pillar of anything?

I really hate all the stories about Abraham and all his screwy family members in Genesis. Why did God pick him to be the Father of Israel in the first place?

@keobooks Give Lot a break. He knew the village men weren’t out for sex. It was all about humiliating strangers. Did you ever see the movie “Deliverance”? Same scenario.

As for Lot having sex with his daughters, they were the ones who plotted to get him drunk and then rape him when he was passed out.

Oh yeah I forgot. It’s been 30 years or so since I sat down and read the whole book. I had to read the whole thing for 8th grade Bible studies. I probably have a lot of resentment over Abraham because I never wanted to be on that class in the first place.

Why did they escape turning into a salt lick for raping their own father?

Here is one theory. Here is mine: If God didn’t know what was going on in Sodom until rumors reached his ears, then he doesn’t know what is happening here on Earth unless he tunes in and/or has an angel reports it.

But what about the whole omnipresent/omnipotent deal? He’s supposed to be both, and if he didn’t know what was going on unless he sent an angel… What’s the deal?

Maybe the odd discrepancies have to do with this: my religious studies professor said that most biblical scholars agree that Genesis was originally four separate books that written at different times. The stories were mostly the same, so at some point in history(or a few points) the stories were all merged together into one book.

She said that it was most obvious to the casual Bible reader in the first 3 chapters of Genesis. The book begins with the creation myth. Immediately after that story is finished, the myth is retold again in the very next chapter. The story is basically the same, but has a few details that are different. It’s kind of interesting when you read those chapters and you discover it for yourself.

Anyway, Genesis has always bothered me. God seems to be omnipotent in some of the stories and not omnipotent in others. God seems to have complete knowledge of past, present and future in some passages, but then acts surprised by something that happens in another.

I like the Bible a lot. I forgive the times it seems to contradict itself from one book to the next. I try to remind myself that there were many different authors writing over several different time periods. This helps a lot. But not with Genesis. I’ve just never really liked that book. I’d even choose a real snoozer like Leviticus or Numbers over Genesis if I were pressed to pick a favorite between the two books.

@FlyingWolf @elbanditoroso @Coloma @syz @Pied_Pfeffer
Do you have ANY capacity to answer the question? Do you UNDERSTAND the question? Are you just blabbing because you have no answer to the question? It has to be one of those because the question is fairly simple to follow if one can read.

@bob There’s a lot of stuff you can’t find in the Bible that is OK. Like airplanes!
It wasn’t invented yet, but people having sex within the same sex were.

@tinyfaery May I suggest you take a few logic courses.
May I suggest a few reading courses, either you can’t read the question or you cannot read the instructions on how to answer the question you did not seem to read.

@Pied_Pfeffer If you are asking about finding passages in the King James Version, written in the early 1600s, then you need to take a look at its history. The key is in the last statement:
Use whatever Bible you believe you can find it, at least we will have some point on which to launch from, or you can talk and stall as so many have so far because they can’t find it and figure they will hijack the thread with incessant asinine babble. Find a Web translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls that says it, I do not care, I am just asking someone to find it since they believe it is true.

@jerv That point is slammed home by Matthew 7:1–3.
I would explain the exact application for that but this is not the thread for it, you can ask it in another thread and I will add some clarity.

In short, it’s not that it isn’t immoral, but rather that it must be tolerated as it would be hypocritical to condemn it.
Sin is not to be tolerated, however, this is not the threat to do that, and even if somehow man got the idea he had to be in the world and part of it, when told by God not to, it doesn’t say God is cool with it, sin is sin, and the Bible clearly states God cannot stand in the presence of sin.

@talljasperman You are better than that, that is too redacted to even comment on.

I don’t understand why you keep asking several questions a day on this subject or a question closely related to this subject.
I do not ask several questions a day. I have to redacted each question because just like this one, people cannot seem to read the question well enough to ANSWER the question so they hop on a soapbox and babble away because they have no answer.

You don’t act like you want to read any answers or better understand anyone’s opinion.
No, people act like they can’t read or understand the question. I have rarely heard an answer I can even consider serious enough to apply TO THE QUESTION, so I cannot act like I don’t want to read what no one is presenting because they have not presented it.

@dabbler What the new testament passages actually say about homosexuality.
Go to an online Bible, not no BS of what man says it should mean. If you can’t do that…..next!

Have to sort the rest of the trash later

@Hypocrisy_Central – sorry, not playing your game.

@Hypocrisy_Central Have you watched the video in the link I shared with you on another thread? You said that you would and report back.

“Sin is not to be tolerated”

Is that why so many Christians are intolerant?

@keobooks I still think Lot was a rat bastard for offering up his daughters. Considering that he later had sex with them himself doesn’t make me want to give him any benefit of the doubt.
That is why the Bible speaks of being sober minded, so no one can put stuff over on you when you are high as a kite or drunk as a skunk. Neither of those issues answers the question by having the Bible say ”Gay is OK” in the Word, not what some whack job tries to say it really means. Did you even try to look for that?

@elbanditoroso [… sorry, not playing your game.
Maybe that is your problem, you cannot comprehend that this not a game but a question, there is a difference. When you can get understand of the differences, then you can come back and join the conversation.

@Pied_Pfeffer Have you watched the video in the link I shared with you on another thread? You said that you would and report back.
Sorry to have had you on the hook this long, but I have not had time to see it all. I want to be able to sit and see it front to back with no stops as to not forgetting any of the early parts because they were days ago. We were moving our congregation to a new home in a rougher neighborhood, you know getting those hoodlums who know no God and killing themselves for street blocks they do not own, must be natural selection. ~~

@jerv Is that why so many Christians are intolerant?
No……*that is why* there are so many people with a reprobate mind. I can guess those with a reprobate mind will be after any who are intolerant of sin.

You make it look like you’re quoting @talljasperman , but those are my words.

Anyway, you claim people have offered NO answer. I’ve seen several different answers. Just because you don’t like the answers or you don’t believe the answers are correct -it doesn’t mean that no answer has been given at all.

You seem to to think everyone who answers in a way that you don’t like is simply babbling on a soap box. I’ve read some posts of yours where you’ve just wandered off a coherent train of thought and started going on about smurfs, carnival rides or T-Rex skeletons or whatever stray random thought comes into you’re head. You never explain what these analogies you make mean or how they have anything at all to do with what anyone else is talking about. And YOU complain about babble?

Even if you speak the truth, and no one is answering your questions at all, why do you keep asking them over and over? There’s that old quote, “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

———
So sorry that no answer has been found worthy of notice to the eyes of “The Believer” not everyone here is Christian, let alone “He who is too holy for the term Christian.” I’m starting to wonder what that people in your church think of that one. I’m also seriously wondering if you go to church at all. I’m not being snarky. I’m seriously wondering this. With these extremely strict rules and standards you have for yourself everyone else, how can you find a church worthy of your attendance?

You seem to hold mere ordinary average Christians in almost as much contempt that you hold for gays. I no longer think of you as a homophobe. I think you have equal disdain for just about everyone. When you die, you’ll have plenty of one-on-one time with God, seeing as you’re the only one who will be there to enjoy it.

Anyway, you claim people have offered NO answer. I’ve seen several different answers. Just because you don’t like the answers or you don’t believe the answers are correct -it doesn’t mean that no answer has been given at all.
How hard is it? Let’s see if you can follow this; if you asked someone where Bakersfield, Ca was on the map, and they went off talking about the Golden Gate Bridge, Sacramento, how straight I-5 is or how boring a road trip is on it, did they tell you were Bakersfield was, when all they had to do is look in the map? It wasn’t like it was something that could not be found. They can answer your question with how lovely the Russian River is but is that truly telling you where the city is, and if not, is it a real answer to your question? This thread only dealt with three things which can or cannot be found in the Bible, I stated in the details it was not about anything else, any other issues or things other thing that may or may not be in the Bible, just these three issues. I could not make it any simpler; even an 8 year old could understand that. If one can find it post it, if they can’t then I guess it doesn’t exist, suck it up, and quit whining or trying to manufacture an answer to fit what one wants it to say.

You seem to to think everyone who answers in a way that you don’t like is simply babbling on a soap box.
OK, you tell me what are they doing? If you asked someone something and the answer was simple like look in the TV guide, see what is on channel 3 at 8pm and they go off talking about monster trucks, or how corrupt Hollywood execs are, or how unfair the cable company is, what would you call it? Did they tell you what was on at 8pm on channel three? Maybe they can’t read or they are too stupid to comprehend they have to look in the TV guide for the answer, what?

I’ve read some posts of yours where you’ve just wandered off a coherent train of thought and started going on about smurfs, carnival rides or T-Rex skeletons or whatever stray random thought comes into you’re head
I have very pointed thoughts; I use illustration to simplify it for people who cannot seem to follow concepts that are quite simple.

You never explain what these analogies you make mean or how they have anything at all to do with what anyone else is talking about.
They don’t bother to ask, they just go off on another maneuver to duck, dodge, or hide from the issue, or at best manufacture something to fit them.

Having said that, it is a simple question, do you have anything by way of an answer to present? Did you even look to see if it is in a Bible, not on a Web site, but a Bible, any translation will do?

If you can’t tell the difference between reading a Bible and reading a map, then you’re SOL. If interpreting the Bible that easy, When do you think Google will come out an app that uses an automated algorithm to interpret text correctly?

I already told you that I not going to go on a verse slinging spree with you because it’s pointless. You don’t even accept my verses as an answer because you don’t deem them to be correct. I won’t play that rigged game again.

Also, big duhhhh here, but you do know that the Bible is available in its complete form in several different forms. Just because it’s an electronic format does not mean that it’s just website.

And just so you know, even when I post a website that contains scripture, I always check the verses out with the Bible itself to make sure the book, chapter and verse referenced are correctly cited. Just because a verse is quoted in a source outside the Bible, does not mean that the direct quote is inaccurate.

I only use websites when offering a scholars interpretation of a particular passage that is not my own interpretation. Just because you don’t agree with that interpretation does not mean that the verse itself was misquoted. It was most likely cut and pasted directly from the electronic version of the Bible itself.

Matthew 7:12 is still Matthew 7:12, no matter what website is linked to it. Don’t try to tell me that the entire verse loses all connection to the Bible once some guy cuts and pastes it into a website. I’ve never posted verses that didn’t exist. You seem to insinuate that I have.

If you can’t even accept real a Bible verses that have real reference numbers that correspond exactly to the verses in the bible, because they are in fact the exact same verses cut and pasted directly out of the Bible, I don’t know what to tell you. Apparently Bible verses don’t count as a valid answer unless you agree with them already.

So how about this. You tell me what the right answer is according to you. I will cut and paste it into my reply. Then I will be sure to have the correct answer—unless like Bible verses, it becomes invalid once it is copy and pasted.

@Hypocrisy_Central yes, I understand the question and it is ridiculous, my answer illustrates that perfectly.

Conservative Christians are tantruming because they are very unhappy that the Supreme Court has stated very clearly that the separation of church and state is alive and well. This question and your response to the answers are the Fluther equivalent to you lying on the ground pounding your fists and flailing your legs. Legal gay marriage is the law of the land now, deal with it.

@Hypocrisy_Central – but it is clearly a game for you.

You throw out these “prove it to me” challenges, based on YOUR reading of YOUR bible, and you tell people “show me where I’m wrong”. Then, when people give you answers (and my original answer was, in fact, a real answer to your spurious question), you say “no, that doesn’t address what I asked” or something else.

My impression is that you (or your god) is playing a whac-a-mole game. Every time someone responds to one of your so-called challenges, you change the rules of the game (or the board, to follow the game analogy) to as to tilt it in your favor.

Look, I get that religion is very important to you, and you can believe whatever you want.

What I do not respect is a person who uses their religion to jerk other people around. And that’s what I see this whole line of conversation as doing.

@Pied_Pfeffer Have you watched the video in the link I shared with you on another thread? You said that you would and report back.
I finally did get the chance to view that video; in fact I watched it twice. The first time I watched it I had some distractions and had to stop and restart it, I took a few notes, but the second time when I was able to view it more closely I was able to jot more notes down. What I will say, and I will get to a more complete breakdown later, is that he made an earnest effort to explain or way or exempt gay unions from immorality but if he loves Christ as much as he says, we would try to trust that Christ allowed him to be under that curse for a reason the will be used for the glory of God, or that he would in earnest asked Christ, whom he loves, to deliver him from it as to be in the correct dispensation that Christ set up for men and women. It may take a bit of time, certainly not two years, to show how those points were mostly misapplied, though he did get some correct.

@elbanditoroso […but it is clearly a game for you.
Giving someone enough ammo against Satan to save their soul is no game to me.

You throw out these “prove it to me” challenges, based on YOUR reading of YOUR bible, and you tell people “show me where I’m wrong”. Then, when people give you answers (and my original answer was, in fact, a real answer to your spurious question), you say “no, that doesn’t address what I asked” or something else.
That is the game other people are playing. I suspect if I asked them what the weather was like, they would go off talking about how the price of eggs have gone up, because they certainly can’t answer a question straight, or run away from their own threads when the heat gets hot. YOU, as well as other, try to disprove the bible when you don’t believe in it, use what you know, if you can, but you can’t because the science you know is half or more guess work anyhow. So keep patting yourselves on the back until you max out on each other, you still can’t prove there is no God.

My impression is that you (or your god) is playing a whac-a-mole game. Every time someone responds to one of your so-called challenges, you change the rules of the game (or the board, to follow the game analogy) to as to tilt it in your favor.
Is that the case of the ungodly taking context out of the Bible that has nothing to do with the question, flinging it against the wall hoping it sticks. It is others that keep playing ”show me” while asking some silly, asinine, insipid question along with looney comments. If it comes back to bite someone in the arse it is because they can’t make the point because there is none to be made.

What I do not respect is a person who uses their religion to jerk other people around. And that’s what I see this whole line of conversation as doing.
I asked a straight forward question and even explained how to do it, what happened is a bunch of people who can’t answer it, know they can’t answer it, so they try to hijack the thread with a bunch of soapbox grandstanding so they can pat themselves on the back and say ”good point, it has 5 lurve, that shows it has to be true”. I even said USE ANY ESTABLISHED TRANSLATION then we have somewhere to start but no one can even do that, as if they can’t read but they can blab about how fake the Bible is or how mean Christ is, if they can type all that drag and all those lies, I would suspect they can read a simple question; find this in the Bible, an 8 year old could do it. That is why it is IN GENERAL

@Hypocrisy_Central Thank you for taking so much time to really listen to the video and for responding back. That’s all I could fairly ask for and it is appreciated.

@Pied_Pfeffer Thank you for taking so much time to really listen to the video and for responding back. That’s all I could fairly ask for and it is appreciated.
I could have used the tried and true ”Fluther tactic” and dismissed it out right saying it is too long, it is bias from the start, I am not doing your homework for you, it is a bunch of redacted, etc. but how would I know what it said, good or bad, if I never took the time to listen, and then listen to how he tried to make his point, and do so with the idea that he might have something. At least he, unlike here, actually used the text and not just said, well it is untrue and if it is it shows bigotry. I am going to investigate some of the cites he made, then I will get back to you. Oh, after I play a game or three of Fluther whack-o-mole. ~~~

The DIDACHE really settles this because it was very early and based on the common reading of the Bible

The Didache
“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born” (Didache 2:2 [A.D. 70]).