General Question

TheIowaCynic's avatar

Why does Israel, who America gives billions of dollars a year to, not have a mutual extradition law with us and allow criminals from the U.S. to flee to Israel to escape prosecution here?

Asked by TheIowaCynic (582 points ) March 25th, 2009
Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

42 Answers

westy81585's avatar

I’m under the impression (and it could be wrong but this is just what I’ve heard) that we give them millions, not billions. Granted it’s hundreds of millions, but yah. Back up the numbers you have.

As for the actual question, I dunno why, but they are far from the only huge American ally nation that doesn’t have a mutual extradition law with us. (my guess would be that a big part of it may be that WE don’t want to sign the mutual extradition law as it might force us to extradite some people that we don’t think should be, think Palestinians).

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@westy81585

It’s $3 billion per year, plus more. For instance, after they were forced to admit guilt in the U.S.S. liberty incident, and forced to pay a few million dollars, that amount was simply added on to the we give them already. We also give them free military equipment and access to our latest technologies which are worth additional billions.

As to the rest of what you said – the only other ally we don’t have mutual extradition with is Brazil and we dont’ give them aid every year.

Now, you’re suggesting that we don’t have a treaty because we accept Palestinians who committed crimes in Israel and won’t extradite them? That’s totally incorrect. We give Israel everything they ask for, including guys like Demyanuk who never even committed a crime in Israel

MrKnowItAll's avatar

Your question reeks of anti-semitism.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@MrKnowItAll That is a ridiculous answer. It’s a completely legitimate question.

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

Why would Israel want our criminals? As if every country doesn’t have enough criminals, every one that has an alliance with us suddenly needs to take on ours as well?

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@omfgTALIjustIMDu

I think the concern is over American citizens with Israeli citizenship who have been known to commit rather huge crimes, particularly financial crimes, and then take off for Israel.

omfgTALIjustIMDu's avatar

@TheIowaCynic, Ah, I misunderstood the question wording.

Dr_C's avatar

The simple answer is because they choose not to… which is their right.
As to why they choose not to is a matter of speculation which is far beyond me.

SeventhSense's avatar

Because they are above reproach… and to consider otherwise is anti semitic. I think the Bush administration took a page from their playbook…oh no I’m anti patriotic!

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@Dr_C

That certainly is their right, however I suspect that if most Americans were aware of the details of our relationship with Israel, they would “choose not” to continue giving them aid. Furthermore, not giving direct answers to the concerns of the American people when they’re receiving billions in aid is ridiculous

hiphiphopflipflapflop's avatar

Two words: good lobby. ;)

aprilsimnel's avatar

Israel is the only safe foothold we have in the Middle East. Until the oil dries up, the US will do whatever it needs to do maintain a presence it doesn’t have to fight for.

SeventhSense's avatar

@aprilsimnel
They’re not done yet.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@hiphiphopflipflapflop

That’s actually wrong and something of a “red herring’ issue. Every nation in the middle east has shown a willingness to sell us oil. Every democracy, theocracy, kingdom, house-of-whoever. We make enemies by allying ourselves with Israel. We have no geopolitical reason to be more aligned with them than say, Syria or Iran, not to mention the fact that Syria and Iran don’t spy on us or blow up our navy ships or corrupt our political system

SeventhSense's avatar

@TheIowaCynic
Syria and Iran don’t spy on us
Seriously doubtful and I’d rather have Israel spying on us anyway.

corrupt our political system
?????

aprilsimnel's avatar

Hmm. Maybe Israel is considered a(n almost) white country in the midst of brown peoples? Culturally similar because of the European heritage? Remnant of the white man’s burden since Britain shucked away Palestine in 1947? I honestly don’t know, if not due to the oil.

Bagardbilla's avatar

@seventhsense
Yes! Corrupt our political system. Please read
Also this
and judge for yourself!

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@SeventhSense

I would encourage you to look into this more

Bagardbilla's avatar

Here’s that first link again.
And just for shits and giggles, go to counterpunch.org and search AIPAC… You’ll find plenty implicating our corrupt politicians and the system!

hiphiphopflipflapflop's avatar

@TheIowaCynic You asked the question. That’s the answer that makes the most sense to me as I see it. I don’t think anyone can deny the nation has powerful and wealthy advocates with lots of clout and influence over politicians from both parties.

SeventhSense's avatar

That site is simply inflammatory rhetoric devoid of substance.

steel-minded sadists, disgusting thugs-in-uniform, barbarians who are killing children, vile little war-gamers of the skies,blood brothers with the pilots of the Nazis’ Stuka ground attack aircraft of yesteryear
PULEEZE why not just pipe in the Ride of the Valkyries as background music

But the US House of Representatives rushed to praise Israel, and endorse its invasion

And how does this prove that israel corrupts our legal system? Just because the House endorsed their agenda?
Could it be that they agreed that Israel had the right to retaliate for a ceaseless campaign of rocket attacks against their soil.
And maybe Palestine was not effectively addressing the problem? And so they decide to use force to eliminate the threat to their civilian population. Furthermore they give ample warning to tell them where they will strike. Palestine does nothing to warn its people but instead uses it as an opportunity to offer them as sacrifices for their propaganda machine.

And here’s a little inflammatory speech of my own,
Let me ask you this? If you daily threw rocks over the fence at your neighbors pitbull for a year and then one day he decided to come over and rip your face off would it surprise you? Furthermore, what if the owner said, “Hey, I’m going to open the gate!” and you failed to get out of Dodge. Who’s to blame?
Israel has powerful influences in the US and we have a strong ally with them. That’s a good thing because Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and the entire Muslim world seem tenuous at best.
Israel has a population that has been subject to constant warfare since its inception and it’s actually amazing that they have had as little confrontation as they have. They have the best air force in the world and a highly trained civilian armed force.

SeventhSense's avatar

What we need to do is work hard to eliminate the Private influence over banking that has ties to Israel in this country and work hard to significantly reduce our aid to Israel. The situation is helplessly entrenched on both side and there can be no solution through showing which side has experienced greater loss. Both sides since the 1940’s were not beyond picking up body parts from the battlefield and transplanting them for photo opportunities. Both sides plant lies, prooganda and pose as other’s suporters and it’s twisted. They are both seriously ill societies. We should not support them to the extent we do, but there is obviously a greater plan that we know nothing of that has to do with US interests in the area and our ties to finance. I would hope we would have nothing to do with the whole region but that doesn’t seem like it will be the case. The entire area is a powder keg and if any diplomacy is to be had it will only come from within the nations of Israel and Palestine.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@aprilsimnel

That’s ridiculous. Russia is a great deal “whiter,” than Israel yet we constantly antagonize them. That’s something of a standard “wish it were true,” lefty, explanation.

aprilsimnel's avatar

@TheIowaCynic – Then I’m sure I don’t know. I don’t know why we’re there and why we don’t have an extradition treaty with them. If it’s not money or oil or leftover imperialist crap or some other realpolitik mutual handwashing, then I don’t know what it is.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Bagardbilla
@TheIowaCynic
I read your links, now you read mine:

Lebanon is and would be an outstanding post for us in the region. It has long been a Christian government and with the developing peace talks with Israel and a little backing of the Christian party, Hezbollah could be driven back. Sharia law is not a solution and is by no stretch of the imagination as inclusive as a Jewish or Christian state to when it comes to the rights of citizens and the open exchange of ideas. Just take a trip to Saudi Arabia and tell me about freedom of anything. It is a threat to democracy and our ideals. And did you catch Aminijad at Columbia University? He’s insane.

Furthermore there are ideas in the pipeline and some of these military aims cross all party lines. And, not that it’s right, but our government is not run by a consent of the people but moneyed interests elected representation and they pull the strings. Don’t forget Condoleeza Rice’s trip back in June where she expressed :
United States’ desire to find a solution to the land dispute as a catalyst *for solving bigger issues in the region” Hmmm…what would those bigger issues include?
Furthermore pay attention to Hillary and see if she’s not also on the same bandwagon as things develop further.

I like those Lebanese (ok maybe just her father was Lebanese) and I might do some battle for that..umm.. culture.
Stay tuned. More will certainly be revealed.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@SeventhSense Who’s father was Lebanese? You’ve done a great deal of peripheral explaining about things like laws, but there’s a bigger issue that concerns me. Why are we involved in the first place? We’ve already determined that oil is a red herring issue. No government in that region has ever denied us oil OTHER THAN in protest for our unmitigated support of Israel. We have no business there.

Some complicated things can be oversimplified. Far more common, and as is the case in this instance, simple things can be overcomplicated. We have no business in that region. Period. What happens with Iran or Saudi or Israel is none of our concern. We are the main power in the Western Hemisphere – separated from that region by several thousand miles of Atlantic ocean and several more thousand miles of various Seas. There’s no reason for us to be there. We shouldn’t be having conversations about Lebanese Christian parties or Sharia law.

SeventhSense's avatar

@TheIowaCynic
Those red things are links. You can click on them. And if you don’t extend me the respect of investigating them, as I have yours, then there is no point in conversing. when you do, get back to me.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@TheIowaCynic Not attempt is being made to offend or disrespect. I’m trying to look at the larger, big picture of America’s involvement with Israel and why we tolerate the bizarre terms of our “alliance” with them

MrKnowItAll's avatar

The fact is that the US and Israel have a close, cooperative relationship, even though sometimes, the US national and political interests and goals conflict with Israel’s. Your “straw-man” question infers an Israeli policy of providing refuge for criminals wanted by the US. That is simply untrue.

The US also, as a matter of policy, uses its aid to Israel (and to other countries as well) as a tool to shape their domestic and foreign policy. It is seldom, if ever, that a quid pro quo is not part of an aid package, regardless of the recipient. We’ve made Israel toe our line for their aid, and we will continue to do so.

Straw man arguments are for those who lack facts or reason to support their position.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@MrKnowItAll

The idea that we make Israel “tow the line” is easily disproven. Steven Rosen is on trial for espionage against the United States government for Israel. We don’t even require that they stop spying operations to continue receiving money. Many Israeli’s in America have, in fact, fled to avoid prosecution such as Samuel Sheinbein.

We do not have a “close, cooperative relationship,” with Israel. They benefit the USA in no way whatsoever. They use American equipment to move settlers into land isn’t theirs, against every international courts ruling, and make us enemies in the process.

Our close cooperation includes things like blowing up the USS Liberty and only agreeing to pay a pittance of reparations to the survivors and families of the deceased after almost 20 years and constant haggling.

There’s nothing cooperative about our relationship with Israel

MrKnowItAll's avatar

Congratulations! You have successfully ignored over 60 years history of US policy toward Israel under Democrat and Republican administrations.

Your opinion is quite imaginative, unencumbered by pesky facts or historical accuracy.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@MrKnowItAll

That’s a nice, broad assessment. Please tell me where I“m off on the facts or how we benefit from Israel or how the US uses it’s aid to shape Israeli domestic foreign policy or where the quid pro quo is.

MrKnowItAll's avatar

Go Educate Yourself. The facts are available to anyone with the time and intellect to read. I only bothered with you because your question is so transparently Anti-Semitic.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@MrKnowItAll

You might want to consider changing your name from “mrknowitall,” to “Mrknowthatotherpeopleagreewithme”

Your response is no response. You’re not giving me a single counter example, but instead saying “well, that information is out there, you just need to look for it” That’s not even a debate technique. It’s more an admission that you have no idea what you’re talking about…......followed up by the standard charge of “anti-semitism” which is now used by American Zionists to mean “anybody who questions any nature of our relationship with Israel or what any group or individual might do on their behalf”

really…...do you have an actual response or just calling names?

augustlan's avatar

[Mod says] Flame off, folks. Please stop throwing around inflammatory terms like ‘American Zionists’ and ‘Anti-Semitic’.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@augustlan

who is augustian? If I’m trying to describe the people here in American that facilitate our relationship with Israel, what label would you suggest I use? That is the most descriptive and least offensive one I could think of. Who are you anyway?

augustlan's avatar

[Mod says] I am a Fluther moderator. Israeli Supporters? Pro-Israel?

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@augustlan Fine, but I’ve never heard anybody express a problem with the term “American Zionist,” before.

augustlan's avatar

It was flagged by other users, which brought it to my attention. Thanks for understanding.

TheIowaCynic's avatar

@augustlan

Where did you come up with the name Augustian? Are you a fan of the first Roman Emperor?

augustlan's avatar

It’s actually August Lan, but that’s a common mistake (dang lowercase L looks just like an uppercase I). It’s just my birth month, followed by my initials.

SeventhSense's avatar

This just insee my last post on this thread and…... we have some stabilization in Lebanon.
Yes we do exert strong influence. And that’s a good thing. OK back to work for me.

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