General Question

resmc's avatar

Do you ever feel like some, if they have the luxury of it, use barbaric history as an excuse not to do what they can to minimize present-day injustice?

Asked by resmc (749points) April 8th, 2009

Have been running into this a lot lately. In every instance, the individual doing this had never experienced the type of systemic injustice in question, and was mostly free of the risk of ever facing it in the future.

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73 Answers

RedPowerLady's avatar

Ahh but oppression still exists today. And even though they may not face the exact injustice they still face the effects of it. And by denying that you are contributing to said oppression.

Perhaps an example would lead to more discussion. However I believe the answer above will cover most examples of this type of behavior.

SeventhSense's avatar

Some? How about all of us. We imagine that it’s us and them everywhere. We have Conservatives and Liberals; We have Democrats and Republicans; Good people and bad people; Rich people and poor people; Corporations and unions. We all imagine that it’s the other person’s fault and responsibility. Very few people actually pick up the plowshare and those that do are usually quietly toiling away without applause.

squirbel's avatar

As a white person I always saw terms like honky or cracker as evidence of how much more potent white racism was than any variation on the theme practiced by the black or brown.

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “nigger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with.

Power is like body armor. And while not all white folks have the same degree of power, there is a very real extent to which all of us have more than we need vis-à-vis people of color: at least when it comes to racial position, privilege and perceptions.

Consider poor whites. To be sure, they are less financially powerful than wealthy people of color. But that misses the point of how racial privilege operates within a class system.

Within a class system, people tend to compete for “stuff” against others of their same basic economic status. In other words, rich and poor are not competing for the same homes, bank loans, jobs, or even educations to a large extent. Rich competes against rich, working class against working class and poor against poor. And in those competitions racial privilege most certainly attaches.

Poor whites are rarely typified as pathological, dangerous, lazy or shiftless the way poor blacks are, for example. Nor are they demonized the way poor Latino/a immigrants tend to be.

When politicians want to scapegoat welfare recipients they don’t pick Bubba and Crystal from some Appalachian trailer park; they choose Shawonda Jefferson from the Robert Taylor Homes, with her seven children.

And according to reports from a number of states, ever since so-called welfare reform, white recipients have been treated far better by caseworkers, are less likely to be bumped off the rolls for presumed failure to comply with new regulations, and have been given far more assistance at finding new jobs than their black or brown counterparts.

Poor whites are more likely to have a job, tend to earn more than poor people of color, and are even more likely to own their own home. Indeed, whites with incomes under $13,000 annually are more likely to own their own home than blacks with incomes that are three times higher due to having inherited property.

None of this is to say that poor whites aren’t being screwed eight ways to Sunday by an economic system that relies on their immiseration: they are. But they nonetheless retain a certain “one-up” on equally poor or even somewhat better off people of color thanks to racism.

It is that one-up that renders the potency of certain prejudices less threatening than others. It is what makes cracker or honky less problematic than any of the slurs used so commonly against the black and brown.

In response to all this, skeptics might say that people of color can indeed exercise power over whites, at least by way of racially-motivated violence. Such was the case, for example, this week in New York City where a black man shot two whites and one Asian-Pacific Islander before being overpowered. Apparently he announced that he wanted to kill white people, and had hoped to set a wine bar on fire to bring such a goal to fruition.

There is no doubt his act was one of racial bigotry, and that to those he was attempting to murder his power must have seemed quite real. Yet there are problems with claiming that this “power” proves racism from people of color is just as bad as the reverse.

First, racial violence is also a power whites have, so the power that might obtain in such a situation is hardly unique to non-whites, unlike the power to deny a bank loan for racial reasons, to “steer” certain homebuyers away from living in “nicer” neighborhoods, or to racially profile in terms of policing. Those are powers that can only be exercised by the more dominant group as a practical and systemic matter.

Additionally, the “power” of violence is not really power at all, since to exercise it, one has to break the law and subject themselves to probable legal sanction.

Power is much more potent when it can be deployed without having to break the law to do it, or when doing it would only risk a small civil penalty at worst. So discrimination in lending, though illegal is not going to result in the perp going to jail; so too with employment discrimination or racial profiling.

There are plenty of ways that more powerful groups can deploy racism against less powerful groups without having to break the law: by moving away when too many of “them” move in (which one can only do if one has the option of moving without having to worry about discrimination in housing.)

Or one can discriminate in employment but not be subjected to penalty, so long as one makes the claim that the applicant of color was “less qualified,” even though that determination is wholly subjective and rarely scrutinized to see if it was determined accurately, as opposed to being a mere proxy for racial bias. In short, it is institutional power that matters most.

An excerpt cited from A Look at the Myth of Reverse Racism

Blondesjon's avatar

The human mind is capable of lying to itself in infinite ways. If you don’t want to do it you will find a reason that makes you comfortable not doing it.

SeventhSense's avatar

@squirbel
I have a hard time with the racism argument. There have been too many advances as of late and I think that much of what people continue to harp on are cultural ideosyncracies. As a white male I have felt abject racism from black people for no reason other than the color of my skin. We have a black president. We don’t have a Jewish, Hispanic or female president whose numbers far exceed the black minority. I actually question racist politics in this day and age. It’s almost like their is a neo conservative race issue agenda that begs to revisit milestones past. We need to focus on moving forward as Americans. Not African Americans, Jewish Americans, Chinese Americans but just Americans. Race should be removed from our language in general and especially in politics.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense As a white male you have the privilege of deciding that this should all end. The rest of us have to deal with racism and oppression on a daily basis. And we by no means have the power to make the changes you have suggested. That must come from the majority population.

Also there is something to be said for all of us having our own ethnic identities. I do not simply want to be an American. I am very proud of my culture and heritage. And by our own self-determination we do have Native American politics which for our community, in the face of horrible oppression, is a huge step forward. And I would not recommend we give up that right.

Blondesjon's avatar

@SeventhSense…You RACIST!!!

I’m just kidding. That was a Great Answer. Nicely put. We need to all learn to hate each other on an individual basis.

I hate that I have to add that the above statement is really how I feel and not yet another feeble attempt at humor.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Blondesjon
thanks..that must have been difficult :)
<——American citizen

tinyfaery's avatar

This reminds me of slavery reparations. The argument against it is that none of the African Americans alive today experienced slavery, yet the heirs of the whites that benifited from the blood, sweat, tears, torture, death, severing of families, of the slaves are, in many cases, still reaping the rewards of that toil. What do the heirs of the slaves’ have to show for it?

RedPowerLady's avatar

@tinyfaery exactly

and of course there is much more to it as well but that was well said

Blondesjon's avatar

@tinyfaery…Every man makes his own way because there is no other that can.

squirbel's avatar

Bullshit. You didn’t make your own way – your ancestors did. Show me a self-made man and he isn’t on Fluther, to be sure.

Except the Fluther founders.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon And some have thousands of additional obstacles to face. Thus the idea behind oppression and giving a helping hand.

SeventhSense's avatar

@tinyfaery
@RedPowerLady
We can all learn from Nelson Mandela This was a man who sufffered for 27 years in prison under an oppressive regime of Apartheid in South Africa. He was later elected as the first president through the will of the people. And what was his first act in office? Did he have a day of judgement or vengeance? No, he made a day of reconciliation of forgiving publicly those responsible for the system. You would be hard pressed to find a more powerful, healing courageous and intelligent act by a leader. And see the answer on this thread by the South African @isidingo as to racial joke to see how the seeds of this approach continue to bear fruit.

RedPowerLady's avatar

I find it a bit silly that the ones “arguing” that such ideas (reverse racism, reparations, etc..) are wrong are the ones who have power. Seems a bit redundant.

Blondesjon's avatar

I guess with that logic in place we all need to start feeling guilty for appreciating the Pyramids in Egypt or the Coliseum in Rome.

It’s always easier to make your problems into another’s.

resmc's avatar

@Blondesjon I’m curious – have you or any of your relatives benefited from the GI Bill, perchance?

(Am not implying that the soldiers who did so didn’t earn those benefits, btw)

And none of us have anything to be guilty for, on this score, except any racist actions we’ve done, or for failing to try to uproot the inequality around us that we have/had the power to at least influence. Focusing on guilt really doesn’t help anyone, tho it’s oddly a very common reaction (having done so myself).

Blondesjon's avatar

@resmc….No I would have to google “GI Bill” to know what it was exactly.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense It isn’t about judgment or vengeance. It is about those in power recognizing their power. And those in privilege recognizing their privilege. And then reaching out to give some of that to everyone else.

Such as Nelson Mandela did. He got power. Then he recognized it and gave some away.

Blondesjon's avatar

@squirbel…Show me exactly how my ancestors have helped ME.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon By giving you the power of the majority.

squirbel's avatar

Put it this way – have any of your family members ever served in the military? Have any of their children gone to school using veteran’s benefits?

That’s what a GI Bill is – http://www.gibill.va.gov/.

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
I find it a bit silly that the ones “arguing” that such ideas (reverse racism, reparations, etc..) are wrong are the ones who have power. Seems a bit redundant.
Here’s three that haven’t: Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, Nelson Mandela
It isn’t about judgment or vengeance. It is about those in power recognizing their power. And those in privilege recognizing their privilege. And then reaching out to give some of that to everyone else.
And how would you propose this be done?

Blondesjon's avatar

@RedPowerLady…When you are poor you are the minority. The rich keep us divided over stupid issues like race. It’s not race. It’s money.

Blondesjon's avatar

The poor are fed this bullshit so we never get together long enough to realize how badly we are getting fucked.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense
Martin Luther King?? Are you kidding me. You are listing three people who had to fight their butts off to get any power at all, to get people to even listen to them. And then MLK was assassinated for his ideas. How does that prove your point?

“and how would you propose this?”
First you have to recognize your power & privilege. We still haven’t got past that. Most of the majority has yet to do so.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon I must agree with the classicism comment.
However race is not bullshit. Only someone who is not of color could say that.

squirbel's avatar

And most of you assume that RedPowerLady is poor, and non-white. Shame on you.

She just has her eyes wide open. She sees it.

SeventhSense's avatar

Your approaches are shortsighted and prolong racism. The examples of the persons mentioned change history. Read my threads and consider them.

Blondesjon's avatar

@RedPowerLady…Did you just tell me because I am white I am nothing?

@Squirbel…I’m poor and white. Where is the shame in that?

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon

What I am saying is not that because you are white you are nothing. That is silly. What I am saying is that because you are white you have the privilege could say that race is bullshit. The rest of us have to live with race everyday and we see everyday that racism is not just about money. And we also see that getting rid of race wouldn’t change a thing because we LOVE our cultures. We have to find a way of keeping our cultures and dealing with oppression.

squirbel's avatar

@Blondesjon: Every man makes his own way because there is no other that can.

And no – I was not saying that there is anything wrong with being white, or being poor.

What I am pointing out is that your [and seventh’s] statements above deride all these notions as being classism as opposed to racism; and also that redpowerlady, myself, or anyone who disagrees isn’t really seeing your points and usually that’s because non-white status is assumed.

but in the case of non-white status I’m being admittedly over-sensitive. it’s obvious i’m not white. :P

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense I would say the same about your approaches. And I feel like you have yet to consider the idea of oppression which I have brought up several times.

I still have yet to understand how the examples mentioned above give any credit to your approaches.

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
People like Martin Luther King and their principled ideas based on courage and bravery paved the way for the person who currently resides in the white house. If it were only the Al Sharptons we heard the black community would be still segregated. There is an approach which puts out the fire and one which pours gasoline on the fire. The approach is forgiveness, not keeping score regardless of the side. I am not sorry that I am white…Oh P.S.- I am white and I was born in Liberia, imagine that. A freed slave colony.

Blondesjon's avatar

@squirbel…Exactly! Finally, somebody gets it. I am where i am because of ME. Not the past, not my race, not the future…ME.

This Truth encompasses everything. We’ve just all been trained to believe that nothing is our fault.

squirbel's avatar

Right – I mean – imagine a world where everyone just quits seeing racial lines.

Imagine we stop using racial terms to define ourselves.

What culture would we live in and exist in and follow?

Exactly.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense First off I don’t think anyone should be ashamed they are White.

Now to your MLK idea. I agree some things make it better. Some make it worse. But I believe we disagree which is which. Also MLK made a difference by recognizing and talking about racism and not by ignoring it.

Blondesjon's avatar

@squirbel…A culture where we were all responsible for our own actions and determined our own fate?

squirbel's avatar

It’s a white culture.

Why don’t we all start living the way the Chinese do? That’s a nice culture – they honor their parents, family honor is really important too. I’d like to try that.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon You are you because of the past and present. Without it you wouldn’t exist. And we live in a community defined by our past. It can’t not exist. So we must find ways of acknowledging our past’s (personal and historical) and working with them.

Also I do not know why you assume that by talking about racism people are not taking responsibility for their own actions.

RedPowerLady's avatar

apologies for typos

squirbel's avatar

To answer the original poster’s question – some take advantage of the system. But not everyone is claiming that injustice – most people actually need help because they are truly disenfranchised.

Blondesjon's avatar

@squirbel….Bullshit It’s a rich culture and you bought into it.

@RedPowerLady…Because the only person responsible for my actions is me. I hate people for a myriad of reasons but only after I have gotten to know them. Racism or any other “ism” is an extension of the same idea. You can only decide what your thoughts and actions will be. Everyone else has to come to their own conclusion.

If you continue to dwell in the past you will be dooming yourself to live there forever. I prefer to move forward in my own way.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon Perhaps you have the priveledge to ignore your past but I don’t. My people don’t even have religious freedom. That is a result of the past. And it still exists today. Imagine that. I can’t escape it. You can. Example of privilege vs. oppression.

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
First you have to recognize your power & privilege. We still haven’t got past that. Most of the majority has yet to do so.
And how would this be shown? This seems the *exact opposite*approach to any that has borne fruit in the past. It is motivated by the very human desire for vengeance plain and simple. But a line of white bodies hanging from trees from Alabama to Maine will accomplish nothing but create a big stink.

squirbel's avatar

@Blondesjon: I do care about your opinion, so that’s why I’m asking for clarification.

It’s a rich culture and you bought into it.

I’m not understanding your intent or meaning :(

squirbel's avatar

RedPowerLady is not suggesting that we annihilate the white people, or even suggesting that what was done be done to them. That’s just rude.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense When did I say I wanted vengence? I even clearly said I do not believe in that. Stringing up white bodies will not accomplish anything. But we cannot stop oppression until those who have the power to oppress recognize that is what they are doing. In the example of MLK. Before he spoke up very few people recognized racism for what it was. As soon as those in power started seeing it for what it was (thanx to the activism of Black people and them bringing up the issue even when people didn’t want to hear it), i.e. recognizing their oppression and power, things changed. It is the exact same approach.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@squirbel Thanx. I certainly am not suggesting that. I am only suggesting that we cannot eliminate racism by ignoring it. And that those in power, i.e “white people”, must recognize their power.

Blondesjon's avatar

@squirbel…You have bought the rich’s argument that we all hate each other and that racism is still very prevalent in our society.

@RedPowerLady…Worship is not ceremonial it is emotional and spiritual. You are allowing someone to keep you from your beliefs. The past is immutable. You can’t change it anymore than you can change the sun setting in the west every evening.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon When you are jailed for your religious practices you are not allowing someone from keeping you from your beliefs. You actually can’t practice them without fear of persecution. That is Not A Choice.

You are absolutely right. One cannot change the past. I have not suggested we do so. You can recognize the effects the past has on the present day and work to fix them.

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
Thanx. I certainly am not suggesting that. I am only suggesting that we cannot eliminate racism by ignoring it. And that those in power, i.e “white people”, must recognize their power.
No we RECOGNIZE it. It’s time to move FORWARD. It’s so hard to have a respectful conversation when there is this furious power driven approach. Why not reflect on the salient points I raised. The object lesson that worked with Apartheid. The experience of the gentleman who grew up in S. Africa not knowing apartheid. The reason why MLK’s approach worked is because he wasn’t passing a burden onto others but just wishing to release blacks from opression. You still have not answered my question as to how do you propose that white’s recognize? What would this look like or be represented as. This is the last time I will ask the question.

RedPowerLady's avatar

S. Africa is not America and has its own politics.

MLK absolutely placed responsibility on others.

You can start recognizing your power by agreeing that the past does have an affect on the present. That oppression does exist. That people are held back because of their race. That most makeup and skin care products come in only one color. That you can drive the streets without fear of being pulled over because of your skin color and others cannot. That most of those in power are White. That there is a glass ceiling. Etc…. It would look like people from the majority culture saying YES this does exist. No it is not Okay. Lets work towards change while accepting each others difference. And then actually working towards it without fear of persecution. Or fear that if you bring up race issues you will get into a long online “argument”.

Blondesjon's avatar

@RedPowerLady…Above all else you have a right to your own thoughts and opinions. I say money. You say race. The end result is still the same isn’t it?

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon I want to agree. But the honest truth is that we have to recognize it is both. Because if we don’t then we are allowing oppression to continue. That has been my argument all along. We have to recognize that this does exist and that it is a problem. Just like an alcoholic can’t stop drinking until he recognizes he has an addiction.

squirbel's avatar

I haven’t – I don’t buy into anyone’s ideas. To allow another man to think for me is the height of laziness, in my opinion.

And mind you – I was raised in a very affluent society – there is no question about where I stand, there. Rich and poor – I have lived on both sides of the road. I’m about to be married to a man who has not yet finished his degree – but he makes me happy.

I know that racism exists. I have felt it.

It exists in silly ideas that people have about another race. Ideas that are not necessarily true. Like what, you may ask? When have I experienced this veiled racism?

—When I get on an elevator, the lady switches her purse to the other side of her body, and moves closer to the wall.
—When my husband-to-be and I went house searching, we expressed interest in a particular secluded neighborhood. We were told “There aren’t any available homes in that particular neighborhood.” [Of course, that was a bait-and-switch on our part, because we have friends who live there and are looking to sell, so they don’t have to pay two mortgages.]
—When we go into stores, clerks are always following us around, but not asking if we would like assistance.

I don’t know which is worse. But it isn’t like we can sit down with a person and tell them that the way they are behaving is wrong, because it’s plausible deniability. Everything that we experience can be chalked up and they can say You are imagining it.

Blondesjon's avatar

@RedPowerLady…I am 100% behind you that oppression continues in many forms. If we disagree on labels or methods, well, that just makes us individuals doesn’t it.

As individual as we are I hope we can still be friends.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Blondesjon No hard feelings. Still friends, yes. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issue. :)

squirbel's avatar

Hear hear!

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
As a white male you have the privilege of deciding that this should all end.
When did I get so powerful. Maybe you can get me a mortgage on some of those special white priveleges. Stop this P.C. bullshit someone please. Makeup? How about the long lines of baggy jeans I see at the department store and I can’t find a pair that is not a hip hop style? These are all petty arguments and we all have to do this together. I have a sense that there is an identity crisis in the black community. Without racism. there are certain interests that have no identity. They need to find a new job.
@squirbel
Yes Racism still exists. It is changing and will continue to change as generations pass. Our approach is only one of prudence. The law is clear about equal housing and rights. Yes individuals need to be proactive. People need to be supportive.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense I suppose we must agree to disagree.

It is not about being PC. And you have not addressed the more pressing issues. Okay focus on baggy jeans if you want. I’m sure there are still plenty of Wranglers in the stores. And yes, you are more powerful, if you read the article that @squirbel wrote above it outlines some of that power. And yes it is very likely you will be able to get a mortgage easier than a person of color. But I suppose there is no point discussing this anymore as we have not been able to find any common ground at all.

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
Because maybe the racism is equally on the other end.

YARNLADY's avatar

I just can’t help wonder why, now that the blacks are free to return home, we can’t just them a free one way ticket, along with the whites who don’t like it here either. Remember, I am a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma (a great great grandaughter of an original Native)

Blondesjon's avatar

@YARNLADYyou’re chinese?

YARNLADY's avatar

@Blondesjon Huh??, you mean the ones who crossed at the Bering Straits? They were Mogolian. The Choctaw came up out of the ground where they had been created

SeventhSense's avatar

@RedPowerLady
I am as solid a proponent of equal rights as you will ever find but we all have to take responsibility. Anything else will only create handicapped people. Peace

Blondesjon's avatar

@YARNLADY…Yes they did.

OpryLeigh's avatar

I can’t change what my ancestors did but I can choose never to forget it and, where I have the power (ie: taking responsibility for MYSELF – because that is the only power I have) never to let it happen again. I agree with pretty much everything SeventhSense has said in this thread. To change the world and the way people see things we MUST take responsibility for our own actions. I can’t feel guilty for something I didn’t personally do (or even remember happening) but I can choose to accept it, learn about it in order to educate others, in order to prevent it from happening again. THIS is the POWER I have and it is the same power that we all have and it is EVERYONES responsibility.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Leanne1986 I agree with what you have said in part. You certainly have that power. And that you recognize you have that power is fantastic. And that you recognize the past and your responsibility to make sure it doesn’t reoccur is exactly what I’ve been saying needs to be done by those in power. And as you said you certainly have the power to do that. I also agree it is everyone’s responsibility. We just don’t all have the same amount of power to affect change.

Just a note: Also I never once said that people of color don’t have to take responsibility for their own actions.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Leanne1986
You see it’s hard to understand. I had trouble for a while too until it all became clear in a vision. It’s all about:
The whole mysterious group of those in power.
The secret society of ancient Anglo Saxons who drink the blood of virgin minorities and are clothed in majestic robes of rubies and diamonds. Yea they shall descend from their holy mountain and beseech of thee the downtrodden their most humble genuflections. And further more make sacrifices at the altars of progressive and radical recognition. Tearing asunder their scarlet robes bathed in the blood of generations of the opressed they will clothe themselves with sackcloth and ashes. And peace will once again return to the valley. The rivers will flow with milk and honey and angels will sing of the Powers that Recognized their Responsibility. It will thereafter be remembered as the Oppressive Powers Recognition Act day..Or OPRA for short. ~_~*

OpryLeigh's avatar

@RedPowerLady I know you didn’t say that people of colour don’t have to take responsibility for their actions, I didn’t mean to imply that that is what I thought you meant because I know you don’t!

What I mean is, whether we all have the same amount of power to make these changes or not we should all ACT like we do, if we all take responsibility for our actions then we can all work towards making the world a better place for everyone. We must do this TOGETHER and not as seperate races/ethnicities. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be proud of their culture. I myself am proud of my own mixed blood. However, I don’t think we should seperate ourselves from each other because of the colour of our skin.

It is no good for anyone to sit back because they don’t believe they have the power to make the changes because to begin with we can all only control ourselves.

i hope that makes sense, I know what I mean in my head but I am struggling to put it into words.

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