General Question

Crusader's avatar

Why is the assault of a white person by someone of another race not a hate crime.

Asked by Crusader (576 points ) May 12th, 2009

Many cases throughout America, and South Africa, and other places where whites are prosecuted for Hate for a crime that is merely ‘hooliganism’ if perpetrated against them, (and far less/no incarceration for the offender against a white..)

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99 Answers

Ivan's avatar

It is, so long as you can show that the crime was motivated by race.

Crusader's avatar

@Ivan, name the federal legislation. Also, plenty of examples of such behavior being overlooked as ‘hooliganism’ in NY and other democrated bastions, (bad publicity.) Not to mention such crime being incredibly Underreported or not at at all.

wundayatta's avatar

It certainly can be a hate crime. Once again, as usual, you don’t do your research, you have no sources, and you blast your prejudices out without evidence of an ounce of thought. Pure ideological correctness. Must be nice to be so certain.

@Crusader, you just make it way too easy.

justwannaknow's avatar

Because that would not be politically correct I guess.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Ivan Great Answer!!

Crusader's avatar

@daloon,

Where is your research? I can cite considerable quantities of evidence of Hate, rapes, mutilations, assaults, vs. whites that were relagated to hooliganism, or simple assault. However, even mention a single epithet as a white and engage in a conflict, and you are Done. Yours is the deception. Mine is the truth. If the roles were reversed and whites were the victimizers, I would rail against them, regardless of my personal gain or ethnicity.

However, as long as the Perception of White extremism and encouraged, and other groups-all those who are not straight white men- blacks, latinos, Indians, and jews in particular, are Percieved as victims Now, (true or not,)then such injustice, hypocrisy violence and deception will continue in the name of ‘political expediency’ (See Malcom X) then the ‘white devil’ will never have justice. White (man) Hate is politically correct, and such is the core value of the liberal.

Stop the hypocrisy and encourage unity, have courage and accountbility, continued ‘preferences’ for all other than straight white men Will have consequences, as will the un and underreported violence and absence of effective Hate Crime protection for white victims of assaults. Very Few white are Rich, equal pay for equal ability, equal opportunity for all, not just the politically expedient hypocrites.

With the liberal there is no forgiveness, only perpetual Hate

Ivan's avatar

@Crusader

“If the roles were reversed and whites were the victimizers, I would rail against them, regardless of my personal gain or ethnicity.”

That, my friend, is bullshit.

Crusader's avatar

@Ivan

Speak for yourself, please.

_bob's avatar

Is that you, Steve?

Ivan's avatar

@bob_ lol

@Crusader

I don’t have anything to speak of, considering I’m not railing against a particular race for being violent.

augustlan's avatar

Can you provide some links to back up your assertions?

justwannaknow's avatar

@Ivan It sounds like you are very narrow minded and can not be swayed regardless of proff or argument. Sorry, just my opionion and it does not count for sh*&.

Crusader's avatar

@augustian,

Yes, not pretty pictures, though, there are assertions and statistics available.

augustlan's avatar

Also, I would like to point out that if a crime is committed against a minority by a white individual it is not automatically a hate crime. Only if it is, in fact, motivated by hate.

Crusader's avatar

@justwannaknow,
@bob,
@daloon,
@realeyesforreallies,

Here is a link for you.

http://loompanics.com/Articles/hatecrimes.html

Ivan's avatar

@justwannaknow

I don’t know where you got enough information to make that judgement. Not a single argument has even been made on this thread. The only thing I have done on this thread is state the current federal law and call out a racist when he made a pathetic and transparent attempt to cover his ass. If citing relevant federal law and not being a racist makes me narrow minded, then I’m not exactly sure what that makes you.

Crusader's avatar

@Ivan, enacting legistation and Enforcing it are very different equations, politcal correctness defines whether a law is enforced, you are not that naive. Unenforced legislation, or selectively enforced legislation is Worse than no legislation, it represents a complete lack of confidence in the justness of our legal system.

Also, I once lived in a Very liberal place, where a (white male) teacher was driving home, in while in traffic, in broad daylight, and shot point blank in the head on the street by a young black man, raised on white hate media, and publically schooled to hate whites, he killed the teacher, attempted to escape, was apprehended, and, when asked why he executed the (white) man, he replid, “I wanted to kill a white man and/or a white cop.” I wonder how much time he will serve before the city releases him early due to lack of funds…? Perhaps the high incarceration rate is a the reason no Hate Crime enforcement, it is already expensive to maintain so many in prison now with a standard sentence.

Crusader's avatar

Here, again, is the link for a small amount of citations,

http://loompanics.com/Articles/hatecrimes.html

justwannaknow's avatar

@Ivan This is not the first question I have observed you making comments on and to make the assumtion a person is racist because of what is on this thread is pretty judgemental. Get to know someone before you make such an acusation. And before you accuse me of the same you will be wrong. Some of my best friends are african american, mexican and chinese. Some are even real Americans, Now called Native Americans.

lefteh's avatar

Re: “name the federal legislation”:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/appendix_a.htm

Ivan's avatar

@Crusader

It has historically been very difficult to prove that a crime was motivated by race. I would guess that the vast majority of hate criminals do not get convicted as such. But that is true in all situations; your insinuation that black-on-white hate criminals are prosecuted less than white-on-black hate criminals is simply unfounded (and your continual use of some old propaganda website is not going to change that).

@justwannaknow

“you are very narrow minded”

“Get to know someone before you make such an acusation.”

Crusader's avatar

@justwannaknow,

You comments are informed. I also have friends of all ethnicities. However, I believe that until America believes that All are ‘real’ Americans, there will be discord. We are all, after all, real ‘humans’ on planet earth.

augustlan's avatar

@Crusader Let’s assume, for the moment, that the link you have provided is credible. In that case, it’s a crying shame that those hate crimes were not prosecuted as such. They should have been, in my opinion.

However, I would not classify all of those crimes as hate crimes. Just as I said before, the fact that a crime is committed by one race against another does not make it a hate crime.

Crusader's avatar

@lefteh,

Good, now we are getting somewhere. Name me an advocate group that supports whites in this regard like the NAACP or ACLU, or many others…Without political clout the legislation is hollow in ineffective as my link below and Many others would indicate. There are Many political reasons to Not enforce Hate Crimes against perpetrators of such violence against whites, just as their are many reason For the enforcement of said Hate crimes against blacks, hispanics, asian, etc…Again, political expediency.

http://loompanics.com/Articles/hatecrime/html

lefteh's avatar

Sweetheart, posting a link more than once doesn’t improve its credibility.
Especially when the website describes itself as follows:

“Loompanics Unlimited is the publisher of the world’s most controversial and unusual books: non-fiction and how-to for anarchists, survivalists, iconoclasts, mercenaries, investigators, drop-outs, researchers, and just about anyone interested in the strange, the useful, the arcane, the oddball, the unusual, the unique and the diabolical”

Ivan's avatar

To quote one of my good friends, spoken in broken English, “You know you’re a racist when you have to tell everyone about all of your black friends.”

Crusader's avatar

@lefteh,

Brother, credibility is the question here, yes? Plenty more credible sources, also, such investigations for Truth are the province of society outcasts, generally, as the establishment will crucify them every opportunity.

@Ivan,

To quote one of my good friends, ‘All politics are done for the sake of expediency’ we did not land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on Us, ‘whites are devils’ Malcolm X.

And as far as ‘having’ to tell others, that, again, is a personal choice, better to never make the admission, yes? And allow people to believe what they want? Lending to racist..So, you are a racist is you do not admit it, and a racist if you do, right? Wrong. Cautious is a better word, and justifyable so.

Your version of ‘fixed’ English is very entertaining, such hubris, such pride, such certainty, why you would make an excellent inquisitor, or Roman judge, ‘He neglected a prepostional phrase, crucify him!’ All demon-inspired individuals seek a pretext to destroy truth, you and yours are no different.

And when admitting having acquaintences and respect for people who do not love or respect you generally becomes a thing of bad character, well, that is when the minority rule-with lies (outright, and by ommision,) fear, and cruelty.
I pray a noble Christian theocracy occurs in America before this apocolypse…

Ivan's avatar

Cool, now I’m a demon and we’re advocating Christian theocracy. This stayed on-topic.

Nimis's avatar

Noble Christian theocracy.

Is noble a euphemism for pureblood? Yergh. You are really giving me the heebie-jeebs.

augustlan's avatar

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

<< Stops following.

shilolo's avatar

Crusader, When you are right, you are right. I mean, this has been going on forever in the US. All those lynchings by blacks on whites, the white women raped and the black men set free, white churches burnt to the ground without repercussion, whites not being able to eat at black-only cafes or drink from black-only water fountains, whites having to ride in the front of the bus and not being able to attend prestigious schools. When will it end? I for one will not stand for it anymore! Oppressed white people unite!

ragingloli's avatar

@Crusader Oh the world had a Christian theocracy already. ‘t was called the “Dark Ages”.
These were good times. I can see why you would want this time back, after all, in the good ol’ times, The Noble Roman Catholic Church stomped out and suppressed any thought or teaching that transgressed against the infallible word of the Holy Bible, and with impeccable faith in the Lord, eliminated the heretics behind it. It was a real shame that this Golden Age came to an end, and that we now have a reign of reason and science in the western world, which is clearly wrong, for it contradicts the Bible.
Everything that contradicts the Bible is automatically wrong and probably of the devil.

The great Martin Luther once said , Reason is the Whore of the Devil.

Estuans interius
ira vehementi
Sephiroth!
Sephiroth!

Mako's avatar

Because white people are perfect and no reasonable, rational human being could possibly “hate” them. Maybe a “jealousy” crime would be more apt.

dynamicduo's avatar

Hey @Crusader, this is getting old. Can you please do at least SOME research before coming in and shitting around the place?

Oh, and America wasn’t built on religion. In fact there is a clear separation of church and state. But I don’t expect you would know that, seeing as you’ve apparently never read any of the documents related to the country you live in.

Truth? Crucify? Wanting a Christian nation? You are one of the big reasons why America is so fucked up as it is now. I’m guessing you also don’t believe in the fact of evolution either, right?

And this is why I live in Canada, where there is at least a bit more logic running around.

lefteh's avatar

The tribe has spoken.

Crusader's avatar

@lefteh,
Your tribe, not mine.
@dynamicduo, Reserve your comments to your own country, you live in a paradise…of hypocrites, America provides Far more for the worlds poor and underserved, yours simply gives sound bites on TV for the most part. (did’nt someone decapitate another on a greyhound bus up there recently, and he is now in ‘psychiatric evaluation’ and due for release in just a few years, yeah, great place,) but you do not have the racial superiority issues of Africans nad Latinos to deal with do you?

Oh, and I know you love the San Francisco culture, as it appropriates all you expect at the expense of conservatives who protect your pathetic self that you will never meet. And you call yourself the caped crusader? For who? Masoginistic tyrants? Yeah, that sounds accurate.

Also, the Protestants were the initial European immigration, facilitating trade, developing the land, and making it possible for ingrates like yourself to have plenty of time to spew hate to their memory, great job, dude.

You obviously do not know what a Christian nation is, American certainly is not that, though there are more kind, gently Christians individaully there than anywhere else in the world per capita. though their numbers are shrinking, largely because of those who would Hate them, like you and your friends here.

Christian nations are socially conservative, and financially moderate. There you are. You do not value truth, just power and pride, obviously, the nation is still ruled by law and protects and enriches yours, Canada, ‘the land of the few and we are keeping it that way’

You can have your heartless logic, easy pickings for tyrants.
Special blessings for Canadian social conservative Christians.

Crusader's avatar

Anyone care to comment on the thread topic?

ubersiren's avatar

I see where @Crusader is coming from **curls into fetal position in anticipation of rotten veggies being thrown**. I agree that racism can be between any 2 or more races. There are black supremacists just as there are white ones. I don’t agree that since whites have long been the haters, we can’t complain about being hated. I personally have never hated anyone based on race and would expect that if I was beaten to a bloody pulp by someone who hated white people, that it would be considered a hate crime. Hate is hate and race, gender, religion, etc shouldn’t categorize said hate into different levels of severity. Any time a, let’s say, white man is overpowered or outnumbered, he becomes the minority. You wouldn’t say that a wife who beats her husband shouldn’t be charged with domestic abuse because women have long time been the most prominent victim, right? I know fluther is full of people much smarter than I, so maybe I’m just not understanding something in the thread. But this is just all my opinion.

Though, I do agree that @Crusader, your question would have had more guts if you posted a specific case or story that you were referring to or something… I know you linked things later, but at that point, people are already jumping down your throat. I’d also appreciate it if you wouldn’t make non-religious issues a religious discussion. It just doesn’t have merit with people who are not religious. It doesn’t “help” your cause.

EmpressPixie's avatar

The American Civil Liberties Union defend Constitutional and legal rights. They look at cases to see if there is a fit and then defend them. They’ve taken on cases that have made me cheer and cases that have made my stomach turn. They’ve helped people of every race, ethnicity, and gender. It is pure ignorance to write that they do not. They defend against the gradual erosion of our rights—usually by defending people who absolutely make someone’s stomach turn. Because they know that if they do not stand up for the villains’ rights, ours will be degraded as well. The American law is built on precedent.

@ubersiren: No one here is arguing that there are not hate crimes against white men. We are arguing that, in fact, there are but for something to be tried as a hate crime, there must be proof that hate was the motive. This goes either way. Regardless of victim or aggressor, for it to be a hate crime, there must be hate, not simply two races/sexualities/genders/etc involved. Further, we are saying that if you can show hate as the motive, the case is tried as a hate crime. In fact, you are agreeing with the majority of the thread.

@Crusader is saying that in the US, cases that were motivated by hate were not pursued as such. Motive is usually a difficult thing to prove, so the DA is more likely to go with what they think they can make stick. This means many hate crimes—against all kinds of people—are not treated as such. It is unfortunate, but true.

To answer the Q: I can only say what Ivan said. He had it right and in one line. It is, if you can show that the crime was motivated by hate. I will elaborate and add that unfortunately, this is very difficult to prove. Despite was movies and television imply, it is exceedingly difficult to bring mental state into a court room—be it to increase the severity of the crime (as in hate crimes) or to excuse/explain behavior (mental disorder or illness).

Crusader's avatar

Does calling a white woman a ‘white b***ch’ ‘w***re’ while violating her not qualify? Happens all the time, not reported, or, if so, not convicted as a Hate crime.

Is describing a white man as a cracker ‘m***f***r’ while beating him not a Hate crime? Happens all the time, not reported, or, if so, not convicted.

The DA is beholden to political authorities, the political authorities want Expediency, any accusations against a black/mexican/asian assaulting a white will either not be reported and/or countered with a barrage of propagando of white supremists violence profile of an incarcerated prisoner of an action occuring years ago in a land far away…Many example of such atrocities perpetrated against whites Every Day in Every part of the country, especially cities.

ubersiren's avatar

@EmpressPixie : Right. That’s what I said. Hate is hate. Ok, so I’m agreeing with most of the thread. I’m disagreeing with other parts of the thread- like @shilolo and his 10 “great answerers.”

shilolo's avatar

@Crusader Stop making up anecdotes. You seem entirely unable to prove your point, and as such, resort to imaginary events, with imaginary outcomes (i.e. the DA won’t prosecute a crime because of blah, blah, blah.) These are your opinions only. Without any hard data, they are meaningless.

EmpressPixie's avatar

If something is not reported, it cannot be pursued legally. Even once reported, it must be determined that the motive for the crime was hate. There are many reasons to try and intimidate someone during a crime that are not based in hate.

@ubersiren: I believe part of the point of that comment is to get at the problem of institutionalized racism (and if not, it should have been). IR is a particularly difficult concept for many people to accept. We are raised that American is the land of the free and that we all have the opportunity to be the next president. However, the things our grandfathers and great-grandfathers did play a part directly in what we are able to do. As they created and changed the system they lived in, their prejudices shaped it as well. Too often people think because we have the Equal Rights Act and now a black president, that the other systemic problems have been magically fixed when in fact, it is still ingrained in the culture of the United States, though less overtly and therefore much more dangerously than it was before.

It is easy to look back at history as say “Yes, it was wrong to make black people drink from a different water fountain.” It strikes us as absurd in the extreme. Yet, at the time to suggest there was something wrong with the system was an extreme and radical view.

This does not excuse racism on either side, but merely points out that white people—white men—have institutionalized advantages. Please read this very short essay on institutionalized racism. It’s fantastic and gets at the heart of the problem in a way that I’m not sure I can.

_bob's avatar

@Crusader I didn’t ask for sources, I was (and still am) wondering if you’re Steve.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@Crusader, this whole discussion is idiotic. Nowhere in hate crime legislation does it mention specific races. It does not say that only the assault of a non-white person is a hate crime. No matter who is attacked, the prosecution must show it was race-motivated. Racially motivated assaults of white people do not happen that often. White people are fucking everywhere.

You constantly rant about citing sources, but the loompanics article has no sources. It is a website that obviously has an agenda. None of those paragraphs are news; they are deliberately and unselfconsciously biased. Regardless, no one is saying that it doesn’t occur. Hate crime legislation was created to protect certain groups, and while obviously non-whites aren’t prosecuted for hate crimes as whites as often, this is because white people do not need this specific legal protection.

ubersiren's avatar

@EmpressPixie : Hahaha… I’m going to call my buddy and his wife (who are black) and ask them these questions presented in the essay. I think they’ll get a kick out of it.

As a matter of fact I completely disagree with most of that essay. Institutionalized? More like “manufactured.” I do admit that there is a certain degree of white privilege, but I think it’s all illusion. Children aren’t born racist. My son loves all his non-white playmates. We are taught that there are differences. We are taught that American history is a great portion of whites enslaving blacks. Every February, I am made to feel guilty for something I had no hand in. If I had never been force fed that whites are “privileged” then I wouldn’t know the difference! Thanks for making it my fault for race/class/behavior distinction when I am trying to escape that ideology altogether despite our culture, black and white people together fighting so hard to keep segregated. I want to move past this. I want to BE equal and not just “tolerant.” I want people not to see stereotypes. I will always remember the stories of the Civil War and slavery, but I refuse to cram this garbage down my childrens’ throats! I understand that true racism still exists today. Multitudes of white people across America are racist. But that will never go away if I tell my son, “Now see Billy over there with the brown skin? It is thought by many that he doesn’t have as much privilege as you, so it’s your duty as one of the white privileged kids to be sure to give him fair opportunity in the sandbox.” That’s how resentment and segregation starts. If we stop trying to over-correct, I believe everyone can chill the fuck out and live like no race is privileged over another. Period.

tinyfaery's avatar

Let me get out my tiny violin.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@ubersiren, that was a really excellent response.

ubersiren's avatar

@tinyfaery : I don’t know if that was directed to me at all, but I’m not asking for pity, I just want to be left the eff alone already.

tinyfaery's avatar

Nope. It’s not all about you. I would I have directed my comment to you if that were the case.

ubersiren's avatar

Ok, just checking. It was, after all, directly under my response.

galileogirl's avatar

Hate crime laws refer to race not a specific race or majority/minority race

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat3.htm#st

wundayatta's avatar

Did anyone get that link to work? This is what I got when I tried it:

Page Not Found
We cannot locate the page you’re looking for. Please check the address and make sure all letters are lowercased with no spaces. You may also move to a different page by using the links in the menu bar above.

tiffyandthewall's avatar

just as not all hatecrimes against whites are publicized or counted as such, not all hatecrimes against other races are publicized or counted as such. focusing on one race not receiving justice requires you to ignore cases pertaining to other races.

also, perhaps you’d receive more cordial answers from everyone if you didn’t derail your own topic, and then imply that everyone else has turned the topic around.

i know what you mean by your original question, however i think you are rather blindly asserting a case of racism against white people, when that is certainly not always the case.

Crusader's avatar

@ubersiren,
Well articulated, and objective. Taking a position of actual solution-orientation is Not poplular as it does not represent the co-opted versions of extremist ideologies on the right and left, which are both centrist in any case for all intents and purposes, designed to enrich and empower specific demographics, not govern effectively of justly.

Constitutional principles such as Life, are more geared to the wealthy and the ‘minority’ demongraphic,
Liberty, the same, and Happiness, the same. Anyone recognize a pattern here, it is all connected.

This is why there are so many double standards in America today virtually all of which penalize whites, most of which never benifitted from white ‘priviledge’ and never will.

galileogirl's avatar

@Crusader Wow, that seemed more likely to obfuscate than elucidate. Let’s keep it simple. Most crimes that occur with the aggressor being one race and the victim being another race are NOT hate crimes. They are everyday garden variety crimes, The crime must primarily be based on the aggressors intent to harm based on race. So when the white drunk robs the Indian convenience store clerk, that is not a hate crime but Jonathan Fajardo’s ( an Hispanic man with a history of crimes against black people) murder of Cheryl Green (a stranger who was not targeted for any reason besides race) was.

Many crimes may have race, gender, lifestyle or religion hatred as a component but they probably won’t be prosecuted as such unless there is no other reason for the crime.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

“Well articulated, and objective. Taking a position of actual solution-orientation is Not poplular as it does not represent the co-opted versions of extremist ideologies on the right and left, which are both centrist in any case for all intents and purposes, designed to enrich and empower specific demographics, not govern effectively of justly.
Constitutional principles such as Life, are more geared to the wealthy and the ‘minority’ demongraphic,
Liberty, the same, and Happiness, the same. Anyone recognize a pattern here, it is all connected.
This is why there are so many double standards in America today virtually all of which penalize whites, most of which never benifitted from white ‘priviledge’ and never will.”

Unfortunately, this doesn’t mean anything. Your question has been answered and you are trying to further obfuscate a very plain and simple discussion. That whole post was meaningless rhetoric.

justwannaknow's avatar

While working for the Dept. of Corr.I had to take a young african american man to court on a murder charge. It seems he did not like a white man entering his neighborhood so he beat him to death with a baseball bat. He got off! It was determined that the white man must have been trying to commit suicide by entering that area. Of course there was no way he could have gotten lost in an unfamiliar city at night. No hate crime here.

Likeradar's avatar

@justwannaknow what city was this in?

shilolo's avatar

@justwannaknow Is it possible the man was acquitted for other reasons? Perhaps the case against him wasn’t solid? It isn’t like there isn’t a long history of judicial malfeasance when it comes to black-on-white crime.

justwannaknow's avatar

Believe what you want galileogirl but the truth is there. If you have a real good lawyer, the right jury and anything is possible. Look at OJ Simpson! He even filed a civil rights lawsuit ( Not OJ)against the state for violating his parole when they arrested him in the case. Nothing came of it except a big waste of time and tax payer money. Daddy is rich and well connected too.

Likeradar's avatar

@justwannaknow I’m skeptical as well. Can you at least tell us what city/county this happened in, or any details at all?

justwannaknow's avatar

Chicago, Where else other than LA could this happen.

Crusader's avatar

@justwannaknow, @Likerader,

‘Where this happened..?’
Every major metropolis across America, (espiacally Blue states,)
Every Day.

Crusader's avatar

It seems, again, that those who benefit/personally profit from the perception and/or actuality of double=standards pertaining to Hate Crimes in America are in alignmnent here, again. More of my friend Malcolm X’s wisdom

Lynden B. Johnson (signer of the racist affirmative-active legislation while under duress, and probably death threats,)political expediency is the only reason he signed the bill, he Hates us, but want to retain power for him and his party, so he does this, but know, my (black) brothers and sisters, that he does not do this out of love for our people, but from Fear.

More death-threats from the Left. How long must we accept such tyranny? The Southern states were ravaged by war, by a liberal government posing as a conservative. A war for Money and Power. Jim Crow Laws were Not opposed by federal legislation, and most of the country outside of the war-ravaged south, was at least tolerant of other races and responsible about immigration. KKK was a product of decendand of slain fathers, raped mothers, and displaced workers. No federal legislation condeming them by the liberals then.

Why the change now? Why the backlash? Who is really in control? What are their motives? All but (mostly)whites put Race mostly)First, And whites are further penalized with smaller incomes, and reduced opportunities now and in the future, as a result, smaller white families and smaller white population. 80 million abortions and who knows how many reduced family sizes since 1960’s. This is the gradual, inexorable white genocide.

Ivan's avatar

Keep it coming, don’t stop now.

Crusader's avatar

@Ivan

So I take it you are an advocate for reverse racism and double standards? Personally, I would have advocated for a more tolerant America in the 60’s, but now it has become ‘politically expedient’ to promote violence, dishonesty, and Hate-all from the left and hypocrite neo cons.
I do not expect you to have the courage or fortitude to honestly recognize this much less take action to address it.

Ivan's avatar

Please think of Crusader when you see the name of a conservative candidate on your ballot sheet.

Likeradar's avatar

@Crusader I believe I have said it before, and I will say it again now, hopefully for the last time.

I have no intention of getting in a debate with a bigot, especially one who does not back up his opinions with anything resembling a fact. I do not hold so tightly to my views that they cannot be changed, but they certainly will never be altered by someone who spouts racism and fundamentalism with poor spelling and grammar.

Crusader's avatar

@Ivan,
Please think of Crusader when you think of Honesty. I am a-political. The conservative in America are not fiscally moderate enough, liberals are not social conservative enough.

@Likerader,
You are a fan of 1984 and A Brave New World, yes? Where Truth is Fiction, and Ignorance is Strength? And the best way to achieve victory in any discussion is to levy the ‘racist’ charge, warrented or not, coupled with accusations of closed-minded religious intolerance and academic incompetance…You are probably one that scored well in your liberal arts college because you informed your liberal teacher of everything they wanted to hear, disregarding all other possibilities entirely, and were rewarded with a high grade and good job, Yes, the Nazi SS were rewarded for such fundementalism, as are radical Islamic terrorists, you are in good company…

My positions are first and foremost based upon Truth and critical thinking in a contemporary and historical context.

Likeradar's avatar

@Crusader You know what happens when you make assumptions, right? Usually, you make an ass of you and me… this time, it’s just you. You are wrong on every count.

Ivan's avatar

Keep it going, this is good stuff.

Crusader's avatar

@Likeradar,

Ok, catch phrase with sweeping generalization. How am I wrong, (specifically,) on each count?

@Ivan,

Dismissiveness, feigned amusement, similar position adopted by the French royalty not long before the Revolution, (Reign of Terror,) though certainly the execution of the Entire royal class of France was excessive to the extreme, and likely orchestrated by a foreign/internal unscrupulous antaganist group (s.)

Likeradar's avatar

@Crusader I’m not following anymore. See my post about not debating you. Have a nice day, and take this as a win, if you must. I’m done arguing with an internet stranger who has never once typed anything I’ve agreed with on this site. I just realized this is a waste of my time.

Crusader's avatar

@Likeradar

Thank you for your participation. I will not debate with one sho simply states, ‘I am through debating,’

yet the terms of this site, (and real life formal discussions, courtroom etc..generally,) are to verbally engage if one either states an opposing view, or expresses ad hominem. In your case, both. The former in vague terms, the latter in specific.

Yes, we are strangers, you have been debating an internet stranger all along, why you decided to identify me as such now I can only speculate. We can agree on one thing, we do not agree with each other. Sorry if you feel your time has been wasted, I, on the other hand appreciate your time.

Lastly, as there are no financial compensations here, I am without concern of winning or losing. An opportunity to express and support positions is my objective, analogies to historical events are relevant to degrees, and I appreciate the opportunity to address them for historical sake if nothing else.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

You guys who are arguing with @Crusader haven’t yet realized that to do so is impossible. He never makes any sense.

augustlan's avatar

Isn’t experiencing a different reality than all those around you one of the symptoms of insanity? Just sayin’.

Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark, @augustlan

Both of you first expressed dismissive remarks, then feigned amusement. These are similar sentiments expressed by the mob who murdered every man, woman,and child in France who happened to be well off, (not enacting legislation even or directly related to royalty, though they were often very white in complexion,) during the Reign of Terror, rememeber it was Clinton who attacked Koresh compound and murdered allthose children, if they were not white Chistians, you would still hear about it today-as an execution, not a BS necessity…

Do you alll have a textbook you share for your offhand, unspecific, ad hominem responses or what? Or are you, perhaps the same person?

No, I have met too many liberal who parrot the current democratic leaderships ‘talking points’ verbatim to believe this is true. Where are the true Independents among you?

Until the laws of the land are not only articulated, but Enforced,(Hate Crimes, Immigration,) as well as following the constitution, ‘Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit, (not Garauntee-see affirmative action, etc..)of Happiness there is Injustice, and I will never cease to speak for the Truth.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

We can’t argue with your points because your points make no sense, and when they do, are usually flat-out, easily proven wrong. We are reduced to meta-conversing, pointing out your semantic, philosophical and organizational difficulties in the hopes that you will one day be able to make cogent arguments:

So let’s break this down:

“Both of you first expressed dismissive remarks, then feigned amusement. These are similar sentiments expressed by the mob who murdered every man, woman,and child in France who happened to be well off, (not enacting legislation even or directly related to royalty, though they were often very white in complexion,) during the Reign of Terror, rememeber it was Clinton who attacked Koresh compound and murdered allthose children, if they ”

You start out right off the bat with an invalid metaphor as an attempt to discredit your ideological opponents; demonizing us through a bullshit indictment of our worldview. Then you state, in a quite fanatical fashion, that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms are “murderers” for engaging an extremist cult leader and his followers. Everyone agrees that what happened at Waco was a tragedy, but you try and fail to connect it to race to support a weak point.

“Do you alll have a textbook you share for your offhand, unspecific, ad hominem responses or what? Or are you, perhaps the same person?”

Here, you’re throwing out a third-grade insult in Brown-reject English.

No, I have met too many liberal who parrot the current democratic leaderships ‘talking points’ verbatim to believe this is true. Where are the true Independents among you?

You’re the only one here parroting alarmist anti-society rhetoric, cliched buzzwords floating in inchoate arguments.

“Until the laws of the land are not only articulated, but Enforced,(Hate Crimes, Immigration,) as well as following the constitution, ‘Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit, (not Garauntee-see affirmative action, etc..)of Happiness there is Injustice, and I will never cease to speak for the Truth.”

You’ve never read the Constitution, don’t pretend to have done so. You’re trying to argue on constitutional grounds, but in reality the constitution is two things

1. on our side
2. open to interpretation

Your overuse of the capitalized “Truth” is telling.

Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark
Do you need to consult with your racist hypocrite friends in your cabal to arrive at your quasi-logical wholly insubstantial positions on my assertions Q? I seem to recall 40 Jews who allegedly engaged in a renunciation of food until the ‘alarmist anti-society rhetoric’ of Paul was silenced, Paul’s life anyway…

Could it be possible that in this instance 40 or so of you and yours came to a consensus on how to relate yet another disertation of acidic, charater assassination, with the fervant hope that the remaining independent, conscience-minded individuals will agree with your Hate and Hypocristy and see through the illusion, beyond the veil…That is to say the veil is torn now is it not?

If you feel so strongly about logic and secular constitutional principles, try practicing what you preach and embrace athiesm or Greek polythiesm, or does you faith allow for hypocrisy?

As long as you benefit personally from legislation you will support it, I know, money, power, attractive mates…Sure, creat a crisis, sacrifice a few of your own, and maintain a position of increasing power and wealth while be continously the ‘persecuted.’ Very clever. Completed unethical and unprincipled, but clever. You will never convince me of your motives otherwise as long as your values do not include accountability, honesty, and charity at the least-this is only a beginning.

I love all humanity, however, the Love of Money is the Root of All Evil, and most ‘faiths’ are merely a means to an end for money, power, and attractive mates. Most of these ‘faiths’ ennoble a certain race above all others, though if one group wishes to be separated from other groups (groups based upon political expediency,corruption of the compassionate and kind, and promoting wickedness,) and said separatist group is accountable, honest, and charitable, God will not judge them, though the hypocrite decievers will attack them overtly and subtley as they are a threat to their wicked dominion. Forced bussing and the elevation of masogyny and violence to be perceived as noble aspirations as well as dividing the righteous against themselves is the motive of such wicked, self-serving hypocrites.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

I’m not arguing.

NONE OF THAT MADE ANY SENSE.

Response moderated
Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark

‘Do not throw pearls before swine for they will turn and rend you.’
Jesus

quarkquarkquark's avatar

“Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

-Jesus of Nazareth, The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 15, Verses 13 to 14, The New Testament.

Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark

‘Hypocites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘these people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teachings as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Jesus of Nazareth, Matthew, Chp. 15, vrs. 7–8

galileogirl's avatar

I’ll think about that tomorrow

Scarlett O’Hara, Gone With The Wind (now THAT’S a good book!)

Crusader's avatar

@all
Anymore justifications of the persecution and marginalization of whites for the sake of political expediency and personal aggrandizement?

@galileogirl
Yes, good book, the lessons of a spoiled aristocratic girl confronted with total annihilation of everything she knows, her reluctance to accept the horrifying reality results in a catastrophic abandonment and betrayal, probably death.

‘Rhett, please help me!’‘Frankly Scarlett, I don’t give a d..m.’

galileogirl's avatar

I didn’t say she was a good girl, just that it was a good book. And readable in it’s original language, not subject to poor translation by every zealot with a religious axe to grind.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

“persecution and marginalization of whites”

‘nuff said.

tinyfaery's avatar

Where did my violin go?

Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark, @tinyfaery, @galileogirl,

All the trio, the one, two, three punch, well coordinated, bravo! Galio, Yes, we agree it was an informative read, a ‘good’ book. And what in you convoluted mind makes you believe that your quote is any less of a poor translation and originating from any less of a zealous mind with a political axe to grind, hmm?

‘Remove the timber from your own eye, before you attempt to remove the splinter from your brothers eye…’ Jesus

Quark and Tiny,

Ah yes, dissmissiveness followed by feigned amusement, again! I am hardly surprised, yet this time from two different users…Nice tactic. Although I have some news for you, life is not just about tactics, and chess positioning, though this is important knowledge, certainly, coupled with the descernment of the holy ghost and faith that Jesus is the son of god and man you and living righteously, well, now we are Really on to something! : )

Anyway, I doubt either of you have ever attended school with predominantly those of an exclusive racial group, (all but whites,)and/or felt the subtle dehumanization and/or overt hostility of such groups, now, money and/or private schools insure that 6 degrees of (more like 90) separation.

So keep promoting hate and divisiveness, most of the whites are retired, right, the neo-cons have them terrified about losing their benefits. You win. You have the money, the jobs, the opportunities, the time…the youth…Not without underhanded tactics, not without demeaning and dehumanizing measures, not without causualties, this is war, right? All is fair in love and war, those you cannot co-opt, you simply disenfranchise in this war, a war of opportunity. Enjoy the profits from your ill-gotten gains. They are temporary, and temporal. God knows our hearts.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

How do you know we’re white?

Crusader's avatar

Never said you were.

galileogirl's avatar

“Why do you people call yourselves white when you are really pink?” Denzel Washington as Stephen Biko-Cry Freedom

A really great movie based on the writing of Donald Woods.

1st annual Fluther quote smackdown

BBQsomeCows's avatar

It is racist.

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