Racism is a hot topic in this election, but what about ageism?

It has been brought up. “http://www.fluther.com/disc/24784/how-long-will-it-be-before-mccain-is-using-a-walker/” I’m not sure how to link?

With the nomination of Governor Palin age does matter in this election. Just think if John McCain kicks the bucket and goes to the big Maverick in the sky. Shooting Wolf will hold the highest office in the world and to some that is a little scary. She won’t be able to wink, wave and smile her way through all the problems that she will be facing.

I am not John McCain and he does not support this message.

GAMBIT: I would agree that if Palin had to take over as President she would be severely under qualified to do so. But what about the fact that McCain’s mother is living well in her 90s? I know McCain’s health hasn’t always been perfect, but it’s kind of sad that everyone’s already determined his fate.

@TheNakHip, you make a very good point. I hope for our sake if he is elected that he inherited his grandmother’s genes.

I like Sarah Palin, she does a great job on Saturday Night Live.

I think Sarah Palin’s adorable, haha! She seems like a really sweet person, but I think she should just stay a really sweet person.

Ageism is an issue this election.

If I hear the phrase “one heartbeat away from the Presidency….” one more time….ugh.

I don’t find her the least bit sincere or real. At all. That is not the vibe I am getting at all.

Here is sincere.

http://leishacamden.blogspot.com/2008/10/not-that-it-matters.html

Snoopy: I completely agree. What I’m saying is, the attitude towards McCain is that he’s going to die while in office. It’s very matter-of-fact. The attitude towards Obama is more defensive… like, “Hey, you better not bring race into this thing!”

I’m having a hard time explaining, but does that make sense?

Bri_L: Really? I think she’s very natural, which is the problem for me. She can’t “play politician” very well at all and oddly enough that makes me think even less of her as a candidate. Despite what we want to think, even Obama plays the part. When it comes to a more worldly view, who’s better suited to represent an entire country?

It’s a fact of life. Old people die. That’s not like racial issues – which are created in the minds of people. Racism is discrimination of the prejudicial sort – where ageism refers to beliefs and attitudes about age [young or old]; age discrimination is about actions.

I guess I don’t see it that way. I don’t see her as looking natural. The way she acts is her version of playing politician. That is what she sees is appealing to the people.

Obama is being himself. An educated articulate politician.

As far as a more worldly view, someone who can get past just looking good and a hand shake.

The last time we had a President this old, his astrology-following wife had to play a significant role in running things. Some have speculated that this was due to early signs of Alzheimer’s Disease (this is controversial). Not the kind of scenario any of us really want to see happen again.

In fact, in addition to being 72, John McCain has already been diagnosed with melanoma, the most aggressive form of skin cancer. While he and his doctor’s report that he is currently cancer free, melanoma often recurs, and metastasizes (spreads) rapidly and easily to vital organs. So, he is by no means the picture of health.

I know for a fact that McCain is going to keel over – his health is not as stellar as his mother’s. I’m looking at facts – first rule is this – don’t elect a sickly leader. That’s just dumb.

Meenhard Herlyn, a researcher at the Wistar Institute at the University of Pennsylvania and member of the Melanoma Research Foundation’s scientific advisory committee, says that melanoma “continues to be a bad cancer—diagnosed in 60,000 new cases each year.” The biggest factor in successful treatment is early diagnosis, before the cancer penetrates the deeper part of the skin where it could hit a lymph or blood vessel. The cancer mass McCain had removed in 2000 was 2 centimeters in diameter and 2.2 millimeters deep. “That’s relatively thick,” says Herlyn. In estimating risk, he says, any primary tumor in the skin thicker than 1 millimeter is considered at an increased risk for “having dissociated,” or moved to other parts of the body. McCain’s doctors reported that his cancer hadn’t penetrated his lymph system. Though McCain is at greater risk for recurrence because of his age, gender, and multiple bouts with melanoma, he has been cancer free since 2002. There currently is no cure for melanoma once it spreads.

Age debate. The issue of McCain’s age has been a touchy one—some who have raised it have been tagged as ageist. Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean has pledged not to make an issue of it (insiders say they don’t have to—it’s already an issue), and Black, the campaign aide, has asserted that 70 just isn’t what it used to be. So, is 70 the new 50? Karlene Ball says there’s some truth to what Black says. “I’ve been studying cognitive aging for 30 years, and it is definitely the case that the 70-year-olds in our research now are cognitively younger than those we studied 20 years ago,” says Ball, who directs the University of Alabama-Birmingham’s Roybal Center for Research on Applied Gerontology. Improved healthcare and knowledge about the benefits of nutrition and physical activity have contributed to that trend, she says. But Bell adds this caution: There is a downward slope in memory as a function of age, though there are enormous individual differences. McCain likes to point to his 96-year-old mother as proof of his with-it genes. That may be stretching things a bit, says Ball. “Saying that your parents are free of dementia doesn’t mean you won’t get it,” she adds, “but, still, it’s good that they are because you don’t have that risk factor.” (McCain’s father died of heart failure at 70.) — USNews

All of our past presidents who entered office as sickly individuals worked very hard to hide that fact. They had to hide it – not because of ageism – but because they wanted to be elected and not turned down.

It always makes perfect sense to turn down a sick soldier – as well as a sick leader of the COUNTRY.

Obama has been able to skip through the racial epitaphs because his appointment and message doesn’t come under a Jessie Jackson. Al Sharpton type of redderick. I think it was Chris Rock who stated “I never met a black man like Obama. Even the comedians want touch him. I wonder what Richard Pryor would have said something like, Damn, white people love Obama they think that negro can walk on water no joke jack Obama the real McCoy yes sir. He done the impossible he made a negro wanna go out and vote.

Seriously if Obama wasn’t smooth calm and collective with an Ivy School Law degree people would feel more comfortable rejecting him in public but whether Obama wins or not America has spoken. “We don’t care what skin color you are you have a chance to hold the highest office in the country and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am not Obama and he does not support this message.

Yes… I like Obama as well, but with age comes experience and I’m wary about turning the country over (no matter how much I like and agree with Obama) to someone who has not been around long and does not know the environment he is entering .. the fact of the matter is that the president doesn’t do as much as he’s made out do do .. he is directed by the people around him .. knowing how to handle that is what I feel is the most important attribute for a president.

I believe being as untainted as possible by the system holds more merit than “having been a part of the system”. If he is going to change Washington, I want to see someone who is fresh.

Just do some more introspection to find out why you are truly wary.

@ theNakedhippie – but we have to judge the quality of that experience. I am not to happy with it. with the twists and turns it has taken. with the temperment of the man through which it flows. with the inaccurate and selective memory he has of his “experience”

He may have experience. but not the good kind at this point. In my opinion.

I agree with Squirble. At this point we have and need an untainted intelligent man who is smart enough to draw from smart people around him and not to proud to do so.

@NakedHippie. John F Kennedy was one of our youngest presidents, as was Bill Clinton. Neither man had trouble with the natures of the job. Mostly, as powerful young men, they liked to screw around…

Yes, but how much do you really think he will be able to change? Let’s not be fooled… the president doesn’t call all the shots in our government.

Before this turns into a McCain vs Obama debate – can we stick to the original query?

Racism is a hot topic in this election, but what about ageism?

@theNakedHippie-”
Yes, but how much do you really think he will be able to change? Let’s not be fooled… the president doesn’t call all the shots in our government.” then neither should win.

Honestly, I am more racist against McCaine. He is so pasty white he is almost transperant

Bahaha

Bri_L: hahaha, that he is!

Squirbel is completely correct in the difference between racism and ageism. There is no factual basis for a claim that a person’s skin color effects their ability to lead a country for four years. There is a factual basis that a person’s age could effect their ability to lead a country for four years. A 70 year old is more like to have a stroke (or other medical problem) than a 40 year old. It doesn’t mean that the 40 year old won’t have a stroke (or other medical problem), but it isn’t as likely. There are medical statistics to back up that statement. As for Gambit’s post “Obama has been able to skip through the racial epitaphs”, Obama’s family history is different than the majority of African-Americans in this country. Many African-Americans in this country can trace their lineage back to slavery. Obama’s lineage does not go back to slavery (please correct me if I’m wrong). Not that this makes any difference to me. I only mention it because of Gambit’s comment.

Good point, Marissa.

Seriously.

If I had my way – I would not call Obama “black”, or “African-American”. I am brown – I have some black people in my history – but I am in no way, shape, or form a part of the African-American culture.

I am Shannamarie. To you, I am squirbel. My skin is brown, I am Puerto Rican. But people see me on the street and say or think – oh, another black person.

I’ve never been raised in that culture. I think people should be identified by their culture. The very fact that Obama’s history is out there and people still insist on calling him “black” or “African-American” is racially charged in and of itself.

But only people of mixed culture and race will ever be able to empathize with this feeling I feel. Remember, empathy and sympathy are different.

Too much is made of McCain’s geezerisms. For example referring to Obama last night as “this one”. That kind of thing happens to all of us after 50. The ability to make good decisions is not reflected in that any more than the younger “you know”. So McCain’s age should not be a factor any more than any other stereotype. I won’t support him based on his record and the poor leadership and character he has shown in this campaign.

marissa, it has nothing to do with Obama’s skin color or what his lineage is. Obama IS seen as a black man. It is becuase of his character that people don’t feel comfortable saying racial slurs. America has spoken WE ARE TIRED OF RACISM.

I thought the “This one” comment was as disrespectful as a lot of his comments in the past and had very little to do with his age.

First, I want to make clear I don’t care what anyone’s skin color is. I really hate that there is even the distinction. I would gladly only look at Obama as the Democratic Candidate for President, but at this point, in our culture, that is not a reality (this very question makes that evident). I do think that people should respect a person’s cultural history (I agree with you squirbel). In my family there is an incredible mix of different cultures, religions and yes ‘skin color’. But we don’t refer to each other as ‘the German’, ‘the African-American’, ‘the Muslim’, ‘the Christian’, we refer to each other by name or by relation (my brother, my nephew, my cousin, etc). As for why even the comedians are leaving him alone, etc. The point that I was trying to make is that those that would poke fun at Obama or make ‘racial slurs’ they don’t have ammo. (Believe me I am really hoping that it is also because “WE ARE TIRED OF RACISM”).

@marissa, if we are right than America has just woke up and is no longer a child. Even if Obama doesn’t win the election, America as a whole has grown and maybe just maybe we can truthly say “All Men are Created Equal”

@gambit, that would be the absolute best thing that could come out of this election. Until this country truly realizes that, we will never be as great a Nation as we could be.

@marissa, nicely said.

I could not disagree more with you there… America is definitely still a child. We may think we’re not, but…

@TheNakedHipp, of course it would depend on your view of America. It depends if you want to hold America back or if you want it to go forward. You can harbor racist views, you can stop our children from getting a good education and you can look backwards and have a negative view on life and not do one thing to make America better. That is up to you.

@ GAMBIT – I don’t get where your coming from with that? what is your point?

a 40 year old man becomes a new father. by the time his son is 8 years old, the father finds himself pretty active—even running around the yard a couple times with his little man, but hey, dad’s still got it.

but a 64 year old man becomes a new father and by the time his son is 8, he just cant run around like he used to or he’ll have a heart attack.

Gambit: I’m harboring racist views? Well you’ll definitely be doing my non-white fiancee a huge favor by letting him in on that little secret.

America has grown from being a country of slave owners to a nation that can appoint an African American as President to me that is a large amount of growth.

@TheNaked, I said it was up to you. I don’t know one thing about you and I am not a psychic and it is none of my business who you intend to marry it has nothing to do with this topic but thanks for sharing anyway.

@ gambit – I am still waiting for you to explain, if it wasn’t an attack on TNH, what do you mean by saying this,

“of course it would depend on your view of America. It depends if you want to hold America back or if you want it to go forward. You can harbor racist views, you can stop our children from getting a good education and you can look backwards and have a negative view on life and not do one thing to make America better. That is up to you.”

Bri_L: Exactly.

Br L she said that she did not feel that America has grown I was stating that it depends on her outlook. Do you understand or do I have to spell it out for you again. Br L

GAMBIT: No need to get uppity! Simmer!

@TheNaked, yes you are right. I am simmering. Thanks

[Fluther moderator] Settle down people. This has been a stimulating and useful discussion. Let’s all try to stay (as close to) on topic as possible. Thanks.

@ gambit – Yes, you made reference to her views and then said, with regard to her current view “It depends if you want to hold America back or if you want it to go forward. You can harbor racist views, you can stop our children from getting a good education and you can look backwards and have a negative view on life and not do one thing to make America better.” So you were attacking her.

I needed to clarify wether you were making a general statement, asking for her to clarify what was actually a general statement or attacking her.

No need for sarcasm. It is not becoming.

I wasn’t trying to start a fight. I just don’t like getting jumped on.

This brings forth a few things I’d like to say (as always).

First off, the age thing I think is really more fodder for humor than anything. Age in and of itself can be diffused by a skilled orator as Ronald Reagan did. Remember that when Reagan ran for a 2nd term, he was one year older than McCain is now, and when the moderator asked him about age being a factor (because there is indeed a fair part in this question…most people retire at 65 and earlier if they can, if you’re 72 or 73, that’s a little abnormal to be seeking the most stressful job in the world), he diffused the entire issue by saying he wouldn’t hold his opponent’s youth and lack of experience against him.

Personally, age is just a number, some people look incredibly old when they’re in their 50s, whereas some 90 year olds could outrun people 1/3 their age. And when McCain actually looks old, the way that comes off on TV is bound to produce some discussion. For one thing, McCain is very stiff in his upper body, and to be completely fair, that is because of his POW injuries…but to the casual viewer, since similar body language is a hallmark of the aged, it’s bound to come off to some that McCain is showing his age. And of course there is the pasty face (and it certainly doesn’t help his case when he stands next to Obama, or when he chooses to stand in front of a lime green screen), which just comes off as old on TV. And his ideas are the ideas of the past, let’s not forget about that…he is trying to tie himself to Ronald Reagan, and people are starting to think that after 30 years of Reaganomics, maybe we should be looking forward and not back. As one person put it, and I’d creidt them if I remembered where I read this, McCain comes off like the kind of guy who if God forbid he decided to rap, he’d start off with “well my name is John, and I’m here to say…” And he comes around at a time when the world has changed SO much over the last couple generations in every way possible that he seems “outdated”. He can’t help it, so I guess that leads to the point of whether it’s ageism. And I guess what I’m saying is that I kind of think the snarky observations are really just an outcropping of the way people are towards everyone…we’re a very judgemental society and we MUST FIND FAULT in the inconsequential, because unfortunately that keeps our mind off the consequential. So, there is some ageism, but I don’t think people believe that old people are “useless” or “not as good” in some way, I just think people find humor in the cognitive dissonance between the idea of how a President should come off, when juxtaposed with the stereotypical mental image of the doddering old man. In short (if that is indeed possible), the ageism in this case is really a distraction, it’s not likely to affect any votes.

Where the votes are going to be affected are in the arguments regarding whether or not McCain will die in office. I have to disagree with the assertion that it’s that number, and that number alone that leads people to have already written his obituary. Personally, I think there’s ALWAYS a risk that the President, no matter how young or old or seemingly healthy, might not serve out his entire term…when you consider that Grover Cleveland was both our 22nd and 24th President, if W is the 43rd President and we’re counting one guy twice, only 42 people have ever held this position. Eight of them died in office. That means that ANYONE who becomes President has a 20% chance of dying in office, period!

Consider also that we haven’t had a President die in office in 44 years. That’s about 20% of the time the US has been a nation. We’re due. So, advanced age is one thing that might make a person die in office…assassination is another…one has to consider the violent history of this country and it’s racially violent past, and realize that Obama’s race is also a factor which makes it possible that HE could die in office. These are horrible, but practical and realistic thougths. And I think it’s fair to consider them on both sides, which is why there was no big outrage when Gwen Ifill asked Joe Biden and Sarah Palin what they would do if their #1 died in office…it’s a legitimate question. And that also makes it a legitimat concern as to the qualifications of #2. So McCain’s age DOES matter, because the average life expectancy of a man is 75, McCain is 72. Now yes, once you make it to 72, your life expectancy is more like 11 more years than 3, but on average, men live to be 3 years older than McCain is now, and the term of a President is 4 years. It’s a legitimate concern.

To further the concern is that John McCain has had cancer (melanoma) four times. Each time a person has cancer, it does decrease his life expectancy, that’s just a fact. And if his life expectancy is 11 years from this point, he doesn’t have a lot of wiggle room. Now most 72 year olds also don’t have the vigor to run a Presidential campaign, so you can say the fact that he can hack this is evidence that he will be fine. He might be, he might not be. Bottom line though is, you have to say that everyone taking the job starts out w/ a 20% chance of dying in office, what factors increase or decrease the chance that he’ll be that one in 5 (and we’ve had 8 in a row that didn’t die in office, assuming W makes it another 3 months)...age is a factor, when combined with previous health, the vigors of the job and the law of averages.

Now, one must also consider that McCain has not been forthright with his medical records either. Consider that he released a selected number of pages from his records to a select group of reporters for a few hours one day and didn’t allow any recording devides to be used…doesn’t prove he’s hiding something, but it’s far from comforting. One does need to watch this video to really get a grasp on why this is SO important:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvesa49zSIM

And if McCain had picked a VP candidate whom it seems no one but the most partisan right wing members of the Republican party actually believes is experienced enough to be the President (and I suspect many of them don’t really believe that but have dilluted themselves to think that McCain probably won’t die in office and even if he does, it won’t happen so quickly that she won’t have had time as the VP to learn what she needs to know to hit the ground running).

I do think there are reasons why McCain’s age is important. However, I am at a loss as to a substantive reason why the color of someone’s skin would be important, with the exception that I gave you…I think statistically speaking, given the history of our nation, a black President is more likely to be assasinated than a white one. So, this is why again, I think it was a good thing that Ifill asked that question.

As for the rest of this back and forth, I’m staying out of it. I see both sides…America has grown…Obama would not have been possible 20 years ago…maybe not even 8. Certainly not 40. That’s growth. But we are still a young nation (232 years by European standards is laughable), and we are still not that far removed from our racist roots (many alive today were alive when it was acceptable for someone with white skin to treat someone with non white skin as less than human as just a matter of “the way things are”).

In summary, age can be used as a derisive distraction for the purposes of humor, but to deny the substantiveness of the facts is really convoluting the issue. If we make something taboo and don’t even discuss it, we don’t actually deal with the problem…there are substantive and non substantive parts of any argument…even the race one as I’ve shown. In the same way it’s OK to say you don’t want Obama to be President because you fear he’ll be assassinated, it’s OK to say you don’t want McCain to be President as you fear he’ll die due to his advanced age and other contributing factors, that’s legitimate. If you say I don’t want a N——R/OLD FART running the country, then you’re being racist/ageist.

Wall of daletext crits you for 100,000. You die. -world of warcraft combat log

Well stated.

@Br L It is not becoming for you to answer for an adult who is capable of asking and answering questions herself but since you are treating her like a child I will answer yes I was talking in general to her not you and no I don’t attack anyone (on purpose) she said she totally disagreed that are country hasn’t grown and I will repeat it depends on how you look at things. In the future I would hope that you will give individuals the choice to work out their own differences and not try to jump in and control the discussions. I had no intention of leaving the discussion on a sour note.

I was not answering for her until you accused me of doing so. I asked you what you meant in my first question if you read that.

“I don’t get where your coming from with that? what is your point?” I assumed your you was you in general and didn’t follow what you meant. Then you started insulting me.

You made your intentions clear after that, on purpose.

I will control any discussion with anyone I like when they attack me. Your out of line.

Bri L the nice thing about arguments it takes someone to apologize. Therefore I apologize.

And I do to. Behind us? I need to be more aware of textual possibilities on line. I am sorry.

Thank you Bri L it is definitely behind us. I appreciate it.

@TheNakedHippie, sorry I got out of line.

Actually, I am a little fed up with thenakedhippie now that you mention it.

;-)

:-)

**smacks Bri_L**
**smacks GAMBIT**

Hai gais! lez b nice!

o wait, you already kissed and made up.

Bri and Gambit, sitting in a tree…

Lurve to squirble

teehee

should note that he gave the lurve before I edited in the “kissing in the tree” part :D

I think McCain pushed the envelope by selecting Palin as the Vice-Presidential nominee. There is no way she is qualified to be President!

Of course, we always hope that someone elected President will serve out his/her term, but when people in their seventies run, it is especially important that they select a well qualified Vice-Presidential nominee.

Though I know many people who are very active into their eighties and nineties, one has to be aware that more health issues arise as we age. I’m in my late fifties, and I worry about what would happen to my family, business, and associates if I got sick or died. I expect my Presidential candidates, especially the older ones, to do the same.

what about this point as far as ageism.

Palin actually puts down Biden for his age, commenting on his actions back in 72 blah blah, but Biden is only 7 years younger than McCaine.

I’m sorry – am I the only one who keeps making the visual-reading error every time I read her name?

Each time I read “Palin”, my mind’s eye sees “Pain”. And then my mind makes the quick notation of how Pain rhymes with McCain, and it is at this point that I realize I didn’t read something correctly.

Does this visual thing happen to anyone else?

GAMBIT: No worries, it’s all fun here.

@TheNakedHippie – Thank you

@squirbel: I see pain, too! Maybe it’s subconcious?

@ squirbel
I have some black people in my history?
Oh, those in your history are black people not african American.
Not to be confused w/ your history…Got it!

@ Bri_L
I don’t read much sincerity in her either

@ Maybe: What is it? She just seems sweet to me… Maybe I’m misreading something?

i don’t away the sweet factor

@maybe_KB: Let me break it down for you.

Not every black human on this earth is African American. Is there some part of your reading comprehension that missed the fact that I am Puerto Rican? Is there something you don’t understand about blacks in Puerto Rico NOT being African American?

I do excuse your rudeness.

Also – why did you add me to your fluther – if the first time you address me is insulting?

Can you remove me, please?

@squirbel – Obama is African American. His father is from Kenya or some African country and his mother is white. He was born in the United states therefore he is African American.