Social Question

jazzjeppe's avatar

Where does this American fear of socialism come from?

Asked by jazzjeppe (2598points) August 22nd, 2009

From time to time I read about and hear about the somewhat absurd fear of socialism in the USA. And sometimes Americans tend to equalize socialism and communism, which is just silly. I live in Sweden, a country where the biggest party is the social democrats and even if they aren’t in office at the moment, they have been ruling the country most of the time. I am a socialist aswell and I have been voting on them many times.

So I am curious, where does this fear of socialism come from? What exactly is it that Americans think is bad with socialism? Isn’t this “fear” based on ignorance, I mean to think that socialism is the same as communism…?

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32 Answers

gottamakeart's avatar

My feeling is that it is just more fear-mongering republican propaganda and anyone capable of thinking for themself will not fall for it.

jaketheripper's avatar

Conservatives don’t like socialism because of the power it gives the government.

jrpowell's avatar

Seriously, most of the people here (I mean the United States, not Fluther) can’t properly define Socialism. A good chunk of the population equates socialism with communism. And all they remember is that Commies are the bad guys.

Pretty much ignorance at its finest.

jrpowell's avatar

@jaketheripper :: Look at what Bush did. Patriot Act, FISA. And look at stuff like Roe V. Wade and same sex marriages. To claim Republicans don’t want the government to have power over your life is disingenuous.

NowWhat's avatar

Basically, socialism deprives you of what you earned from all of your hard work. Charitable giving isn’t charitible if you’re forced to take care of other people, and socialism forces people to be charitable. When you actually have a choice in how much you want to support other people, you actually have a chance to give more- which most Americans do. I’ve noticed in my short life that the more benefits people get on welfare, the less volunteers you see working at the soup kitchens. Forced charity just makes resentment and class warfare, which is socialism.

jaketheripper's avatar

@johnpowell there is an ever widening gap between conservative and republican. I disagree with all those things other than roe v wade. Socialism puts so much power in the hands of the government which is the last place I want it.

ragingloli's avatar

Conservatives rather give control to corporations who want their money, than to the government they elect to serve them.
Like the current healthcare situation in the US.
Private insurance suck the money out of the insured and then deny them coverage when they need it, while the seniors under the government funded medicare are happy with their service and don’t need to worry about things like medicare refusing to pay for necessary treatments, but conservatives still prefer submitting to the insurance corporations who demonstrably work against them everytime they feel like it.
It is irrational.

PupnTaco's avatar

It’s a relic of the ‘50s/‘60s Cold War. Many in power came of age during that time, old habits die hard.

dpworkin's avatar

Werner Sombart, though not a hero of mine, did write an interesting book which I recommend: Warum bist Kein Socializmus in die Vereinegen Staaten that addresses this issue rather fully.

To very briefly summarize, there is a sense of possible social mobility in the US, that is not found in the same way in the Old World, so that working class people can imagine that they will someday be rich.

This sensibility, while it has admirable qualities, also allows certain people to be manipulated into voting against their own interests.

ragingloli's avatar

@pdworkin
it’s “Warum gibt es in den Vereinigten Staaten keinen Sozialismus?”

dpworkin's avatar

I’m old, monolingual and forgetful. But you understood me.

jrpowell's avatar

Good point pdworkin. Remember Joe The Plumber? He was going to buy a business and make millions. As things currently stood Obama was going to help him. But this visionary was looking to the future (The American Dream) where he was going to be super rich and the government was going to steal all his money.

The idiot wasn’t even a licensed plumber.

DominicX's avatar

@johnpowell

The difference is that a lot of those things are moral issues. Conservatives are mostly Christian in this country and don’t care if morality is legislated to support their moral ideas. Conservatives want high economic freedom and socialism goes against that.

jazzjeppe's avatar

But I mean, go to war to fight socialism and communism and start a witch-hunt for suspected communists? Isn’t that a bit…well…absurd?

Darbio16's avatar

Communism is the natural enemy of Fascism. People in America need to wake up and realize they are in a fascist nation. Upton Sinclair stated “Fascism is capitalism plus murder”. Fascism can basically be described as a merger between the State and corporations. Both Fascism and Communism result in have a dictatorship or an oligarchy. Two sides of the same coin, both funded by the same people. Most insurance lobby firms are probably flipping the fuck out in D.C. right about now. So many profits to lose of course. Those profits i can assure you will not be passed back to the people as a result of socialized health care, they will all be sucked up by a massive government bureaucracy. Instead of you receiving a bill for a premium payment, it will automatically be taken out of your paycheck.

Honestly, with obesity at around 60% of the population and the amount of people that smoke, drink and abuse drugs, how can Americans expect health care when they don’t even care about their health? Now be totally honest with yourselves. The government will not be so much in the business of health care but most likely force you to care about your health by making treatment less available while at the same time starting a massive bureaucracy to make sure Americans aren’t swaying from a healthy lifestyle.

Funny though that all the chemicals and additives and GMO’s don’t bother the FDA much. This government agency boasts that all is good with our food supply and that a pill, made by way of petro-chemicals in the big pharma industry of course, will fix all of life’s little problems. Put the pieces of this puzzle together and with the passing of socialized healthcare this fall, then dec. 31 we usher in Codex Alimentarius, and what we will see is a drastic decline in not only the health of those in this nation, but of nations all over the world.

tinyfaery's avatar

Keeping the masses ignorant allows the educated and powerful to keep their positions. Fear and propaganda are very effective on the ignorant.

tinyfaery's avatar

@NowWhat That would work if we all weren’t greedy bastards, caring more about what kind of car we drive then we do about the suffering of living creatures.

AstroChuck's avatar

From the right.

Zuma's avatar

I asked this very same question yesterday.

First, let’s take a moment to recall what Liberalism is. Classical Liberalism was the original ideology of the American Revolution. It emphasized human rationality, natural (inalienable) rights, free markets, individual property rights, civil liberties and constitutional limitations on government. It flourished in early America because there was no entrenched establishment based on inherited privilege, tradition or dogma.

In the 1960s, a resurgent liberalism attempted to extend the promise the promise of natural rights to those who were left out of the original deal (blacks, women, gays, and other minorities). And they were criticized by Conservatives for trying to go “too fast.” By the way, Classical Conservatism, in the tradition of Edmund Burke, sought to preserve social continuity by limiting the pace of social change—which was beginning to accelerate with the advent of modernity since the Industrial Revolution.

Modernity was, and is, the continuing the attempt revise and reorder every human institution according to rational principles—to introduce routinizing and rationalizing technologies wherever possible, and get human life “down to a science.” In the late 1960s, conservatives embraced modernity with a vengeance in the form of a kind of “let ’er rip” free-market capitalism, which Robert Heilbroner aptly called, “business radicalism.” This was condensed into “trickle down” economics which, of course, greatly enriched the rich but has resulted in stagnant or declining real (after inflation) wages for everyone else.

Here, unfettered free market forces tend to reduce human beings to a commodity: labor so that people are expected to relocate and adapt to the economy rather than the other way around, even if it means uprooting families from their traditional communities and relocating them elsewhere. Markets also transform the natural world into a commodity; i.e, Nature becomes “real estate,” posing problems of environmental degradation that make the problem of the commons pale by comparison. Human wealth also becomes commodified into the form of “capital” and technology. Liberals and Progressives have had to take on the role of trying to slow things down, so that people are not destroyed by capitalism’s winds of “creative destruction.”

Socialism, in its earliest sense, was one of the forces of modernity. Originally it meant the “alienation” or “spinning off” of economic functions that were traditionally done by the family, into “society” in such a way that this function could be rationalized by technology and divisions of labor in a wage labor economy. Care of the sick, for example, was spun off from the family to creates a medical profession, consisting of doctors, nurses, midwives and hospitals—and more recently, a whole scientific establishment, and a health insurance industry. Likewise, the making of clothes was spun out of the family into manufactured clothing industry and a retail trade. And, more recently, the preparation of food has been spun off from the family into a vast restaurant, fast-food and prepared food industry.

Some of these family functions, such as education, criminal justice, providing for people during their old age or during periods of unemployment are inherently unprofitable; so these functions have been socialized into the state. And, it is this latter aspect of socialism that has come down to us as the dominant meaning of “socialism” today among people who use the term in it’s precise economic and historical sense.

One of the consequences of modernity is that the family has been transformed from a unit of production to a unit of consumption. So, when you hear traditionalists rail against “socialism” or “liberalism” and the loss of “traditional family values,” what they are really complaining about is the modernity-driven socialism that has transformed the family into an engine of consumerism, and only incidentally about the functions the family falling into the hands of the state. Unfortunately, traditionalists tend to view things in rather individualistic, moralistic, and religious terms so, they tend to see the forward thrust of secularization, rationalization and the spinning off of the economic functions of the family in terms of the failings of individual moral character rather than systemic economic forces playing themselves out across history. For example, instead of viewing the “decline of the family” in terms of people moving away to new job markets, or the transformations of values and tastes engendered by consumerism, they tend to blame it on individual selfishness as expressed in dope, divorce, abortion, feminists, and gays. These, of course, are the effects of systemic changes, not their cause.

As we have seen, socialism has both a public and a private face. The fast food industry, of course, is organized for private profit; whereas, the public schools and social security are nonprofit ventures run for the benefit of the public by the state. Under Communism, there is no private sector; everything is socialized and run by the state for the benefit of the public, usually with poor results.

Under Democratic Socialism, as they have in Sweden, there is a private sector, organized for private profit, but that profit is heavily taxed in order to provide a kind of equality of lifestyle based on public benefits, with excellent results. Even our own “free market” system contains socialized sectors providing public education and social insurance and health care (Medicaid and Medicare), and they work very well. But the privatized part of our health care system, and attempts to privatize education, prisons, and warfare, have all turned into profiteering boondoggles that are at least as inefficient in their way as the Communist’s attempt to socialize manufacturing and service industries.

Since people are currently tossing the term “Nazi” around without much regard to it’s actual meaning, let’s consider what that means: National socialism, the economic program of the Nazis, was something altogether different that Democratic Socialism. Here, the object of socialism is not the welfare of the individual, as it is under Liberalism, Democratic Socialism, and Communism, but the welfare of the State—in particular, the militarized State and the corporations that profit from this militarization. In other words, the whole society and all its institutions are being rationalized and streamlined for the waging of war. And because National Socialism puts the welfare of the state and its corporations before the welfare of the individual, it is not shy about purging itself of “useless” citizens, “decadent” ideologies, criminals, deviants, the racially “inferior” or anyone else it for whom it can find no rational use.

When a society commits itself to total war mentality like this, there is no room for dissent. Criticism, dissent and even “lack of enthusiasm” become treason. The Nazis purged leftists and trade unionists because they were Democratic Socialists who wanted the state to work “by the people, for all the people.” The National Socialists despised democracy, and were intent on building a two-tier society consisting of Pure Aryans, who would be the Master Race, while everyone else would be enslaved and eventually liquidated when they needed the room. The Nazis didn’t build the autobahns and the Volkswagen for “the masses,” they built them in preparation for war. They also paid for these projects with slave labor and the liquidated assets of the Jews, and others they purged.

As you will recall, capitalism collapsed in the 1920s, and it nearly collapsed in 2008 (and it might yet still collapse). The New Deal Liberalism of FDR was based on a Socialist critique of Capitalism—and that critique is still valid today as it was then. Capitalism has inherent structural weaknesses:

1. Market societies are inherently prone to boom and bust cycles;
2. Market societies are inherently prone to oligopoly and monopoly;
3. Capitalists can not be trusted to voluntarily regulate themselves, so market societies tend are inherently prone to pervasive gaming and organized crime;
4. The unrestrained rapacity of capitalists leads to a form of class warfare in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until the rich disenfranchise the poor.
5. Once the rich consolidate their power in the form of a Corporate State, they tend to instigate wars for profit.
6. This leads to environmental degradation, displaced populations, epidemic disease, widespread poverty and a collapse back into third-world conditions.

FDR’s reforms were an attempt to save Capitalism from itself. Regulatory agencies helped clean up the cesspools of graft and corruption that were pervasive at the time; trust busting made sure that the rich didn’t dominate the economy; interest group politics made sure that everyone got a seat at the political table. The separation of banking and securities investment ensured that capital markets were insulated from speculative bubbles. The FDIC socialized the risks of bank failure, greatly strengthening the system. Make work projects put people back to work. Social Security gave people some measure of pension security.

Since then, those structural reforms have been gradually undermined, leading us back to an unregulated financial sector engaging in speculative bubbles characterized by boom and bust. So far, Obama’s reforms have been tepid compared to FDRs, insofar as they seek only to patch up the failing bank and credit systems, rather than fundamentally alter the power relationships between creditor and debtor, producer and consumer, and employer and worker. Obama’s credit “reform” restrains the credit card industry from engaging in certain predatory practices, but it still allows them to charge upwards of 30% interest.

One exception is health care. This involves one-sixth of the economy, and it is absolutely corrupt with waste fraud and abuse. The higher you go in the industry, the more it is like organized crime. None of the proposals on the table have anything to do with the government taking over any hospitals, HMOs, drug companies, or setting up a planned economy that will set prices and allocate services, or anything like that. The proposal is simply to let the government lay down some ground rules prohibiting insurance companies from denying people coverage for pre-existing conditions, requiring prior authorizations for every little thing (which are often automatically denied), denying people coverage because they inadvertently failed to disclose some unrelated thing, or pressuring people into high deductible plans, or plans with inadequate coverage.

The other thing it proposes to do is to organize an insurance pool that will compete with private insurance plans. The government has economies of scale and other advantages that allow them to do this very cheaply. This is the so-called public option. And it is absolutely necessary to have private insurers compete against it, since otherwise there is no incentive to wring any of the waste, fraud, and abuse out of the current system. So, you see, the proposal is to let the markets do the work of reforming the system, which the health insurance industry is opposed to, since they’ve got most state markets sewn up with just a couple of insurers and there isn’t much meaningful competition at all. Also, much of the profit in the for-profit system is actually due to waste, fraud and abuse, since the money ends up in private pockets rather than in actual medical services.

Sorry for the length, but that should set the record straight about what Socialism is and isn’t.

Darbio16's avatar

I trace all current American problems to the creation of the Federal Reserve. We don’t have capitalism in America, we have fascism. Both are pretty similar. You think people using credit cards and getting charged 30% interest is bad, then you’ll flip to know that the Fed charges us about the same to print our money. They are a private banking institution that prints money out of thin air. You wanna talk inflation, there is your source. Every dollar they print makes every dollar in existence worth less. Minimum wage and cost of living along with other mathematical equations are simply a cunning illusion. A weeks pay gets you just about the same amount of goods today as a weeks pay 50 years ago, the only difference is that they had to adjust the numbers around to make it seem natural.

The Federal Reserve is our 3rd attempt at a central bank. The first two failed and so did this one. 16 years after its formation, the federal reserve made happen exactly what it claimed to be protecting us from. The issuer of the dollar can easily create a depression at will. First just make credit readily available to most everyone. Then you just call in all of your old loans while at the same time stop making new loans and viola! A depression.

Even during the time between this nations second and current central bank, there were still many economic hardships facing America. The fed loves to tell us all that, but what they won’t tell you is that the people who backed the federal reserve in the begining are the same people that were controlling the debtors prison in Europe. The patriots rose up and kicked their asses militarily but they brought to this nation an economic warfare that has devastated us. Andrew Jackson really put a damper on the plans of the bankers, but it wasn’t long before they had a hold of American finances again. Woodrow Wilson’s administration sold us out bad. He regretted doing it too, he wrote in his memoirs that he regretted handing over our future to a group of dominant men. FDR confiscated all of Americas gold and put it in Fort Knox only to years later give it to the Fed as collateral for the interest we owe them. Alongside the Federal Reserve Act in 1913 was the Income Tax. Just Friggin great. Now we have an institution that charges us to do what Congress is allowed to do for free, and they get guaranteed payments via the Income Tax.

dalepetrie's avatar

Where American fear of socialism comes from: Lack of understanding of the concept exploited by greedy opportunists who crave unlimited wealth and power at the expense of everyone else.

Zuma's avatar

@Darbio16 What does the Fed have to do with socialism?

Darbio16's avatar

socialism is just a power grab for the rich. they supply money to our nation for profit, so of course they are going to go along with immense national spending plans.

alive's avatar

PupnTaco was on the right track.

@jazzjeppe you asked why we are afraid of socialism. well it dates back in history. as i understand it prior to WWII the united states was not “scared” of socialism and had a strong working class party which had socialist ideologies, and other groups involved in politic such as the social democrats (which you mentioned).

but after WWI , or rather because of WWII the outlook on socialism, communism and the like changed dramatically.

During the War, Socialism, Communism, and Fascism were the enemies of the United States (and her allies)

Socialism from Germany : NAZIs – Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party)

Communism from China (and Russia, even though Russia was an ally because they were anti German)

And of course Italian Fascism/Nationalism.

So, as any country does in a war lots and lots of propaganda was thrust onto American society to tell us that socialism, communism and etc were bad, were a threat to america, and could ruin america by taking away many of our freedoms which we hold dear. ESP freedom of speech (which did in fact happen in NAZI Germany, and Italy, and Russia, and still to a certain extent in China. So it seemed logical to the average American)

The difference between Europe (such as sweden, denmark, france…) and the United States is that socialism never made a come-back. That is why you area a social democrat, and the term “social democrat” is completely foreign no pun intended to the majority Americans.

I would also like to just mention that i lived in DK for a while, and the socialization that Danish have is VERY different from the socialization that American’s have.

Danes see the government as there to serve the people, and have to answer to the will of the people. And they believe that the government does in fact do that…

While Americans on the other hand believe the government is full of crooks, and is deceitful and cannot be trusted.

So to Danes (and I think Swedes) see putting money in the hands of the government in the form of paying high taxes is seen as a good thing because that money will be distributed fairly and properly. While Americans think that paying any taxes is a bad idean because it gives too much power to people who they already distrust.

I hope that helped clear up some of your confusion.

I myself am a social democrat. unfortunately, that party doesn’t exist here :(

mattbrowne's avatar

McCarthyism seems to have created a powerful conspiracy theory that’s still alive and kicking in various circles…

mattbrowne's avatar

@alive – Nazism is not socialism, despite the name being part of the NSDAP acronym.

alive's avatar

@mattbrowne i known that nazism is not in reality a socialist government; it is a totalitarian regime. but when we fought the war it was regarded as “socialism” hence the fear of socialism. and the association of “government take over” with socialism.

dmabbott's avatar

I really wish “live simply so others may simply live” had never made it to a bumper sticker. It is, in essence the fear you describe. It is not, I feel, the classic “fear of the unknown,” however; it is the fear that draws the rich out of comfort and slumber every night. The fear that something that they have worked for will be taken from them and given to somebody who needs it. God forbid it should be a marginalized group; the elderly, immigrants, HIV sufferers, the unemployed, the uninsured, oh no! UGLY Americans equate democracy with capitalism. They do not know the difference. Because the extremists on the right want to keep their tight, wight little fists around their five-ton sport trucks, summer homes and corporate cash.

Zuma's avatar

@dmabbott Welcome to Fluther!

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

Americans have been terrorized by the radical conservatives to believe that communism equates to EVIL. Americans are ignorant of the distinction between social-democratic forms of government such as those of Sweden, Denmark and in many ways, Canada and the kind of governments of countries like the former Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China and North Korea. They would rather have their lives limited and demeaned by powerful capitalist corporations such as for-profit heath-care mega corporations and the monolitic insurance industry than pay taxes into the hands of a government they elect and can vote out of office so that the needs of the people can be met. The illusion that small government is the only way to encourage rugged individuals to succeed and to generate the wealth required to defend the country and wage war on any countries that don’t meet with the approval of the government of the day. Freedom seems to reduce to the ability of the rich and well connected to become more powerful to deny what they enjoy to their fellow citizens. The value of the individual is subject to the profit motives of Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Arms manufacturers and exporters, Big Banks and Insurance companies who have the freedom to exploit and control the lives of their employees and those who do the day to day work that keeps the wheels of the economy turning. This is celebrated as Capitalism and Democracy! What a perverted notion of how a “great” and “free” country should operate! Heaven forbid everyone should have equal and affordable access to a decent place to live, an education sufficient to prepare students to participate in society and Universal access to health care to keep them healthy and to restore them to health when they are injured or stricken by disease. Of course that would be Socialism which they “know” is an evil that leads to enslavement by the government! That must be prevented no matter the social cost!

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