Are ISIS really just Luke and Han?

This touches upon my comment on yesterday’s thread about any justification for mass killings? One person mentioned war against a dominant force; my response was that is what every terrorist tells himself.

One one hand, it’s big vs small.

OTOH, ISIS is killing a lot of people who are not fighting against them. Luke and Han did not do that.

I’m certain they all feel like heroes to themselves. I think a good number of “recruits” don’t fully know what they are getting into until it’s too late. I also can’t help but think our own media coverage of them causes more damage by giving susceptible individuals a cause excuse.
I think more about the crew of Serenity than Luke or Han.

@RocketGuy – How many civilian janitors, engineers, etc. were on the Death Star when it blew up?

@Seek – they signed up to be on a military base. The Rebels did not drag them from their homes.

Like this guy?

Yes, but we seem to lack the empathy and reason to look at what the US is doing around the world, especially Muslim countries. Although most Americans do not trust their government or media, they have no problem believing everything they say, without ever listening to what the “terrorists” say. I use quotations around the word, because it really is all a matter of perspective.
Here are some quotes from terrorists who were not killed, and I hope the full audio of the 911 call from Orlando is released, because I bet there was more said than him pledging allegiance to ISIS and the Boston bomber:
FRENCH SHOOTER “In a recording of what followed, a man the station identifies as Coulibaly holds a dialogue with others—apparently hostages—in which he says he attacked because the French military has attacked Muslims in the Middle East and Mali, including ISIS militants. “I was born in France. If they didn’t attack other countries, I wouldn’t be here,” a voice says in RTL’s recording.”

BOSTON BOMBER “He equated the three people who were killed in the marathon bombings and the more than 250 others who were injured to ‘collateral damage’ like the thousands of innocent Muslim victims of American wars across the globe. ‘When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims,’ he reportedly wrote.”

UNDERWEAR BOMBER “In quick response to some of the things that have been said, I say my life and the lives of Muslims have also changed due to the attacks on innocent civilians,” he added.”

SHOE BOMBER “I further admit my allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah. With regards to what you said about killing innocent people, I will say one thing. Your government has killed 2 million children in Iraq. If you want to think about something, against 2 million, I don’t see no comparison. Your government has sponsored the rape and torture of Muslims in the prisons of Egypt and Turkey and Syria and Jordan with their money and with their weapons. I don’t know, see what I done as being equal to rape and to torture, or to the deaths of the two million children in Iraq. So, for this reason, I think I ought not apologize for my actions. I am at war with your country. I’m at war with them not for personal reasons but because they have murdered more than, so many children and they have oppressed my religion and they have oppressed people for no reason except that they say we believe in Allah. This is the only reason that America sponsors Egypt. It’s the only reason they sponsor Turkey. It’s the only reason they back Israel. As far as the sentence is concerned, it’s in your hand. Only really it is not even in your hand. It’s in Allah’s hand. I put my trust in Allah totally and I know that he will give victory to his religion. And he will give victory to those who believe and he will destroy those who wish to oppress the people because they believe in Allah. So you can judge and I leave you to judge. And I don’t mind. This is all I have to say. And I bear witness to Muhammad this is Allah’s message.”

That is a truly compelling video with so many salient points that it should be required viewing. I’m damned sure going to pass it around.

One side’s terrorist is the other sides freedom fighter.

I’m just going to ignore Puke Piemuncher coz, well…y’know
Han had style, charm & a sprinkling of panache, isis are the polar opposite

Pictures I have seen of some look more like Chewy…

Perspective is everything. I am sure Han And Luke looked like terrorists to many.

valiant underdog vs. powerful evil empire? It’s the perfect characterization.

@RocketGuy “they signed up to be on a military base. The Rebels did not drag them from their homes.”

By that logic we should not have been terribly outraged when Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City. Afterall, the people chose to work at a government installation, no one dragged them there.

Let us not forget that the destruction of Alderaan is just a larger scale version of the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The video is tendentious and misleading. The majority of the people in Syria, millions of whom were already refugees from Iraq, do not support Islamic State. The majority of the people in Iraq do not support Islamic State. Islamic State, specifically Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, has as its goal the establishment of the Caliphate, and has as its goal the extermination of non-Muslims, and Shi’ites, whom the Sunnis of Islamic State do not consider to be Muslims. Islamic State is evil. To attempt to portray them as mainstream Muslims and patriotic freedom fighters is just disgusting. You’ll note that the woman in the video quotes a captured nenber if Ak Qaeda for her metaphor, not a member of ISIS. Al Qaeda might be closer to the metaphor, but they are still extremists and terrorists who don’t care how many innocent bystanders get killed in their operations. When Abu Bakr al Baghdadi took over control of Al Qaeda in Iraq, he was soon repudiated by the Al Qaeda leadership because of his intent to wage war on Shi’ites. That is when he created ISI, the Islamic State in Iraq. There is no doubt that the West is involved in the middle east because of petroleum, but ISIS is a cancer within the Muslim world.

By the way, news sources in India are reporting that al Baghdadi was killed in a coalition air strike on Sunday. Your Luke Skywalker may be toast right now.

@setanta
Just curious if you are aware of how many civilians have been killed in air strikes in the 7 countries that the US has been bombing?
So the west is involved in the Middle East for petroleum, yet ISIS is the cancer in the Muslim world? What does that make the west when they are occupying and killing for oil, when solar is becoming the main source of all new energy production?

@Setanta I fail to see how the video was in any way tendentious. The woman merely claimed that Isis fighters see themselves as the rebel alliance battling the powerful evil Empire. It is an apt and powerful metaphor, but more importantly that video is a revelation on a lethal shortcoming in us collectively, and that is our failure to put ourselves in the shoes of our opposition. It’s understatement to claim that our catastophic involvement in the Middle East is unquetionably the result of precisely what this woman is talking about- a failure to understand the dynamics of the region and more importantly the motives and history of the people inhabiting it. When it comes to that part of the world Americans need very much to be told that we’ve been incredibly shortsighted in neglecting to understand the perspective of the people with whom we deal.

Remember that Luke was one summer away from joining the Empire military.

The vast majority of people in the star wars universe supported their oppressors, not the rebels.

It is invariably the case that the soldiers on either side haven’t a clue as to the nature or makeup of the folks they’re supposed to kill. War becomes problematic once you TRULY begin to understand your enemy. That’s another very powerful message this woman imparts in the video. As I said before, it’s a very rare thing to find so many insights in a film so short!

And yet, her last line is the most important.

A faceless, nonhuman enemy can’t be defeated, but if the enemy is a policy, that is something that can be talked about.

Why are the rebels fighting the empire? What are they trying to gain? Why is the empire blowing up planets and incinerating moisture farmers? Could the empire potentially negotiate with the rebels to make certain concessions that would end the war peacefully? Could the rebels maybe understand that blowing up the Death Star twice doesn’t tell anyone what it is you want them to change, and leaving people guessing leads to a lot of bad guesses?

There is much that can be learned about our enemy by reading some of the writings from Bin Ladens Bookshelf, which contains writings confiscated from Bin Ladens compound.
I highly recommend starting with these:
Letter to Occupying Countries
The America Speech
To the American People
They are fairly quick to read and paint a much different picture than what we have been told by our government.

I’m always astonished at Western policy of not negotiating, or even talking to what wears the terrorist badge… The very label that Western culture tags them with.

This seems counterintuitive to our earliest childhood teachings of talking things out… use your words… express your feelings…

For the past three years, I’ve been researching cults and the processes involved with pathogenic alienation. The basic principle is that if you keep saying something long enough, and passionate enough, that people will eventually believe it. That’s how a cult leader can convince new converts that they were abused and molested as children, when in fact they were not. Brainwashing is an art form.

It’s far more insidious, and seductive than what I describe. But that’s the basic principle.

Why aren’t there more interviews with our so called enemies? Why can’t we come to the table and discuss the issues before all of us? I fear that the reasons are far to secretive, designed to protect corporate interests. I wouldn’t be surprised if the entire thing was a giant ruse orchestrated by a few, to delude the masses into perpetual conflict, slowly eroding freedoms on all sides.
______

I know this sounds silly… But I see hope in Japanese anime. I’m a huge Naruto Shippuden fan. One of the interesting aspects of that show is that every villain eventually gets their back story told, from their perspective. We come to realize, and empathize with their situation. I’ve seen this dynamic play out in a few television shows as well. Bloodline for instance, the “good guys” aren’t so good… And the “bad guys” aren’t so bad after understanding their position. I hope for more story telling like this can educate the public towards a desire for empathetic understanding of the other side… Whatever side that may be… not just in war, but in neighborhood conflicts too.

I mean… just try and get the back story of any convicted criminal. And ask yourself if you might have made the same choices given the circumstances you were facing.

I think we’re all good at heart. With the same basic desires for security and happiness. I’m suspicious of anyone who casts labels and refuses to hear the other side of the story. It reveals they may be hiding their own special interests behind a veil of protecting all of society.

I have faith that the internet will continue to allow the people to talk directly to one another, without the supervision of a government body to sway the issues towards their best interest.

Shakespeare said “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”.

I say “The first thing we do, is do away with corporate lobbyists”. And let’s see what happens from there.

The video is pretty striking and I think likely to get people to watch it to consider their own perspectives and reaction habits in ways they might not otherwise do. It came around my Facebook stream and I shared it.

People short-circuit logic and analysis when they’re having strong reactions. Exaggerated comparisons only land where you meant them, in the listening of people who can see your perspective, which usually only happens when they have a perspective close to yours already, especially when what you just said is liable to set off people’s reactions.

So the “Luke & Han” comparison is often not going to fly. The end note of the video is what works – we need to listen to our enemies, and that conversations, policies and ideas can change, but trying to “destroy the enemy” doesn’t work.

And don’t neglect the bit at the beginning about the few powerful people who stand to benefit financially and just happen to be the ones allowed to define “the enemy”.

I have been telling people that since the Vietnam War. I read a book one of the special ops guys wrote and he said there was a certain librarian who was always kind and supportive of them (the US), then an airstrike hit her village, and she dropped out of sight. Months later after a fierce VC battle she was one of the slain combatants. When he inquired he learned that she lost loved ones in the airstrike she felt was unwarranted in the first place, and that was the catalyst of her switching sides.

I can see it from the perspective of ISIS or other Islamic extremist. Lake Lebanon years back was considered a gem in Uncle Sam’s Middle East scrapbook, but Hamas or someone alleged attacked some Israeli soldiers and took one captive and was holding him in Lebanon, and when he was not handed over Israel with caveman on Lebanon, turning a thriving western-like nation to the likes of the Flintstones. I am sure some of those who lost people to Israeli air and missile strikes all the while using weapons Uncle Sam gave them and thus turned a blind eye, and abandoned them when they no longer served Uncle Sam’s purpose, I am sure they sided more with the extremist than the west.

But those who are too stupid or prideful to remember the past are condemn to keep repeating the same mistakes and never learning anything.

To address the implications of people’s remarks about American actions and policy: In condemning the actions and policies of Al Qaeda and Islamic State, I am not exculpating the actions and policies of the United States. It is a straw man to suggest that I am, and it is rather facile thinking to suggest that because I condemn al Baghdadi I must necessarily support and praise American actions and policies.

I have no doubt that the neo-conservatives of the PNAC in the baby Bush administartion—Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, and others—do not consider themselves to be evil, that they consider themselves to be “the good guys.” That,of course, does not mean that they are. I consider the invasion of Iraq in 2003 to have been an evil act from which horrible consequences have flowed. One of those consequences which was not inevitable was the rise of Islamic State.

Al Qaeda did not attack the United States because the US had killed muslim in the middle east. AQ did not give a rat’s patoot about the Iraqis who were killed in the Gulf War, nor for that matter about the Saudis and Kuwaitis who were killed in that war. To people like bin Laden, the stationing of American forces in Suadi Arabia—the Holy Land of Islam—was a necessary evil which they would tolerate for the purpose of defeating Iraq. Especially, they hated Iraq, the Ba’ath Arab Socialist Party and Saddam Hussein al Tikriti because the Iraqi state was a secular state—in the eyes of AQ, they were evil people who deserved no mercy. But when the war was finished, American troops, especially air forces, remained in Saudi Arabia, and that was intolerable to them. So they set off a truck bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center in 1993, they bombed American embassies in East Africa in 1998, they attacked the USS Cole in 2000, and finally, they attacked the towers of the World Trade Center in 2001. They didn’t do that because the Untied States was killing Muslims in the middle east, because Americans weren’t killing people in the middle east in the period 1992–2001. They did it because the US continued to station infidel troops in the Muslim Holy Land.

The fact that there are American villains does not make Muslim monsters any less monstrous. Al Qaeda is not fighting to liberate anyone or anything. They are not patriotic freedom fighters and they don’t care how many people are killed as “collateral damage” in their operations, including other Muslims. Islamic State is even worse. They don’t fight to liberate anyone and anything, and their policy is insanely evil. They are a Sunni Muslim organization which has as its goal to re-establish the Caliphate (and al Baghdiad calls or called himself the Caliph), which will and has killed tens of thousands of people of the middle east—because they were Christian, or Shi’ite, or Ismaili or Druz, and therefore not “religiously correct.” They kill people who are Sunnis, for that matter, if they happen to be in the way.

In justifiably condemning American actions and policies, make sure that the cure is not more fatal than the disease.

@Seek IIRC the Rebels are fighting the Empire because they do not want to be under the thumb of its absolute monarchy. The movies establish that Palpatine was in it for total control of galactic civilization, abolishing representative intermediaries like the Senate. Negotiation works when there is room for it; there is no middle ground when all that the other guy wants is total control, and all that you want is to be left alone.

@Nullo

The movies also cling to a simplistic absolute black & white, good guys verses bad guys morality that just isn’t realistic. Now you might say that Star Wars is merely a fantasy tale and, thus, shouldn’t be expected to reflect the real world in such manners. And that would be fine were it not for Lucas’ attempts at stitching real world political analogies into it.

There’s not doubt that ISIS has a tremendous allure among muslims, especially the youth. It’s the Spanish war of our times, without its Hemingway (yet). Which is exactly why we should blow them to dust: this allure feeds recruitment and lone wolves’ attacks. Only once it’s destroyed will home-grown Islamist terrorism decrease.

There was this game a few years back, Deus Ex, in which you could switch sides in the middle of the game, to join the terrorists you were fighting so far. I remember feeling so great during the switch: I felt free, at last.

The problem with ISIS is that they can’t live up to their legend—they ARE a bunch of religious wackos after all, ultraviolence can only get you so far. I never saw Luke and Solo and Leila burn their prisoners alive, or throw them alive in a tank of acid… Only bad guys do that.

I wouldn’t be quite so quick to say “only bad guys do that”. Even here, in the land of the “good guys” the state still carries out brutal executions in the name of the people.

Living up to their legend is only a problem if they stood even a wisp of a chance at long term success. In the age of the internet, religious wackos are guaranteed a following from the world’s frustrated, maladjusted, or mentally disturbed. “Happy men don’t volunteer.”

@Darth
There’s no equivalence. The good people of the USA are not emigrating en masse to try and go live in Syria, or are they?
Islamism—the theory that Islam has a political role to play in the modern world—is a serious ideoligical threat in its own right. It should not be underestimated.

@Stan
Define “long term”. AQ has been around for 20 years, the Muslim Brotherhood for a 100 years.

I thought we were talking ISIS.

No, because Luke and Leia did not go around into crowds of citizens and shoot into crowds where there were no enemy military combatants. They understood citizens themselves were not the empire and do not make policy.
Luke and Leia also did not go around beheading citizens of their community who did not agree with them or refuse to join or aid them. That was more of the Empire style. You forget that the Empire wasn’t always the Empire. It also started as small rebel forces. So no. I do not agree. If anything they are more likely to be in the role of the Empire. If you are not with us then you are against us and either entered into slavery or dead.

@stanleybmanly
Yes, we are talking of ISIS. You said “they [don’t stand] even a wisp of a chance at long term success”. I wish you are right but why do you say so? Because they are on the defensive?

Isis’ allure matters because it feeds their recruitment and motivates “lone wolf attacks”. The sooner they are out, the better for everybody else. Those guys may be God’s best friend in their own mind, but in mine they are the enemies of mankind.

@olivier5

Syria and whether or not people from the US are moving there is irrelevant to the point. You used burtal methods of execution to clearly distinguish use, the “good guys”, from them, the “bad guys”. But we, the “good guys”, also execute our people in brutal ways.

And there are a huge number of people in this country who feel that Christianity should play a politic role in the world. Although, fortunately, as of yet most are still too comfortable to really do much more than spread their bile on Facebook or to vote for politicians who play on their fears and hatred.

@olivier5 Isis is not a long term prospect as an occupying force simply due to the impossibility of them setting up a viable functioning state

@Stan
They are a state, de facto, with a government, revenues, even a health care system, and they came close to overpowering the Iraqi state… It’s wishfull thinking to assume they will collapse on their own.

@Darth
I never said the US were the good guys. The good guys are us, the French… ;-)
Joke aside, the death penalty is indeed immoral however you dish it out, but still ISIS beats the US any day when it comes to ultraviolent butchering. The use of ultraviolence for political suppression is part of ISIS routine governance practice. They are on a par with the nazis here. And only bad guys do that in my book.

They have sex slaves too. Are you going to draw a false equivalence with the US here too?

@olivier5

You simply aren’t getting it are you? The only thing that separates the “good guys” from the “bad guys”, ultimately, is one’s perspective. Especially when it comes to imperialistic powers (which the United States, France and ISIS all are).

@Darth
“The only thing that separates the “good guys” from the “bad guys”, ultimately, is one’s perspective. ”
Indeed, and my perspective is that ISIS are the ultimate “bad guys”. Is your perspective different?

@olivier5

My perspective is that you’re painting an entirely too simplistic picture of things.

The “ultimate” bad guys?

Really?

In the deepest recesses of your brain you can’t think of any possible way anyone could be slightly more evil than a band of religious whackadoodles?

Not even a little?

@Seek
Help me out, Seek. Who in today’s world could possibly be worse than ISIS?

@Darth
Like Seek, you’re very short of details. Don’t be shy… Tell us what you think of ISIS, you complex thinker.

I’ve always said that the “soldiers” on both sides think they are doing right. The leaders too I guess, although I think sometimes the leaders know better.

I’ve compared Al Qaeda to the Klingons. Honor in dying in battle. America lately has ramped up this idea too. Of course, we mourn those who lose their life fighting for us, and are grateful to people who fight for us, who keep us safe and sovereign, but we are at an increased ferver with this idea to the point that we are almost blind.

I think we have to look at religion and I’ll go as far to say coercion and brainwashing to explain this attitude. The religious Muslims seem very focused on the glory of death. Christians also focus a lot on being with God in heaven, but they have more balance with also have significant focus on preserving life. Looking forward to death that comes a long with honor is a great recipe for recruiting a lot of people who will die for a cause.

It’s very easy to understand why people might perceive the US and other western nations as brutal heartless killers. The US is the only country that has dropped a nuclear bomb. The US and other allied forces have killed many many people in the Middle East with these recent wars.

I ask myself, who started it? Who is going to be the one to stop? If the Israelis stop bombing the Palestinians will the Palestinians stop? Doubtful. The Palestinians seem reluctant to sign any sort of peace treaty. If America never had gone into Afghanastan would women be living free and safe there? No. If America hadn’t joined the fight against Hitler what would have happened? A European continent ruled by someone who murders the disabled? The Jews would have been basically wiped out in Europe if he had stayed in power, so they eventually would barely be a target, but disabled people are born every day and would continue to be born and murdered.

We have to decide as human beings right and wrong and help fight when we need to help protect the innocent. Wars against humanity is one thing. Wars for land is another. Sometimes they are wrapped together and it’s very complicated.

@olivier5

My view of ISIS is that the the leadership are filling a power vacuum. Nothing more or less than countless other figures and groups throughout human history. Power vacuums are almost always extremely brutal and violent as extreme brutality is how one established one’s dominance over all other competitors. The rank and file, of course, see themselves as those fighting on the side of all that is good and just in this world (just as the rank-and-file in any army do). Indeed, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

Calling them the “ultimate bad guys” is to fall back on a juvenile, almost comic book-like mentality where the good guys are unquestionably noble and the bad guys are unquestionably evil. The real world ain’t quite like that.

I see Islamism as a very dangerous ideology, as the modern and Muslim form of fascism. It’s a cancer eating the Muslim world from the inside. It has been growing since at least the 70’s and Imam Khomeini’s iranian islamic revolution. ISIS is just the latest and most tragic manifestation of this cancer, in my opinion.