Color me naive... Am I the last person in the world to discover that Wonder Woman is a lesbian? And now Batwoman too?

Of course they are lesbos you silly willy. By the way, what shade is naive? tan? Green?

In current culture their sexuality is open for debate. In the culture that created them, remember the word “gay” used to mean happy.

I’m naive too apparently. I didn’t know that either. Are all members of the Justice League of America light in the loafers?

I don’t read enough comics to make an informed opinion of how I feel about the sexual proclivities of superheroes. All I know is, with all those special powers and talents, they had better be careful when doing the wild thing amongst themselves or they’re going to hurt each other. Wait, what if they used their skills on each other for some kind of weird and hedonistic foreplay? That would be okay, right?

I thought bat woman was the daughter of commisioner gordon who was shot by the joker, is paralized and is now called the orical and was dating the first robin who was now night wing

@Zendo

Envy is Green. Coward ness Yellow. Anger Red, Sadness Blue, Evil Black…

NaiveTAY’...? White perhaps…

@Bri_L

Should we tell Robin (Night Wing)...? Or just let him figure it out on his own?

Neither one was originally intended to be lesbian.

I think comic book writers—any writer—can do whatever they like with the sexuality of their characters. It does not make sense to have to write around it.

Since the percentage of gays in the population is estimated at between 3 and 8 % of both sexes (according to the National Gay and lesbian Task Force), it does not really make sense to me to retrofit iconic heroines.

On the other hand, if lesbian women want to make them lesbian in their own writings and discussions and minds, I don’t care.

@Marina

Yeah, I guess so. It just caught me by surprise…

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – maybe it’s the nest batwomen just like there are new robins

It doesn’t bother me a bit. I think it would be a great way to teach tolerance.

@Bri_L

Yes the Bat Woman was a limited run special universe… Not the actual historical Bat Woman. And although comics are a fantastic medium for teaching tolerance, I somehow feel that history is being rewritten to serve a particular agenda. The same message could be expressed just as effectively by creating an entirely new character. I know they’re just cartoons, but I don’t like it when history gets hijacked.

cartoons?
if they are….why worry about it

@cyndihugs

For the reasons I mentioned to Bri L. Although cartoons, they are historical figures every bit as much as the Brothers Grim, or Apollo, or Santa Claus. It’s a shame to change the identity of any established figure in order to serve a predetermined purpose. Those figures were new once… It’s quite acceptable to create new icons to send any message you want.

Geico does it all the time.

@Bri_L @cyndihugs

How would you feel if Ronald McDonald suddenly announced he was gay?

I suppose this is impossible to tell unless their creators tell us they meant them to be queer…all else is speculation…point is…why care at all what their sexuality is..

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Well, because their creators want us to care about it. Read the Bat Woman interview.

I think strong independent women are always suspects for lesbianism. The (male) world has not yet evolved enough to deal with that sort of strength in a “normal” woman so they must be!

@rooeytoo

Sure, agreed… Wonder Woman is suspect. Changing Bat Woman is in your face propaganda. Nothing suspect about it at all.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Ronald McDonald is a pedophile. No if ands or buts.

so then she’s a lesbian
good
not enough of that depicted

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Come on Simone… Why does lesbian deserve the tag of good, or bad, or anything at all besides lesbian? And how much depiction is enough or too little of lesbianism?

Don’t get mad at me girlfriend… You can state a personal opinion around me all you want…

The main question here revolves around taking established historical figures and using their fame to promote a very specific agenda. Why not create an entirely new figure to support a cause an not ride the back of some already well noted legacy?

Bat Woman’s sexual identity was never an issue before now. Why make it one now unless a specific group of people want to use her platform to change perceptions?

I say get your own super heroine. It’s not that hard… just be truly creative on your own.

Will any honor be found in a heterosexual who claims heterosexuality upon a historical figure who is commonly thought of as being homosexual… yet their true sexuality is only suspect, yet quite unknown?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
okay, don’t call me girlfriend. first.
second. I am not mad at you.
I don’t believe in honor as a concept so that didn’t enter my thoughts on this matter. I don’t care if batwoman is or is not a lesbian but I don’t get why the possibility of her being one is so maddening to you.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I’m concerned whenever a historical figure is hijacked to promote a personal agenda. Especially when that figure had no previous inclination to express their position on the topic either way.

Bat Woman’s sexuality obviously concerned someone else before it concerned me. If they have a right to use her fame to promote a specific cause, then I have the right to ask why they couldn’t just create a new character to promote the same cause.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
it is not hijacked
if not everyone believes it
people have been saying all kinds of things about Alexander or Lincoln or whatever…
so what..we can’t prove it either way

I know i mean what the fuck! you cant go changing some story line. Everything must be static in comic books. Once something happens its permanent…....

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

Yes I understand. Real human figures can be debated through historical reference. They are impossible to create anew as they have accomplished real things in the real world.

But comic characters can be created anew. I feel the same way about Bat Woman as I do about Santa, Buggs Bunny, Speed Racer, the Boogie Man, and Mickey Mouse. Their identities have nothing to do with sexual orientation whatsoever. To have the character openly come out and promote a stance on sexuality is little more than propaganda from a specific group to promote a specific idealism.

If that group has enough faith in their own idealism, then they should be able to promote it with their own creative endeavors. But to do it in this way is subversive and unwarranted.

@uberbatman

What purpose does it serve the character of Bat Woman to become a lesbian? I know the purpose it serves the authors… but how does it make any Bat Woman story line more appealing to the end reader?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies that whole tolerance thing as stated above. So friggin what they used an existing character, its only one story arc of the many of that same character. If you read comics youd know what holds true in one doesnt mean shit in another.

OMG theyre pushing an agenda…... of acceptance. THE HORRORS!!!

Just because they do’t have any real boyfriends does not make Wondr Woman or Batswoman lesbos, dude!

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – You mean he isn’t?

I agree with you. Why re write the character. There are many robins. I just finished one series that had a girl robin. Just have a new bat girl.

@Bri_L

WOW! A girl Robin? Was she a companion character to the boy Robin like Super Girl to Super Man… or did she actually replace the male character as female like Starbuck from the original Battlestar Gallactica to the new one?

Oh and most importantly… Was her character used to promote any sort of sexual identity agenda?

@Zendo

They don’t need boyfriends regardless of their sexual identity. They need writers and artists. They have determined Bat Woman as specifically lesbian, not my perception of her. They didn’t need to determine her as specifically heterosexual, why should they now promote her as specifically lesbian?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – No, in the series batman was old and had retired. He came out of retirement because it hit the fan. She became his robin. Absolutely no sexual identity agenda. None. Zip. Except her stupid hair cut, but that is just me.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies How is it this question is okay, but my question about forgetting what I should be doing at 4:20 doesn’t meet the mods high standards?

http://www.fluther.com/edit/

@Bri_L i am reading that RIGHT NOW how strange.

@Zendo stop bitching and contact the mods….

@uberbatman

Please try not to get fanatical with “OMG, The HORRORS”. It’s almost like putting words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

Could the writers have promoted the same tolerance message without accessing the popularity of an already established figure? Would the writers be treading on solid ground if they publicly declared other super heroes as specifically heterosexual?

@uberbatman – SHIT! I am sorry. I hope I didn’t ruin anything for you!!! I am so so so so sorry!

@uberbatman bite me dude…:)

@Zendo

I’m not quite sure what your point is in listing my questions that the mods have previously pulled. Not really sure how you got access to that part of my account either.

Would you please explain your intentions?

Wow. this could be a really cool discussion if someone would just take it to the mods like they were supposed to and quit wasting the threads time! FLAG!

@Bri_L not at all. Im about 150 pages into it.

@Zendo

I guess I should be thanking you for giving these questions a second life. And also thanking you for exposing a weakness to everyones account.

You are to be commended! Nicely done…

@realize

What? You think I am in your account ? Try to read posts more closely dude. P.S., how is ST.L?

[Mod says]: If you have a specific concern about one of your questions, please contact the mods. Otherwise, post here only if you have something to say that is relevant to the discussion.

Also, the edit page always takes you to whatever Qs you have in editing. So it takes him to his and you to yours.

@EmpressPixie

Thanks for the clarification.

@Zendo

ST.L is fine and thank you for asking. We’ve been pleasantly blessed with extremely vibrant whether as of late. The grass is green, the air is clean, and the Coi are especially feisty this year.

Now if you would please answer my unanswered question to you.

They didn’t need to determine her as specifically heterosexual, why should they now promote her as specifically lesbian?

Wonder Woman? The Queen of the Amazon?
She could really work that bullwhip, too. Damn, I guess it was too good to be true.

Next, they will change the mythology of Superman. His planet didn’t really explode. His parents just sent him a safe distance from Uncle Ernie. Oddly, Superman wears Uncle Ernie’s leotards.

@filmfann

OH SHIT! Hhhahahahahaahhhaahhhhhaaaaa…

”... a safe distance from Uncle Ernie…”

hhhahahhaHHHjjahhahahaaaahhhhaha

Wow you guys take this whole Batwoman being gay a little bit too far! Who really really REALLY cares? Maybe people who are homophobic perhaps? All the other comic book characters are “straight.” Big woop! Maybe Batwoman had a mid life crisis and turned “to the dark side” after her one true love died! Maybe she’s been hiding it from us all along! gasp Heaven forbidden! If its that horrifying to you that she might be gay, don’t read about her character anymore! Or just read about her, but by a different writer! It’s called evolving, changing, growing. Happens all the time!
Who was it that said that famous quote about people being doomed to repeat the past if they dont learn from it? I mean since we’re talking about historical figures and all! We evolve, we grow, we accept.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies In the beginning, Wonder Woman’s alter ego was Dianna Prince, and she was always hanging out with her boyfriend…she always needed to come up with excuses to ditch him to make rescues.

Batgirl digs Robin, and Catwoman is (Purrrrrr) making it with Batman. Wassup wid alla da lesbo talk?

Just so we’re clear:

Barbara Gordon = Batgirl (now Oracle). Paralyzed at the hands of the Joker. Straight. Dated Dick Grayson (original Robin, then Nightwing, now Batman).

Batwoman = Kathy Kane. Originally created in 1956, ironically, as a love interest for Batman to quell fears of homosexual relations between him and Robin (as asserted in the book, “Seduction of the Innocent”) She disapeared after only a few appearences and was reintroduced in 2006 as a lesbian.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: She is, by no means, an iconic character whose history was altered to push a specific agenda. Nice try though.

Furthermore, the debate about Wonder Woman is out of school as she has always been portrayed in the comics as dating men, even recently.

Also: Marvel Comics revealed that Northstar (a member of Alpha Flight) was gay years ago. He simply came out of the closet. As people do in real life.

Simply put, it’s not an agenda. It may be a lifestyle. But ultimately it’s someone’s life. Like all works of fiction, comics strive to represent all sorts of real lives.

I would suggest consulting the source material before you start chomping at the bit about something you don’t fully understand.

@Elerie said:

“Who really really REALLY cares?”

Apparently the new Bat Woman writers really really care. And I’d doubt if they’re homophobic. And since when are people accused of homophobia because they question the promotion of a specific sexual identity? Shall we specifically promote super hetero as well?

Please refrain from fanatical “gasp Heaven forbidden”. It seemingly puts words in my mouth and only serves to promote heterophobia.

@Zendo said:
“Wassup wid alla da lesbo talk?”

That’s exactly what I’d like to know. I didn’t change the established character of a famous heroine to specifically promote sexual identity issues. Someone else did.

@cprevite

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Your comments are sound and give me good perspective to consider. Whether I fully understand it or not, the source material does seem to speak for itself as an outlet for propaganda rather than representing “all sorts of real lives”. The platform is specifically being used to voice out on sexual identity issues, and not rather to specifically improve the character. I refer you to the original quote:

”“The Powers That Be are pretty good these days about letting you choose to make a character of your own design homosexual or bisexual, but the closer you get to an established character, the harder it becomes,” Grayson said. “And although I sympathize with that decision in many respects—it’s not fair to retcon an established character just to make a socio-political point—the problem with that policy is that, for the sexual identity issue to have weight in the world of superhero icons, the so-identified character has to be an icon.”
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=10831

My right to question this remains intact. Shifting the sexual identity of Bat Woman is considered a victory platform for promoting a specific message with more intensity than would have been considered previously possible (as the writer says) than if she, ”...choose to make a character of your own design homosexual or bisexual…”

If she thinks “it’s not fair to retcon an established character just to make a socio-political point”

Then why is she doing it to make her point?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies one small point: you wrote “I feel the same way about Bat Woman as I do about Santa, Buggs Bunny, Speed Racer, the Boogie Man, and Mickey Mouse.” I find that a bit surprising – Batwoman and Wonder Woman are written as more human, complex characters than any of the others you mentioned. So (much more than the other examples you gave) her identity can have something to do with her sexual orientation – just like most any other cartoon (or novel, or etc.) character that is meant to approximate real people with multi-dimensional personalities.

Also, I thought you might find it interesting that Patti (on the Simpsons) has been gay pretty much all along, but only came out of the closet recently (18th season maybe). And the previously-unspoken sexual tension between Lenny and Carl was first mentioned in that same episode, I think.

Edit: you may also be interested in Episodes 14 and 15 of Bruce Timm’s Justice League animated series, titled “Fury”, where a rogue Amazonian sets out to kill all the world’s men. There is a scene where Wonder Woman says to Hawkgirl that she thinks a world with only women might be a good thing. Hawgirl looks at her, sniffs, and says “Don’t knock it till you try it.” Wonder Woman looks thoughtful.

Wonder Woman is not a lesbian. But, she did come from an island of women, where there was a great mistrust in men. They were called Amazons, right? What was going on on that island with no men? I think the ghost of homosexuality (where gay is implied but not explicitly stated, or with very subtle images) ran through her mythography.

Batwoman is not a lesbian. At least I can’t think of any gay subtext. But then I know very little about Batman.

You’re post is the first time I heard this so I, not you, must be the last person in the world.
Rats! All this time I thought I had a chance.
(I always thought Captain American and Wonder Woman would make a nice couple. I wonder what would they wear to Halloween Parties?)

@wildpotato

I lost track of the Simpsons years ago. That seems like a reasonable development to have a character come out… much more in line with real world, if that’s the purpose.

My son told me about a Family Guy episode where they were taken to the future and Meg had found lesbianism as well… Another viable development.

I will allow Boogie Man and Santa to drop from my list, but Buggs, Speed and Mickey are all direct reflections of human persona. Developing them could be viewed as a natural evolution of the character… but rewriting them altogether… to take advantage of their popularity is questionable.

I do get your point though. Well said.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: OK, let me try this another way.

“Whether I fully understand it or not, the source material does seem to speak for itself as an outlet for propaganda rather than representing “all sorts of real lives”.”
Have you actually read the comics you are referencing?

“The platform is specifically being used to voice out on sexual identity issues, and not rather to specifically improve the character.”
In the example of Bat Woman, yes, that may be true (more on this later); but comic book authors and publishers use the hundreds of different characters and titles to “voice out” on many different subjects. Sexual identity is by far the least of them. You would know this if you actually read them. Also, it is clearly your opinion that revealing a character to be gay does not “improve their character”. If it serves the story, it very well may improve their character. Why do you assume being gay degrades their character?

“I refer you to the original quote”
There’s no need to refer me the article again. I have been reading CBR (as well as iFanboy, Word Balloon, Wizard, and Newsarama) since it’s initial launch. I read the article you quote when it was originally published in 2007.

As for “Shifting the sexual identity of Bat Woman” and “retcon(ing) an established character”, let me explain it this way:

Comic book continuity, as a matter of necessity, always changes from generation to generation. Many of the iconic characters have been around for decades. Changing the continuity of the character or their origin happens pretty regularly and “retcons” are very common. There is a need to update the characters to appeal to the folks reading them now. John Byrne famously rewrote Superman’s origin in the 1980’s. He changed it so Superman was the sole survivor or the exploded Krypton. So instantly gone were Supergirl ad the (silly) Super Pets. Was he “voicing out” on issues orphanage? No it was a plot point. And guess what? A few years later, another writer came along and changed it again. Happens all the time. Iron Man was originally established during the Vietnam War. It was later changed to the Gulf War and later still to some vague middle-east conflict. Was Marvel pushing their liberal anti-vietnam bias?

Furthermore, many personality traits and lifestyle choices are often “revealed” about a character that has been around for a while. Religion is a popular subject with comic book writers. Most characters were not created with a religion in mind, but over the years it has been revealed that Nightcrawler (of the X-Men) is Christian and studied for the priesthood and Daredevil is Catholic (his mother later became a nun even). Were these story points pushing a religious agenda?

In truth, their are multiple existing comic book continuities. There are characters that have been around for all of them. There are the Golden Age (40’s & 50’s), the Silver Age (60’s & 70’s), the Bronze Age (80’s & 90’s) and now (the Modern Age). NOTE: The dates are rounded off for ease of use.

In the Golden Age, for example, Captain America was running around killing Nazis, shooting a machine gun and referring to German’s as “krauts”. Today’s Captain America still served in WWII, but huge chunks of his original personality have been “retconned” over the years to fit the times.

As for Bat Woman (Kathy Kane): As I stated earlier, she is a completely different character from Bat Girl (Barbara Gordon). Bat Girl is and iconic established character that has lasted through all the various ages. She is straight. Bat Woman was introduced in the fifties (Golden Age) as a love interest to Batman (to ward off accusations of homosexuality between Batman and Robin as stated in the book Seduction of the Innocent). She did not take off as a character and disappeared almost immediately.

Years later (2006) DC comics decides they would like an openly lesbian character on their roster. Devin Grayson decides to use the long-forgotten Bat Woman character as her template for the story. She is not and iconic, “established character“nor is she a “famous heroine”. She is a d-list character at best. It was practically the same as creating a brand new character (as you suggest) as about .5% of the comic book reading population had ever heard of her.

As Marina stated above, about 3 to 5% of the real-world population is gay. I think it’s only fitting that comic book universe populations reflect that.

If you would like to become better informed on the subject from the actual published material, I’d be happy to recommend some really good collections.

@cprevite

Hey thanks for the history lesson. It clears up a lot. The Bat Girl/Woman designation speaks clearly enough to the issue for me. Your input is valued.

@tinyfaery

Interesting perspective “the gay ghost”. You may have reached a common ground on the Wonder Woman debate… (of which I’m new to).

The Bat Woman character, as cprevite points out, is a completely different person than the commonly associated Bat Girl character. News to me, and though it does clear the air, associations are made nonetheless by default for the novice reader to deal with on their own.

It’s good to have the enthusiast perspective like cprevite to educate. Yet the writer clearly seeks to use the name association to promote a cause. I wonder if most novice’s can gather the difference. I certainly didn’t.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: Thank you. And you may be happy to know that the new Bat Woman only appeared prominently in the limited weekly series 52.

Plans for an ongoing series with her have been shelved. She may continue to pop up as a supporting character, but it’s doubtful she’ll rise above that to “iconic” any time soon.

@Elerie – discussing it doesn’t make us homophobics. Discussing it is just what branched out of the quesiton.

@wildpotato – hawkgirl is at least bi then because she is, or was at one time, with the green arrows son, or something like that.

@Bri_L Dang, I need to get better about anticipating altrenate interpretations of my answers so I can clarify them to begin with In that scene, Hawkgirl was telling Wonder Woman to try sleeping with men before she starts calling them good-for-nothing :) You are right abut Hawkgirl and the Green Lantern – their son’s name is Warhawk.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies in the Family Guy episode your son told you about, Meg has actually become a post-op transsexual. His family rolls their eyes when he insists on being called “he.” There is also a current-day episode where Meg thinks she might be gay, but her mom says something along the lines of, “Meg, if you were gay, I would fully support you. But I know you, and you’re not gay. You’re trying to do this to fit into a group, and because you’re not attractive to men.” So Meg’s sexuality is open to considerable debate.

On second thought, you’re right about Bugs – even in classic Looney Tunes episodes, he plays with the idea of non-heterosexual identity by crossdressing to fool Elmer Fudd. And I can see how one could make an argument for Speed and Mickey as characters that can be fleshed out – in a recent episode of Southpark, they made Mickey into an evil corporate businessman.

@wildpotato

W8t a second! You think Speed could be fleshed out as gay? Possibly? Don’t you think Racer X would fit that position a bit more elegantly? Speed’s just a somewhat fem teenager, but I never imagined him as gay… You really think?

Mickey as the corporate hooligan… oh yeah that’s perfect and very in line with the current banking scandals. I can totally see it.

And Buggs? I’ve always viewed him as the epitome of a hetero who is so completely comfortable with his hetero identity that he doesn’t mind cross dressing. I know I’ve had a lot of fun with that myself at times…

@wildpotato – Love your name by the way. Hehe. Wildpotato. I see. I didn’t know he was their son. I was thinking of Green lanturn’s Ward who got busy with her.

Poison Ivy and Harely Quinn. Definitely lesbian lovers.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I actually don’t know Speed that well; only watched five episodes or so. But I have noticed that many male characters in animes are a bit more effeminate (or, conversely, overly masculine). I never imagined Speed as gay, but I’m sure there’s some fanfic writer out there who has. It’s just, he is enough of a person to be imagined as such by someone, I would think.

Bugs is an interesting case. Check out this Google Scholar search. The first article, “The Signifying Rabbit” looks pretty interesting, but you may be stymied by the need for JSTOR access to look at it.

@Bri_L Thanks! It’s ‘cause I’m underground. :)

@uberbatman absolutely!

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
I honestly wouldn’t mind…I don’t like McDonalds!

@Bri_L I wasn’t saying that you’re homophobic because you’re discussing it. I was addressing those people who are adamantly opposed to having a gay character as a hero or heroine.

@Elerie – Please accept my apologies. I am sorry. I misunderstood your post.

I always say I don’t know why Wonder Woman left the island.

@JLeslie – as in don’t understand?

@Bri_L I mean didn’t wonder woman live on Amazon Island, or something like that? An island of women, and every so often men would come by. I would love to have an island with all of my girlfriends. I’m not gay, but it sounds really good to me. So she leaves that paradise to help fight crime during a war or something like that?? I watched the series so long ago, I can barely remember. If I were her I never would have left.

I wasn’t sure if you meant “If I were on an island of all woman I wouldn’t want to leave”. I didn’t want to assume you were making that statement as a guy or a girl serious or joking or what ever, you know?

In the comic I believe she secretly takes part in a competition to be their representative to the outside world.

That is about all I know.

i didn’t know either!
but i did know about batman and robin. you might be the last to know about that one.