Are you "disturbed, personally" by this atheist bus advertisement?

Not any more than any other religious based ad does.

better than “Don’t believe in God? Enjoy burning in HELL!”
I’m sure the good governor would applaud such an ad.

Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. If atheists want to connect with one another let them. Maybe it will keep them busy.

It doesn’t affect the great cosmic flow.

No… I don’t find this disturbing at all. Not sure why anyone would. It is obviously a true statement! I don’t see why atheists shouldn’t be able to advertise a gathering point, but religious people seem to have an inherent right to advertise their churches.

I think it’s long overdue

No, we have freedom of speech in this country. It was actually more tasteful than I thought it was going to be.

@chyna

Well free speech allows us to say offensive and disturbing things too, so that doesn’t have much to do with it.

No more than I am when I see McCane/Palin bumperstickers.

What disturbs me however is that you can’t publicly voice support for atheism, even in the slightest way possible, without causing an outrage among the predominantly christian populace. When it comes to religion, freedom of speech is a myth.

Great idea in a time of more and more religous radicalism… in the christiand and the muslim-world… so: NO as an answer to your question. :)

I don’t see what’s so disturbing about it.

I say Kudos to the atheists for expressing themselves.

We have crazy Christains staging protests, showing pictures of dead babies, yelling at people and scaring them, and shooting people at abortion clincs…all in the name of their beliefs. You see one atheist bumper sticker and freak out? Wow.

Nope, not offended or disturbed. Supportive would be the word for my feelings.

@Ivan I also answered the question by saying I thought it was more tasteful than I would have imagined.

Just sad
I’ve also recently seen a few scientology commercials smh

Actually, I think it is clever. I think putting up roadside billboards hawking churches like fast food restaurants and spiritual beliefs like Burma Shave is a tacky. (For everybody under 50, it is a mid-20th century reference) This is a response to the religious sentiment that by believing in God means you are not alone.

This ad shows an unexpected sense of humor seldom seen in athiest media.

@Facade

It’s sad that atheists exist?

What about this would disturb anyone?

As an agnostic, I swear to God that atheist advertisement does not disturb me personally – so help me Allah.

No, but I’m disturbed (as a Christian) by the ugly response I’m sure many other Christians will have towards this.

Wait a second, why should this offend anyone? Hasn’t anyone seen the million of Jesus billboards in the middle of the Midwest? I’m offended!

Okay. Maybe I am missing something.

I saw a link yesterday of stupid billboards next to each other. Most of them involved Jesus and strip clubs. I thought they were photoshopped.

I have never seen a “Jesus Saves” billboard. Is this common outside of the Pacific North West?

And if they are common how do you keep from burning them down? read the monkey wrench gang

Very common in the midwest.

@johnpowell I haven’t seen them in the South East.

That is scary. Religion is personal.

I think that is the main thing that turned me off. I had some people pushing it on me. I was 15 and didn’t like being told what to do or think. So I rejected it.

But now my religion is science so I don’t actually need religion.

@johnpowell They were interspersed in Arizona, too, so not only in the Midwest.

I haven;t driven across the country in many years but when we used to there were lots of billboards advertising churches with Jesus saves and you are not alone messages. I was driving from Kilgore Texas to Camden Arkansas in 2002 and as I drove through Hope Arkansas, there was a veritable wall of billboards (more than I had ever seen before). about equally divided between religious messages, Bill Clinton’s childhood home and the Waffle House. That’s what I love about the South.

Seems pretty benign to me. Why would anyone ne offended? Many people don’t believe in a god. BFD. Get used to it.

Of course not. It’s not even trying to convert people like religious advertisements do, it is simply offering support for those who have converted on their own.

I think it might simply be too complex for most fundies to figure out, what with the contraction in the first part. Okay, I am being facetious.

I live in the Midwest and the Christian Reich is plenty strong around here. The GAWD billboards are so common I usually tune them out as visual clutter. Governor Culver is a Democrat and a Christian, and also a politician. He knows that if he pisses off his base he may not get a second term. He is also losing popularity points and will do anything to get the numbers back up. Some of his detractors refer to him as a Fascist.

I like how in the article the Bus Advertising Company stated the ads were not approved and placed on the busses by mistake. If that isn’t ‘after the fact damage control’ I’ll kiss your ass at high noon on Main Street.

Religion has a firm grip on everybody’s mind in the Midwest, and to proclaim your lack of a belief in the Middle Eastern Bronze Age gods of the Bible is to encourage the wrath of the fundamentalists that proclaim god is love, but also state that if you choose not to believe you will burn in Hay-ull!

bunch of hypocritical fucks!

@evelyns_pet_zebra That’s why I wasn’t scared to come out to my mother as bisexual, but the atheist thing was a huge deal. All praise the Jesus-lovers who control the young and naive minds!

The funny thing is, Culver is the first Democratic Iowa governor since 1937. If he really fucks it up, it might be centuries before IOWA elects another democrat.

and just for your information, IOWA stands for Idiots Out Wandering Around.

No, it doesn’t bother me at all and I’m not sure why it would. There are religious billboards all over the place. Remember these?

No problem at all. The world needs a little balance.

Christians could run the exact same ad, referring to:
“You are not alone”
as God is with you whether you believe in him or not.

Leave the wording exactly the same, but change the meaning and Atheists would be just as offended as the Christians are.

My perspective on all billboards is showing signs of change, wondering if they should all be banned when addressing a persons personal belief structure. Selling Pepsi is one thing, selling a belief system is something quite entirely different.

No I’m not ready to advocate banning all belief system billboards. I only wish to point out that slogans, one liners, and ad/hoc may be effective for selling dog food and pantyhose, but to use these tactics for selling a believe system seems more in line with mental/spiritual confrontation. These notions are worthy of a bit more consideration than everyday consumerism.

Nope, doesn’t offend me at all, and I’m a Christian. People are entitled to their opinions, and our society works best when there’s a free flow of information in the marketplace of ideas. Suppress atheists and their ideas, and you leave the door open to suppressing any other idea that might seem “offensive.” Once you do that, we start looking more like a totalitarian society than a democratic one. Free speech, totally.

Again, this is not a free speech issue. I can be offended by something that someone has the right to say. This is an issue about whether you are offended by the message, not whether the message should be repressed.

@Ivan You are making the answers to this question to conform to EXACTLY what you want, no deviating by talking about freedom of speech. When you ask questions on fluther you need to be open enough to expect some deviations. Chill.

I want people to understand what the question was asking. I thought I was very careful to word the question in a way that would not be misunderstood. In these types of questions, people like to talk about everything but the actual topic at hand. Regardless, the comment “I’m not offended because it’s free speech” makes absolutely no sense in the first place.

Apparently it makes sense to everyone but you. Let people answer the way they want to without telling them what they can and cannot say.

Ivan has the right to clarify his intentions for this question.

Please explain how the legality of a statement automatically makes it inoffensive.

My natural inclination is to be offended because a quick one liner is inappropriate to challenge a belief system. Reason reminds me that the statement is not what I find offensive. The offense occurs when the subject is brought up without the due respect for intelligent discussion with the proper platform for debate and rebuttal. Anything less is a cheap jab.

Ah, but there goes my pride again. Such an ugly part of me, refusing to accept that this particular billboard was never directed at the Theist in the first place. It’s no different than a Real Estate billboard being offensive to someone who isn’t looking to buy a home.

My tail rests quietly, tucked under my legs in shame.

It is very close to a Christian ad I’ve seen.

Don’t believe in God, better pray you’re right…

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I dont think that its even “challenging” a belief system, it just says there are other atheists and is advertising their atheist.. “club”? (is that the right term?) It would be the equivalent of a ad declaring “there are Christians” or “monotheism exists!”

@benjaminlevi

I think you just gave me a great idea for an ad campaign. “Atheists exist!” I wonder what the reaction would be.

I don’t have a problem with that ad at all. It is really a rather supportive piece, and certainly doesn’t take any pot shots at anyone.

I don’t get offended by too many ads, but I do get tired of explaining to my kids why my kids aren’t allowed to drink Monster, or why guys who sit around saying Whassup aren’t displaying their intelligence, or even what that mime is doing.

I don’t really like billboards in general, and I really dislike ones with mis-spellings.

@Ivan It would be nice to get politicians to actually say “your existence offends us”. They imply that already but if we got them to say it in those words it would only lose them support. We can use their own bigotry against them!

why in the world would i be offended that there’s a sign simply acknowledging atheism’s existence? i’m not insulted when i see ads for churches.

i’m more offended that they took down the ad because because it the governor’s panties in a bunch.

i cant see ever getting offended by a religious ad. i can see being disturbed that they took it down. what a crummy governor. religion is crazy, i dont like it.

there’s a guy a few streets away from me who painted “Repent to Christ Jesus.” painted across his barn… never heard anyone really complain about that my entire life.

@benjaminlevi

Yeah that’s what I said Benjamin. Read my entire comment and I think we’ll find accord. Thanks for the confirmation though.

@Ivan

That is a good campaign idea… “Atheists Exist!”

How about expanding it to “Atheists Exist!... Thank God!”

Yes? No?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
ah no. that would create riots in the streets.

@ragingloli

Just a thought…

how about a poster depicting Odin on Sleipnir, with the accompanying text “Want into Valhalla? WORSHIP ODIN!”

what america needs is some good competition. who could be better for that than the father of all gods?

great Odin’s Raven!

@ragingloli

I’ve already contracted Sleipnir as mascot for my new line of microwave breakfast cereals for the kids.

“Odin’s Oatmeal”

TV commercial starts with a mock Quaker Oats guy hangin’ with the kids, until Sleipnir lands a god sized pooh on his head while screaming the slogan… “GAAWWWD DANG!”

Kids are gonna love it!

I’m not disturbed by it. Someone else’s theory on religion doesn’t affect my own.

I guess the only reason it would disturb me (if you can even call it that) is because it’s a negative suggestion about something I care about. A poor example would be (forgive me, I’m sleepy) if the bus ad claimed that my mother is stupid. I wouldn’t like the fact that someone said something negative about someone I love, but just because the ad claims it doesn’t make my mother stupid in reality. So it wouldn’t “disturb” me, because I regard it as untrue.

@BBSDTfamily

But this particular sign is not untrue. It is very true that Atheists are not alone. This sign has nothing to do with Theism whatsoever. Thus it attacks or insults nothing at all.

Not a bit. I am also not offended by the billboard a block from my house that reads “Shock your mama. Go to Church!”.

Nope, I love them. I saw them here in Ottawa awhile ago and was happy.

That said, some stupid city council members DID try to block it, but their baseless objections were completely inappropriate and thus they had no effect.

@BBSDTfamily I dont think it says your religion is stupid any more than a poster advertising a different religion.

In order to appreciate the billboard, you have to have seen the “christian” version and have a sense of humor. The people who are affronted or ‘disturbed’ by something like this usually have a very narrow world view and no appreciation for humor.

I’m disturbed that there are people this disturbs. Sometimes I feel parts of this country are sliding backwards. I think DEVO may have had it right.

@AstroChuck Like many religions, Christianity wants to save EVERYONE, so this sign is an affront to that, since it encourages people to have no faith.
Personally, I want to save everyone, but I don’t want to have Christianity shoved down peoples throats. “If they don’t want it, it’s their loss” is my point of view.

@filmfann- It’s an affront to nothing. It promotes nothing. It simply states that if you don’t believe, you aren’t alone. I see this as nothing but a positive message.

@AstroChuck Exactly. I mean really, what could they post in response to this? “You are the ONLY person who doesn’t believe in god, you godless heathen!”

First off, I am an Atheist.

I don’t think that they offend or should offend. They are simply offering a viewpoint. I don’t really get offended/disturbed over anything, but I see worse things coming from the religious communities all the time.

@filmfann But it doesn’t ‘encourage people to have no faith’ at all. It’s not saying “Hey, you should become an atheist!” It’s more like “If you are an atheist, here’s how to find other people like you.”

@AstroChuck Don’t worry the only parts of thus country in danger of sliding backward is the West Coast and it has nothing to do with billboards. It has everything to do with God’s sense of humor.

@galileogirl- You are telling me not to worry? I live on the west coast! Oh God!

@BBSDTfamily , @filmfann

The ad says absolutely nothing about religion, God, Christianity, you, your mother, or anything else that you have claimed. The ad simply acknowledges the existence of atheists. If the existence of atheists is somehow an affront to your personal beliefs, that is your problem, not the atheists’.

@Ivan
only until they come for us atheists with shotguns and pitchforks.

That seems very passive, almost like a dating website billboard. It doesn’t offend me the least bit, nor should it.

There’s billboards around here that read “You NEED God”......

Funny how people dont throw bitch fits when its the other way around. Oh wait, thats because atheists arent easily offended.

@J0E

Isn’t Atheists dating Atheists the only way to make more of them? How offensive!

I didn’t say it was a dating website, I said it was like a dating website, and since when are beliefs genetic?

I’m not offended by it. I grew up in Utah, which is 95% LDS, but somehow I managed to stay pretty level headed about religion.

There will never ever in a million years be a time when everyone agrees on God. Never. As nice as it would be, it will never happen. So I think everyone should respect other peoples religious beliefs (although that will probably never happen either). I’ve seen adverts for churches, and religion, why not Atheism?

Free speech is the best!

If they don’t like other people’s opinions, they can stay home.

@J0E

Recognize a Joker when you see one

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies damn that lack of sarcasm interpreting!

thats probably the least offensive thing atheists could have put up. I find it more intellectually offensive that people would think of it being offensive at all.

@Rsam

I am offended by your intellectual offensiveness which is not offended by the least offensive thing that people would think of as being offensive at all.

It puts me on the defensive.

Offends me the same way a pro-life poster would, or a billboard about Jesus, all the same to me.

I was just reading in Free Inquiry Magazine, a magazine for atheists and freethinkers, that the one thing that atheists miss when they abandon organized religion is the social networking, “fellowship” and communal experience often provided by churches. Somebody had done a survey of believers and ex-believers and they found that atheism tended to consign a person to a kind of “loner” existence, which many saw as a definite drawback to being atheist vis a vis more socially integrated and supportive religious congregations.

Apparently, people can get along quite well without a belief in a supernatural God, but they tend to feel somewhat isolated, less committed to their beliefs, less active in sticking up for themselves, and less likely to engage in public spirited things, like donating time or money to worthy causes, particularly to the sick, the poor and the downtrodden. Many also seem to still crave a bit of “churchy” ritual. Atheist and freethinker meetings I have gone to were very much like any other Sunday services, with a meditation, a collection, a sermon, a communal repast (of cake and coffee) and socializing afterward. It was just like an organized religion with a God-sized hole in it.

I think these ads are an attempt to draw atheists, agnostics and freethinkers together into a community which can support the kinds of social and moral connections that believers feel through their congregations. That “Christians” should find any of this “disturbing” is just plain sad and not very Christian.

No, I’m not disturbed at all. It will make people think about theism and atheism. The bus is touring Germany as well. Many scientists will be very amused reading unscientific statements like ‘God doesn’t exist’, but there are other ads like ‘There’s probably no God’ which seem a bit more reasonable.

Personally, I think would would make more sense to charter buses with messages like ‘Fight scientific illiteracy’. This would target religious fundamentalists, soap opera addicted agnostics and superstitious atheists.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies you’re silly. and by silly i mean silly because if “you” (please read the advertisement) are not an atheist, then this does not concern or harm you in any way, thus its “silly” (maybe “intellectually offensive” was strong) for anyone else to be concerned. there’s no dogmatic statement, no attempt at persuasion, and no tauting of why one belief is better than another. its just saying, “hey, you’re not alone”.

Lonely Atheists can always go hang out with the Unitarians. While they are Theists of a sort (several sorts, actually), they are also free-thinkers and quite friendly.

@darwin. this is sort of like saying. “Hey Muslim friend! we believe in God too! come hang out with us Christians!”.

@Rsam – Actually, the Unitarian-Universalist church includes pagans and Wiccans as well as Christians, so it doesn’t have to be the same god at all, or even any god. So actually, Muslims are welcome to visit the Unitarians, too.

At least Muslims and Christians share a common god, some common writings, and a number of common prophets, with the exclusion of Mohammed. What do Christians and pagans share? Nothing except a feeling of good will and a need for human company.

I am atheist, and I don’t get why atheists don’t see why theists would be offended. Theists, especially Christians seemed to be very worried that people who do not believe like them are going to hell and some will go as far to say that atheists are less moral and less trustworthy, so of course they would fear or be disturbed at encouraging people to be atheists. I am disturbed that theists encourage people to fear God (I know they don’t all do this, don’t jump on me) to ignore science at times, etc.

@JLeslie But the ad doesn’t encourage… it just says “you are not alone”. It’s basically saying “other atheists exist”, that’s all.

@Rsam I remember there were a several atheists at the Unitarian church my parents went to.

@augustlan I understand, and of course I support free speech etc. Maybe offended is the wrong word, but I think it is scary to some theists maybe? Many of the Christians where I live are TERRIFIED that Obama is a Muslim, not born in American person with evil intent. That he dare say that America is not a Christian country, but a country with Christians, Jews, Atheists…not sure of the exact quote…they were very upset. I can’t tell you how many times I hear people say, “I don’t care what religion as long as you BELIEVE.” I don’t think they want people who question to know that there are bunches of us out there.

Of course I’m not disturbed, religion is everywhere, they make buildings for them, just cause someone put a non religious advertisement out there it’s no reason to start botching about it

@JLeslie – Here’s what Obama said during his inauguration:

”... We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus – and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace…”

Many of the Christians where I live WELCOME Obama’s approach towards interfaith dialog. The majority of Christians worldwide are not Christian fundamentalists taking the whole bible literally and telling other people to fear God.

@mattbrowne I have a question for you…do you believe there are many Christians who don’t want Atheism to spread?

I love what Obama said. Most Christians near me hated it. I am glad to know that Christians near you liked it. I’m in the bible belt, I think they worry about “their America” slipping away. So, from your copy of the quote I looked at the speech again and he did not actually say, “we are not a Christian nation,” I guess the unhappy people around me added that part, or took his statment to mean that. A church near me has a mini statue (when I say mini I mean 10 feet tall) of the statue of liberty carrying a huge cross…to give you an idea.

Personally, I don’t like the commercialization of religion. Huge crosses by the side of the highway, billboards, sky writing. I don’t like it. I think of religion as more personal, for the family and church. Atheists are only doing this stuff as a backlash I think against all of the other religions who are putting crap out there to attract, pursuade, or manipulate people; I’d rather there be none of it. I am not talking about Christmas decorations or sharing ones religion with friends and family, I am talking about the advertising. I grew up in a very diverse environment, and we never thought twice about if someone was a different religion, because we just took it like, you are this, I am that, no big deal, but when it is in your face everywhere it turns me off. I agree the atheists in this particular message are just saying their are others out here, well at least that is what the literal language says on the sign.

@JLeslie – There’s no bible belt in Europe. Widespread Christian fundamentalism, young earth creationism and a vocal religious right movement seems like a American phenomenon. To me the statue of liberty stands for freedom of religion (which includes the right not to be religious) and not a particular flavor of Christianity.

Are there many Christians who don’t want atheism to spread? Probably. But I want secularism, critical thinking and freedom of religion to spread. This is more important to me than the percentages of atheists and religious people. I want scientific literacy to spread. And I want good offers for people who seek spiritual lives as well. A couple of months ago I read a very interesting book and I can highly recommend it. It deals with the issues you mentioned in your previous post.

“The Left Hand of God: Taking Back Our Country from the Religious Right” by Michael Lerner. Here’s a description from Amazon:

Named one of Utne’s 100 American Visionaries, Rabbi Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine, delivers an ambitious proposal called a “Spiritual Covenant with America.” Before detailing his plan, he provides an extensive survey of American history and ideology, rife with examples of dominant and controlling attributes favored by those on the right (the “right hand of God”) who believe in a frightening world replete with evil and ruled by an avenging God. This contrasts with what he considers the loving, kind and generous tendencies of those at the “left hand of God,” who instead believe in a compassionate and merciful deity. These delineations occur on both sides of the political aisle—and not solely within one religion. Rabbi Lerner addresses both the “intolerant and militaristic” tactics of the political right and the “visionless… often spiritually empty” tenets of the political left with an even hand. His vision of a country devoid of poverty, homelessness, unemployment and uninsured citizens comes with an actual blueprint, in which Americans rededicate themselves to traditional values of love, kindness, respect and responsibility. Unfortunately, the rays of hope delivered in this impassioned proposal are buried in an often rambling and repetitive dialogue that may alienate those most likely to respond.

For the first half of the book, Lerner diagnoses the symptoms and causes of this crisis and argues that “the search for meaning in a despiritualized world… leads many people to right-wing religious communities” and politics. Among the thousands of people Lerner and his colleagues have interviewed, some common concerns surfaced time and again: eroding societal values, America’s troubling emphasis on money and greed, unstable families, the attempt to place monetary value on everyone and everything, and spiritual isolation. Right-wing religious institutions appeal to these concerns by providing communities of comfort and instructions on how to change this status quo; right-wing politicians promise to fix the problem by imposing their own solutions. No wonder voters of modest means are attracted. But as Lerner expertly details, the proffered solutions don’t eliminate the concerns so much as they trade on their political value.

@mattbrowne I think we agree. “My America” was founded on religious freedom, understanding, liberty and justice for all, etc. I see this religious ferver in my country as unAmerican. Not unAmerican to be religious, I am fine with people being religous/theists, but trying to put it into our government our schools…it is scary to me. They associate Christianty with democracy. I have had more than once, when I say I’m an atheist, people say back, “so you are a communist.” I sat next to a gentleman raised in San Fransisco, but lived most of his life in Europe—switzerland, Germany, Belgium (he was in his early 50’s I think), his wife is Italian, and 4 years ago they moved to Memphis, TN for his job, and he said they are/were SHOCKED at what it is like in America, unprepared (but of course Memphis is the bible belt). But, the bible belt south should not be confused or generalized to all of America. Our country is so vast, and there seems to be some sigificant backlash to the religious right going on. Sometimes I think I should move to Europe :).

@JLeslie – I lived in Lawrence, KS in 1988 and 1989. It’s a university town with very few deluded religious fanatics. But I was totally shocked the first time I listened to a fanatic tv evangelist. At first I thought it was some kind of satirical show or comedy… then I realized the guy was dead serious. Spooky.

America seems like a land of extremes and of course this can be very positive as well. Change is often seen as an opportunity. The world wide web was invented in Europe but it was America turning it into a global phenomenon, creating ecommerce and eventually Web 2.0 as well.

We can see the extremes with education as well: some of the best universities in the world on one side and completely uneducated ignorant people on the other, people that can’t tell the difference between an atheist and a communist. My favorite anecdote is from a Greyhound trip I made as a student. Some guy asked me whether we had cars in Germany. I told him cars were invented in Germany. And he actually thought I was kidding. But I also met so many smart and interesting and friendly people and it always makes me want to go back, at least for a visit every now and then. Well, the web allows to stay in touch, at least virtually.

@mattbrowne Are there cars in Germany? Unbelieveable. I never fault someone for asking a question, because otherwise they stay ignorant, but it still is amazing.

My husband, when he first came to the states, also thought televangelists were the strangest thing, didn’t exist in his country.

I think there are many people in my country who have little awareness of the world, not the majority of us, but a big enough number that it counts. Who are very ego and ethnocentric. I guess it comes with being so large and having a significant amount of power in recent history? I think about how Americans complain about the French, saying they don’t make an effort to speak English; this comes from people who cannot speak a second language themselves. Or, the Bush Gore election was held up in the state of Florida where the Governor is Bush’s brother. If this happened in any other country Americans would be quick to judge, quick to talk about corruption in other countries, and feel superior. We fail to question the media or look critically at how things are reported (well not Flutherites :)). During the violence in the streets that was being reported in Iran after their recent presidential election I posted this on my facebook:

Guess what city this describes?

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we’re looking at a situation right now in [city withheld], where police are arresting a photographer. A news photographer is being led away by the police right now. The police moved into this area about 10, 15 minutes ago, retaking control of this area that had been—that they had abandoned for a while. The protesters were out here on the streets in force…And then the police came back in riot gear, firing tear gas, spraying pepper spray and resuming control of this area. A moment ago we also saw another man being arrested…at a gas station across the street from us. You’re looking now at that trash dumpster on [street withheld] that was set fire a while ago. The police came in, established control of the area, then the fire department came in and put the fire out.
The police clearly are in a no-nonsense mood here, and most of the protesters have been chased away. They had parked cars in the middle of the intersection and were chanting…as it appeared for just a short while, maybe a half an hour, that the police had abandoned the area, had established a perimeter around it, were letting people blow off steam. But that didn’t last very long, and the police came back in much bigger force than they had been here before, wearing gas masks, with their riot gear, with their shields, and clearly clearing out the area very effectively.
The people—the people ran away to the west and to the south. The gas is very effective in changing people’s direction. And it worked. And the people have been moved.
Now there are a number of these incidents, we’re told, around [city withheld] and this is just one, and one more of them that has blown up this morning. People are extremely angry here and feel betrayed by the government.

@JLeslie – Well, other countries are not perfect either. Some time ago I compiled a list with examples what other countries can learn from the US and vice versa. Here it is:

What can we learn from the US?

1) More than 200 years of democracy (checks and balances made sure it never turned to extreme totalitarianism. Even 8 years of Bush is like a minor hiccup compared to the Third Reich, Stalin, Mao or the aftermath of the French Revolution)

2) Immigration: Drawing the best talents from all over the world

3) Ivy league universities and the ability to think big – highest per capita rate of Nobel Prize winners

4) Pioneering mentality, visionary, innovative and risk-taking entrepreneurship (meant in a positive way e.g. Sun or Google in the silicon valley, not the corporate crooks creating speculative bubbles)

5) Applying self-help / community organization (Obama is a great example for that) instead of always waiting for the state to fix everything

6) Friendliness, openness, welcoming visitors

7) Optimism (I think the recent years are the exception if you look at time spans of 100 years or more)

What could the US learn from other countries?

1) Taking more interest in what other countries do better

2) Modesty, temperance

3) Mandatory teaching of one foreign language starting at the age of 10

4) Health care (analyze how Germany does this)

5) Challenge your assumptions – don’t assume the world ends beyond the borders of your country. Finally get rid of this outdated exotic non-metric system

6) Save more when times are good – think twice before applying for loans or using your credit card

7) Don’t use excessive advertisement everywhere especially on TV, most of the ads are of trash quality numbing the minds of many kids

I find it hard to guess the city from the CNN report. Can you give me a hint?

Seattle during the anti-WTO demonstrations?

@mattbrowne Thank you for that list. The list about what America does well: #1 gives me some comfort, because it has always been said that if the holocaust can happen in Germany it can happen anywhere. Certainly in American history we ca point out things that seem less than democratic or taken inhumane actions against our own citizens.

#2 interesting that you point out immigration, in hot debate in my country now.

#3 about the Nobel prize winners, I did not know this statistic. I wonder what the country of origin is for these Americans? Or, do you think it is the American environment that allows for these people to prosper? I did know that right around 20% of Nobel Prize winners are Jewish, even though we are less than one quarter of 1 percent of the worlds population, but I have always wondered the countries of origin for these Jews? Germany? Russia? America? Or, what percentage are Sepahardic vs. Ashkenazi?

I especially like your list of what we can learn from other countries. It gives a clue of how Americans are perceived I think. I have to say I agree with everything. #5 drives me crazy! How could we not change to metric?! We should have done it years ago when it would have been easier. I have no idea what they teach in our schools now, my hope would be they teach both at the same time and give both systems the same importance, but I doubt it. Metric is so much easier, I just don’t get it, and I was raised here.

The city was Miami during the Elian Gonzales demonstrations, not sure you would be familiar with that? Most Americans are so quick to judge scenes on tv of police and governments trying to shut down demonstrations in other countries, feeling like it never happens in America, but it still does…sometimes it is for good reasons, to keep people safe, it is not always the government trying to stop a message…sometimes it is our officials going overboard. Still you can’t assume from what the media reports in my opinion.

I don’t have a problem with it whatsoever. Its simply and ad for an organization. Its not trying to get me to think a certain way or buy something, and its not lying to me. I don’t know what that guy has stuck up his bum.

@dee1313 Welcome to Fluther!

@augustlan Thanks!

@JLeslie – Yes, metric is a lot easier. But many conservatives think it’s “unamerican”.

@mattbrowne I think its unamerican that “under God” was added to our Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and still remains there.

I do think we should switch to metric. I think it would probably be difficult getting there, though. All the highway signs would need to be switched from miles to kilometers, manufacturers would need to alter their packaging to accommodate it, not to mention having to education the American people on it.

@dee1313 – I always thought if Captain Kirk can do it, everybody can do it. Oh wait, he was Canadian ;-)

@mattbrowne @dee1313 Highway signs get changed anyway over time from wear and tear I think…not sure how often. Tools would take a while. I never thought of it as Unamerican, I never heard someone say that, that’s interesting if people think that. I always thought most Americans suck at math and they have trouble converting inches to centimeters, and don’t understand that when you are working in metric you are not converting you are simply utilizing it. And, they don’t get that base 10 is so much easier (just move around a decimal) than dividing and multiplying by 12 or 3 or 8.

Well, a migration would take 10–20 years especially for critical items such as hazardous machinery. They’d need dual labels. New generations in kindergarten/elementary school would grow up with the new system.

@mattbrowne Another reason we should have done it a long time ago, its just going to get harder and harder. I would guess we buy machinery from parts of Europe, so I guess that is double labeled to accomodate the US?

@JLeslie – Probably. Speedometer in cars certainly are.

@mattbrowne Actually I just checked my Porsche Cayenne and it only has Miles, and I think my 911 is the same, they are less than two years old.

@mattbrowne @JLeslie guys. chill out. its the internets.

My daughter’s VW has the speedometer in both miles and kilometers. It’s a 2001.

@Darwin do you live in USA?

@mattbrowne I think you have a point, I thought about it more, that Americans might see metirc as a “foreign” system. I think we should be putting both measurements on everything, the US receives people from various different countries every day, if not for us, then for them. But, there is a resistance in my country to make things bilingual, multilingual, so it probably falls into the same mindset. This way of thinking is based so much in fear it is very difficult to change.

@JLeslie – Yes, I live in the USA. As someone trained as a scientist I readily use both measurement systems. However, I must admit that I am more comfortable citing the weather and cooking temperatures in Fahrenheit.

@Darwin I was wondering about the VW actually when I asked where you live. Thinking maybe it was made for Canada or Latina America or somewhere besides the US since my Porsches only have MPH. I agree about temperature, that one would be the hardest thing for me to change.

New Beetles are actually constructed in Puebla, Mexico, but for the American market primarily. I don’t know where your Porsches were actually assembled, though.

@Darwin Pretty sure assembled in Germany. I don’t think it matters where assembled, I think it matters what market they are being shipped to. The old beetles were made in Mexico for years also.

I think all of my cars in the last 10 years have had MPH in large numbers, surrounded by KPH in small numbers.

i say all tachometers should be in m/s

Porsche is now owned by Volkswagen which created a major earthquake in Germany. Not sure if this will make any difference to labeling the speedometers ;-)

A scientist in Houston was responsible for the crash of an expensive Mars probe (as part of an international mission) because he wasn’t fluent in metric or forgot about it altogether. NASA is metric, but the mindset of some of its employees isn’t. They were all raised non-metric with maybe a “metric week” once every year at school, which isn’t enough to change mindsets. Every educated person in the world is willing to accept English as the number 1 common language on an international level. Learning English is a major effort which takes years. Now compare this to learning metric as the number 1 common system on an international level. I think some (ultra) conservatives in the US put metric and the UN into the same category. Bad foreign influence. So do we have to wait for Captain Kirk after all?

There are only 3 non-metric countries left:

Liberia, Burma and the United States, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_units

@ragingloli

Good point. In fact there are only the following units

meter m length
kilogram kg mass
second s time
ampere A electric current
kelvin K thermodynamic temperature
candela cd luminous intensity
mole mol amount of substance

Even in metric countries there are plenty of non-metric units in common use such as horse powers instead of watts and calories instead of joules.

i wouldn’t mind switching to kelvin in everyday use. i don’t really care about calories and prefer joules. horsepower to watts however would take some getting used to, but hey, bring it on.

@ragingloli – Yes, summer is always hot in Kansas, with high temperatures that often reach the 310’s and high humidity levels a sure thing.

@mattbrowne I didn’t know about the mars probe mistake being a metric problem? It seems crazy to me since I think of American SCIENTISTS as using metric as their main measurement. Scientists, medical doctors, etc,

FYI – I checked my American made Chevy truck, and its speedometer is also in both miles per hour and kilometers per hour.

I remembered the discussion on switching America to metric, and thought this would be amusing if that did happen.

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/12/23/a-most-useful-tattoo/

@JLeslie – I was referring to this:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

September 30, 1999 – (CNN)—NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because one engineering team used metric units while another used English units for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

@mattbrowne oh, so it was not that they did not convert the measurement correctly, they didn’t even realize it needed to be changed.

I love how this thread went from religious controversy to interplanetary exploration and systems of measurement. Good job, team!