Do you think there is any possibility that WIC program is deliberately designed to humiliate those utilizing the vouchers at the checkstand?

I was in line once behind a woman using the things and I noticed everything she bought was organic, and for myself, I can’t afford organic like that. I thought, wow, how nice to have that benefit.

Probably at some level. US culture is filled with awful shaming bullshit ideas, so the shame/stigma is definitely there. One can hardly wave a stick without finding someone prepared to go righteous against the poor, so…

I doubt that humiliation was a design goal for the program, but for some portion of the right wing, it is an added benefit.

I was more interested in the unwieldy process involved with validating and matching groceries to the vouchers. I was behind a woman who was red faced and nearly in tears from the rude reactions of 3 of the folks in the long line behind us. A few folks (who apparently knew what we were in for) left the line immediately upon spying the vouchers. They ran off to one of the other 2 long lines. I tend to be impatient and not very sensitive, and might well have hissed and acted the fool had it not been for the embarassment clearly evident on WIC woman’s beet red face as the minutes dragged interminably by. Even the checker, who had at first made a face upon production of the pile of tickets?, noticed the distress in her customer, and softened to say “don’t mind them. Some people have no manners at all”

The sheer time involved with the rigamarole at the ckeckstands guarantees that EVERYONE behind you winds up pissed & knows you’re on the dole.

@jca – Trust me, she wishes she didn’t have to get a voucher for a jar of peanut butter and a pound of carrots.

@stanleybmanly – It’s especially fun when they change the rules and participating brands every six months without warning.

Here we have stores that only carry W.I.C stuff.

When my sister was on it the voucher had checkboxes for everything. A lot of things were perishable so you couldn’t just grab a months worth of milk and cheese. So some way to track this stuff is needed. The voucher is easiest for the W.I.C user and the clerk. I can’t think of a good way to know what you can get that is electronic and easy to remember. (Don’t assume everyone has cellphones and can just download a app)

Humiliate? No.

Though I am curious what people buy with my money.

When I see some hack driving a Chevrolet Volt I sometimes mouth “you’re welcome.”

Actually, she had food stamps not WIC, but no, @Seek, she was not getting vegetables she was getting all kinds of organic teas. That’s what got us talking, we were comparing teas.

Organic tea is not a WIC voucher item. Tea of any kind isn’t a WIC item.

Yes, @Seek, I said she had food stamps not WIC.

Back when Ian was an infant, I got WIC vouchers.

Because I breastfed, I was allowed the luxury of four cans of tuna packed in water (not oil) every two weeks. The cans had to be 4.4 ounces or less. Only one brand had 4 ounce cans; everything else was 5 ounces.

The shelf had a big empty space where the single cans of that brand of tuna in water should have been, so I grabbed a four-pack of the same size cans of the same brand, which actually would have cost less for the WIC program than the four individual cans. I get my peanut butter and my carrots and my plain Corn Chex in the 12.8 ounce box (and not the 15 ounce box), and went up to the counter.

Lo and behold, the 4-pack of 4.4 ounce cans was not an approved WIC item. Cue the cashier telling me it’s the wrong thing, me explaining why I brought that instead of the other, the cashier calling a manager, them looking “in the back” for a single can they can ring up four times as an override for the system, and a line of grocery store patrons lazer-filleting me with their eyes for daring to shop with a voucher.

There was no single can, nothing they could do, so I had to get everything but the tuna. Tuna was a total loss, since once you turn in a voucher anything you didn’t get is forfeit.

It was a glorious experience. Truly.

I gave up picking up the WIC vouchers soon after that. I could have kept getting them until he turned three, but it was just too much of a hassle, and the judgemental attitudes of the other customers honestly made me choose not to eat sometimes rather than deal with them.

@jca – to be fair, you said “the things”, and the question is about WIC vouchers and didn’t mention food stamps at all.

@Seek: Yes, you are correct. I realized after I wrote it that the lady had food stamps not WIC.

I was in the store once in the state I live in and the family in front of me had cheese sliced at the deli counter. The cashier told them this type of cheese is not allowed with WIC, but they appeared to not speak English. The cashier got the manager, who explained to them that WIC is supposed to be for pre-sliced cheese, like Kraft singles or whatever. I guess since it would be more hassle to return the cheese and nobody would want cheese that was sliced for another customer, so the manager did an override and let them have it.

@jca – in that instance they likely didn’t ring up the cheese at all. Anything that leaves the deli and isn’t purchased has to be thrown away anyway. The store ate the loss.

@Seek: Yes I realize that. It was nice of them to give it to the family. If they wanted to bust chops, they could have.

No. I’ve used WIC and it’s a bitch, but it’s designed to help not humiliate. The people who are judgy and impatient are the ones with the problem.

No; but even if inflicting humiliation was the goal, one would have to cooperate with the intent by choosing to feel humiliated for the goal to work. Why would anyone choose to feel humiliated by using a program that saves them a few dollars?

I would imagine that it would be the choice between embarrassment and hunger.

I wonder how many people on here have used WIC.

How many have visited an office, sat in a waiting room for hours, talked with a person behind a plexiglass screen about their income and why they don’t have any, then taken back into a room to have their blood drawn and tested for iron content and urine tested for drugs, had you and your baby weighed, and then spoken with a bored counselor that pretended to give a damn for five minutes, in order to get a voucher for a handful of food items that you’ll be mercilessly judged for using… And repeating the whole process every six weeks.

Never received WIC or any type of public assistance (other than unemployment which isn’t public assistance). I do work and have worked in the offices where public assistance is given out and have worked closely with parents who have received it, and I know that the workers can be total bitches. Workers who were my friends would be totally rude to the public. Not all of them, of course. Lots were totally cool but there were a few that were total bitches. It started with the receptionist, who, as a receptionist is supposed to be receptive. She would talk to people but not even look at them. She would talk to them in a curt tone like they were pissing her off, and these were people that were just asking where to give their application or something simple like that.

On the receiving end, I had a friend who got WIC and she got so much baby formula she used to give me some.

Never participated in the application process, but I’ve done my share of using them when my twins were babies.

Thank GOD for WIC.

We went through so many packs of diapers and cans of formula my wife and I would be hard pressed to purchase without that assistance.

I don’t think twice about a woman using WIC vouchers. I think it’s a great program that helps provide the necessities for an at-risk part of our society. I might get annoyed at the time spent redeeming them, but that’s usually the store clerk’s fault, in my experience.

Back in the day of food stamps – before the SNAP cards – I would frequently get miffed at someone buying T-bone steaks and decorated cakes with my money. Now I’m usually unaware of people using SNAP cards, and it’s probably for the best.

I remember being in a local grocery when generic pop was 15¢ a can. A young boy had $1 food stamps, and he was wanting to buy 5–6 cans of pop, one to a voucher. I was thrilled when the store clerk (a big burly guy) made the kid buy them one at a time, each can a separate trip through the lane. The clerk couldn’t stop the kid from doing it, but he didn’t have to make it easy.

“With my money”. Ugh.

I get mad at people building trillion dollar jets with my money, too. How many birthday cakes is that?

It’s the line between incentive and indulgence, @Seek.

If you’re provided hamburger when you crave T-bone, that’s incentive.
If you’re eligible for cake mix, eggs, oil, and frosting but given a pre-made, decorated cake from the bakery, that’s indulgent.
Your effort and $5 worth of ingredients or no effort and a $20 cake.
IMO, of course.

I’m not going to have the discussion on why it’s exactly no one’s business what someone on benefits does with those benefits. Or why they might choose one thing over the other. Or whether maybe, just maybe, letting your five year old feel like a normal kid at their birthday party is worth eating dried beans the whole next week.

@Seek. Don’t forget about the required nutrition classes and being talked down to as if you have no education. Sure, many of the recipients aren’t that smart, but not all of us were in a bind due to lack of education.

I just don’t understand why it is that in order to receive benefits which are so vitally necessary, and clearly of great and essential benefit to recipients, those recipients are once again subjected to degrading requirements reinforcing the unspoken proposition that being poor amounts to a state of criminal existence.

If we are going to go this route can we discuss what a massive source of corporate welfare this is?

If the government is handing out cheese and diapers the government should be making the cheese and diapers so the CEO of Procter & Gamble doesn’t get a cut. NASA has the diaper tech already.

NEVER. That’s the great fear and primary necessity for the constant and unyielding demonization of socialism. No enterprise or scheme must EVER be allowed which avoids the requirement that the rich get richer and that ALL the money flow uphill.

Massachusetts has introduced an electronic benefits card for the WIC Program which should speed things up. As for the required nutrition classes WIC customers can only eat what the government gives them. It’s everyone else in America that should be on required nutrition classes.

My state uses EBT and the only way you would know it is if you watch people swipe their cards. They are in and out with zero fuss so this question does not apply at all here. When you look there are a shocking number of people using them. Seems like just about anything can be bought with it except for fast food, tobacco and alcohol. There is a whole pizza chain that sprouted up seemingly because of this. They offer “take and bake” pizza which qualifies. The prices are outrageous for what it is yet people on benefits still buy them.

In any case, again, I’m a whole-hearted supporter of the WIC program, and I’m only sorry for the woman ahead of me using WIC because she’s having difficulty using the vouchers. Honestly, I’ve been behind a woman before that had everything dialed in and sorted, only to have the clerk make a huge mess of it and have to call for help.

@ARE_you_kidding_me :: W.I.C and food stamps (EBT) are different beasts. EBT is the generic food stamps and also does welfare payments. It is just like a debit card and most stores will take it. It enen asks if you want to use your food benefit or your cash benefit when you swipe your card.

W.I.C (Women, Infants, and Children) is a bit different. At least in Oregon it is a voucher with checkboxes for very specific items. Like four boxes for a gallon of milk so on. So when you get milk the cashier checks off one of the boxes. This pretty much always turns in to some sort of diaster with the person grabbing the wrong kind of milk of the cashier having no clue what W.I.C is.

Like I said above we have stores here that are only for W.I.C. They are privately run stores and probably mark-up the shit out of everything since the government is paying and very unlikely to have the resources to police them if the charge a extra two bucks for diapers.

@johnpowell I have not encountered anyone having issues with it then. Could be that all of the folks using wic are going to specific locations though.

There’s a bodega across the street from the building I work in. At the counter, I’ll see people buying soda, M&M’s, bags of chips and all kinds of crap with their EBT cards. I usually don’t buy those items from bodegas or deli stores because the prices are so inflated. Once I saw a guy spend $12 (on his EBT card) with crap. What that’s going to end up doing is making the government put restrictions on what people can buy. If you get, say, $60 per week in food stamps and you can afford to spend $12 in one shot on M&M’s and soda at a bodega, something’s wrong, either wrong with the person’s perception of what this is or wrong with the eligibility requirements.

I once got in a HUGE fight with someone here on Fluther, @jca because they thought they should be able to buy gift cards with EBT funds. I believe it’s fairly common for there to be something “wrong with the person’s perception of what this is”. Not the norm, certainly, but fairly common. I know people that speak routinely about exchanging goods purchased with EBT funds for services or ineligible items. “Mow my yard and I’ll buy you $20 worth of groceries.”
There are people that take EBT for granted – as a way of life – and there are people like @Seek and @jonsblond who have used it as a lifeline in a time of trouble.
It’s odd to me that the government feels fine about taxing sugary drinks, but not about discouraging the use of EBT funds to get the same drinks.
And how is Diet Dr. Pepper a “sugary drink”??

Why draw the line at soda?

Let’s discourage chips and candy, too. And then we can discourage French fries and pizza. And then we can discourage battered frozen chicken and TV dinners. And then we can discourage hot dogs and hamburger meat. Because someone will always find the next “unhealthy” or “indulgent” thing to ban once you start banning individual items.

But when we’re left with lean meats, legumes, and fresh produce, who’s to stop the people complaining that people on EBT eat better than they do?

And who’s going to feed the kids for the rest of the month? Because fresh veggies are fucking expensive.

I have seen (and heard) the libertarian argument that once the government has granted the recipient the WIC or EBT cards, based on income or whatever, that the government should have no further say in how the money is spent.

Their theory (not mine) is that once the money is given, it is no longer under the purview (and control) of the agency; rather it is money under the control of the recipient, and the government cannot say or control how it is spent. Anything else – like the government saying you need to buy healthy food – is an unconstitutional infringement on the personal autonomy of the recipient.

I don’t agree, of course, but there is indeed a subgroup of the population that holds that view.

Exactly, @Seek. Next thing you know the government will be trying to discourage other perfectly legal things like tobacco and alcohol by taxing the hell out of them, claiming that better health is in everyone’s best interest.
I wouldn’t put it past the sneaky bastards to try to restrict the gas I use to make my living by taxing that!

So, you think WIC is a shit program because it tell Women with Infants and Children what products are eligible?

For breastfeeding moms, WIC is a metric fuckton of embarrassment stuffed in a shame sandwich. For people who need formula, it’s all of that, but at least you’re not paying for formula. I wouldn’t go through the trauma of using the WIC program again.

And there’s a massive difference between charging a tax for something and dictating what people are allowed to eat.

Then call it a tax.
Individual serving sugary drinks eat up your EBT points at 10 times the rate of milk.

I don’t see where WIC is anything to be embarrassed about. When I see someone using WIC I’m just glad their kids are getting enough to eat. Or, if not enough, then at least more than they would otherwise. I agree that the program should be modernized. Probably the liberals are afraid to bring any more attention to it than necessary, for fear the conservatives will try to strangle the program.

@Seek: I don’t even have a problem with M&M’s and chips. I have a problem with M&M’s and chips from bodegas where a bag of M&M’s is three times the price it would be in a supermarket or Walmart. That was my point. It discourages people from being thrifty, like I am with my money. As I said in my post, I don’t buy that stuff from places like that for because it’s way more money. If I do get stuff like that, 99% of the time I’m getting it from a grocery or place like Walmart, where you can get more for your money.

One of the therapists I used to work in connection with was working for the school system. People sometimes donated gift cards to the supermarket for families in need who were in the school system. The therapist told me that one mother wanted a gift card, and then the therapist found out that the mom was going to use it to give her kid a birthday party. Should people who are in need be denied birthday parties? No of course not, but that was not quite the intent of the person who donated and not the intent of the service at the school who gave the cards out.

@ibstubro – did you see my post, above, where I described the process of acquiring and using the vouchers?

For what you get, it’s a lot of hassle.

And in my case, I was lucky that I had a car. Lots of people have a really rough time getting to the WIC office for their every-six-weeks weigh-in, drug test, iron test, and “nutrition counseling”, and if you’re five minutes late for your appointment they make you set a new appointment.

Again, if you’re in need of baby formula, WIC is a great way to get it. But for “three quarts of milk, one 1lb bag of dried beans, 1 lb of carrots, 2 cans of tuna, and 1 48 oz bottle of apple juice”, fuck all of that noise.

I’d rather stand in line at a food pantry and fake my way through a church service if I were that hungry. At least then I don’t have the d-string phlebotomist team stabbing my veins.

Damn, appears that WIC is kind of a crappy program. Who needs a drug test for an armload of groceries. So what if the mom has drug issues, kids still need to eat. Sounds like the medical folks doing the screening are getting the bulk of taxpayer funds for this anyway.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – you’re talking sense and justice. The problem is that the right wing politicians begrudge every cent that is spent on social programs, and want to reduce spending regardless of the consequences (how many kids starve).

From the right wing point of view, welfare and WIC and all sorts of programs like that are just pigs feeding at the public trough. if the politicians could figure out a way to cut off that spending and not lose elections, they would.

The really funny bit is it would cost much less to operate the program without the drug tests and the “counseling”. But, you know, gotta make those poor babies pay for their Wheat Chex.

The right wingers ahem, myself included don’t all think that way. We just want to reduce waste and abuse. We still believe in lifelines and it’s a common misconception that we are hell bent against it. Where the right takes offense is when someone who is otherwise able, sentient and capable essentially lives off assistance. We all know one or two people like that. This is clearly a case where that sentiment went too far and too political. It’s really a shame.

Currently, WIC serves 53 percent of all infants born in the United States.
It’s unfair to judge the program by one person’s experience in a conservative state.
WIC is a program that is federally funded, state administered. I don’t think they’re still using vouchers here in the Midwest. According to my link, EBT cards are an option. Meaning states that aren’t vindictive about giving assistance to people in need have gone that route.

“Waste” and “abuse” are traditional conservative (I can’t believe I’m going to use this term!) “dog whistles”, @ARE_you_kidding_me.
I agree with what you said, but only because I in an internet sort of way I know you.