How old is too old to "spank" your child?

I never did. Although I hit her now if she beats me at tetherball. It’s the only way I can win.

Well, I quit swatting by the time they were about 4. For one thing, they pretty much had learned all the important lessons by then. The other thing is that I learned of much better ways in teacher school, ways that didn’t involve corporal punishment. Those ways work best on older, more verbal kids, though.

It’s the only way you can win at anything when it comes to your daughter, @Rarebear!

I know, right? I’m still physically stronger and heavier than she is, but she can kick my ass in anything else that doesn’t involve a takedown. But she cheats by biting, so it’s even.

you don’t have to hit a child to teach a child to be respectful.

As soon as they feel pain.

I would never spank my child

64 .

“I know in the early 1960’s spankings were going on and the children that time seemed much more respectful than today.”

Violent crime rose during the 70s and 80s. That’s all those children who were spanked during the 50s and 60s.

I realise it’s a mere correlation, but let’s stop with this nonsensical pretence that today’s children are somehow worse than they used to be.

We are objectively living in better times on a whole series of metrics (apart from existential threats like anthropogenic climate change)—people are kinder, gentler, less violent, more tolerant, less racist, and less prejudicial than they have been in recent centuries—let alone the last few decades.

As for your question. It makes as much sense as asking when is the best time to stop kicking puppies.

@Kropotkin Crime did not rise because children were spanked! There were much more violent repercussions for children in the generations before.

Crime rose as the population increased, including the poverty stricken and angry displaced people.

I’m not a fan of spanking as a regular method of discipline but I am also not overly opposed to the occasional spanking in children between ages maybe 3–4 to 6–7. I would not spank a child after about the age of 7 and my own adult daughter had maaaybe two, over the knee, open handed spankings in her life around ages 4–5. 4 or 5 swats, no implements of any kind. through her clothes no bare bottom.
I was spanked with a hair brush, a wooden spoon and a yardstick a couple times as a child between maybe 5–9 years old. I didn’t grow up to be violent.

When mom whipped out her Coral colored wide hairbrush you paid attention. haha

@Dutchess_III I never said it did. Crime has also been falling for years, so it has nothing to do with population size.

Yes, you did. You said “Violent crime rose during the 70s and 80s. That’s all those children who were spanked during the 50s and 60s.”. The spankings had nothing to do with it. As I said, punishment in past generations was much harsher. There were other factors contributing to the violence, not the spankings.

If it’s dropping it’s because we managed to get a handle on those other reasons and do something about them.

You are never too old to punch your kid in the face.

@Dutchess_III Way to miss a point.

I also followed with “I realise it’s a mere correlation.” In other words, I am not making a causal association between spanking and criminality. My point was that spanking doesn’t make children more “respectful”.

I said what I said because I think it’s a myth that children were “more respectful”. Crime is just one indicator. We supposedly had all these “respectful” children who were more likely to grow up being criminals. Some respectfulness.

Yet crime has fallen. Spanking is less frequent, and our children are somehow growing up to be more decent humans than compared to decades ago.

Right. Sure. They’re growing up to be rude, entitled adult assholes.

“They’re growing up to be rude, entitled adult assholes.” – every old person in history

Well, I’m 62, and though I haven’t done it in a long while, I suppose that with a little bit of exercise and warmup beforehand (so to speak), I could still manage it.

Age 3–4

My mom never spanked me and my sister has never spanked her kids. Hitting your kids is a pretty lazy way of getting what you want.

I think if you’re a really young parent and don’t have a clue about how to discipline children, then I could see spanking being used more frequently. As the parent ages he/she should use tools like evidence/research to realize that violence isn’t the right way to discipline children.

And it is best to teach your children that violence doesn’t get you what you want.

Gosh, before my girlfriend and I were ever married (to other people) we discussed child raising. She said she’d never spank her children. I said, I knew I’d spank mine, if the situation called for it (I was spanked a handful of times as a kid. Always had to wait till my father got home, though That was the worst part!) My friend just thought that the fact that I’d spank my kids was horrible.
When all was said and done, we got married and had kids, I actually did spank my kids a few times.
A few times I saw my friend slap the shit out of her kids. They were little, too. It was horrifying to me. But she never spanked them, something she bragged about.

I think that out-of-control slapping, punching, hitting is abuse, even if it doesn’t leave a mark. I think if you whack a kid just because you’re angry and frustrated, that’s abuse. I think that verbally insulting a child is abuse and can do as much damage as physical abuse.

@Dutchess_III Agreed. A calm, matter of fact mild spanking is not even close to the out of control behaviors of a lot of parents. Screaming, yelling, slapping, yanking around. I too knew a women that constantly verbally insulted her kids but felt that she was somehow above it all because she didn’t spank. Go figure, some peoples rationale.

“When diplomacy fails, there is only one alternative: Violence.
Force must be applied without apology. It is the Starfleet way” – Warlord Janeway

@Dutchess_III That’s a strawman. No-one here is calling for spanking to be replaced by harsher (physical) violence.

What @longgone? That came out of thin air. I don’t understand the reasoning behind your comment.

I dont think spanking is right. I was never spanked, nor was my brother. You shouldn’t have to hurt someone to teach them respect. Children mirror their parents behaviour, parents should be a good role model. If someone is violent to their child, the child may become violent. There are still many respectful kids these days, not many adults seem to underdtand that teenagers can be nice.

Spankings don’t hurt. At least the ones I administered didn’t. And I didn’t administer them violently, either.

I’ve already shared my sentiments but…just had to say, I was just sitting on the porch watching a neighbors mama cow and her little bull calf that was born last week. Mama gave the baby a big shove with her head when he was scampering around her being a little reckless. haha No harm , just a reminder to simmer down. lol

@Dutchess_III Well, I’m always confused when people bring up that spanking is not the worst thing to happen to a kid. I don’t believe many people are naive enough to think so. As to “spankings don’t hurt” – that is just not true. You can tell me that yours didn’t hurt, and I can believe that…but the generalization is false.

I think most of us here on Fluther, who have administered swats, or spankings, have specified that it was under controlled circumstances, not flying off the handle anger. I can’t imagine it hurting, getting an open handed swat on a diaper padded butt.

@Dutchess_III It certainly is scary though, this person you love and trust so completely is now acting with violence and aggression towards you. It’s particularly pathetic because using a “naughty step” is much more effective and doesn’t violate the trust between the child and the parent.

There you go, assuming that the parent turns violent and aggressive. I imagine a red faced parent screaming, screaming, shrieking at their kids, totally out of control and enraged, and then just knocking the shit out of them.

When I was growing up, spankings were administered calmly. The few spankings my kids got were administered calmly too, as reinforcement for whatever really bad thing they had done that they must not do again.

@Dutchess_III I’m talking about a calm person hitting their child mildly. That is STILL an act of violence. You wouldn’t want you child doing that to me, you wouldn’t want me doing that to you. It’s not acceptable behavior, therefore it’s wrong to do it to children. Hitting/swatting/firm patting etc. is wrong.

Well, there is this thing called “natural consequences,” and “logical consequences.” Kids learn best from consequences, so if at all possible, let them learn “the hard way” not to do a certain thing.
For example, a couple of weeks ago my husband and I and my son and his wife and 4 kids, went on a nature walk. The four year old wanted to take her small bottle of water with her. I advised her to leave it in the truck because she would get tired of carrying it. She insisted. I said, “OK.”
Well, half way through the 45 minute walk she tried to offload the bottle on her little sister!
I said, “Nope. You have to carry it all the way back to the truck,” and she did.
She kept setting it down to go look at something, and I reminded her to go back and get it when she was done.
Bet she leaves her whatever in the truck on the next nature walk.
That’s a natural consequence.

However, if “the hard way” can involve injury or death there needs to be a logical consequence that leaves an impression. If a swat on a well diapered butt of a non verbal toddler gets the point across not to step off a curb into the street, well, that’s better than being hit by a car, although that would teach the kid that lesson too.

@Dutchess_III I’m 100% with you on the first part. The second part is unnessecary. In addition to teaching not to step off the curb it also teaches the child that big can hit small, that violence is a tool for getting what you want, etc. It also teaches that it’s ok to be hit by another person. I don’t think any of those are good lessons to teach a child. There are alternatives to spanking/swatting/striking a child. Do you really think kids that aren’t spanked are more likely to be hit by cars?

Kids who are not quickly and decisively reprimanded for doing something dangerous, like stepping off a curb, are more likely to be hit by a car. Whether it’s a swat or just scaring the shit out of them. Saying, “No no no no, sweetheart. That is bad bad,” and reasoning with a non verbal toddler, just doesn’t get it.

My daughter was only 16 when she had her first baby. I mention this because she just wasn’t mature enough, really, to have a child, but there you have it.
When he was almost 3 my daughter was talking to a friend in their front yard. I was parked by the curb, waiting for them. My grandson started kind of wandering away from his mom, and toward the street, glancing back every few seconds to see if Mom was watching, because he knew not to step off that curb. He was testing her. She chose to not notice.
He didn’t realize, I, guess, that I was right there, watching him. He got closer and closer. He paused at the curb…then stepped off, right in front of my car.
The instant his foot hit the street I laid on my horn. He was only about 2 feet from me. Scared the living shit out of everyone. Ryan fell down and started crying, my daughter absolutely panicked for a few seconds.

She was quite angry with me for scaring her like that.

WELL JESUS FUCKING CHRIST IT COULD HAVE BEEN A MOVING CAR AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN FOR REAL!

Again, I imposed a logical consequence, rather than waiting for the natural consequence to be discovered.
I suppose you think that’s really mean too, @gorillapaws.

Being a parent isn’t always sugar and spice. Not if you want them to learn to navigate this world safely.

By the time they’re strong enough to hit you back, I’d say it’s time to stop. My parents never spanked me, but it certainly becomes inappropriate after a certain age regardless. At 16 I was already taller and stronger than my mom so I don’t think she would’ve been able to do it even if she had wanted to.

Dom, no one I know spanks their kids until they’re 13 or 14 years old! By that age they should already know pretty much every thing they should know about staying safe and alive. We’re talking about toddlers, here. Kids <5, who don’t know a cobra from a worm. Good to see you DK!

@Dutchess_III You said on a previous question that you were (I think) ten or eleven when you realized spankings “don’t hurt”. This means that the years before, you thought they did hurt. Also, if they don’t hurt or scare the kid, how are they a deterrent?

You tell me @longgone. Keep in mind this is a serious situation. One that could kill or maim him for life. He could lose limbs. He could lose his eye sight. He could become brain damaged. Any number of things could happen, all of them horrible. If the way you handle it doesn’t make a lasting impression, he’ll do it again, only Gramma might not be around to field it next time.
I think that compared to the literal, possible consequences, a horn in his face was minor and it sure as hell made an impression.
But, I know. It was just so mean of me. So, what would you do?

@Dutchess_III Was that response meant for me? Because I have no problem with the horn thing.

I misunderstood. What do you mean ”...if they don’t hurt or scare the kid, how are they a deterrent?”?

Let me answer what I think you meant.
Well, it’s the idea more than anything. Like, if I got in bad trouble as a kid (which was rare) I would have to go to my room and wait for Dad to come home, and he would administer said spanking.
The waiting and the dreading was the worst part. Worst than the spanking. But it was the idea, “Oh, God. I’m going to get a spanking…” that did me in.

Here is a perfect example, and one I use to this day:
I once had a sub job as a music teacher. This meant I had a different class every hour. Of course, kids see a sub and they think “party time.” I usually got them turned around and flying right within 5 minutes so we could get some work done.

I did NOT ever rely on “I’m going to tell your teacher!” I wanted them to respect me in my own right, and they did.

However, one day this 3rd grade class came in. They were perfect. They sat down. They were quiet. Then the teacher, Mrs. Perkins, left. The kids started fidgeting, of course. Something about the way the came in, the deference to their teacher made me curious.
For the first time (and last) I said, “Hey, if you start getting crazy I’m going to tell your teacher.”

The room froze!!!

I was like, “What thee hell?”

Then I asked one of the kids, “Well, what would happen if I told Mrs. Perkins?”
She said, SHE’D PERKINIZE US!!! The rest of the class was nodding their heads madly. Quietly, but madly.

I got really curious. What ever “Perkinize” was, you sure as God didn’t want it to happen, you could tell!
So I asked what it was.
They all started talking at once. I had to quiet them down and pick one at a time to speak. They all said the same thing, “It’s the worst thing that you can imagine!”

I tentatively asked, “What’s the worst thing that could happen?”
One kid yelled, “She’d lock you in a closet!”
I thought, “No way is she locking kids in closets!”
Another said, “She’s hang you out the window!”
I thought, “What thee hell?!”

I just shook my head and got to work.

Talked to Mrs. Perkins after class. “What is “Perkanized?”
She just smiled and said, “It’s nothing specific. I just tell them it’s the worst thing that they could imagine, and leave the rest up to their imagination.”

Beautiful

So spankings are scary. Am I rightly remembering you thought spankings hurt until you were a pre-teen? Because if I am, I’d say you were probably scared of the (imagined) pain.

That story is only beautiful if you’re looking for obedience and control. I’m not looking for either. I like kids to understand why certain rules are in place. Until they can, I consider it my responsibility to make sure they don’t hurt themselves.

No, not really. I was just….. scared. I didn’t really have a reason why. I guess I just didn’t like my folks being mad at me. Maybe it was my imagination. Whatever, it was quite effective and I rarely got one. Plus Dad’s hard was never in it, poor guy. Gets home from work, barely has a chance to change and sit down, and he has to spank the kid!

Well, obedience and control is quite necessary in a room full of 30 3rd graders.

Obedience and control is quite necessary when you’re teaching a toddler how to avoid a life threatening situation. You can explain at the same time. Just so they understand they are NOT to do that again, whether they understand or not.

About a year ago I was watching my granddaughter. She wasn’t quite 2. She kept wanting to sit on Dakota, our German Shepherd. Back in the day that was fine. Dakota didn’t care. However, as she’s getting older she’s getting some hip problems, and they hurt. Sitting on her hurt.

I pulled my grandaughter off of the dog probably 7 times over two days, scolding her, “explaining” that it “hurt” Dakota, using emotions and pantomime to try and convey how serious it was. I even gave her time out.

Nothing was working. The danger to Zoey was that there was a very small chance Dakota could snap out of pain, although she’d rather chew off her own foot than hurt one of “her” kids. And, of course we didn’t want Dakota to hurt, so it was pretty serious.

I told her dad, my son. He said that the situation probably called for a spanking, and gave me permission.

That’s all it took. A quick, loud swat on her well padded, diapered butt, and time out. Did it startle her? Sure. What’s wrong with that? Obviously it didn’t terrify her too badly becausue she did test it again a few days later, to see if that would happen again, and it did.

She’s never done it since.

So, am I right in remembering you believed spankings hurt when you were a kid? I could be wrong, but I think the thread you mentioned that in is just a year old or so.

“Obedience and control is quite necessary in a room full of 30 3rd graders [or] when you’re teaching a toddler how to avoid a life threatening situation.”

I don’t agree. In the dog situation, I simply wouldn’t let a toddler and a fragile dog get close enough to hurt each other. This represents my general attitude, I believe. I simply don’t trust toddlers with their lives.

On two occasions, I slapped my daughter on the hand. She was around 2 or 3 on both of those occasions. I don’t believe she’s been psychologically harmed. She’s a very good child, in general.

@longgone should I have thrown old arthritic Dakota outside in the cold, rain, snow? Locked her in the bathroom? Locked her in the utility room? The bedroom? Other than keeping the child tied to a leash around my waist so she can’t get more than two feet from me every second that she was there, including lunch times, nap times, TV time, quiet play time, (times when Dakota would make a point of laying nearby in case she needed to be protected—she is that way will all small children,) what could I have done?
Should I have kept _Dakota- on a short leash, and dragged her around the house with me?

Seriously, give me some suggestions I can really work with. I will need them for the future.

You’ll be fine without my suggestions, and so will your grandkids. I’m just using your examples to explore our different approaches. If you like, we can become more theoretical in the future.

When I take care of small children while my dogs are around, the dogs are usually in the room next to whichever one the kid(s) and I am in. I have a gate I can put up in the respective doorway. When I’m ready to give kids and dogs my full attention, I get down on the floor and teach the kid how to pet the dogs. Way too few children know how to recognize the signals stressed dogs send. That’s why pretty much all dog bites to children happen “out of the blue”.

Well, I had them every day, not just once or twice. The kids and I roam all throughout the house. I treat them like my own. I never kept my kids confined to one room. They have access to every room in the house, except the bathroom and the utility room.

I understand the danger dogs can pose, but I just have to trust that my instincts in choosing whatever dog I chose were true.

The parents I know don’t let toddlers roam the house unchecked, even in their own home. In my experience, anyway, most young children want to stay in the same room as their caregivers. That’s a different topic, though.

Any dog is a danger, no matter how well chosen. If they’ve said they are stressed, and no-one is listening, they’ll snap. It’s just a matter of how many times they’re ignored. I like your optimistic view, but I just see too many cases of children put in danger in my line of work. Just last week, in puppy class, a family came in completely frazzled because their ten-week-old pup had grabbed and shaken the baby. In situations like these, the only thing I am thinking is, ”How did this dog have the opportunity to do so?” No matter how young or gentle a dog is (my old girl is a saint, too) – a huge chunk of dog bites could be prevented if parents were a little more aware of what their dogs can do, even without meaning to cause harm. This puppy was playing. Older dogs often want to discipline kids, and forget that humans are way more sensitive than a fellow dog would be.

All parents I know, including myself, experience a difficult period when the child is a toddler and the parent (either a parent home without another adult or a single parent) needs to go to the bathroom or take a shower. It’s a tough time and a risky time. You can’t tie the child up and you can minimize the time you’re in the shower or bathroom, but you still have to do what you have to do, and the child is toddling around unsupervised.

I used to put my daughter in a playpen off the kitchen when I was cooking dinner. She hated it but, oh well. Once I lost track of her around 14 months old or so and found her in the far back master bedroom bath where I kept the cat litter box, playing in the kitty litter. Gah!

LOL! You conjure up an image of some child, lost, alone and afraid, roaming around a giant castle all by themselves, @longgone! My house is only about 900 sq feet on the ground floor and the 3 rooms that the might wander in and out of (the kitchen, the living room, the dining room) are all connected to each other. I can pretty much see every room from any room I’m in. I may have to take a couple of steps one way or the other, but it’s no biggie.
Plus I have good hearing. I can tell you what a kid is up to just by listening. If the sound changes, I check.

I’m sure I’m wrong in not following in her footsteps as she goes here and there, examining and playing with things, or sitting in the same room with her, twiddling my thumbs or reading a book no…wait. If I’m reading a book then I’m not looking at the child, ergo, I am not supervising the child, so nix the book… then jumping up to go sit in the other room when she moves to the other room. Or…making her stay in the one room that is most convenient for me.

I am probably really super wrong in not sitting in the bedroom when she’s napping. In my experience, nap time is the time they’re most likely to get into some trouble.

@Dutchess_III “all throughout the house” conjured up an image of a rather large house for me, yes. Let’s just drop this. If you’re imagining me as some sort of super-caregiver, hovering over children who just want to be left alone to play, we are clearly misunderstanding each other.

Clearly. I wouldn’t let a kid wander around even my little house while I sat outside or something totally out of touch. But if I’m in the kitchen and can hear the kid or kids digging in the toy box in the next room, I know what they’re doing. If it goes silent, I go check.

But seriously…nap times are the times they get into trouble. In other circumstances in the day, if it gets quiet, you go check.
However, at nap time you want it to be quiet. You say, “Man, it’s so nice and quiet. How wonderful,” because you know right where they are. Tucked safely in bed…but they’re actually digging into a big, quiet tub of Vaseline, or drawing quietly on their bed and walls. Or on each other. Or water coloring the white cat. (all true stories, btw :)