Why do you think women make less money than men?

They get pregnant, have babies, and drop out of the workforce.

Not all women have babies and drop out of the work force. I didn’t.

Since I’m job hunting right now I have some thoughts on this.

I know full well from going to a technical school that there are way fewer women than men in STEM which is a high paying area in general. I don’t know why there’s fewer women – I suspect it has something to do with the way we’re raising and socializing our young girls – but that could be a contributing factor.

When I got my first job out of college, and they stated a salary, I thought to myself “Wow that’s more than I’m worth” and did not negotiate at all. I don’t know if that thought process has anything to do with me being a woman, but I will offer that up as something I did. Men probably have it drilled into them to be a little more to be cocksure and certain of their worth as an employee, I dunno.

Let me share my situation right now. I am speaking with four companies all of whom have told me that they’re going to be extending offers, but with one exception I haven’t received anything in writing quite yet and don’t know how much money they’re offering. I do, however, have a favorite company out of the bunch and I’m totally willing to turn down a larger offer to go to my favorite company if that’s the way the offers work out. In fact, my least favorite company of the bunch is the one that I’m expecting will probably offer me the most money, and I’m pretty determined not to go there no matter what they offer me. I am of the attitude that more money isn’t going to improve my life enough to offset the increased stress that going to a job I don’t like would cause.

Do you think it’s possible that women are making more decisions that are not based on money or on what might be considered a good “career move”? Women have probably been raised to give more credence to their emotions, or at least to deny them less, and maybe they’re therefore more likely to consider how happy they think the job will make them, or how anxious they think the job will make them, etc and might possibly end up weighing money less heavily as they make their decisions. I know that’s the case for me.

@trolltoll Good point, that could be a big factor, yeah. It doesn’t have to be all women for it to drop the average wage.

@chyna I never said they did. But on average, women get pregnant, give birth, and take parental leave, more than men do.

From what I’ve read, and I apologize for not providing a source for this information, women tend to care less about making a lot of money than men do. So yes, that probably explains part of the difference. They are also less likely to negotiate their salary or ask for a wage, probably due as you said to the way they are socialized, which can be an indication of sexism.

And then you have women who get pregnant, which will always require them to take time off work, even if they take no parental leave. Some women have multiple pregnancies. Some women take months-long maternity leave, while some take years off of work to stay at home and raise their kids until they are of schooling age. Some women do not return to work at all after dropping out to raise their kids.

The reason is likely to be a combination of these reasons. I don’t think we can rule out sexism, but it is not the only reason, or even, maybe, the primary reason.

Tradition! It’s the same as all the othe inequities that are collapsing. This one though is tough to root out, particularly in professional positions where salaries are negotiated. Employers have a dodge in the “just because her salary is lower than the average man with comparable stats, it doesn’t mean she earns less because she’s female.” In other words, though there’s powerful statistical evidence that women are paid less, the burden of proof with the individual woman for a perceived shortfall in salary falls on squarely on her own shoulders. I myself would talk to someone skilled in these matters. Maybe you need a feminist agent skilled in these matters with the reputation of a barracuda. Does such a thing exist? One thing you certainly got right. We are all products and victims of conditioning, and men are going to make assumptions about a petite young woman. Keep that broad from Venezuela in your mind during your interview and a glance at your face will dispel any pushover illusions.

The 78% number simply takes the average of male salaries in comparison to the average of female salaries. It does not take into consideration career choice, family choice and other factors. There is still a disparity and it’s been postulated that some of it is negotiating skills and that some of it is legit bias against females. I know in stem HR departments view female engineers, scientists and programers as that elusive white unicorn that they have to compete to hire. I’m not sure why there are so few females in stem but at my university it was like 30 to 1. My guess is that it’s simply preference. There certainly have not been any bariers for females in my generation here.

I think there is still a strong undercurrent of belief that women and girls are not as well suited to the sciences as men and boys are. It is not as pervasive or explicit as it has been in the past, but whispers of it are still there, and continue to influence the way parents treat their children, teachers treat their students, and employers treat their employees. It coaxes women toward the “feminine” professions, mainly those that are socially oriented, and away from the “masculine” ones, which include the sciences, a traditionally male domain.

I think a lot of women grow up thinking they are not smart enough to be in math and science, because they never met or saw a woman in those fields. Or when they took those classes and were confused, their parents didn’t push them as hard as they pushed their brothers. Personally, I know I have had self-doubt because of my gender, and I know that I can’t be the only one. Yet, no one has ever told me that I shouldn’t go into STEM because I am a girl.

@trolltoll I can speak for my experience. My father certainly pushed my sisters quite hard to go into engineering. They both were quite gifted in school. He pushed me too but all three of us resisted and just did what we wanted to do. I ended up an engineer anyway because I fell in love with electronics. One sister became a concert musician and teacher, the other became a stay at home mother of three. We had the same opportunity when all factors are accounted for appropriately. I suspect this scenario plays out across the nation. I really think career preference is the largest contributor to the “wage gap”

@ARE_you_kidding_me I wonder how close yours and your sisters’ experience is to the average in the United States (assuming that’s where you’re from), if there is even such an average experience to speak of.

We were an average middle class family in the american south. About as ho hum as it gets.

It takes a long time for power traditions to change. And even when they do change, it takes even longer for things to even out. Just ask any community that’s had to fight for equality.

Those who hold the most leverage don’t want to let go of it. They see no advantage in doing so. They view it as potentially threatening. As losing control, is one step closer to being controlled.

It’s just the way our species operates, in practically every facet of society.

Cannot say I truly seen any example of it around here, but that is by people I personally know.

I think it’s a combination of things.

Women traditionally held jobs that paid less and many of those jobs still have low pay even when men work in them. These jobs either had good hours to take care of children, or took less education than something else within the field. Examples of within a field are nurses compared to doctors, or K-12 compared to professors. From what I understand that 78% number is not apples to apples. It’s not comparing female engineers to male engineers. It just an average of women’s earnings and men’s.

I also heard that men will apply for and accept jobs that they only have say 75% of the skills required (I don’t remember the exact number) while women feel they need a 100% fit before they will even try. So, men actively pursue higher paying higher level jobs.

I think men also are more glass half full oriented and bigger risk takers, so that helps them go where the money is, while women might stay loyal to a company over time even if their pay isn’t great. Men typically feel they are in the role of the breadwinner, so they pursue the money while women look more for a work and personal life balance.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: I do not accept that women don’t go into STEM because they don’t want to. Well, let me rephrase. By the time they’re 18 and choosing a path, they don’t want to, but that’s not because of some inherent difference in the female brain making them not like technical work.

There are a lot more influences than just the family life. My dad raised me to love math and science. But in high school I joined the technology club and was the only girl there and was basically shunned by the male students. Memorably, during a junkyard wars competition I asked how can I help and the male lead of the team told me I could help by going downstairs and making him a sandwich.

Then in college people weren’t such dicks but my classes in computer science were all composed of 50 dudes who all seemed to have been programming since they were 10 years old, and me, who nobody thought to expose to programming until college. And that was discouraging enough that I nearly changed majors a few times, but luckily I made it through.

There are just a lot of factors here.

@Mariah keep in mind that you went into stem because you wanted to and likely enjoy it so you likely have a different petspective. I just have a hard time believing that a 30+ to 1 ratio has little to do with preference. The different schools I went to did nothing but encourage females to enter the sciences. Why the huge disparity?

Keep in mind that you’re a man and didn’t see all the people telling us to go make them sandwiches along the way.

Hell, even the teacher who led our technology club was discouraging of me in a much more subtle way. We were preparing for a showcase where there’d be all sorts of tech-related competitions and he was encouraging me to enter the digital photography competition (the artsiest event there – I’d never even expressed an interest in digital photography to him before???) while in the same breath telling all the guys to go into the other room and start building a catapult.

I totally agree that by the time they’re 18 most women don’t want to do STEM. I don’t agree that that’s because of some innate fuckup in our brains though. There are lots of subtle things pushing us away from that arena all along the way as we grow up.

Who the hell says it has to be some innate fuck up? Can’t it be that men and women are just programmed a little differently on average? Who says one way is any better than another? Why the hostility?

As I said before -tradition. You would probably prefer the word “inertia”. But if you step back and look at it, the steering of women away from technical fields is deeply ingrained in the ordering of our society and the pressure is relentless. The sandwich thing is the result of the fact that in that man’s family “that’s what women do”. The fascinating aspect to that story is that it so fits the stereotype of the “head in the clouds” scientist completely oblivious to the insult in his suggestion. But back to the influences deflecting women from the sciences and mathematics. I think they are the last to topple precisely because they are furthest from “girly” endeavors. To get what I’m talking about, take a peek in your closet and count the pairs of high heeled shoes. Do you spend 3 or 4 grand a year on makeup? Are you socking away every dime you can get your hands on for that fairy tale wedding? How much of your leisure time is devoted to pondering china patterns or coordinating your sheets and linen?

But it’s coming to an end. Just look at what’s going on in medicine.

I do take it as an affront when people say women aren’t “programmed” to be able to handle technical work because it does sound like a question on our intelligence as a sex, but I didn’t intend my post to be hostile towards you.

I’m very surprised that you think I believe your reaction hostile. Or was that last post 4 me?

No, not aimed at you, sorry for the confusion, @stanleybmanly.

My point is that women are deflected from serious endeavors toward more frivolous pursuits, and it begins at a VERY young age and is ubiquitous. Just consider the practical implications of a dress.

I think there might be a slight difference in the brains of females and males when it comes to the sciences. I’ve said I’d bet half of our best scientists have asperger’s or some traits of asperger’s. One trait I mean specifically is their ability to focus and obsess on one task. Men in general are better at focus and not giving a shit…or I’ll say they can be selfish enough…or, lets’ say less interested, in human contact and conversation. The STEM studies and career lines might fit them better personality wise. Notice I say personality. I’m not saying women don’t have the ability to do the math and science.

Meanwhile, I had teachers who encouraged me in math and science. The one who stands out most in my mind was a man. I had more than one female teacher in math and science in high school.

I have a female friend who is an industrial engineers, another is a cancer researcher, another who was a math major, another a computer programmer, and we all know female doctors.

I will say though that I still see engineering as a heavily male industry. Just last week I was telling someone a girlfriend of mine just got her masters I industrial engineering and he immediately wanted to know if she lived close by because he always is interested in female engineers for his company. Currently, he doesn’t have any females in that position.

I think @Mariah‘s point is very valid. How people are treated in k-12 by teachers and peers is extremely important. Kids want to fit in, not be ostracized or demeaned. It’s also similar to why certain industries are dominated by certain groups. From working the fields to launching satellites. It’s hard to be the odd man out. Especially, when the people around you are emphasizing you’re an outsider.

There are women on executive positions of multinational companies. I don’t think they’re earning any less than their male counterparts.

It is entrenched customs and traditions.

I’m just finishing a book on Wilhelmine Germany. Of all the Western first-world cultures of that time and long before, this era had women of all classes boxed into very small, defined roles within society. Even the Krupp heiress, Bertha, the undisputed wealthiest woman in Europe at the time and, if not for the tradition of primogeneture, she would have rightly have taken her place as the armorer of Germany and the world, but Kaiser Wilhelm II could not conceive of such responsibility laid into the hands of a female, no matter how competent. Therefore, she, by his insistence, was forced to “sacrifice her maidenhead” for the 2nd Reich in a forced marriage to a favored, blindly obedient, titled diplomat 16 years her senior. Then she was relegated to the role spelled out for all good, patriotic Fraus; raising kinder to be loyal first to the Fatherland, upholding the status quo and supervising her corps of household staff.

We must wonder how world history would be different if she had been allowed to take her rightful place as head of Krupp industries.

Next door in 2nd Republic France, Marie Curie had to publish her work under her husband’s monograph in order to inform the world of her discoveries—and only hope that someday, if the Academie were ever staffed with progressives, her husband would agree to give her proper credit.

But Edwardian England, always a strange bird, had allowed women to rise to the throne since Elizabeth I and now was in the often violent throes of deciding women’s sugfrage.

In the States widows had been allowed to assume the direction of corporations without a lawyer dictating to them for at least a generation.

All this began to rapidly improve upon the advent of WWI, only a century ago. Men from that era would not recognize or see any relationship between the roles allowed fin-de-secle women and today. It represents incredibly fast change considering the millenia women were locked down.

It’s happening faster than people realize in this age of immediacy and full enfranchizement should be attained within the lifetimes of the Gen-xers, if the momentum continues—provided we are not interrupted by the stresses of World War or world economic collapse.

Customs and Traditions are hard to break artificially and is what we have been doing.

@Mariah Because we sit still for it.

I heard an interesting discussion on this subject on this episode of Freakonomics Radio Podcast.

The short version goes like this: Bill and Susan both graduate from a great law school with equal grades and enter the workforce. Susan may actually make a little more than Bill in the first years out of school, but over time Susan will make career choices that value flexibility of schedule while Bill will make choices that maximize his income. Susan may take the position that’s a steady 9–5 M-F corporate law position. Bill however is more likely to take the position that requires international travel and being available 24–7. Bill’s position is better compensated because it does require more commitment, Susan does almost as well as Bill but has a much more flexible lifestyle.

According to that episode at least, the bulk of the gender pay gap is due to women valuing their time/flexibility differently than men. I thought it was an interesting listen, but I’ve not really done a deep look into the research discussed.

I asked our maid the same question & when I informed her of the butler’s pay rate she shrugged her shoulders & said “ahh well, but I look better in my uniform”
Simple little creature, but speaks the truth, it’s the small things…(chewbacca mask) :)

There was a very interesting piece about this on NPR recently. It’s called, How Stereotypes Can Drive Women To Quit Science.. The reason is not what anyone of us would think.

My girlfriend is a doctor. I do contract work for the government. She makes a lot more than me.
But I bet if she had my job, she would be paid about the same, and I bet if I had her job I would make about the same.

@Espiritus_Corvus: Well behaved women rarely make history. (that’s a saying that’s all over, not my quote).

@gorillapaws: Plus, the woman in the equation may have taken time off to have a baby and stay home with the baby (months, years, sometimes decades). Maybe her desire for flexibility and time off is due to that, which further diminishes her income, and often diminishes her value to her employer. Plus it seems that taking time when the child is sick or has school plays, parties, events falls to the mom (often, not always).

@jca I agree. Additionally, women are often responsible for caring for elderly family members in some households that forces compromises in career decisions. I haven’t studied the data though, but the hypothesis makes logical sense to me at least.

When we hire, it would never be the case that we’d take what we’d offer a man and multiply by .78 to get the equivalent wage for a woman. That’s bananas.