General Question

cdwccrn's avatar

Does Israel have the right to invade Gaza?

Asked by cdwccrn (3573 points ) January 3rd, 2009 from iPhone

Related, does Hamas have a legitimate beef with Israel? Who is right?

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53 Answers

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

Did America have the right to invade Iraq?

No one really has the “right” to invade another country, but if you have the resources and sufficient reasoning, than you have the “privilege” of doing so.

Edit: I don’t have a definition for “sufficient reasoning.”

Trustinglife's avatar

Personally, I don’t care who’s right. The question of who’s right is what makes conflict persist.

I want peace. I want peaceful co-existence. It’s possible. That is a place beyond who’s right.

tinyfaery's avatar

I agree with Tali, no one has the right to decide to divide the earth into factions, then invade those boundaries by means of violence. No one has the right to kill, for any reason.

cdwccrn's avatar

@trustinglife: so, if it’s truly possible, HOW do we bring about worldwide peaceful coexisttence? I want that, too!

jasongarrett's avatar

Every country has the right to defend itself.

Trustinglife's avatar

I wrote about it in detail yesterday under a different question. Here is what I wrote.

The essence of it is that when people move beyond their pain to see that revenge only perpetuates the cycle of violence, peace becomes possible.

This link will show you a group of Palestinians and Israelis grieving for lost family members together. When this mentality spreads, who would see the point in fighting anymore? Then, the consensus grows that we must resolve this conflict peacefully.

LanceVance's avatar

The invasion of Iraq in 2003 wasn’t legitimate, the Gulf War, however, was. The United Nations say that each country has the right to defend itself if invaded or feels the threat to be invaded, attacked. Under that rule it was decided that US-led coalition can free Kuwait of Iraqi forces.

As for the Gaza strip, it is de-facto a country, but de-jure, it’s an ungoverned piece of land. A piece of once promised land. This conflict doesn’t reach back to 1948, when Isreal emerged as a country, but back to the times of Moses and the pilgrimage of his people to the promised land. Then, the Palestinians inhabited the land. In 1948, Jews returned. Different religions couldn’t co-exits in one country, Israel, which caused the Palestinian resistance. It’s not the first time blood was shed and it won’t finish soon.

Palestinians want their own state. Israelis won’t let them. It’s happened before. Kosovo and Serbia, South Ossetia and Georgia.

jholler's avatar

Does it make any difference that Israel vacated Gaza as part of a concession, only to have Hamas use it as a closer launching point for rockets? Maybe they’re rethinking their concession…wasn’t it Golda Meier who, when asked when peace would come, answered “When they love their children more than they hate us.”? I personally don’t think there’s a chance for peace, except for that which the Bible says will herald the end of days. Check out the 14th chapter of Zechariah, even if you don’t believe the Bible, it’s an interesting look at the history of fighting in and around Jerusalem.

laureth's avatar

As someone said in a relationship question recently, do Israel and Gaza want to be right, or do they want to be together? ;)

rawpixels's avatar

Of course, Israel has the right to do what it’s doing. Hamas can’t expect to launch missiles into Israeli homes time and again without retaliation. Unfortunately, Hamas is a bunch of terrorist thugs, who hide amongst their own civilian population. I am frankly amazed at all the “outrage” being directed at the Israelis. Personally, I hope they destroy Hamas, or at least hurt them severely.

Trustinglife's avatar

@Laureth, most Israelis and Palestinians probably don’t want to be in a relationship together. But I’d imagine that most also don’t want to move. And they are neighbors. So given that, they can either try to get along and let each other live peacefully, or bicker and be right.

Ugh. What a clear choice to me. But then again, I have not suffered personally as a result of the others’ actions. Incidentally, my parents are visiting Israel right now for the first time in their lives. I hope that I won’t have to demonstrate my conviction personally through my own grief.

cdwccrn's avatar

@trustinglife: Please let us know when they return home safely

Trustinglife's avatar

@cd, thank you – I really appreciate that. They’re due back in 4 days. Put it this way. If anything happens, I’ll let you all know. I trust and hope nothing will.

augustlan's avatar

Hoping for your parent’s safe return, Trusting. Hoping for peace.

Maverick's avatar

Of course, like America did in Iraq, attacking a civilian population only encourages “terrorism” and will never stop it. It’s like throwing gasoline on a fire. The only solution is diplomatic and there will always be conflict, death, and idiocity until all the parties are willing to acknowledge each other and treat each other like human beings.

jholler's avatar

Part of Hamas’ charter is the destruction of “the Zionist entity” (Israel). It’s part of their reason for existence. What do you really think diplomacy can accomplish in that situation?

rawpixels's avatar

Diplomacy doesn’t work with those who only want to destroy you. They don’t want to negotiate. Unfortunately, these fanatics hide among the civilian population. All the innocents who are getting killed in Gaza are dead because of what Hamas has done/is doing. They have given Israel no choice.

Mizuki's avatar

Israel is always right. When they kill civilians they are right, old people, right, children, right. When the deny medicine to wounded, it is right. Israel cannot be wrong, ~how dare you!~

tinyfaery's avatar

We always have choices.

rawpixels's avatar

@Mizuki
Have a drink. You sound uptight

tinyfaery's avatar

Needless death and violence can do that to a person.

Mizuki's avatar

raw—make me a drink and I’m in. Strong

rawpixels's avatar

@Mizuki
I take it you don’t want a nice glass of Manischewitz

tinyfaery's avatar

Jews for Peace have been all over LA protesting Israel’s push on Gaza. Are they anti-semetic as well?

rawpixels's avatar

Some Jews are misguided. All of this is the result of Hamas hurling missiles into Israel. I have absolutely no sympathy for the Palestinians in Gaza. This is what you get when you choose fanatics to lead you.

tinyfaery's avatar

Perhaps you are the misguided one. Who decides? The same god that commanded no killing?

rawpixels's avatar

I don’t think I’m misguided. I’m not religious at all, and I never use Religion/God to enforce my beliefs. All I know is that Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. I’m not sure what country would sit back and let missiles land among their population. I hope Israel keeps this going and makes these nut jobs in Hamas think twice before acting.

tinyfaery's avatar

Nice. ~

Mizuki's avatar

Her is an interesting take on this topic:

http://321energy.com/editorials/moriarty/moriarty010509.html

The latest war crime on behalf of the whiners in Israel and their blind and ignorant supporters in the US have resulted in the deaths of 531 Palestinians and an additional 2500 wounded. Let me put that into perspective. The US has 200 times the population so for us to experience the same causalities, we would have to have 106,200 deaths and some 500,000 wounded in ten days of massacre.

Let me give you some facts no American media will provide you with. The Gaza Ghetto is 139 square miles, about the size of Philadelphia or Seattle. Within the Ghetto 1.5 million people live in abject poverty with an unemployment rate of 65%. It’s one of the most densely populated areas on earth. Israel maintains a total and complete blockade on the Ghetto (In comparison, the Warsaw Ghetto contained only 500,000 people)

The blockade is illegal but seeing as how Israel has ignored hundreds of UN Resolutions regarding their illegal treatment of Palestinians, it’s just one more war crime on their part.

Mizuki's avatar

Raw—if you’re grand parents were kicked out of their ancestral homes by Israel’s troops and rounded up in a slum prision for 50 years—you would treat them with all the love and respect they deserve, right? If your family was blown up in the King David Hotel by Menachem Begin, that would be OK, you would not want blood revenge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing

So if I came and killed your family, kicked you out of your home, and I took your home, it would be OK with you?

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

@Mizuki, But it was OK when America did it to the Native Americans? Except that time they didn’t give them any land or support to live on, they just slaughtered them all.

(And, once again, there were warnings sent before the bombing of the King David Hotel which they chose not to listen to, which is made obvious by your article with these words:
“Operating in disguise, Irgun members planted a bomb in the basement of the main building of the hotel, part of which housed the Mandate Secretariat and the British military headquarters. Telephoned warnings were sent to the main switchboard of the hotel, the Palestine Post newspaper and the French consulate[1][2], but no evacuation was carried out, giving rise to much controversy over the reasons why people were not cleared from the building.”)

Also, that bombing was against the British Mandate before Israel was a country. It was carried out by an organization called the Irgun, not by the country of Israel, so it has absolutely no bearing on this argument.

rawpixels's avatar

@Mizuki
I’m not saying bad things haven’t been done by Israelis. I’m saying that whether anyone likes it or not, Israelis aren’t going to one day wake up and give all their land to the Arabs. If you go back far enough, you can make an argument that the land called Israel belongs to the Jews.

The point is, Israel has always been willing to come to the table to discuss a peaceful settlement, yet nothing is ever good enough for the Arabs, so they use suicide bombers to kill innocents or they shoot missiles at innocents.

Once again, when you’re dealing with people who don’t want a 2 state solution or don’t want any kind of negotiated settlement, but only want your demise, there is a big problem. If Arabs truly wanted peace with Israel, they would roundly condemn Hamas and other fanatics, and embrace moderates. I don’t see that happening anytime soon, unfortunately.

Blondesjon's avatar

Since when has anyone believing whether or not someone has the ‘right’ to do something changed what that someone was going to do?

Trustinglife's avatar

I just read a great article by one of my favorite writers, Marianne Williamson, entitled, “Towards a Miracle in the Middle East.” Here’s the essence of it:

“We must mature beyond the belief that the thinking that got us into this mess is thinking that can lead us out of it. “The problems of the world will not be solved on the level of thinking we were at when we created them,” wrote Einstein. We must realize that the mortal ego will not provide us with a solution to the existence of war, because it itself is the problem. Notions such as, “The Israelis have a right to defend themselves,” and “The Palestinians have taken so much abuse; what do you expect them to do?” are both insidious drivers of war masquerading as principled stands. They keep us attached to the very duality that is the root of separation and war.”

If you resonate with that idea, I strongly suggest you read the whole article.

Mizuki's avatar

omf—you are correct about the treatment of the native Americans, and I think you make some good points. It is sad that in 2009 folks cannot come together and not kill eachother and find agreement to live in pease. I think the US bears some responsibility with the miserable failure of foriegn policy over the last few years.

One of my best college friends was from Israel, had just been discharged from her military duty, and she gave me a unique perspective, and I got many of my views from her. She said that the younger next generation will be able to work together for pease, but the generation still in charge cannot do anything withoug violence.

I am sure there is blame to go around. Why can’t we just get along?

Raw—so then the folks that don’t want pease screw thinks up for those that do? I could accept that….

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

@mizuki, Your friend might be right. But I don’t think the next generation will be able to non-violently negotiate peace because it is impossible (as has been proven an infinite number of times over the past few years) to make peace with people who are only interested in having you dead.
Obviously not every individual Palestinian wants to exterminate Jews and Israelis, but the government in Gaza (Hamas) not only spends exorbitant amounts of money on teaching youth to hate Jews/Israelis and promoting suicide bombers, but it also has made it nearly impossible for anyone to speak out against that idea without punishment of death (most often not by the government, but by fellow citizens who have been previously brainwashed by Hamas).
Until Hamas is removed from power (which is what Israel is attempting to do now), and Palestinians elect a new government that teaches them peace instead of hatred, there will never be a chance for peace; not in our generation, not in the next generation, and, unfortunately, probably not in the generation after that.

Mizuki's avatar

It is crazy to think that after being bombed to smitherines Palistinians will suddenly elect an Israel friendly gov.

The better option would be to relocate Israel’s population to South Carolina or Georgia. Every would be happy.

Problem solved!

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

So “I is crazy” to think that Israel would be right to defend itself and fight back after being bombed to smitherines daily for months?

The better option would be for Palestinians to elect a non-terrorist government (ZOMG!!) and learn to communicate verbally. “Every would be happy.”

Problem solved!

Mizuki's avatar

Defense is a proportional response, mass murder is killing 100 civilians for every one Israelite soldier killed.

But you are good with mass murder of civilians. Say so, and let’s put the thread to rest. It is OK do disagree.

Some would say, that the Israel government is a terrorist organization. They fit the definition.

I love it when they say, “we’ve got to defeat terror”—since terrorism is a tactict, how can an abstract tactic be defeated.

If you hate Israel, then support their current course of action. It will lead to a swim into the sea.

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

That made no sense. Hundreds of Israeli civilians have been killed in terrorist attacks by the Palestinians over the past few months. In Sde Rot, there were a minimum of 4 rockets and missiles every day for months on end.

I have never heard anyone even attempt to make the claim that the Israeli government is a terrorist organization, which is probably because it is a ridiculous claim. It doesn’t come close to fitting the definition.

How is terrorism an “abstract tactic?” I learned all too well it’s very, very real when my best friend (an innocent 8-year old) was murdered in a suicide bombing just by my apartment 8.5 years ago. If that’s not terrorism to you, then you are one ignorant person.

Mizuki's avatar

Swim baby swim.

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

After you my dear.

Maverick's avatar

Hamas may have been launching rockets into Israel, but to compare that with what Israel is doing is clearly biased. Israel has American-supplied gunships, capable of taking on tank deployments single-handedly. Hamas rockets are essentially just mortars, with a very low affect. The latest “rocket attacks” that supposedly prompted the Israelis incurrsion resulted in the deaths of 4 people.

When you call people “terrorists” you’re just showing a lack of understanding for one side of the conflict. The women and children on the receiving end of an Israelis missile would describe, quite rightly, the Israelis tactics as terrorism also. Terror is a very real tactic of war – studied, planned, and intended – so any nation that attacks another is guilty of “terrorism”. Which is precisely why the entire concept of a “War on Terror” was just so much hubris.

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

@Maverick, Very well said. But isn’t it the obligation of a government to protect it’s citizens? Why should Israel stand by while innocent Israelis are being bombed and killed? The point of this offensive is not only to retaliate and show Hamas that they will no longer stand by and watch innocent Israelis be killed, but also to remove Hamas from power in an attempt to move beyond the violent tactics of both sides which Hamas has been so kind as to introduce and make necessary. Also, the reason the death toll in Gaza is so high is because Hamas, the wonderful government that they are, decided to hide themselves among innocent people, making it virtually impossible for Israel to get rid of Hamas officials without killing innocent people. It is extremely unfortunate, but it’s just another display of how much Hamas values it’s citizens.

I think there is a difference between war tactics (which are equally as brutal) and terrorism. I think terrorism can be more described as individuals blowing themselves up in order to kill others, while war tactics would be a government blowing up others. There is a fine line, and I agree it is ridiculous. I also don’t think it matters what the definition is, I just want the death on both sides to end.

tinyfaery's avatar

Israel and “Palestine” have both contributed to the current situation. Neither side is innocent, just as neither side is solely responsible. I’ve enjoyed the discussion.

augustlan's avatar

@tali: Sorry to hear about your friend. That must have been terrible for you.

Mizuki's avatar

May the Lord have mercy on the souls of those so blackened by lies, fear and propaganda that they are unable to see how deeply Israel has waded into darkness. A great awakening draws near, and the blood of the innocent cries out for justice. There is no justification for the monstrous manner in which the Israeli state has treated the Palestinian people for decades. Those who have got used to living in the moral darkness that justifies it may find it somewhat painful to adjust to the light of realization that is set to dawn.

John Carville

archaeopteryx's avatar

@ Mizuki

Nice one!

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