Do you know what/who we should hold accountable for the thriving rape culture in our society?

Is that the question we should be asking?

@Ivan
who’s we?
and yes, it is

I think rapists should be castrated. Repeat offender? Sorry.. can’t. xD

<throws his hands up in disgust and walks out>

Held accountable, individual rapists definitely.

And, of course it’s good to try to reform each one, but honestly, I think, that, as a society, we’d probably be better served trying to alter the larger forces that produce them. It just seems like it would produce a bigger “rape reduction” bang for our proverbial buck.

Of course, this is all conjecture, and I don’t have any “real” reasons to believe it…

It’s a crime and we should punish the perpetrators harshly

If we believe in the free will of the perp, then we might hold the actor responsible.
If we don’t, then we can’t.

I think rape is more a crime of violence and power than sex and gender.

@NaturalMineralWater
@The_Compassionate_Heretic
besides the rapists, are there any others/anything else?

I just now had a thought; would it be a good idea to objectively define rape for the purposes of this discussion?

For instance, does statutory rape count?

The rapist is to be held accountable. He made the decision to do it himself.

we have a rape culture? When did this start? I didn’t get the memo. I’ve heard that it is on the rise in places like Sweden that have had a sudden influx of immigrants, but I haven’t seen the statistics that verify that opinion.

Maybe I don’t understand the question or I haven’t been informed of any epidemic of rape cases in America.

@jonsblond
he? you assume it’s always a he? i think that’s problematic

@Lefty_the_space_monkey
I think rape can be anything the victim didn’t want to do, sexually

I’ve never heard of a ‘rape culture’. Do you have some articles or links or this a google item?

@evelyns_pet_zebra
http://jezebel.com/388169/college-senior-is-sexually-assaulted-while-group-of-dudes-cheer

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I only speak from personal experience. I should have included he/she.

@lefty_the_space_monkey, I was going to make a joke about raping statues, but that would probably get me anti-lurve.

@VzzBzz
http://jezebel.com/388169/college-senior-is-sexually-assaulted-while-group-of-dudes-cheer
http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:x9wWXe7ETVcJ:www.students.haverford.edu/masar/documents/RapeCulture.pdf+rape+culture&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

What exactly is meant by “didn’t want to?”

please not I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I’m just trying to get a handle on the discussion

For instance, what if someone isn’t enjoying a sex act, but continues in spite of this out of a desire to please their partner who is? Is that rape? What if the partner didn’t know? What if they did?

@Lefty_the_space_monkey
i don’t want to presume i can define it better than others
but what you say doesn’t sound like rape to me
but i’m not others

I think an interesting follow up to this question might be something like, “What societal, environmental, or personal conditions lead an individual to commit rape?”

@theluckiest
ask it then
it is a good q

@theluckiest That should have been the question to begin with.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

That article was horrifying.

It’s scary what human beings turn into when they gather in large groups.

I think mob mentality is likely responsible for some of our (as humans) greatest crimes.

Who else are you trying to punish? I don’t get it. Society is not to blame for an individual’s actions.

Well, I see that this is one case of very bad behavior (those dumb fucks cheering) and it only goes to show that maybe alcohol should be banned at colleges. Rapists should be severely punished, she should have kneed the bastard in the nuts. This is a bad thing, but not to sound callous, one episode of retarded and offensively unwanted sexual behavior hardly makes it a cultural phenomenon.

I’ve never heard of the term “thriving rape culture” and it’s a little disconcerting if I do say so myself. And I do.

Rape is a crime of violence and all perpetrators need to be punished and held equally accountable. If they aren’t physically castrated then they need to be chemically castrated. After that, they can sit in prison for 25 to life and ponder the reasons why their ‘equipment’ doesn’t work.

Naw I’m just gonna lurk here ;)

I wish you’d linked to the Jezebel article from Thursday or Friday—the one about Facebook. The article talked about the problem of logging onto Facebook and being greeted by the face of your rapist in the “People you might know” area. I will find it and bring it back.

I will also look for the one about convictions. We absolutely do live in a culture that does not do enough to prosecute rape. The number of convictions we have is pathetic.

@NaturalMineralWater
I don’t think it’s that simple: it’s not society v. the individual in this case, imo

Rape isn’t about sex or sexual deviancy. Rape is about power, more like lack of personal power for the assailant. If there is a ‘rape culture’ then the underlying cause must be helplessness, hopelessness festering in young people as they grow.

Some blame could be the bullshit their parents fed them about being the bestest, luckiest, smartest, most loved kid’s ever and then they go into the world and find they are not so special, not so brilliant, not so individual after all and people aren’t making exceptions for them because of their ‘potential’.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Explain?

Here’s the one about the Facebook problem: http://jezebel.com/5185533/finding-her-rapist-on-facebook-one-woman-ponders-demanding-an-apology

More harrowing than the article alone is the sheer number of commenters who respond saying they’ve had the same problem.

@EmpressPixie you think it’s bad here, what about some of those foreign countries where adulterous women are stoned to death? Rape is much more common in those places. I won’t name any names, but anyone with an ounce of knowledge about other countries can easily figure it out.

Maybe a concealed carry gun law would make sense. Someone tries to rape you, you just shoot the fucker in the balls.

Unfortunately, like @jonsblond, I speak from personal experience, as well. The male (he was certainly no man) that attacked me, make the decision to rape me, and others, all on his own. he was punished and eventually committed suicide.

Like something @EmpressPixie mentioned, from what I learned from the Prosecutor that was over the trial I was involved with, said that rape is hard to prosecute. Victims often don’t want to see it through – too embarrassed, fear of reliving it – over and over. Not enough evidence, at times – it becomes a he said/ she said.

The person that raped me, had a prior offense. He was ordered to participate in a sex offender program. That worked! He was sentenced to a lengthy sentence…only after raping several women.

I’m all for chemical castration, though I would prefer physical…without any pain meds.

@NaturalMineralWater

What’s that old saying, something like “Every society has the criminals it deserves?”

People don’t just wake up one day and murder/rob/rape. Rapists are produced by their environments.

Doesn’t mean the rapists should be able to use this as an out, but it does mean that you need to fix the source of the problem.

For all of the proponents of castration. Are you all aware that castration doesn’t eliminate the ability to achieve an erection?

I think most people mistakenly believe that castration involves removing the penis.

The rapist, and only the rapist should be held accountable for the rape. If it turns out the individual was abused as a child, then his/her abuser should be held accountable for that.

From an historical perspective, there is less rape taking place in Western Civilization today, than there has been in any known culture, at any time in history, so I’d be curious to know what you mean by “rape culture”

That would be a penectomy, not castration. Penectomy seems like a good punishment for a rapist.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey – Unless the person that raped me kept some deep dark secret, he came from a great background. Now, he friends that knew, turns out he bribed them, in order to keep them silent. We learned that because one of them jumped ship and told his story.

@augustlan – I understand castration; however, there is that dark side of me that has my own special version.

@evelyns_pet_zebra I agree. Penectomy would be an appropriate punishment for rapists and child molesters as well.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey

Just because the thing that shaped them into a rapist could have been abuse doesn’t mean it was.

Our society (I think a lot of societies share this with us) is very desensitized to violence. It also has a strong fascination with sex, while simultaneously treating sex like something that is dirty.

I’d say that those three could definitely have an effect on whether someone becomes the sort of person who rapes other people.

Food for thought:
Sexual Assault Report in the Armed Forces (US) are up.
There’s actually a video game designed around raping women. It’s popular.
There is the issue of “not rape” wherein a woman or man does not immediately realize they were raped. It’s very… difficult. This is a good article on ‘not rape’.

In England, in a recent case, a woman was awarded a financial compensation as the result of her rape. Her compensation was cut by a quarter because she’d been drinking that night. Because she’d gone out drinking, she was punished for being attacked. (here)

Judges like to BAN the word ‘rape’ in sexual assault cases. Because it’s a powerful and emotional word.

I’m still looing for my Jezebel article with the conviction rates.

But to answer the question: In general, no, I don’t think we hold rapists accountable.

Also, while thinking about what the word actually means makes me feel nauseous, I’d like to point out that the word “penectomy” sounds really funny.

@evelyns_pet_zebra: I was keeping it to the western world for simplicity’s sake. Hasn’t the UN just acknowledged—or begun to acknowledge—that rape is being used as a method of genocide in Darfur?

(As above, a Jezebel article to elaborate.)

I can’t help it! Jezebel has a wealth of really wonderful articles on this topic. It’s one of the main reasons I read them.

@ Simone
No. The individual is ultimately responsible for their own actions.

@EmpressPixie Rape is being used as a weapon of war in Darfur. By definition though it can’t be called genocide because rape doesn’t kill. Murder kills.

@The_unconservative_one: Genocide is the methodical extinction of an ethnic group. They are using rape as one method of achieving this.

@The_unconservative_one I think maybe technically it could be construed as a tool in the genocide warchest if the rape is used as a means of alienating women and discouraging (or preventing) the ethnic legacy of a group

@EmpressPixie genocide is defined as the systematic killing of a racial or cultural group. Rape does not kill.

@The_unconservative_one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions

MTV and rap “music”

@steve6
elaborate

@EmpressPixie
yes not enough victims come forward and very little rapists get convicted
and for not long enough

@TheIowaCynic
steve, just cause theres less rape now doesnt mean theres no rape culture

@theluckiest No thanks, you can keep your wikipedia. My definition came from Princeton University. http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=genocide

@The_unconservative_one Did you look at the link at all? “wikipedia” didn’t write the slew of definitions compiled there. It includes the working UN definition of “genocide”, which is much more relevant than any dictionary’s definition, and instead of the word “kill” it says “destruction”. Very very different.

Actually I didn’t look at the link. If I want to see the UN definition I go to the UN site, not wikipedia. Are you aware of what the suffix “cide” means? Pesticide, Regicide, Infanticide, Spermicide Are you seeing a pattern here yet?

@The_unconservative_one Indeed. If we were discussing the etymology of the word, you’d be dead right. However, a great many words don’t have the definition their etymology would imply, but something based on that etymology.
We’re discussing (I think) the legal and practical meaning of the word. Of course that was never specified.
For definitions of legal terms, it’s rarely a good idea to look in a dictionary.

@The_unconservative_one: Now you are running into the problem that English is a living language. Definitions change over time as we grow and adapt the language to our needs. For example, “gay” was once used purely to mean something happy or joyous. Not so today. Good, descriptive dictionaries allow for this. Prescriptive dictionaries—those that seek to limit language and introduce only that which is “appropriate” do not.

@theluckiest The word wasn’t used in a legal sense, thus for this conversation it isn’t a legal term. @EmpressPixie I will be quiet now and you can use the word any way you like. Even if you are using it incorrectly

But it is used in a legal sense. I was talking about taking someone to international court for genocide in Darfur. You read the article, right? You wouldn’t tell me I was wrong without at least reading the article.

@the_unconservative_one The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). Article 2:: Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)

@dictionary-addicts Holy cow.. so many dictionary-addicts out there. You know what was intended by the word castration.. can’t you just get past it and move on? lol I’d hate to have your anality. Curse me for my English as a second language..

@Lefty_the_space_monkey Why stop there then? Society also produces murderers, thieves, adulterers, and Bill Clinton’s.. There are countless special interest groups dedicated to bettering society in each one of these areas.. my point isn’t that we shouldn’t better society.. but rather take care when adjusting our aim around obvious problem children… as you said “Doesn’t mean the rapists should be able to use this as an out”

I just think it’s dangerous when you try to shift blame from a rapist to his environment.

@NaturalMineralWater I used to think that way. In fact, I often do. Castrate the bastards. But what if the person is later found innocent? This happens periodically, and the prisoner is set free with some kind of compensation (although nothing can give him back his time spent there).

But after castration? Oopsie… sorry.

Why wasting time cutting off private parts, simply excitute them or make them work hard labour until they die. The thing is, it’s not the private parts that’s doing the raping it’s the mind that’s doing the raping. You can treat them, but it will never solve the problem or the mental scar left by the alleged rapist will never be gone 100%. One of my collouges’s daughter was gang raped a week ago and I can see what it did them as a family. Who can we blame? The media? Porn on the internet? Porn on cell phones? I think we play a role in this!

@Zen Why punish anyone then? Why… they could all possibly be innocent!

Seriously.. what do you suppose are the stats for “later found innocent” rape charges? If you’re little swimmy guys are inside a small, beat up child.. how often is it a government conspiracy? I don’t buy it.. but then I’m biased.. I hate rapists.

I believe the increase in rape is due to the emasculation of men in our culture. Without addressing this problem, you’re only treating a symptom.

Of course, that’s not to say that individual rapists aren’t responsible for their own actions. Merely that in a society that vilifies masculinity, the raping and/or beating of women is often the way troubled men hope to discover and attain power.

All of us who feed into it, either by actively furthering it, or by not speaking out against it when comes up around us.

masculine, malevolent, mannish urges

I am still anxiously awaiting an explanation as to how somebody can see contemporary western civilization as a “thriving rape culture”

@theiowacynic

I don’t think there is a rape culture in America.

Perhaps there is in the minds of violent criminals and thugs but we widely regard these types as not conducive to a functional society.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic I agree 100% which is why I am so fascinated at everybody who responded so uncritically. People really are lemmings. They really love to pay homage to whatever concepts are most popular. This got me thinking and asking a follow-on question.
http://www.fluther.com/disc/39728/can-you-think-of-any-culture-in-history-at-any-point/

@TheIowaCynic re:rape culture
There is definitely a “date rape” culture at a great many universities in this country, I think.

@NaturalMineralWater re:“later found innocent”
While rape is one of the worst reported crimes in the USA, it’s also one of the most misreported. There are many instances of rape charges being used for revenge against an ex-lover or never-was lover. And even when the allegations aren’t false, there’s not all the genetic evidence you might think there is.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic
Ironic term to use in the manner in which you did. Not to mention condescending.

Lemmings

@theluckiest Not to diminish the disgustingness of false accusations, but there’s very clearly more of a problem of a) rapes being underreported b) trials being so traumatizing to rape victims that the vast majority of rape cases go unprocecuted, among other things.

@resmc I agree completely; I hope my comment didn’t suggest I thought the latter point was a more serious concern than the former.
I’m committing the Fluther fallacy of overlapping threads- the latter part of this one is more geared to the “mutilation” question I asked, although the question was inspired by punishment ideas prescribed here.

@theluckiest Not really; though being so – frankly – scared and disturbed by those who see it that way, or even don’t see rape as a problem – that i’ve come to assume that’s the position of someone bringing up the subject. It speaks far more to the defense mechanisms i’ve developed than to your comment :-)

We really need to find a way to modify our justice system in order to be both more conducive to rape victims, and properly vigilant against false accusers.

It would be much easier if we had thread trees – eg. my response would be indented under your initial comment, your reply would appear directly under mine, probably no indent – rather than chronological threads.

@resmc I agree but alas this isn’t wis ;)
The system here isn’t terrible by any stretch, but not perfect. No no ;)

I agree with everything you said. Except at first I thought you were offering “thread trees” as a potential solution to the difficulty of sexual assault cases on the victim, lol. I think we are properly vigilant against false accusation, generally. A bigger problem is society re-accepting an individual that has been wrongly accused. In today’s society you’re guilty well before you ever hit the court room.

@theluckiest This also isn’t a site prone to being intentionally swarmed by misogynist trolls. Such a novelty, it’s hard to fathom :-)

Oh dear, that would be an interesting solution. Well, since we’ve solved this big social problem, let’s go see what we can do with other ones (j/k).

It’s odd, as it seems society is hostile both to rape victims – especially in court rooms – as well as the falsely accused.

@theluckiest Obviously I wouldn’t advocate the castration or penectomy of someone who didn’t have such evidence associated with him… cmon now….

We just had a convicted child molester released in our community. He has admitted to over 50 molestations and rape. They have a security trailer parked in front of his house for his protection. All payed for by us, this is totally SAFU. Situation All Fucked Up!

Whoa~ the numbers were just released on what it is costing us to take care of this asshole, $29,000 per month! Nothing being said what they are doing for the victims.

@Poser
you can’t seriously think it’s the emasculation of men?
what does that even mean?
maybe we shouldn’t be raising our male children to think that ‘emasculation’ in whatever sense they encounter it is a serious enough problem that it’d cause them to rape women

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Or perhaps teaching our “male children” that their masculinity is something to be ashamed of—something to be caricatured and scorned by society—is a contributing factor to many rapes. I never advocated teaching anyone that rape is acceptable.

@Poser
masculinity is made up by society, it’s not scorned by it as if it’s a thing outside it

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You’re telling me that in the entire history of humankind, all the similarities between various societies’ ideas of masculinity have been merely coincidences? That there are no objective traits shared by men that collectively make up an idea of masculinity?

Sorry I don’t buy it.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Hm… Gender is a social construct, but the idea that one’s sex in no way influences one’s personality traits and that therefore “maleness” can’t exist outside of gender seems somehow like an enormous leap.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey
no there are such things as physical attributes to the category of male…but can we really chalk it up to hormones? that’s a leap as well

@Poser
the fact that many societies do something similarly doesn’t mean it’s right or that it didn’t spread from those of power to those who didn’t have any like because of colonialism, for example..sexism is sexism is sexism, in loads of places…women are subordinated due to plenty of reasons but it doesn’t mean it’s right

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I never advocated sexism. Your admission that masculinity = sexism reveals yours. Does this mean that feminism = sexism?

@Poser
oh no no, I never equated masculinity with sexism…I was just using sexism as an example of something else, like gender norms, that is universal..doesn’t mean it’s inherent or right…and some feminists can be sexist, yes, but that’s not what feminism is about…

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Of course nobody’s entire personality is the result of the differences between the hormones present in males vs females, but it does have an effect. It’s silly to pretend that people’s personality is completely independent from their sex.

And if we admit that sex does have an effect on personality, then those things promoted in one’s personality by being male could reasonably be called masculinity. (Of course this issue is confused in that traits associated with the male gender are also referred to as masculine, but that’s something that cannot be uncommon when dealing with the differences between the two.)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Certainly that isn’t what feminism is about. Neither is that what masculinity is about. Though I find it odd that you don’t argue there is no inherent femininity the way you vehemently argue against the same for masculinity.

@Poser
oh I do, actually, :)
there’s no inherent femininity
there’s nothing I hate more than second wave feminists trying to get me to connect to my ‘inner feminine sacred place’ inside my earth-womb

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I chuckled audibly when I read ”‘inner feminine sacred place’ inside my earth-womb.”

Thank you.

@Lefty_the_space_monkey
-heh, you’re welcome—

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I thoroughly enjoy connecting with my GF’s inner feminine sacred place.

@Poser
haha

The individuals who commit the crimes should be held accountable and sent to prison.

As to castration, people have been exhonerated of rape, just as people have been exhonerated of murder. So I believe that such barbaric punishments as mutilation and the death penalty should not be imposed under any circumstances.

And as to whether we have a “rape culture,” I’d need to see statistics (confirmed from several different sources) of rapes per capita in western nations as compared to under-developed nations before I can comment one way or another. If anything, I believe we have an overly broad and draconian definition of rape in western society. I think it’s a gross injustice when a 18-year old can be convicted of “rape” for having sex with his 17-year old girlfriend.

@HungryGuy I agree that there are gray cases but there is plenty of ‘real’ rape (no consent) that occurs. I do not really need to compare our country to others because that’s irrelevant as to whether or not we should still address an issue here.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Yes. real rape occurs everywhere. And those accused of rape (or any other violent crime), need to be tried before an impartial jury, and (if convicted) be imprisoned (and rehabilitated if possible).

What do you mean by “a thriving rape culture?”

@HungryGuy Read this.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I think those rules it lists and and assumptions it makes about womens’ behavior (as opposed to mens’ behavior) are overtly sexist and stereotypical, describing attitudes about women’s behavior that existed back in the 1950s, and not at all accurate about the differences between mens’ and women’s behavior and mannerisms today, at least in western society. I’m surprised that anyone, especially you, aren’t laughing out loud at the assumptions that all women demur to men in social situations.

Of course, rape is a serious issue, whether or not western civilization condones a “thriving rape culture.” The article lists two approaches to dealing with rape: dealing with the victim, and dealing with the rapist.

The victim, unfortunately, has two options: learn to defend herself, or not. If you have other options to toss out for discussion, let’s hear them…

The rapist, again, comes down to having an effective justice system that puts evildoers behind bars (after facing a fair trial) for as long as it takes to protect society from their behavior. Education is another approach—everybody must be taught the basic difference between right and wrong at an early age. As a semi-Libertarian, I believe an objective definition of right and wrong is the right of every individual to do anything that is non-coercive, or of any group to do anything that is mutually consensual. I believe if we had a largely Libertarian society with such an ethic that respected everyone’s right to live and interact however they choose to that’s mutually consensual, that would go a long way in preventing all sorts of criminal behavior.

But again, to answer your specific question as stated, I beleive that it is the rapists as individuals whom we should hold accountable, and no one else. Rape is a heinous crime, second only to murder, and rapists should face life without parole (real rapists—not that 18-year old with the 17-yo girlfriend) for the protection of society.

@HungryGuy I am constantly surprised (especially on Fluther) about how 1950s some attitudes (when it all comes down to it) are of people who you’d think would know better. I, of course, believe that rapists should be held accountable but they don’t grow up in a vacuum.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Right. Nobody grows up in a vacuum, which is why I included education in my answer. So what do you suggest be done to reduce the incidence of rape, besides the following:

1) Teaching young women to how to defend themselves (perhaps as part of Phys.Ed.).
2) Teaching all people the basic differences between right and wrong at a young age (perhaps as part of Civics or Social Studies).
3) Incarcerating rapists for life to protect society.

Beyond these, what can society do that doesn’t involve draconian laws and punishments?