Are women pressured to reject stereotypically feminine things? Is this a problem?

I think women felt pressure to rejected these things in my time, during the height of what is referred to today as the Second Wave of Feminism, but I don’t see this very much today, in this time of the what is called the Third Wave. I think the young women of today feel freer to embrace their femininity, to wear all the frilly things and such that their mothers discarded. They are losing their fear of that and I think it is confusing to the boys of this era because, although it is very attractive, it’s not for them, but for the young women to be free to dress how they feel.

It’s been a very long, tortuous battle for women to finally get to this point, and there is a long road ahead, but I applaud them and their bravery to not ony bend to the cat calls of sexism, but take it to the next level from their mothers’ times, and dress exactly how they feel on any given day.

I don’t think so. I know quite a few very feminine women who very openly and obviously love pink things, jewellery and things that women are ‘supposed’ to like. I like stereotypically feminine things like perfume, clothes and shoes. However, there are some things – like shopping – that I’m not really into. I’m not into Rom-Coms or chick lit either. I don’t go ga-ga about babies.

I don’t think women’s choice to say “I don’t like that” has anything to do with men viewing our likes or dislikes or to do with how anyone at all will view us. I think it is simply true that we’re all individuals. I like stilettos, but I also love my hiking boots. I wear make-up, but I also choose to wear as little as possible most of the time. If asked to put myself on a feminine to masculine spectrum, I’d definitely put myself further over on the feminine side. I just don’t think anyone can pigeonhole anyone and say all or even most women will think, like, want anything. We are all individuals. When anyone tries to say ‘all women or most women” I think it’s to be expected that some women will say “I don’t fit that bill”. I don’t want to be pigeonholed.

The opposite. They are pressured to like stereotypical feminine things.

Surprised by the answers so far.

I ask because as a 15 year old I was convinced I was the best feminist in the world because I never wore make up (they should judge me by my insides, not my outsides!), I was well on my way to being a woman in STEM which is more of a stereotypically male field, and I dressed modestly because I didn’t want to be objectified. Now I realize that what I was doing was trying to be as much of a man as a woman can be while still being a woman, and thinking that that’s somehow what feminism is all about. Literally rejecting everything feminine.

The worst part is that I thought I was better than other women who were into “shallow” things like doing their nails or wearing high heels. That is the opposite of feminism.

It’s problematic to me that I thought I was in some way better for having rejected feminine traits. I wonder what put it into my head in the first place that those things were somehow “bad.”

I would most definitely define myself as a feminist, and yet, I am without doubt visibly feminine. I like to wear dresses, jewellery, heels and while I don’t care to over-do the make-up these days, that’s more about laziness than any ideological considerations relating to cosmetics.

I think the notion of what feminism is and what a feminist looks like and acts like has changed and continues to evolve. I don’t think that will every stop. Historically, a stereotypical impression of a feminist was a woman who denounced those feminine decorations. She didn’t need them. She was woman enough without them. I also wonder if because you went into the STEM field, that also influenced your rejection of feminine accessories? The way women are accepted in STEM occupations has also evolved. Would a very feminine woman be considered frivolous and perhaps sidelined now? Would she have been even 10 years ago?

My definition of feminism is that women should be able to have choices. They should have the choice to choose and advance in any career they want to enter. As long as they can physically do the job, the fact that they don’t have a penis should not hold them back. And women should have equal workloads, pay and access to the same opportunities and advancement as men in their field. I don’t believe we are here yet.

Women should be equally safe in society. We shouldn’t have to worry that our daughters will not be safe if they go to a party, or walk home. If they end up in a violent relationship or they are the victim of a rape, they should be treated fairly and equitably by our justice systems.

I don’t care whether women do or don’t shave their legs, their pits, wear make-up, have big hair, wear skirts or anything else that’s traditionally feminine or not. Women should be able to choose to be homemakers or career-makers. For me, feminism is all about choice and equality. The rest is just window-dressing.

I realize how it sounds when a man tries to tell a woman “what feminism is.”

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but to me, Feminism means that a women can feel 100% comfortable being free to express herself however she wants. If she wants to embrace traditionally feminine styles that’s cool, if she wants to dress in traditionally masculine styles, that’s also cool. If she wants to be POTUS, a coal miner, astronaut, software engineer, or even a sex worker—it’s up to her. It’s about freedom and empowerment.

@gorillapaws, seems like a great definition of feminism to me.

@Mariah that has always been a point of contention with me. Typically I’m usually drawn to types who do their own thing and dare I say are a little tomboyish but once it’s clear that it’s political and a result of some programming, there is no bigger turn off. It does not project confidence or strength of character that was originally attractive.
Ultimately the one I chose to spend my days with is very girly but still manages to keep up with a weekend of hard, dirty work clearning brush. She is her natural self and I feel strongly that third wave feminism is probably causing more harm than good when it keeps people from being themselves. First and most of second wave did not do that. Once that movement crossed from being an equal rights engine to influencing how young girls behave it went wrong. Such is the way of politics though.

I suppose it’s a matter of perspective, but I believe it’s a mistake to think that feminism is about rejecting girly stuff. To get my drift on this, ask yourself why it is that the choice to wear sensible shoes and comfortable functional clothing should be regarded as “manlike”. I do have a strong bias against makeup and a lot of other things considered stereotypically female precisely because femininity should not be defined by one’s willingness to ruin her feet wearing “pretty” shoes or hours of devotion to slathering crap on her face. To my mind the decisions you made initially were sound, brginning with the big one of refusing to accept that your career of choice was “a man’s job”. Your rejection of makeup and high heeled shoes is perfectly consistent with your outlook on your chosen field. It merely allows you equal footing with your peers. Ask yourself why it is that all of the impractical and frivolous things are “stereotypically female”? Why are women conditioned to reject the power tool as a sign of genuine affection in preference to the sappy card and box of chocolates? In the other thread where I mentioned that my response regarding the longevity of my marriage, “I do as I’m told”, I understand the irritation of both you and my wife in the implication that she’s bossy. But that view dismisses the possibility that she orders me about very little as well as the fact that her judgement on many matters is more sound than my own. “I do as I’m told” may just be easier than “I do as I’m told because she is invariably right.” I have a great attraction to strong sensible women and that trait has proven to be a tremendous asset in my lucky life.

I think certain women are non conformists when it comes to ‘girly’ things.

Of note : I used to sell fitness equipment. Boxing and MMA gear is one of my specialties. We had women come in frequently wanting g boxing gloves, bag gloves, mouth pieces, wrist wraps etc. Almost ALL the gear is pink. Interestingly enough, almost ALL women who would purchase such products HATED pink. They felt it demeaned what they were doing.

Softball equipment in the same store, same problem. All the stuff is pibk or has pink in it. Lots of girls playing sports didn’t seem to like the colors.

Things that fit ,or are designed for women in sports are frequently pink. A lot of women complained about that.

I think they just want the same respect as male athletes, and having to wear all pink makes them think their being condescended to or something.

Yeah, I’m not trying to make a fashion statement, I just want gloves that fit.

Keep the frills, lace, and pink. Or make it an option but not the ONLY option.

The all pink everything smacks of “isn’t it cute you want to try this, too?”

Growing up, I was pressured to be super feminine.

If I asked for Ninja Turtles, I got Barbies. I wanted baseball, I got makeup. I was forced to wear skirts for religious reasons, even while swimming, and to keep my hair uncut.

Even when I was working with my stepfather as a landscaper, I wasn’t allowed to work at my own church, which was one of our contracts, because my “place” was doing women’s work inside.

It was downright oppressive.

So if I have a distaste for lace and flowers and pink, that’s why.

As an adult, making my own choices, I love makeup. I like to do my hair (and have it cut). I like to dress up and wear jewelry sometimes. Other times I like my band t-shirts and jeans.

Sometimes I want to build furniture, sometimes I want to sew a dress. Whatever.

^^ Can’t say I blame you for getting the hell out of that scene.

I agree, now, that feminism is about women being able to make whatever choices they want. Certainly didn’t get that back when I was that shitty 15 year old.

@Espiritus_Corvus‘s comment made me curious about the timing of the “waves” and it looks like third-wave started around the time I was born. So, perhaps, lots of the books and other media I grew up on was written with a more second-wave view. That could explain a lot. Lots of the shows I watched as a kid still had the tired stereotype of the pretty but brainless cheerleader antagonist.

@ARE_you_kidding_me “I feel strongly that third wave feminism is probably causing more harm than good when it keeps people from being themselves. First and most of second wave did not do that.”

I very much disagree, it sounds to me like second wave feminism might be what got it into my head in the first place that I needed to reject everything “girly” and it is only the third wave that is showing me that feminism isn’t about that, it is about my freedom to be however I want and am. Exactly backwards from what you just said.

Possibly second did that but I have always associated that with more third wave although there is no real time line to distinguish the two. I can’t say there is any real cohesion with current third wave feminists though. Many have it right but many also do not. There does not seem to be any overeaching goal. It’s whatever you want it to be which is where I have a problem. The blogosphere and disconnected academics are not helping either. Concepts like patriarchy, and rape culture come out and it starts getting quite bizzare and cult like. Consequently it starts becoming divisive right at the point where we were about to get along properly. I think a lot of people get the wrong idea on both ends. You clearly have the right perspective so I can’t say I really disagree with you. Not sure why you have to be a “feminist” to just do your own thing though.

So because I don’t like typical feminine things means I’m trying to make a statement? How about I just hate shopping and wasting time and money on makeup and I’d rather wear comfortable clothes? When I was younger I would look at older women wearing shorts and showing their varicose veins and cellulite. I thought it was gross and I told myself I’d cover up if it ever happened to me. Then I got older and developed cellulite, varicose veins and cracked heels. I then decided I didn’t give a crap what anyone else thought. I wasn’t going to avoid flip flops and shorts just to please everyone else. I’m going to wear what’s comfortable.

I like what I like because I just do. Not for any other reason. So no, I’m not going to go to a spa with the girls and get my nails done and drink wine. I’d rather go fishing and have a few beers because that’s what interests me.

“Please note that I’m not trying to imply that women who are not into stereotypically feminine things are in any way being disingenuous.”

From the OP.

I’m sure plenty of women who are not into girly stuff are just genuinely that way. Some women, like teenage me, might be trying to force themselves into something they think they should be. I am not saying all women are.

I’ve changed over the years but my parents were old so there were ingrained stereotypical expectations. When I moved back home to help mom get through chemo my dadsaid (out of frustration I suppose) why don’t you go back home to New Zealand and make a baby. (No one knew I separated from my husband a year before).

I only read a few of the responses, but I would like to think that women are being pressured into doing whatever it is they feel like doing, to feel whatever they are actually feeling without being told, “Nice girls don’t feel that way.” “Nice girls don’t try to take charge.” Whatever.

What a lovely question. When I was younger I did feel pressure to give up all things feminine. I went a bit too far. I was called ‘sir’ a few times by random service people.
Along with that, went my vulnerability, softness and so on. Anything attributed to being female.

Now that I am older I crave it all.

Maybe it’s just the space I am in. I wouldn’t mind a hunky guy, that didn’t cry to come and change my tire, amongst other things and I adore makeup!

In high school I was firmly pressured into NOT enrolling in shop class / industrial arts when I wanted to. Girls weren’t interested in that kind of thing. We didn’t have the brains for it. Enroll in home ec and make an apron and cook some brownies.

It’s like those women who dress, as they see it, “like a princess” all ball gowny & pink & frilly, blinged up to the eyeballs & big flouncy hair.
Err, have you seen the state of Princess Anne, or as us Brits call her, Horseface.

I think most women who aren’t into girly things are genuinely that way. The sad thing is there aren’t many of us. I feel more women conform to fit in with the girly girls. You even mentioned in a previous question that you would be viewed as a social pariah if you didn’t conform @Mariah.

I have a very difficult time making girlfriends as an adult. I’ll get invited by women to go shopping or have a spa day or attend a PartyLite party, but I don’t like those activities. Meanwhile my husband is invited by the men to go fishing or watch the game or go four-wheeling and I sit at home envious. I want to do things, not buy things. My only female friends are friends from school who live miles away or online girlfriends. We have common interests, but miles separate us.

I made that that statement because I was the girl who put zero effort into my appearance and I was ostracized for it. I’m still not a “girly girl” but I’ve dropped my dogmatic hatred of everything pink that I had only because I thought it would make me look smarter.

Mariah the Pariah.

@jonsblond I am the same way. It is very difficult to find female friends who are interested in the kinds of things I am. I want to discus evolution, they want to discuss things on sale at IKEA.

@Mariah, just curious was it mostly women, men or both equally doing the ostracising?

But I love IKEA!

And the free section on Craigslist.

And while I’m not great at fishing, I throw a mean cast net, @jonsblond, so bait is on me.

I’ll bring the brownies if @Dutchess_III brings the beer.

@Seek Yeah but you’re a million miles away!

@ARE_you_kidding_me women wouldn’t be my friends; men accepted me as a friend but never looked at me as someone they’d date.

I feel like even this thread is turning into a blasting party of more feminine women.

Well, it should not be. Young people are shallow but it’s a shallowness out of fear and uncertainty. We have all seen it and I’m willing to wager this experience was in adolescence for you and not in adulthood.

I don’t think it is @Mariah. I haven’t heard anyone say anything negative about feminism on this thread.

How are we blasting feminine things? Women are pressured to be girly at a young age and it never stops. By simply stating that some of us don’t like these things is blasting it? If we don’t like these things there must be an ulterior motive? Women just can’t win.

@jonsblond Meanwhile my husband is invited by the men to go fishing or watch the game or go four-wheeling and I sit at home envious.

Why can’t you go with him?

It’s a guy thing. My husband would much prefer that I go with him and his buddy when they go fishing and stuff, but you can tell his friend doesn’t want women around. (Te few times we’ve had him and his wife out to our camp site she bitched about the bugs and heat the whole time. I didn’t want her around either.) He just wants the guys.
His friend is pushing 70 so that’s the generation he grew up in. No changing that.

Like I already said, I’m not saying there has to be an ulterior motive for not being feminine. I also don’t think saying you don’t like those things is blasting it. I’ll just say it, this is the statement that irked me:

“I want to discus evolution, they want to discuss things on sale at IKEA.”

That and others like it in this thread to me just reeked of “I’m so much deeper than those shallow women.”

Maybe I am being oversensitive.

I didn’t say they were deeper. Our interests are completely different.

K. I must be reading a tone that wasn’t there. Sorry for overreacting.

Let’s go to IKEA and talk about evolution over free coffee and super-cheap meatballs.

^^^There ya go. And non-mint brownies. And cheesecake.

To be honest, I can’t really talk about those things with many men I know, IRL, either. I’ll say to my husband, “Do you ever wonder why….” and he’ll just look at me as I’m musing, then say, “No. I don’t wonder about it.” End of the conversation.

Hahaha, I tried to talk with Hubby about evolutionary psychology the other night. I’m listening to this lecture series on the topic.

He just kind of waited for me to stop talking and said, “I’m pretty sure you’re a lot smarter than me. But you ask me anything about those records up there.”

LOL!!

I don’t believe an individual can be “pressured” in to anything.

Male or female a person is ultimately the only responsible party involved in how they choose to respond and react to outside stimulus.

Yes, but it is soooo subtle, @Blondesjon, and it begins so very early on. As an infant. It begins long before a girl really understands that she doesn’t have to act this way. It can be hard to shuck, mentally, as an adult.

I guess the question I’m asking, then, is whether pressures exist. Whether people give in to those pressures or not is separate.

I felt pressured to reject stereotypically feminine things when I was growing up. This was especially confusing since I happened to be someone who loved dance, the theatre, playing dress-up, playing with dolls, watching Disney princess movies, etc. So I would do things like scoff at Barbie dolls even while I had, and enthusiastically played with, Barbie dolls at home. I also learned to associate math and science with strength, and more artistic pursuits with being weak or inferior or feminine. So I would talk about the athletic aspects of dance while secretly liking the performance aspects, and I would talk about the importance of fact and non-frivolity while I would fill up notebooks with the stories and poems I had written and hidden. And I felt guilty about holding on to these more “frivolous” or “weak” things that I enjoyed. For a long time, I declared that I “hated” dresses and skirts, any sort of lace or other adornment, anything pink—feeling that it made me appear too feminine, which I equated with appearing vapid and lesser.

I was never very good at letting go of the things I liked, but I was quite good at hiding them and feeling guilty about them and convincing myself that I didn’t like them or want them. Until I started to realize that, actually, I did.

We’re pressured a million different ways every day for a million different reasons.

Once you realize that you are under no obligation to conform to any of those reasons you just kind of quit stressing about it.

Of course pressure exists, in so many, many different aspects. Not just for women, but for men and children too. Well, what @Soubresaut said.

I think it’s cool that my 6’4 son wears pink Tshirts that his work provides him, with his name embroidered on them. He is so cool. The color looks good on him, especially when he’s tanned from working outside.

@Soubresaut and I are about the same age and apparently had very similar experiences. I wonder if there was a certain brand of feminism in the air during that period that affected us both. Really interesting, guys, thanks for having the discussion.

Hm. That’s a good point.

I was born in 1985, when working women’s fashion was the Power Suit. and boxy cuts to mask a feminine figure. Short hair. Minimalistic jewelry, including a fashion for clip-on earrings so as not to show pierced ears at work. Even fashion models were chosen for broad shoulders and small breasts and thin hips.

Dress for success, ladies! Women wear aprons, we’re working in a men’s world!

I agree @Mariah. I think it might be generational. I didn’t feel pressured to not like girly things. It was the opposite for me. I was born in 71.

My daughter is dealing with the same issues I did. She’s 12. She felt pressure to be girly and tried, but she finally gave that up and is developing her own identity. She’d rather wear pants when she needs to dress up and she’d rather shop at Hot Topic than Justice.

Oh, their certainly was a toxic brand of feminism then. I was on the receiving end of some of it from a few teachers on a mission. I saw my sisters and my wife to a certain extent fall prey to it. All over it now so it’s a relief to hear this side of the coin from others. Some of the scary things about any political movement is the potential to hijack good intentions. Feminism is particularly vulnerable because of the high emotions involved. There are elements of it still and yet new sprouts of toxicity but seemingly less damage is done by it now for average folks. Just being yourself is not a particularly revolutionary idea.

This thread has gone a bit awry. I definitely feel women that are very feminine can talk about important topics and are very educated. I had a friend for e.g. (I have a zillion examples) that was a chemical engineer and had an MBA. She was super feminine. She could talk about very important subjects then argue why chanel eyeshadow was better than Dior!

As for myself, I was treated like a boy by a father who wished I was one. My mom despised frills and even hated long hair, so it was crewcuts for me.

I’ve never had the ‘bow on the hair’ dilemma. I think for me it is like trying new things :) I’d love to be more feminine. Even my decor is a tad masculine. I think the frill thing really got to me!

Raising a little girl, there’s certainly pressure from both sides. There’s pressure from myself and my wife to raise a strong, independent young lady who values herself and the things we think are important like intelligence or empathy. There’s pressure to do right by my mother, who was so strong and able I never knew women were “supposed” to be less until much later. The pressure from the overly feminine side comes from just about everywhere else. The toys, just about every interaction with people in public, the shows, the clothes, the haircut place, pretty much everything. Everyone means well, it’s just the norm, so it feels like it needs to be countered.

I try to tell myself when we do it, it’s not “pressure” it’s “guidance” but I’m not sure there’s a difference. I’m sure the “guidance” will increase in the future when the stakes seem a little higher. Maybe guidance turns to pressure as she becomes her own person? I don’t know.

I wonder how I’d do as a father if my daughter comes home one day and tells me she wants to compete in toddler beauty pageants or something. Part of me thinks the encouragement is what’s important and I should support her, part of me would rather she joins a cult. It seems unlikely, but she just turned 4 and after being an American Ninja Warrior and a galloping herd of unicorns with her friends the last two halloweens, this year it’s all about being a princess. I keep suggesting other things, but she’ll probably end up being a princess of some kind. If I’m honest, I guess part of me wonders if I’m failing to show her better role models than teenage girls who long for men’s love and pretty dresses.

So I guess I pressure her to give up girly things to some extent, or at least to check out the other options. Thinking it through, I wouldn’t try to talk her out of being an astronaut, robot, or broccoli.

I would imagine when she’s a teenager and starts making her own choices, independent of my sage counsel (:P) that may manifest as judgement of those that made different choices than she did. But I think that’s true of just about any choice, especially at that age.

As far as earning respect from men by rejecting feminine things. I think it’s a little more complex than that. There’s an imbalance where men are less likely to be accepted doing traditionally feminine things than women doing masculine things. I have a friend who says men want relationships with people they can understand and women want someone who understands them. I think it’s overly generalized, because of course there’s people on both sides, but summarizes traditional roles relationships (romantic, work, and friendship) pretty well.

So I think there’s a pressure to reject traditionally feminine things, but only as a counter to the constant assumption that young ladies are longing to be as girly as possible, if they just had the means.

Do you think our society has attached a negative connotation to stereotypically feminine things?
My take on it is it feminism that looks at it more negatively as it reinforces some belief that embracing such makes a woman less equal.

Do you think women earn respect from men when they reject those things?
If a woman is into tools and cars, and getting her hands dirty while shunning all the war paint, I can say it is a plus but I can’t say it is enough of a plus to vault her past those who like heels, skirts, and getting her nails done, hopefully I would find both sides in a woman.

Do you see this as problematic in any way?
Yes, in many ways….

It seems to me that the pressure to conform to the girly stereotypes is much more intense than any resistance out there to conformity. And that pressure is relentless and so pervasive that the evidence is undeniable. In fact the evidence is overwhelming as well as insidious, and the resulting penalties to women pervade every aspect of our lives. THIS is the actual reason for the disparity in income between men & women, and why Mariah finds herself virtually isolated on the job in a sea of men. It is also the reason it will cost you twice as much at the cleaners to launder a woman’s blouse as compared to a man’s shirt. It is a distortion of actuality to regard contempt for the girly industry as an attempt to strip women of their femininity. That well deserved contempt is derived from the recognition that girliness is the indespensable requirement to keeping women “in their place”.

If I felt pressure in my youth it was to be feminine. Because I’m female my choices for a career were retail, an office or to be a nurse. Nobody even mentioned the idea of me going on to university or having a career. I remember wanting to do art courses at school and being told typing was a much more sensible choice. I certainly didn’t feel pressure to present as more masculine. I was a female. I needed to get a bog standard job, find a man and then get married and have children. You need to look pretty and feminine to achieve those high brow goals.

@funkdaddy – Why not take the opportunity to introduce your daughter to some historical princesses that were legit badasses? Queen Elizabeth I, for instance? or Princess Kaiulani of Hawaii?

There’s no reason your daughter can’t aspire to be both a princess and a strong, fierce woman. Princesses have power! They should absolutely know how to use it to make their subjects’ lives better, rather than spend all their time fawning over some stableboy.

I love following A Mighty Girl on Facebook. Their website is here. They are nothing but positive books, movies, etc. for girls, all about empowerment, strength, etc. And they don’t shy away from princesses and unicorns; they just avoid the princess stories that revolve around the princess herself being a background character in her own story.

^Insightful as always @Seek. I love the last part where you mention the ‘princess being a background character in her own story.’

I wish more females had thought provoking, problem solving characters, and toys growing up.

As soon as they can hold something, we give little boys fake guns, and little girls fake babies. Then we wonder why are men are thugs and our women have kids at early ages, with no education.

Women are at least as important to men in society, if not more. They should be raised as such. Not raised thinking a ‘prince’ will come along and solve every problem. Women should be taught to rule the kingdom.

I should have known better. I’ll keep my kids out of it from now on.

@Seek – I’m aware of Mighty Girl. Sally Ride here is a friend and fellow unicorn of the herd.

My daughter won’t lack for options, the question here (as it relates to parenting) is how much femininity to encourage and is there any reason to steer our daughters away.

The love for Mighty Girl and their message tends to show the same questions I have. How do we empower girls without making them impersonate men? How do they use their special super powers to do more in a world that tends to expect less autonomy from women?

Well, we can stop equating autonomy and power with maleness, for one.

@Seek – We can stop doing that ourselves. We can encourage our families not to do that. But we can’t make that true for the world.

Pretending the world is how I’d like it to be won’t help anyone.

You “encourage” as much femininity as your daughter wants to display @funkdaddy.

I think the biggest problem for girls and women, historically, has not been encouragement. It’s been discouragement. My father pulled me out of college in my Sophomore year. He didn’t want to pay the tuition any more. He told me I didn’t need a college degree. I just needed to find a man to marry and have him take care of me. I was on a fast track for becoming a professional journalist.

But, I listened to my dad. And 15 years later I was divorced, flat broke, with four kids to take care of all by myself.

A problem on a personal level. Aesthetically, the less feminine the lady, the less I want to have anything do with her. Symmetry, and proportionality has greater significance to me than makeup and clothing.

If I marry, then in terms of behavior, I would only want a wife who is a homemaker and a mother who raises our children. I wouldn’t want her to work. I wouldn’t want external influences such as a babysitter having an impact on my children.

”.... Symmetry, and proportionality has greater significance…” That’s universal @mayday01. Clothing and make up only enhance it. They don’t create it.
And if you find someone you want to marry, better make sure you two are on the same page. You can’t force a woman to do something she doesn’t want to do. Not any more. (Yay feminism!)

How is it universal? If someone has a big crooked nose with big ears, and a small head, with a slanted eye, they’re certainly not symmetrical or proportional. An obese person does not have the same symmetry and proportionality as someone who is fit or athletic.

I wouldn’t marry someone where I had to use force or had to compromise in anything. I would divorce someone in a split second if they made me compromise on anything or put me in a position where I needed to use force. That is what dating is for. You figure it out before you marry.

Good symmetry and proportion is the universal definition of beauty, whether we know it consciously or not.

no babysitters ever? Harsh.

Worse than harsh. It’s an outlook prone to disaster.

@mayday01 If I marry, then in terms of behavior, I would only want a wife who is a homemaker and a mother who raises our children. I wouldn’t want her to work. I wouldn’t want external influences such as a babysitter having an impact on my children.
Are you mad!?!? ~~~ To say something ”misogynistic sounding” (not that it is really) in this place? The babysitter is SUPPOSED to do the heavy lifting in child rising, where would the challenge be for parents to undo the bad habits acquired from the babysitter? ~~ What about the poor sellers of ”Nannycams”, they could not sell those gadgets to mothers who have to check up on their hired stand-ins while they are on their break instead of enjoying their break, to make sure the little nipper is not getting slapped around for not eating his stained peas, or worse. A woman staying AT HOME RAISING CHILDREN? ~~ That is the nuttiest thing since thinking eagle are supposed to fly. ~~ In THIS PLACE homemaker = slave. ~~

OK, had my chuckle, but lurve that, had to Atta boy you on that one.

@Hypocrisy_Central what on earth are you blathering about?

Well, the girls in my class of 76 are planning a girl’s outing for next month. I want to go, but I don’t want to go to a spa. :/

I am a homemaker. I still get a babysitter from time to time. Mama needs a night off sometimes.

I was a homemaker too for the first 10 years of my marriage.

^ What, volunteered to be a slave!?! ~~~ I would have never figured. ~~

Keep beating those straw men.

^ Do tell, you are saying no female here (maybe most) do not see staying at home bring up children not equal a slave, when they could be out launching rockets, building bridges, winning court cased, and doing other things traditionally seen as ‘men’s work”?

It is fine to be a homemaker. As long as it is what the woman has chosen. It is problematic for a husband to force his wife to be a homemaker.

Feminism is about letting women make their choices. Homemaker is a totally valid choice.

That’s literally what I’ve been arguing for this whole thread. I was calling my younger self a bad feminist for having looked down on women who didn’t choose more traditionally masculine careers.

I’d love to stay home and raise the kids. Seems like a dream job.

^^^^ Why?

I wasn’t a slave @Hypocrisy_Central.

Why? Because it would be great. I wouldn’t have to punch a clock.I get to spend time with my children. Can’t get fired. Don’t have a boss, or coworkers.
I can go to work in sandals, or no shoes at all. When the wife gets home I have dinner for her,because I have time to cook.
My present job is fairly violent, wouldn’t have to worry about getting beat up or shot or stabbed anymore.
Being a stay at home Dad would be heaven.

Oh brother. Yeah. Piece of cake @MrGrimm888. That’s the misperceptions of people who’ve never done it which is why so many stay at home Mothers are maligned by so many.
You’re on call 24 /7, no sick leave, work 12 to 14 hours a day, 7 days a week with few breaks. Constantly moving.
Small business owners don’t have bosses either. They can also wear what ever they want. Ergo owning your own business is a piece of cake. Right?
It’s not for the faint of heart.

Just watching a few of my grandkids for a day wears me OUT. That’s why God gives children to young people.

When did I EVER mention it being a piece of cake? I never mentioned anything that I perceived as insulting, or malignant.
I only mentioned things I found appealing.

When I worked at the emergency veterinary hospital, I worked plenty of 16 hour shifts. Often cleaning up blood,guts, urine, vomit, and every form of feces. Not to mention the harder parts of the job. I did that for 10 years almost. I cried like three times a week from the stress. If I can take care of 10 -50 patients a night in my OCU with various ailments , I can raise several healthy kids, and enjoy the experience. Knowing that the time I’m putting in is for the benefit of my family.

What’s so wrong about that? Where is the imagined insult?

So, if somebody says they could do my job,and enjoy it, I should be insulted?

^ICU, not OCU…Thanks ‘smart phone. ’~

@Dutchess_III That’s the misperceptions of people who’ve never done it which is why so many stay at home Mothers are maligned by so many.
You’re on call 24 /7, no sick leave, work 12 to 14 hours a day, 7 days a week with few breaks. Constantly moving.
Is that not the reasons and more so many women view it as slavery or servitude, the joy of spending so much time with the kids becoming a curse? Running a bulldozer or wheeling a tractor trailer rig is so much more refreshing and you are seen as doing something more important. ~~

@MrGrimm888 Dutch easily gets upset when men speak.

@hypo so many women view it as slavery or servitude, the joy of spending so much time with the kids becoming a curse? Running a bulldozer or wheeling a tractor trailer rig is so much more refreshing [...]

It’s the dependency that’s bothering. When a man or woman does “housewifing”, that person is financially sustained by their spouse or partner, and comes to depend on the spouse for it. If they want to leave their spouse for any reason, they’ll have a hard time. After a few years out of the job market, all you can get if you try to get back to it is low-pay entry-level positions… Cashier at Walk Mart or something…

Reasons for which my wife worked all her life and grossed more money than I did at some point: she didn’t want to depend on me. Vice versa, i had once the opportunity to become a house husband (wife was employed and not me, with young kids to care for) and while i enjoyed it for a couple of month, i got out as soon as some guy called me with a job offer. I didn’t want to depend on her income too much. She’s enough of a boss already.

I’ve been a stay-at-home mom for over 10 years and I love it. I’d hate to have to punch a timeclock and work weekends or overtime. My job isn’t easy, but I’m my own boss. Rarely do I get a day off, but I can schedule my day so it’s not grueling. The best part is knowing a parent is always available for the children. We don’t have to worry about taking time off work or missing pay to care for a sick child.

This another one of those assertions that drives me apoplectic. Who EXACTLY is busy demeaning stay at home moms?

@Hypocrisy Central The supposed conspiracy against the stay at home housewife is bullshit. The collapse of the model is clearly about economics. There is indeed some recognition on the part of some women no longer denied (in theory) the same opportunities as men that child rearing is inordinately expensive as well as risky. But the overwhelming reason that child rearing is increasingly an ambition for suckers is that most people can simply not afford to rear children. And middle class existence is a virtual impossibility for the average household with a single income.

@Hypocrisy_Central It’s servitude if you’re forced, or pressured in any way, to do it. It’s not servitude if you and your SO both want it. Do you understand that?

My point was that it is not a piece of cake like everyone, especially men who have never attempted it, seem to think it is.

Yep. There are a lot of advantages to it, @jonsblond. And we wear a lot of different hats. And sometimes end up “babysitting” for the whole neighborhood whose mother’s work. I did. That’s actually the genesis of my daycare. And caring for 6 – 10 kids is, of course, is a piece of cake because I get to wear what I want. I could get up any time I wanted, as long as it was by 5:30 a.m.

A worthy read.

I wonder how much different this thread would look if we didn’t know everyone’s gender.

I think there is this societal push back to very feminine things. I know because when I dress up I often have to defend it. When it got to that point I just started dressing up at least 50% of the time and then give people the evil eye when they start to form the words. I attribute part of this attitude to my “fuck you forties”. I’m not caring much what “society” tells me to do.

And I wouldn’t say that I am particularly girly. But sometimes I revel in it.

Who EXACTLY is busy demeaning stay at home moms?

Try being a stay-at-home parent and you’ll witness it. Take my in-laws for example. My bitch of a SIL cussed me out for not helping care for her mother after her surgery. Even though I live 90 miles from them and our family has one vehicle. I take my husband to and from work as well as my daughter to and from school. I was never asked to help, so when I didn’t offer I was called a lazy bum who spends all day on facebook. Don’t get me started.

I can’t get a credit card in my name because I don’t have an income. My husband and I have shared the same banking account for 24 years, but I’m denied a card.

Yep, don’t get me started. I’ll be here all night with examples. It’s not a supposed conspiracy.

YOU should correct that credit card thing, and get to work on it QUICKLY. I’m surprised that either you or your husband tolerates anything so lopsided in this day and age.

There was a 3 year period in which I could afford to be the house husband. And I got damned good at it. My kids to this day are fixated on those days and so is my wife. There’s no question that a parent at home is ideal, but for the great majority of people such a luxury borders on the impossible.

I’m glad you’ve posted @stanleybmanly. I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t be the father who stays home if a family feels having one parent in the home is essential and they can afford it. If a woman has a career, or the husband wants to be the person looking after the home and family, why shouldn’t fathers take on this role?

^As I said. I’d love to be a stay at home Dad. Sign me up.

Geez, can’t you all see how accurate @Hypocrisy_Central has nailed this subject? Where I live in Norway, they put the children in day care when they turn about one year old. Look at how poorly the Norwegians do in quality of life and opportunities and they always rate as such a bad place to live because of the consequences of this culture of women working and equal rights… ..... um… oh… wait,,, What? What is that you said? I got it completely backwards? Oh, ooops.

but Seriously, what HC always fails to understand that, it isn’t that women always want to go build bridges and launch rockets and save the planet, but equality means that there is a CHOICE. Having a family doesn’t mean a woman should have fewer choices in her life. Simple as that.

He would, equally, deny choice to men. Any man who will change diapers while “his” woman brings home the bacon would be equally distasteful as a woman who chooses to work outside the home.

So you see, he’s all about “equality”.

A particularly powerful lecture on this subject.

Regarding the video above: Is moderation really grabbing people’s attention in any aspect of life right now? I think the speaker is fighting an uphill battle larger than feminism.

Calling each other out by name in lectures at Wellesley is my new favorite method of public feuding.

Feminist Academic Beef.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Not sure I like Sommers, but I should read her books. There ARE huge pressures put on boys to behave in certain ways. It’s the other half of the gender conversation that never seems to happen: what about them boys?

Are they pressured—or worse, medicated—to reject stereotypically masculine things, like fighting or running around like crazy? Inversly, are they pressured to accept stereotypically masculine things, such as sport, competition or emotional dumbness?

And why oh why do we allow their genitals to be mutilated so frequently ? Speaking of circumcision here. Who in his/her right mind can justify genital mutilation in this day and age? And yet it’s still done on boys the world over.

I’m not 100% with her either but so far she has been the only “mainstream” feminist that seems reasonably equitable. She’s sort of a pariah in their circles though.

I have a young boy, and very strong feelings about how society treats boys, but this is a discussion about girls. Please feel free to start another thread about society’s treatment of boys if you like, but as a woman in so over every conversation about women and girls becoming one of ”well what about boys and men!?!”

That was not the subject of that speech. It was exactly what the OP was asking.

Gender relations cannot be analysed or understood by looking at only one gender. It’d be like trying to understand the atom by looking only at the electrons, and not at protons and neurons… It would lead absolutely nowhere. Likewise, to try and discuss how society pressures girls into X or Y without any mention of the pressures exerted on boys would be misleading, IMO.

Pressures may be harder on boys than on girls, in certain societies and cultures, and in any case pressure exerted on boys (girls) will have an impact on the adult men (women) they become, and have an influence on women (men) in their lives. Genders are much more entangled than most people would like to think.

@Kiding:
so far she has been the only “mainstream” feminist that seems reasonably equitable.

Maybe she’s more egalitarian than most. She’s certainly more articulate and logical than many, and I appreciate her non-blindness on boys. Many feminists are blind to the masculine half the world.

When men are hurt by gender inequality, that is also a feminist issue.

Not to mention that gender inequality is perpetuated by both men and women through education. So the idea that there are ‘women’s issues’ neatly separated from ‘men’s issues’ is just not true. In fact it’s all connected.

Well, to answer the question, if there is any pressure out there for women to rejct “stereotypically feminine things,” it is not nearly as strong as the unrelenting pressure for women to look, pretty, dress nice, act a certain way, and to keep their man happy, at any expense.

@Mariah It’s a humanitarian issue. Call it feminist if you want but that’s not really what it is. At this point I feel pretty strongly that working together does not mean we do it from a gynocentric lens or an androcentric one either.

Remember, @Mariah – referring to anything using the “fem-” prefix is insulting to men, so to coddle their precious feelings you should stop being a feminist, which is a word with an already established meaning of one who fights for gender equality, and use “humanist” instead, even though that is also an established word for an non-worshiping religious persuasion.

Who said humanist? What is so hard to understand that when people start looking after the rights of everyone and not just women in particular that it’s not really “feminist” anymore. But if there is and established meaning other than women’s rights I’d like to hear it. When you say gender equality what you really mean is women’s equality. Again, call yourself feminist if you want but if you want more credibility you’ll simply stand up for the issues as a person. Many people cast an evil eye on someone who claims to be “feminist” myself included. Honestly when I hear that from a stranger I don’t know if I should say thank you and offer up a hug or run for the hills. Just being honest.

In that case the problem is one of perception, and the problem is your own.

I am not going to neuter myself in the public eye in order to speak for equality. I am a woman. I believe women and men should have equal rights. I believe men should have the right to pursue traditionally feminine avenues of work and enjoyment if they so choose, and I believe women should have the right to pursue traditionally masculine avenues.

I believe people should stop telling young girls they are bossy and bitchy and stop telling boys they are pussies when they cry.

I believe my friend who is an attending physician should not be looked at on a several-times-a-day basis by patients and staff alike as “not a real doctor” because she is short and female and is wearing scrubs instead of a pencil skirt and high heels.

I believe people should not mentally equate the word “feminist” with something that is bad because they’re a straight white man and are used to having all the power and damn if they still do but it’s just not as much fun anymore.

@Seek – that whole dialog could have been copied from a Men’s Rights Movement website with very few changes. But I doubt we would consider someone speaking out agains those groups a problem of perception.

But I’m just a straight white man… upset about my power and all that. Off to plot.

I agree with you up until the last paragraph. Saying you are a feminist and being rude about it sure does not really help. I’m 40, straight, white and male I don’t have any mythical power because of it. My grandfather’s generation sure but not mine. My generation took the blunt edge of affirmative action. My company still gives preferential treatment to females because of the low numbers of women in STEM. It’s no secret, it’s law. My supervisors are female, many of my coworkers are. A good deal of my instructors grading me in school were female. Not to mention black or of other minority. I’m not really raw about it either with the exception of a few old high school instructors but we all have one or two of those. Having other perspectives from people different than me has been a good thing. If you want to keep beating this straight white male horse some more it’s not helping your credibility any….and I’m not one of those fucking MRA types either. How is simply not proclaiming you are a feminist neutering yourself?

I’m 40, straight, white and male I don’t have any mythical power because of it.

Yes, you do.

How is simply not proclaiming you are a feminist neutering yourself?
Because it’s still a straight white male telling me what to do because he thinks he knows my fight better than I do.

Boy, we have lots of those here. They’re especially expert on the female anatomy.

What mythical powers do I have that you don’t? It’s not just your fight either.

@Dutchess_III I was not in on that female orgasm conversation.

Didn’t say you were. Not ALL men are egotistical enough to believe they know more about women than women know themselves.

You are the default.

In the USA, everything that is done is done with you as the baseline. Appeal to the straight white men, and then throw in something for the minorities (including women, because women aren’t 50%+ of the population or anything, we’re a special interest group).

Every industry in the US takes care of straight white men first. Look at healthcare. When was the last time you had to fight for the right to treatment of a normal medical condition for your demographic? When was the last time you checked what church the local hospital was affiliated with, in fear they might choose to not save your life?

When was the last time you had to worry you were being singled out by the police?
When was the last time you purposely changed the way you were walking – perhaps started moving more slowly, with your hands not moving much, because there was a cop car three houses away and you can’t afford to take chances?
When was the last time you were afraid someone would assault you in public for what you were wearing?
When was the last time you feared reporting something someone had done to harm you, because you might be blamed for it?
When was the last time you feared telling someone you were not interested in dating them, because they might hurt you?

When was the last time you had to fight your boss for the right to be a parent?

If you name a business with your own last name, you don’t have to worry people will skip over you in the Google results because your name carries a negative connotation. Nope, you’re good and trustworthy and boring.

You never have to do as much work as the woman next to you and then a bit more just to prove to anyone else that your job shouldn’t have gone to a woman instead.

You live in a constant state of privilege. And you live so deep in it, every day, that you don’t even recognise it.

What you recognize is people trying to get their basic needs attended to in a manner that is just as automatic and basic as your needs are already met.

You’re not going to change those things by blaming white men for the entirety of bias in the US. That’s just not true and calls everything you say into question. You don’t win the right for everyone to be judged by their character by judging others based on the characteristics they’re born with. It’s not suddenly solid logic to define someone by their skin color or gender or age because they’re white men. Quit.

The changes you want will come from all of us moving forward, not just whatever groups you deem worthy.

@Seek you’re white have you “checked your privilege?” Even if white men have all of these “advantages” why does it seem to mean that their opinion does not count to you?

There are some American feminists who consider that groups like NOW are too preoccupied by white-ish issues, such as the “glass cieling” in companies top echelons or sex on campus. Issues faced by Jewish orthodox or Muslim girl/women (eg arranged/forced marriage) are largely ignored by NOW. So there is some amount of class/race warfare WITHIN feminism, and it’s healthy IMO. You don’t want a mass movement like feminism to get highjacked by the happy few.

@Seek . Ouch…Thanks for lumping all white men together in your rant. I’m happy you are so familiar with living life as a white male. Your latest response was your least informed and ignorant bunch of cap I’ve heard on this site.

You speak of me being so deep in privilege I can’t see it. Sounds to me like you’re so deep in thinking you’re a victim to see you aren’t. No more than any other. Life is hard. Bring up whatever statistics you want, from whatever source, you want. It won’t give you a single clue about walking a single footstep in my shoes. Or in any other persons.

You are usually one of my favorite flutherites to read. You dramatically disappointed me with your insensitive ravings.

The only ‘privilege ’ I have, is that some people think I have privilege . But I promise you, I still pay taxes, stub my toes, get sick, get my heart broken, have feelings, get fucked over constantly for no reason, have to wait in line, have to drive sober, have to wipe my ass, have to argue with the bank manager , get my car searched when pulled over, get followed around Best Buy like a criminal, get treated like shit for no reason by strangers, get fucked at the ER, get fucked by my job, get fucked by circumstances, get my bike stolen, recover my bike in a fight, get bike stolen again, get my home burglarized, get my neighbor murdered, get my dog killed, get my windshield cracked, get laid off, get put on hold for 30 minutes.

THERE IS NO WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE CARD. Not in reality in 2016. I’m more likely to get blamed for a problem that has nothing to do with me, than helped in any way.

Have you ever had 5 black men want to kick your ass because a white cop shot a black man in North Charleston? Yeah, it’s a thrill being a white man. I pay for every misdeed in history. Privileged.

I am aware of my privilege as a white person. Every day. I realise how lucky I am to be able to buy a second hand suit from Goodwill, and look (and be treated like) a respectable businesswoman and be granted all sorts of respect, whereas my black female friend who is a lawyer is treated like she’s trying to steal something if we enter a jewellery store together.

Literally nothing in your rant, @MrGrimm888, does not also apply to everyone else.

But feel free to list all of the prejudicial, societal problems that are unique to straight white men. I’ll wait.

And that’s three men so far that have told me to sit down and be quiet because my fight is over.

In case we’re keeping score.

None of us have said that.

I never asked you to keep quiet @Seek . In case you’re keeping score. I didn’t ask for empathy. Just that you don’t spit in my face.

Hell. My white skin is such a privilege, I can’t sit in the Sun on my own planet without being chased into the shade.

I’m born a villain because I was born white, and male. Nothing to be insulted by there.

DON’T WORRY GUYS RACISM IS OVER BECAUSE WHITE DUDES GET SUNBURN!

What can I do to get you to forgive me because I was born a white male?

Maybe stop whining and check your privilege instead of arguing that it doesn’t exist.

Uugh…. Uninspiring. Can’t check what I don’t have.

And again. It wasn’t whining. I was attempting to splash some reality in your face. I don’t want your pitty. I suspect most don’t. The prism through which you see my life is incorrect.

I’ve made no attempt to silence you. Simply an attempt for you to not be judgemental.

And once AGAIN, a discussion on women has turned into one on men’s feelings.

FUCK.

Every. Goddamn. Time.

I’m out.

WOW…..
So if I started a thread about men, women’s feelings would be irrelevant?

How is your inability to check your privilege at all relevant to whether women are pressured to reject feminine things?

It’s not. You guys have dragged this completely off topic because gods forbid something isn’t about you.

I don’t know it’s relevance. You are the one who brought it up @Seek .

If I said all white women have life easy, and everything is given to them you wouldn’t speak up?
I see this as me defending myself from YOU’RE off topic ravings. Not mine. I didn’t take the thread off the tracks, I was opining about your sweeping ,ignorant generalizations about white men.

The day I talk about how easy it is to be you ,and how you don’t deserve respect because everything is SO great for you, I assume you will.have a response as well.

You may see me as you want. I’m just keeping it real.

Seek likes to bash men, and then when men respond, she pretends that they highjack the conversation… It’ll work as long as you respond to her rants.

The very author of this thread, Mariah, has wisely posted a link called “When men are hurt by gender inequality, that is also a feminist issue.” We’re all in this gender boat together.

I generally hold @Seek in very high regard. This is probably just a sore spot where details and context are missing that would explain some obvious resentment. @Mariah sorry your thread got derailed.

Yeah. I really like @Seek . But she might be starting to hate me…..:(

Meh… She’s agressed me on other topics as well, such as religion. I chalk that up to her youth. Young people like clichés a little bit too much.

Sorry. I left out @Mariah. I really respect both jellies.

I’m 40 and a white male. If you don’t see the privilege you are blind. I had a boss that threw out applications of black males saying that he already hired one and that was enough. And that is in the liberal capital of the United States.

Cops have never really hassled me. I have a black friend that I have witnessed getting slammed into a cop car for doing the same exact thing I was. We were just having beers at a party. I was told to pour mine out and he was arrested. I was way more drunk than he was.

My insurance covers Viagra. Sandra Fluke was slut-shamed by the nation for asking for the pill to be covered by insurance.

So enjoy your privilege. Just don’t forget the sunscreen.

When people say “check your privilege” they are basically saying “shut up” how mature. AND FUCK, every single white man knows where they are privileged, it’s not like we are blind.

Allow me to draw your eyes up to @MrGrimm888‘s comments where he insists he has no privilege.

Everyone has to get up and put their adult panties or underwear on to face their own hardships.

@johnpowell . Your life experience is clearly different than mine.

I’m happy. I don’t wish my upbringing on anyone.

There are undoubtedly places where white skin is a plus. I just don’t know of any. Not personally ,anyway.

I’ve taken part in black lives matter type rallies. Whites are a minority there sometimes. But we all want the same thing.

@Seek . If I have a privilege, I must have missed it. My apologies.

So. Other than respecting women, and valuing them above myself, how else can I be of service?

@MrGrimm888 both @Seek and
@johnpowell had really shitty childhoods. @Mariah mostly overcame some very serious health issues at an age when she should have been enjoying her youth and she still managed to get through school. I don’t know what yours was like because you have not shared it yet. Somewhere I know I had an advantage was in having a decent childhood, great parents and good health. I don’t harbor any resentment as a result, obviously. That’s not exclusively a “white male” thing though, it’s just called hitting the jackpot. I don’t know what it’s like to get over some of that resentment but some are able to do it better than others.

One thing people don’t seem to be able to grasp about privilege is that having privilege doesn’t mean your life was automatically amazing.

I have had hardships due to my health as @ARE_you_kidding_me mentioned. I still have white privilege in that there are lots of things I’ve never had to worry about that I would have had to worry about if I weren’t white. I have never been afraid of a police officer, for example. This doesn’t mean my life is perfect, obviously. I have experienced major hardships. I just haven’t experienced the kinds of hardships that come with being black.

The thing that I have a hard time with is how people have started to stratify and in a way grade opinion based on inherent “privilege.” Pretty dangerous development if you asked me.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I don’t believe in telling people to shut up because of who they are. But surely you must be able to see that when a man says “gee I don’t see any disadvantage to being a woman” that it’s irritating to women because men don’t see those disadvantages precisely because they are not women having a female experience in the world. Pointing this out doesn’t equivocate to “shut up,” it’s just us trying to say that maybe you don’t see those things because you are not a woman. And wishing that men would recognize that there are things they don’t know about being a woman because they are not women.

I guess I should mention I look like an extra on a motorcycle gang movie. That’s where most of my ‘profiling’ problems come from.

But I accept the extra attention as cops doing their job. I look a certain way. They look for certain people.

There are racist cops, and there are normal cops.

@Mariah . Women constantly emotionally manipulate us. They constantly use their sexuality to gain advantage.

It’s really hard to explain that to a man who thought a woman was just being nice to him because she genuinely liked him. Instead of taking advantage of him.

A female can get anything she wants in this world through flirtation. And that is what tarnishes a woman’s actions. And therefore perception. And therefore perception of the gender. Equality is easier gained without lies, and manipulation. Trust cannot be built in such ways.

It’s hard for a man to see a disadvantage for a woman who can bend a man to her will through easy dishonest ways.

@Mariah, it is equally irritating to men when women pontificate that we have special advantages and therefore our opinion needs revision. “Check your privilege” ideed is saying “shut up, you persona non grata” At least in the west “privilege” is largely overblown. Just being born here means that you are privileged in ways that are impossible to imagine regardless of your race, gender or health.

Privilege doesn’t invalidate what someone is saying, recognized or not. If it does then we’re right back where we started with someone being judged solely on things they can’t control.

@MrGrimm888 And it’s really irritating to women when they’re being nice to a man simply because that’s the decent human thing to do, and the man assumes this means she wants to fuck him.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I interpret it more as “hey maybe there’s something you don’t know about this situation because of your experience in the world” but it does seem a lot of people take it as “shut up.” I don’t know how to solve this.

I think instead of saying “check your privilege” point out the specifics of where an individual perception is likely off. I can’t help but see it used to shut down a discussion more often than actually trying to make a point.

@Mariah . We spend our entire life thinking about sex. It makes us crazy, and violent.

You need to pray for no more testosterone. That would help us.

“A female can get anything she wants in this world through flirtation”
Sure, if she’s attractive and charismatic. But then, attractive, charismatic men get lots of things easier, too, through flirtation.

You say you look like an extra in a biker movie. So what? That’s your choice. If you wanted to you could cut your hair, shave your beard, and buy a bottle of Old Spice and run for fucking Mayor if you wanted to. No one would blink.

If thinking about sex makes you violent, that is, again, your problem. That is not the fault of every woman ever. And it does not negate the real societal prejudice women face on a daily basis.

@MrGrimm888 :: Options are available

Thinking about sex never made me violent or crazy, it just meant that we went through hand lotion at twice the normal rate.
@johnpowell shit, beat me to it lol.

I’m just a big guy @Seek . It doesn’t matter how I dress, I’m considered a person of interest.
But I accept the fact that I am going to get some extra law enforcement attention. Instead of crying about it. It is was it is.

And again, you put words in my mouth, i suppose I should have been crystal clear, but you would have changed them to suit your desired / imagined insult anyways.

@MrGrimm888 I do think that on average men have it better than women in westernbsocieties but the gap has closed sustantially. There’s still work to do eg job-wise. In other domains such as education, boys find themselves at a disadvantage and that too needs mending.

Ethnicity/birth priviledges are probably a bigger derterminant of wealth than gender. I’d say that a white woman on average is priviledged compared to a black man. Certainly that’s the case in my country.

“I’m just a big guy…” Big how @MrGrimm88? Are you really fat or something? Do you look threatening? Or are you simply tall? My son is 6’ 4”. He has never experienced any bias from the police. My dad was 6’5”. He never experienced any police bias.
My dad was a gentle person, but he could back a guy down off a fight just by standing up, though. A guy threatened my sister once and my dad did just that. He stood up and said, “We need to take this outside.” The guy runnoft.

The idea that anyone needs to be put on a pedestal or is even asking for it is completely fucked up and those people thinking this is what is being asked needs to experience something like ‘groundhog day’ for the unaware and unselfaware. I can’t tell you how to be aware. You either are or you aren’t. You are either willing to seek it, or you are defensive. I see shitloads of defensiveness in this threat and I threw up a little reading it.

The gender-perceptions I’ve grown up around have been benign and relatively harmless. The worst thing I can say is probably what I shared above—the experience Mariah and I have had in common… feeling like I ought to distance myself from apparently feminine things and activities, lest I be seen as inferior or frivolous because of it. For me, anyway, the brunt of this pressure came from a specific family member, but it seemed to be well supported by the environment around me. Certainly it became a sore spot around ballet, in particular—I started wanting to do ballet at a very early age, and this family member responded with lectures about how it was unnatural and inconsequential, a frivolously subjective waste of time, so I grew up dancing with a split mind about the art. When I hit puberty, I started being told that men were only nice to me because they were attracted to me, which made me somewhat paranoid. I also learned that the friendly way I used to be with everyone was suddenly interpreted as flirting when it was directed at guys, which made me confused and sad. I just thought I was being nice.

So… figuring out how to identify myself as female has been confusing, but in many larger-scale ways, it has not seemed like an impediment in getting what or where I want. I was never told I couldn’t achieve something because I was a girl, and I’ve grown up in a very STEM-heavy environment, so the fields that girls statistically don’t enter have always felt, for me anyway, like next door neighbors whose bells I could always ring. I know that hasn’t been the experience for every female, so I don’t want to be seen as generalizing or making light of someone else’s experience. (In fact, I know women very close to me who have had more “traditional” gender experiences.) Just, from my own experience, I am aware how much farther we are in gender equality than we were even a few decades ago. I am also aware that we still have some work to do in terms of gender-based assumptions—which isn’t a judgment directed at anybody, just a state of cultural system.

I’ve always been proud to say I’m feminist, and I’ve never felt that the title was an issue—I just thought that the movement was called feminism because that’s primarily where it started, focusing on getting women equal rights to vote, to work, etc.—and so I’ve always interpreted the title of this gender-equality movement as a historical legacy. But quite honestly this thread, seeing all the contention that really does surround the name, has left me wondering if it’s worth holding onto that historical legacy if it becomes such a roadblock in discussions. And since it is just a name, and a rose by any other name… why not change it to something more inclusive? The black rights movement was called “civil rights” from the get go—no racial distinctions in the title. The gay rights movement has continued to expand its name as it recognizes more and more sexualities, now the boldly sized LGBTQIA. So why not, as our attention shifts to the disparities between genders, start calling the feminist movement “genderism” instead?

I remember being confused and frightened when I was about 12 and just being nice to people (males) started getting these weird reactions. I didn’t understand it.
I was just a kid.

Hell, I didn’t even have to be nice to get weird reactions. When I was 13 the family was out on vacation. We stopped at a gas station that was also a bar, I guess. I went inside to get a coke from the machine, and some old guy, like older than my dad, approached me, asked if he could buy me a beer. Talk about confused, and a little scared.
I was just a kid.

Well, as we got back on the road I told my folks about it. Dad slammed on the brakes. He was going to turn around! Mom grabbed his arm and said, “Joe! Joe! We have to teach her how to deal with this kind of thing. We won’t always be around.”
He drove in grim silence for the next hour. I thought I’d done something wrong.
I was just a kid.

So many men actually believe that 12 and 13, 14, 15 year old girls are not really “kids.” They’re women and ready for it all. Just asking for it, actually.

@Dutchess_III that last paragraph is horse shit.

No, it’s not. Not in my experience. Not ALL men are like that, but the ones that do really stand out, and they’re really scary .

They are few and far between. But the ones who are perverted do indeed stand out. What you said is still nonsense.

No, it’s not. When was the last time you were approached by a complete stranger and they said, “You are just built for sex! You know you want it Let’s go!”

When was the last time a guy assumed you were “easy” because of the size of your breasts?

When was the last time you were groped by a complete stranger who assumed you’d like it, and got pissed off when you protested?

Quick note on my post for my sake: transgender is grouped with the sexual orientations for sociopolitical reasons but it’s a gender identity…

What?

Eh I was too cryptic in “note” and it probably doesn’t make that big of a difference anyway… Just realized I said LGBTQIA was all sexual orientations, when technically the T isn’t, and so posted the cryptic whispered thing.

@Dutchess_III When was the last time you were groped by a complete stranger who assumed you’d like it, and got pissed off when you protested?

Five years ago. She was 12 or 13 years old.

A friend from school came to town with her family to visit. I invited them to a restaurant and we had a nice dinner. Her kids are great, very happy, relaxed folks. I didn’t talk to the girl much during dinner. I talked mainly to her big brothers and parents.

Once we left and walked towards the subway, she came next to me on the sidewalk and started chatting. She was very witty. At some point she started dancing all around me. And I was slowly falling under her spell, laughing at her jokes and thinking what a wonderful kid she was… And then, out of the blue, she groped my behind and skeezed it firmly with her little hand, in a sort of invasive but attentionate way, like a doctor would.

For a second i wondered if we had passed into another dimension. Looked around me. The houses the streets the cars were still there, unfazed. The parents were 10 step behind, they had not noticed anything apparently.

I told her that these sort of things were forbidden between an adult and a child, that it could land both of us in jail. I wanted to scare her badly—least she does the same thing with other grown-ups. “But WHY?” she asked. “That’s how it is” i said, “don’t do it again”.

She looked at me as one looks at a traitor… Then her parents caught up with us and it was all over.

@Dutchess_III here we go again, there are not hordes of men lusting after tweens. Your perception is skewed.

According to my porn shop manager friend, the most popular porn stars these days all look like they’re about 14.

It upsets her immensely.

^^ Tell her to calm down.

I don’t know much about pornstars hem hem… but a new jelly who seems in the known asked recently: who is the hottest: Kiara Mia, Kelly Divine, Jessica Bangkok, Ava Rose or Angelina Castro?

Does any of them look like a teen? No.

The youngest is Rose, 29. Divine is 32, Castro 34, Bangkok 35, Mia 39.

Most guys find late twenties or early thirties most attractive when it really comes down to it.

Normal guys do. Guys who are looking for someone to relate to as well as love.

..and most guys are perfectly normal. I’d peg the perv/abnormal pop at 2–7% not an insignificant number but not ”so many” Wording it that way makes it sound like you are saying most guys are like that which is not true.

Wording what which way? Are you referring to @Seek‘s comment about her friend who owns the porn shop?

I quoted your comment. As far as the porn goes..a fair amount of it is pretty fucked up anyway and a lot of it makes me uncomfortable. It’s not at all close to reality. Most of us don’t actually look at that much but the people who do consume vast amounts of it.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’ve scrolled up to find where you quoted my comment. I’ve looked through 4 or 5 of your recent posts. I really don’ t know where it is. Since you do, would you be so kind as to link it, or requote it?

@olivier5 It must have been pretty scary to have been groped by someone who was so much bigger and stronger than you.

“So many men actually believe that 12 and 13, 14, 15 year old girls are not really “kids.” They’re women and ready for it all. Just asking for it, actually.”

I think @oliver5 had an entirely different kind of fear and that is one of being accused of messing around with a young girl even if he was not the aggressor. It’s completely understandable that women will have a lingering fear considering nearly half the population can over power them….and they are probably horny. Completely different fear.

OK, thanks.
I was a 12, 13, 14, 15 year old girl. I was hit on at those ages by several men, old enough to be my father.
When I was 14, 15, I was getting into boys. Boys my own age. Not into grown ass adult men. But those came skulking around, without fail. My own fucking neighbor, a man I trusted, a friend of my dads, hit on me when he was drunk. I was 14. I had babysat for them that night.

There may not be a lot of them, but the ones that are out there they sure make themselves known to their prey, and it’s scary and confusing as hell to a kid.

@olivier5 told us that story to explain that he could relate to the sexual aggression women and girls face.

@Dutchess_III There are plenty of fucked up people out there but the vast majority are not that way. While an underlying apprehension is understandable and warranted for the sake of caution extending that to the rest of us certainly is not going to help men and women get along any better.

I know that @ARE_you_kidding_me. But I would bet that every woman here has come in contract with one of “them.” I’d bet not many men here would even recognize one of “them” if they met them.
It makes women wary of all men….until we get to know them. Until we get to know them. I would trust 97% of the men here on Fluther (this is including those who are now gone.)

Completely understandable. Those 2–7% are not easy to identify and basically can’t be reformed. Caution is the prudent thing. It’s hard for women to straddle that fine line between trust and caution and still be polite to strange guys. I suppose where I get cross is when women cast all or most men that way. Some women straight up act like we are evil and guys are justified in taking offense to that.

I think you meant “contact” and not “contract”

Similarly, let’s get worried of all black people, since a small percentage commits crimes, and let’s get worried about all Muslims too. And of course let’s get worried that all women could be gold diggers… Shouldn’t we get worried that Jew will steal our money too?

When you start to fear half of mankind, you’re on your way to becoming a hater.

On teens proped as sexual objects, the fashion industry and women magazines have a lot to answer for. Their models are almost always teens.

@Dutchess_III I actually feared for her rather than for me. I feared that her parents could have seen her do it. That would have been the end of my friendhsip with the mother, and some pretty bad rap for their daughter, whose only crime was to love boys a little too much, apparently. I also feared for me, to be seen as a pedophile. I also feared for her if she would ever do it to a bad man.

I just told you the story to show that it happens to men too.

There are other cases.

Once in a supermarket a woman put her hand on my croatch.

A few days ago, i was having a cigarette by the river banks. I was playing some cell phone game, puffing, when I realized I was being watched. A woman was 5 meters away from me, standing there looking at me. On her face was an air of total despair. I looked around to see if she was with anyone. She wasn’t. I tried to stand her gaze, with a question in my eyes: “what the heck?” She was 40-something, not well dressed, saggy stuff, probably a bit strong. The face was banal, with no make up. A normal looking women. Not a whore for sure.

She kept staring at me with these desperate eyes. And then she shook het head a little, with that movement of the chin and raised eyesbrows that means: “Do you want?”

I felt totally awkward. I thought she’s gona throw herself in the river next. I should have talked to her but I chickened out. I stood and left. This time i was afraid of her sorrow, the tragic misery of her life. Heart wrenching and scary.

@oliver5 “When you start to fear half of mankind, you’re on your way to becoming a hater” na, at that point you have already arrived.

A 12 year old behaving in that way, especially with an adult, is a symptom of a more serious underlying issue. I can’t believe you don’t realize that, @olivier5.

There is a difference between “fear” and “caution” you two. @olivier5 is telling us all these stories to pretend he can relate. He doesn’t have a clue. Not a single clue.

I cannot relate. Never said I could. All i am saying is: It happens to men too. Probably not as frequently of course, but vice versa DOES happen.

A 12 year old behaving in that way, especially with an adult, is a symptom of a more serious underlying issue

Like what?

Like sexual abuse by adults in her back ground. Duh. I believe it was Mariah who named it: “Grooming.”

I have a feeling there is more to that story than you’re telling. She looked at you like a “traitor”? Seriously?

You say “it” happens to men. You’re overlooking THE biggest factor which is that of the person grabbing you having the ability to totally over power you.

Why do you think of abuse, immediately? I know these guys, they are cool and nice, well behaved. I seriously doubt that this girl—cheerful, funny, witty and bubbly as she is—has been abused by anyone.

What you seem to ignore is that children are sexual animals too. They have desires, they are attracted by certain types, they fall in love, etc. It’s not unatural, on the contrary it’s perfectly normal. They don’t understand sex, but they are not asexual.

I assume the reason she gave me that ‘traitor’ look is that, in my experience, many kids classify adults in two sets: those who remember what it is to be a kid, and those who don’t, and you can trust the former type with some of your secrets because they will understand you, but the latter type keeps judging you all the time so don’t tell them too much… My sense is that she (rightly) classified me in the first category. I’m basically a kid who’s unaware he is now 52 years old; I had discussed specific video games with her brothers during that dinner for instance; and I was talking to her on that sidewalk like I talk to any kid: as if we were equal. That’s why she was taken aback when I gave her bad rap, me think. She liked me, she trusted me and she expressed that in a way she thought was ‘positive’ or at least did not do any wrong (in her mind), and she expected some other reaction from me than a threat to throw her in jail.

I’ve been thinking of your story and something occurred to me. You viewed her behavior as sexually provoking. What if it wasn’t? What if she was just being a kid and grabbed you for no particular reason? Just on an impulse? Then you took it to the sexual realm…and that’s when she looked at you like a traitor.

Yeah. 12, 13 was when I began to realize that men / boys didn’t view me as a kid any more, but as something sexual (though I didn’t realize what it was at the time. I didn’t know what had changed, I just that they were acting weird,) and they acted on it. It was confusing and scary. And when they were men old enough to be my father that’s exactly how I felt….betrayed. I trusted adults. I especially trusted men, because I trusted my father.

Yeah. She trusted you alright. She’s learning better.

Of course it was sexual. AND of course it was an impulse. These are not mutually exclusive.

I had to tell her what I told her. What if next time she does it to someone who happen to be a pedophile? Can you imagine how bad the situation could become? She had to know that this sort of behavior put HER in grave danger. I had only a few seconds to tell it, and I could NOT tell her that there are rapist and pedophiles out there who would eat her alive, so I told her in the clearest and most effective manner I could that this was illegal and dangerous. The look she gave me broke my heart, but I know I did the right thing to protect her. I HAD to scare her badly, so my conscience is clear. I just said a ‘white lie’, that she can go to jail for it. Of course she can’t, but until she grows up and get wiser, she’s better off thinking that she could.

Hearing that story I have to admit the first thing that crossed my mind was abuse as well. Impossible to know from those details though. 12 & 13 was sure the age when I really started noticing women and seemingly when women started noticing guys. Middile school is akward for a reason.

I did consider it a possibility later, thinking through it all, specifically i thought of the father, whom i know reasonnably well but not as well as the mother. She and I are friends from what you call college, she met him years later. I would fall on my sword for her but him? He’s the perfect modern man, as far as I can see. Very decent, respectuous of his wife, loving his kids, the slightly boring homeley type, the kind of guy whom I can least suspect of that. Then i considered the girl, how intensely SOLAR and joyous and intelligent she was, how she was the youngest sibling and the only girl, how slightly spoiled and ‘entitled’ she behaved. Like i imagine a true princess would. How carefree also. An entitled mischievious daredevilish spoiled beautiful princess.

She’s just precocious, i concluded. She was not raised in the holy fear of god <ironical>, the French mainstream culture being secular verging on atheism nowadays and my friend never displayed any religious sentiment… School teaches them that sex is natural and healthy. They watch Game of Thrones. Miley Cirus twerks… What do you expect? Kids have a brain too, and it’s bathing in hormones too, like ours. Perhaps a little less than adults’, although I don’t think I have left in me half the lust of a healthy teen of any gender.

She’s not a victim of sex abuse, perhaps a future predator… Something tells me most of her future victims won’t mind too much. Her mother is tall and gorgious.

That’ll be real gender equality, when the girls chase us.

“That’ll be real gender equality, when the girls chase us.” wow…. you just pulled up your skirt and now your misogyny is showing… oooops.

Could you explain ^^?

Edit: Aren’t feminists supposed to raise dairing young women, to tell them there’s nothing tbey can’t do? Why oh why should women remain passive in flirts and dating and touching hands and stuff? Why should a healthy woman refrain from “chasing men”, pray tell? Where is the stigma here?

Men. I recommend you bow out. There’s no win here. You’ve stated your cases.

@Dutchess_III Eh, yes there is a difference between fear and caution but caution usually stems from fear. Rational fears or not the two are entangled. Sometimes extra caution is justified, others not so much.

@MrGrimm888 oh come on Mister! Don’t be such a defeatist. For our children’s sake, we need to push back on the insanity of sexism, in both genders.

Men are just like any other woman. We’re not inferior, or doomed to fail in our relation to women.

Double Standards Girl has no time to explain the world to people who aren’t aware. TWO problems with your statement. “When” and “Chase”.

@olivier5 .I’m not a defeatist, but I recognize the difference between debate and arguing.

It doesn’t matter what we (men) say.They’ll just take our words and form them into whatever shape they want. Then they become offended, and turn to insults.

I love debate. But there are several jellies who will always take everything personally, and interpret everything wrongly, no matter how many ways it’s said. Then they won’t even dare see any side but their own.

Every response is called an attempt to silence them. Every opportunity they have to be accountable is instead taken as bashing.

I’m tired of all the bitter, seething hatred. And snide personal comments, that are boring contentless attacks.

You can talk until the cows come home. They will still view you the same. Good luck though.

@cazzie Two problems in your statement: 1) lack of a sense of humour; 2) lack of courage to argue you (lack of) case.

Who initiates courtship, who proposes, is an important gender issue. I have never hit on any woman. Faithful to the feminist readings of my youth and shy too, i always opted to wait for them to hit on me. At the end of my active sexual life, i can safely conclude it was a mistake.

@MrGrimm888 Don’t hate the haters. They hate because they’ve been told to be afraid, very afraid, or perhaps because nobody loves them. I pitty them, because they don’t know what they do. The lack of logic in these anti-man ratings is a tell tale of their emotional confusion.

^Have fun.

Thanks, and sorry if those exchanges depress you. The feeling is familiar.

^Peace n love

I love you, man. Don’t forget there are plenty of nice women out there, who love big men not afraid of being men, ‘kay?

Time for a few old-style romantic songs, to remind ourselves that once upon a time, men and women used to love each other… Pull out the tissues. ;-)

Diana Krall – Why Should I Care

The Temptations – My Girl

Daniela Andrade – La Vie En Rose (English lyrics)

Tom Waits – I Hope I Don’t Fall In Love With You

I’ll get back to this. Your arguments are groundless. 1) I have a great sense of humour. And 2) I also have a life and limited time to sit in front of a computer. When I get some time I’ll be doing some ting other than discussing this topic with people who are defensive and won’t listen.

Some people are so busy that they have just enough time to insult others, but no time at all to explain why they insulted them.

“The reason women are turning you down for casual sex seems to be that, for one thing, a lot of you are calling them sluts afterward.

“Also, a lot of you aren’t bothering to try to be good in bed.”

~ Terri Conley, Professor of Psychology and Women’s Studies, University of Michigan.

(You keep saying you’re a “big” man @olivier5. What does that mean? Are you fat? Are you proud of it? Do you think that’s attractive?)

^I believe he was referring to me Dutchess.

OK. So why do you describe yourself as a “big man,” @MrGrimm888? Describing a woman as a “big woman,” is not a compliment.

It was relevant in a couple other threads about police violence, and perception.

I’m 6 foot 5, about 300 lbs.That usually fits the description of a big man.

My height is genetic. My build took decades of working out. I can’t be proud of that?

No .Its not a compliment to females in our culture.

@Dutchess_III Describing a woman as a “big woman,” is not a compliment.

Yes, that’s one of these stereotypes modern society forces down on women, and men: thou shall be thin. I am surprised you don’t know better than to try and shame Grimm or me for our belt size.

According to him, he’s an uber fit, muscular guy. Like a line backer.

However, I know one guy, personally, who maybe is 6 foot and pushing 400 pounds. Gets NO exercise, can hardly even get up off the couch. He proudly calls himself a “big guy,” and says he likes it. Has no interest in losing the weight.

My ex, who is naturally slender and tall, at one point started trying to put on all kinds of weight because he wanted to be big, like a pro foot ball player. I tried to tell him that foot ball players work out hours and hours every day, and he did nothing! But he insisted. Before long he’d put on 100 pounds of nothing but fat. And he was proud.

I just find it interesting that that a guy would be proud of being a “big guy,” when he’s just fat, and would consider it a compliment to be referred to as such, yet in our society being a “big woman” is not a compliment.

But you and and @MrGrimm888 don’t fall into that catagory.

^I don’t fall into that category because I’m not ‘just fat.’

What the blazes are you talking about?

Why isn’t this moderated?

I know. You said you weren’t.

For the record. I like ‘thick women. ’

They may not like that description, but I really like them.

A ‘thick’ girl is at or above her ideal weight per height.

That may not be a complement, but it is to me.

Well, how they view the term is more important than how you view it. Before you ever use it, make sure she agrees that it’s a compliment.

^indeed Dutchess. Yes ma’am, I intend to not call them thick.

But it is a complement.

Where I come from saying someone is ‘thick’ means they are dumb. And this thread has really gone off the rails.

Not sure gow fat the Dutchess is but she’s clearly very thick.

I’m not going to flag that, because I think people should be aware of how you talk about people.

She keeps misunderstanding people all the time, and now she’s asking them how fat they are… If that ain’t thick i don’t know what is. :eyes rolling:

If you don’t like us, go somewhere else and play. You’ve already called women on this site hysterical howlers.

Uugh. Please let us not make this a gender thing. My god….

He did. Not you, MrGrimm.

Whomever

Nobody had better be body shaming anyone here. I think you’ll find there is more support and sharing here, in general, in regards to that subject than almost any other place. We’re Jellies and we use our hive mind, but we have corporal bodies. All of us. We do the impossible here, and that makes us mighty.

^^ Thanks!! And for the record, I’m not fat.