Is "mom" or "parent" a dirty word in today's society?

No

How can words be dirty
I don’t see any stains on them :S

No, I don’t think so.

I think our society is still in the throes of reworking family vs. working roles in the shadow of feminism and in light of the fact that being working or middle class today requires two incomes.

ZOMG It’s Brave New World.

I’ve never really thought that way, never really noticed people get that up in arms about it aside from the occasional “get that brat to shut up lady” but most of the time it’s not a disdain towards mothers, just loud noise at a high pitch in general.

Those words are only dirty to the people who despise what they can’t achieve on their own.
Who doesn’t love “mom”? (save, perhaps, a Menendez brother…)

Oh please. You’re going to bring this up again. The least you could do is link to the actual question where everyone could see what I actually said instead of your biased re-telling of the story.

Not mom, but octamom now that’s nasty with a capital M

There always has been a lot of prejudice about ‘Moms” in the workplace, and about “stay at home Moms” and “welfare Moms” and such, but it is nearly always in regard to their financial status. When it comes to their social status, it is still not that bad.

Here, @ubersiren I’ll do it for you.
http://www.fluther.com/disc/44676/why-are-graduation-ceremonies-so-long-when-nobody-enjoys-them/

The mis-quote you took out of context was “graduation ceremonies are not places for the convenience of people who don’t know not to bring their children.”

The full question and details were:
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Why are graduation ceremonies so long when NOBODY enjoys them?

I went to my husband’s graduation ceremony yesterday and it was so freaking long. It was 3 hours long- there must have been 10 speakers before the name calling and stage walk. Do they not realize how hard it is to keep a 2 year old entertained in a hot stuffy sports arena crammed with people? Crimeny! I mean does anybody actually want to sit through that BS? Why do we feel it’s necessary to torture ourselves? Couldn’t they be made just a little shorter, or at least throw some real entertainment in? What…is… the…point!!! Someone please tell me why the length. I understand the ritual, but why the length?
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and my full answer was:

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Uh. No one forced you to go. And CERTAINLY no one forced you to bring a 2 year old child. The graduation ceremony is for the students and the parents or family/friends who supported the students. It is not for the convenience of people who don’t know not to bring a 2 year old child to such a place.
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I guess it depends a lot on a few things. Some people do find parents who had children with out marriage, money, a place to live, etc. a burden. Also, parents who allow their children to “do what ever they want” as they say, may appear to be a burden to every one else as well….

Whore is a ‘dirty’ word. Mom, not so much…..

@bumwithablackberry you are being irrelevant.

No, I don’t think that “mom” or “parent” are dirty words or considered dirty anywhere, at least not in their inherent meaning. They certainly don’t carry the same stigma as “teenage parent,” “welfare mom,” or “single mom/dad” because those labels reveal negative traits of the parents themselves (negative insofar that they are considered by society to be). As for a bias against or disdain for parenting itself, everyone has parents and most people choose to become parents, so I don’t see where you think this sentiment comes from.

“Mom” is not the bad guy. Poorly behaved parents are. You kid is crying? You should take them out of the restaurant, movie, whatever. You should not stay there and bounce them convinced that they will suddenly stop. Politely remove yourself and return when they do stop.

If “some mom in a minivan” knows how to handle that minivan and is driving it well, she’s not going to get noticed negatively.

I absolutely agree that a two year old does not belong at a graduation ceremony. If it means that much to you that your child should see you graduate, have relatives in the crowd call right before you walk and let another relative bring the kid in then. Otherwise, sensibly, keep the kid home.

Parents are great. Bad parents are awful. A parent can be bad by raising a child poorly but just as easily by failing to respect other adults in the process of raising their child.

Oh. And parents, in general, should not get special consideration. Becoming a parent is a choice they made. They should not get special consideration when it comes time to hiring/laying off because they have a family to think about. They should not get to go home early to get to their family. Having a family was their choice.

Hmm, based off my snooping, it seems this question is entirely stemming off your last post about the grad ceremony and I now can understand why you wrote it

I understand how you may feel about it, those things are long… but they are long only for you and for a small child ): For other people though, they are wonderful events, and we want them to last a good long time so that we can remember them forever. I dont know, but honestly, you’re making a bit of a big deal about it. Dont take any offense to that, but just remember, next time youre at something and the child is crying and restless, do the right thing and get up and go some where else. Otherwise, the best option would be not to bring the child and leave it with some one else reliable to watch like the grand parents.

Most people will not consider a mom a burden, except for teen agers because they cant handle kids :P But a grown adult will usually not feel upset at a parent UNLESS they do as the above answerer stated…. parents who sit there and bounce the child in their lap thinking it would stop :/ You must get up and leave! The child is obviously not meant for what ever you are doing (actually, most kids under 3 shouldnt be taken to crowded and public places… ever).

There was a thread on here earlier today that had that same tone. I don’t get it. Not to me.

@EmpressPixie really nailed it in her last paragraph. The apparent disdain for parents isn’t disdain for parenthood, it’s disdain for the sense of entitlement that some (not all!) parents seem to have. Some parents seem to expect other people to make relatively large accommodations for their decision to have children (six hour flights with screaming babies come to mind). I worry that this sense of entitlement is ingrained in our society by things like giving tax breaks for parents, which tacitly endorses having children.

And the disdain goes both ways. I have heard multiple times that being a mother is the most important, most significant thing in the world. That is pretty offensive to people who make a decision to do other things with their lives that are frankly more beneficial to a larger number of people.

You’d think so, thanks to the libs.

@MrItty: What I said
“graduation ceremonies are not places for the convenience of people who don’t know not to bring their children.”

What you said:
. It is not for the convenience of people who don’t know not to bring a 2 year old child to such a place.

I fail to see the major difference there. The point is that I didn’t really have a choice in the matter at the time, and I DID NOT BRING THIS UP AGAIN, YOU DID.

That post was months ago, and if you read my question details, you’d know why this came up. It had NOTHING to fucking do with that fucking post, which, again, I did NOT bring up. It was an example. I’m not sure why this issue is being discussed.

As a parent of young children, I haven’t noticed any negativity just for being a mom. What I have noticed is a lot of judgemental, finger-pointing, blaming behavior. Most of the time, my kids are fine in public. Once in a while, one of them will have an issue. They’ve each had one public tantrum, but in each case I got such looks and glares that I was mortified. Once, a store employee actually followed me out to my car, giving me the nastiest look I had ever seen, all because my toddler got angry, threw a toy, and then screamed when I wouldn’t buy it. Nothing broke, no one was hurt, and we left immediately. It’s like the assumption is that because my kid acted like that one time, I was branded a “bad parent” and my kid a “spoiled brat” and how dare I ruin the Wal-Mart experience for those people.

So, what I think is that people need to be a little understanding and less judgemental. I’ve said it before here and I’ll say it again: Parents are not directly responsible for every single aspect of a child’s behavior and personality. If I pay over $50 to take my kids to a movie, you’re darn tootin’ I’m going to sit there and attempt to talk them into being quiet or sitting still before I jump up and haul them out of the theater. If we’re in a restaurant and one of them starts to cry but I’ve already ordered the food, of course I’m not going to rush out. I’m going to wait for my food, pay for it, and take it to go if I have to. In the meantime, I’m going to do whatever I can to keep my kid under control (keeping in mind that I always choose kid-oriented restaurants). My kids and I have just as much of a right to do our shopping and enjoy some time out as everyone else. I do all I can to make sure no one gets inconvenienced, but living with kids means just about everything is an inconvenience.

I wish I had been as knowledgeable about raising kids before I had kids as people nowadays are. People without kids always know what’s best and have all the right answers for every situation. :P

Thank you to those of you who actually bothered answering without attacking. All like, 3 of you.

This is not fair- there was really only one attacker.

@MissAusten : That’s exactly the stuff I’m talking about.

@ubersiren You said I claimed “children” shouldn’t be brought to long boring ceremonies. I did not. I said “2-year old children” should not be brought to long boring ceremonies. That is a significant difference.

And yes, you did bring it up again. Your question details state:
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Many people I encounter, especially on the internet where people are shielded by anonymity, see parents as burdens to the rest of the non-breeding society.
<...>

On one thread, a flutherer told me that graduation ceremonies are not places for the convenience of people who don’t know not to bring their children.

What’s with the disdain?
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Not a single person here has “attacked” you. You have this bizarre impression that anyone who disagrees with you is “attacking” you. It’s not an attack. It’s a disagreement, and in some cases, a refutation of facts. Everyone has answered your question. You simply don’t like most of the answers you got.

This question, and the last one, show that you seem to have a severe inferiority complex. I don’t know where it comes from, but I would strongly suggest you consider talking to someone about it.

@MrItty : I’m not a moderator, but take this to my PM please.

@ubersiren nope. You want to call out an old discussion of ours in public, I’m going to keep it public. You want to talk to me privately, start the conversation publicly.

@MrItty : I did not name you, nor did I intend this thread to be about this previous discussion. Let’s move on.

@ubersiren I entirely agree with you…and honestly, @EmpressPixie‘s post shows some of that disdain, in my opinion. Just to nitpick her post, she is basically judging parents as being “bad” parents because they don’t do as SHE wishes.
A parent should not have to leave something, because others can’t stand the noise of children. Kids are kids, they whine, they fidget, they have short attention spans. Most parents know their own child, and know when that breaking point of “is he going to calm the heck down or do we have to leave” happens. Most all parents I know can recognize this.
Also, to me…a bad parent is a parent who neglects, beats, or abuses their child. They are not a bad parent if they don’t take them out of a restaurant immediately for making noise. You have to teach a child manners, removing them from a situation doesn’t teach them manners. It teaches them that whining gets them out of whatever it is they’re doing.

On Fluther, choosing to have a child is a vile thing to do. I don’t experience it in person ever.

@casheroo : That’s all I’m saying is that it’s mostly the online community, and especially those people without kids. I’ve never had anyone in public come out and say anything nasty. It’s mostly people who talk to me through their computer monitors. Thanks for understanding.

I find it endlessly entertaining that people saying that parents shouldn’t receive special treatment/consideration (in the workplace it seems mainly) indicates that the consensus here is that choosing to have children is a “vile thing to do”. Take things too personally, eh?

And I also find it entertaining for the fact that I’d say about 50% of the users here are middle-aged parents.

@MissAusten

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Most of the time, my kids are fine in public. Once in a while, one of them will have an issue.
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No one but your family and friends see you “most of the time”. The rest of us only see you once, in passing. Therefore, if we happen to see you while your kids are having a fit, then 100% of the times we’ve seen you, your kids are having a fit. That’s not a fair sample size, obviously, but it’s the truth.

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So, what I think is that people need to be a little understanding and less judgemental.
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And I think that parents need to be a little more understanding of how they appear to the public. You’re with your kids all day long. You know what your kids are like the majority of the time. We only see you in that one instance.

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I’ve said it before here and I’ll say it again: Parents are not directly responsible for every single aspect of a child’s behavior and personality.
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No, but they are directly responsible for whether or not those children are in public, and therefore affecting other people.

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If I pay over $50 to take my kids to a movie, you’re darn tootin’ I’m going to sit there and attempt to talk them into being quiet or sitting still before I jump up and haul them out of the theater.
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It was your choice to spend $50 to take your family to the movies. You know your kids, you know whether or not they’re capable of being quiet for 2+ hours. Everyone else there paid the same amount as you to be there, and they aren’t bothering anyone, and most importantly, they didn’t choose to have your kids come in and disrupt their movie-going experience. You paid $50 for your tickets, not for the right to let your kids bother everyone else.

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If we’re in a restaurant and one of them starts to cry but I’ve already ordered the food, of course I’m not going to rush out. I’m going to wait for my food, pay for it, and take it to go if I have to. In the meantime, I’m going to do whatever I can to keep my kid under control (keeping in mind that I always choose kid-oriented restaurants). My kids and I have just as much of a right to do our shopping and enjoy some time out as everyone else.
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And everyone else has just as much right to be at that restaurant as you do. The difference is that they exercise that right without bothering anyone else. You are choosing to risk bothering everyone else by bringing children who perhaps are not yet ready for an extended social outing.

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I do all I can to make sure no one gets inconvenienced, but living with kids means just about everything is an inconvenience.
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Yes, but we don’t live with your kids. YOU chose to suffer that inconvenience. You made the decision to become a parent, with all the joys and all the sacrifices that it entails. It is inappropriate of you, in my opinion, to assume that because you chose to let yourself be inconvenienced, that everyone else should automatically have to put up with your inconveniences without getting upset about them.

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I wish I had been as knowledgeable about raising kids before I had kids as people nowadays are. People without kids always know what’s best and have all the right answers for every situation. :P
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I’m not claiming to have the right answers. I’m not claiming that you shouldn’t be allowed to take your kids out in public. I’m asserting that part of the sacrifice you make for being a parent includes the dirty looks you get when the choice you made (parenthood) inconveniences someone else.

@casheroo: A parent should not have to leave something, because others can’t stand the noise of children.

Um…yes, you should. There are times and places when it is appropriate to let the kid cry it out and other ones when it is clearly not.

Just so everyone knows, MrItty has 0 children.

I have three

@DominicX Ha, that is by far the only thread that makes me feel that way. Also, I’m no where near middle age…but thanks for trying to group people.

@nikipedia I honestly feel your opinion means nothing to me because you have no children and probably will never have children. I take my son out to where I please, and if he is so misbehaved we would leave, but him making noise…such as talking to his trains, or reading a book outloud (as toddlers do) then I’m not going to leave. There’s a difference between misbehaving and making noise.

@nikipedia : I at least see what you’re saying, and I agree to some extent. There are times and places when it is appropriate to let them cry (like the park?) and times when it’s not (movie theater). But if you’re taking a kid to the theater and letting him cry through it, you have bigger issues as a parent.

Removed by myself.

@casheroo

I assumed that when people said “making noise” they meant screaming and crying. I think most people would be more perturbed by screaming than they would by a toddler talking in a quiet or low-noise setting. I go to church every Sunday and the noise of young kids is something you will hear. However, I’ve noticed that when kids really start screaming and making excessively loud noises of distress, the parents will step out for a few moments with the child.

And you grouped people when you said “On Fluther, choosing to have a child is a vile thing to do.” Unfair generalization. And I know 50% are not middle-aged parents, but I have come across enough parents here to know that the majority of Flutherites do not think choosing to have children is a “vile thing to do”.

@peyton_farquhar : I tried. He insisted. MOYB.

@ubersiren As I said in the other thread, the reason I have zero children is because I know that I personally AM NOT WILLING to make that sacrifice. You have chosen to make it. And more power to you for that decision. But that sacrifice isn’t nullified because you decide that everyone else is giving you dirty looks. It’s part of that sacrifice.

I’m told that having a child can be the most joyous thing in the world. I have no first-hand knowledge of that joy. You do. I congratulate you for it. But it doesn’t come without cost.

@peyton_farquhar you’re welcome to stop following the thread if my posts are annoying you. I believe I’m having a fairly civil conversation, and see no need to chill the fuck out.

@casheroo: Cool, way to engage in a mature, thoughtful, respectful discussion. Why are you categorically incapable of listening to someone who disagrees with you?

I retract my statement. By all means, continue. It’s clearly a good use of time for both of you.

Does it matter why you don’t have them? You don’t have them, so you don’t know what it’s like. Period. And not everyone else gives me dirty looks. I don’t generalize that way. I believe those who do have negative things to say are ignorant and lack self control. It shouldn’t be my sacrifice just because those people are weak and inconsiderate.

Is there a mod? Can we get back to the topic?

“I don’t generalize that way.”
“I believe those who do have negative things to say are ignorant and lack self control.”

You honestly don’t see any contradiction between those two statements, do you?

Yes, it does matter why I don’t have children. Because you keep acting as those your decision to have children entitles you to special consideration, as though you are at a disadvantage by having children. I’m pointing out that having children is a choice that you made, and that you were (or at least should have been) aware of what that choice meant before you made it, as I am.

@ubersiren This is all reminding me of a trip to the grocery store with my family. My son refused to sit in the cart, so my husband was letting him push it while I was walking ahead picking something out. Our son was getting frustrated that he couldn’t push the cart and was whining about it… this lunatic goes up in my husbands face and says “You think that’s funny?! You think it’s funny you have a kid breaking my ear drum!?” My husband was just trying not to laugh at the ridiculousness of this guy. And multiple other patrons came over and told the guy to calm down, and told my husband and I that they loved and missed the sound of children. It was like an argument on fluther being played out lol. Oh, and even the staff stepped in to tell the guy to leave us alone.

@nikipedia All I am saying is, you have no clue what it feels like to have a child or how to parent…how can you judge what a parent does with their child if you cannot even put yourself in their shoes? Even for just a moment? Don’t you think the parent may be embarrassed or exasperated? Maybe empathy is what parents need in situations like that, instead of being called “bad parents”

@MrItty : No, they were in direct relation to one another. As in I don’t think everyone is giving me dirty looks, but the ones who do, are ignorant and whatever else. I know what I typed.

And I demand no “special” consideration. Just some consideration would be lovely.

Ah, okay, so you don’t generalize about those people, you just generalize about those people. Got it.

@casheroo: You’re not making sense. I don’t need to be in the shoes of a murderer to know that murder is not a great idea. I don’t need to be in the shoes of a janitor to know I definitely don’t want to be one. And I don’t need to be a parent to say that there are times and places where it is inappropriate to let kids scream.

You are speaking like the epitome of the entitled parent who thinks other people should accommodate your decision to have children. It’s thoughtless, inconsiderate, selfish, and rude.

@MrItty : Brilliant. That’s what I meant. I knew you’d figure it out. rolls eyes

I don’t know how much more specific you want me to be. Should I say people who act like MrItty on Fluther?

Good night.

@nikipedia Did you just seriously consider being a muderer to being a parent? Because I wasn’t saying you need to empathize with a muderer…I said empathize with a parent.
I also don’t see how thinking my child can be brought out in public gasp!!! is the same as an “entitled parent.” Parents need to go places, they like to go to libraries, bookstores, coffee shops…if my kid does something bad, I’d clean it up and leave. If he is talking and walking around, why would I leave? That makes no sense to me. Kids explore, kids make noise…it’s just what they do. I don’t see how that equates to me feeling entitled. If I feel my child is being obnoxious, I apologize to the people he has a habit of going up to pretty girls and just smiling at them No one seems to mind, but I do know I should apologize for him entering their personal space. But, at the same time I feel awkward and don’t know if I should remove him for being curious or let him just be curious…because people like you just bring parents down, and make them doubt their every move when it comes to a child in public. It’s a shame. Also, I just really want to know how it seems I feel entitled?

@casheroo no one here, that I’ve seen, has complained about children “walking around and talking”, or “being curious”. We’re talking about Kids screaming, yelling, throwing tantrums. The two are not the same. Please don’t make us out to be more evil than we are.

@MrItty What is your non-parent definition of a tantrum? What kind of crying? btw, I agree with the screaming, but if my kid is screaming..he’s almost always hurt. and that’s a different story.

i think that it’s more of the occasional mother that doesn’t seem to care if her children are being well-behaved in public. i mean, i understand that not everyone can get someone to watch their kids. not everyone can control when their toddler starts screaming. but it’s more of the parents who disregard that it is annoying, and don’t even attempt to calm their kids down or discipline them.
also, i don’t think many people who aren’t parents can understand being a parent. most of the people who make those complaints probably don’t have kids, and can’t fully grasp the every day things that those parents deal with.

screaming babies in movie theatres, for example? that i will never understand.

@casheroo tantrum = screaming, yelling, fist pounding, running-in-place, hitting, etc. Normal talking is not included, nor is normal crying.

@casheroo: You seem to be having some problems with your reading comprehension skills. Let me explain what a “comparison” is. A “comparison” demonstrates a similarity between two things. For instance, an apple is like an orange because they’re both fruit.

What I did was make an “analogy. An “analogy” shows a similar relationship between two dissimilar pairs of items. For instance, apples are like oranges in the same way that beets are like carrots.

The special thing you seem to be missing about an analogy is that it in no way suggests that an apple is like a beet or a carrot.

Get it?

@tiffyandthewall Those are completely different scenarios than what I’m imagining. I always try to calm my son down, I give him a chance. Depending on the type of tantrum..
like: If he was being a brat before we went out, and we go into let’s say Starbucks, and he starts crying or throughs himself to the ground, we’re outta there. Another example, if we’re in a restaurant, and he’s hungry and needs food, we either bring a snack with us or ask for breaks immediately or else he will have a meltdown. We can walk him around outside usually, if the food is taking too long, and he’ll be okay. But, there are those moments where he will scream and cry for food.
I do know those types of parents, usually at parks…they completely ignore the kid and it does baffle me. I never ignore my child, because if he’s whining or crying…something is wrong with him, be it he’s tired, hungry or overstimulated…some parents don’t look out for these things. I spend all day with my son, so I know him pretty darn well and I know the best times to take him out, and when he shouldn’t be out.

@nikipedia Now you’re just being bitchy. What happened to having a “mature discussion”?

@casheroo I, at least, have absolutely no problem with what you describe. I do have a problem with the “other” kind of parent, and I’m thrilled to see that we can at least agree on the fact that that “other” kind of parent does indeed exist.

I don’t think mom is a dirty word. The other question that was dealing with moms at work…I think people want to know they are being treated FAIRLY, so if it seems like someone is getting away with something that others aren’t, then I don’t care what the reason is, fair is fair. If a company/boss is going to be flexible for people with children, then the company better be flexible period; for people with and without children.

As for kids screaming in public, generally I am very tolerant of this, I understand that sometimes it is out of the parents control, I do not judge the mother immediately. But, I have seen infants cry and cry and cry, and it is obvious that if the mom stood up and carried the baby, the baby would stop, the baby is reaching for their mom. If you are in a public place—pick up your kid. Not so much because you are bothering me, but because it is upsetting to see a child so uncomfortable. I know parents that expect their kids to behave, but I think the parent should be realistic about their childs attention span and be sure they bring along something to occupy the child’s attention. Most parents do this I think, but there are some who don’t.

In a restaurant you get a few minutes to calm down your baby or child, but he/she can’t be crying for 10 minutes. I have to say that it is very rare that I see or hear children carrying on in public, so it is not a big issue to me. Mostly, I worry that the mom is worried…that the mother is stressed out that her kids are bothering others. But after reading this discussion I see that is not always the case, sometimes the mother is not really thinking about the people around her. Still, especially on planes, I mean the mother can’t really do anything, we understand. I have to say with all of the flying I do I have only been on one flight where a young child cried for a long time.

The minivan part of the question—well, yes, if you are not using your right of way, or taking your eyes off the road to look at your kids, I do judge that. You have other lives besides yours that you are affecting or putting in danger.

By the way, years ago a woman I had met from Holland said that the USA was so much more accepting in her opinion of children being in restaurants and other public places. Not sure if other Europeans feel that way?

@MrItty I wish I had the time or patience to pick apart posts I don’t agree with and argue with them line by line.

However, I will say that you are absolutely right. I do know my children very well. I know that the vast majority of the time I can expect them to behave well in public. No parent can predict with 100% accuracy that their children will always be perfect in public. So, should I stay home with them all the time until they are adults? How will they learn, if they don’t sometimes make mistakes?

And I’m sorry, but if you are at Friendly’s on a Saturday for lunch and expect not to be bothered by children, you’re in the wrong place. If you are attempting to watch a matinee of Ice Age The Meltdown and don’t want to be disturbed by giggling children who sometimes forget to whisper or not laugh out loud, you chose the wrong movie.

My point is only that people rush to judge and be annoyed with parents who, realistically, have to take their children into public at one time or another. When I’m in a store and I see a parent having trouble juggling the shopping while trying to keep a toddler from annoying other shoppers, I don’t sigh and glare and think, “Why can’t that kid sit still and be more like my kid?” I try to help. I ask my kids to smile at the upset toddler, make faces, get the kid to laugh so the mother can at least pay for her groceries and leave. What the hell is so hard about that, instead of taking a “You have no right to bring your kid who was happy five minutes ago into this checkout lane in a public place where I have to listen to some whining for five minutes.”

I don’t think it’s too much to ask for people to at least attempt to be understanding. Sometimes I am annoyed by what other people let their kids get away with when I work so hard to teach my children not to act like that. But I don’t know those people or what their lives or like, so I mind my own business and worry about my own family.

Last time I looked, we still live in a patriarchy. Women have been and will continue to be categorized, objectified and forced into roles. There are many stereotypes, assumptions and bad opinions about women without children, as well.

just so everyone knows, i don’t know how many children i have. hookers never call, and Bolivia has a terrible phone network.

You’re so lucky Epony. Today you die!

@teh_kvlt_liberal thank God i don’t have to burden my coworkers with my sick bolivian love children. besides, most of them are working in factories themselves, i’m sure.

I think what you’re talking about reflects a certain discontent with traditional family values, perhaps not entirely unfoundedly, or the prevalent American family dynamic that “mom“s represent.

And considering American culture has some very serious problems, and that culture begins with people who begin in homes with families and sometimes “mom“s, I’d say it’s not entirely unfounded.

But, as a rule, generalizing is wrong.

@casheroo: I think you are using a more sensitive measure for “bad behavior” than I do. You are assuming me to be more judgmental than I actually am.

Having said that, I totally judge people I perceive as rude. I do think parents should have the same respect for me that I have for others when I am out with a young child.

Though what you consider a bad parent (child abusers) I think goes far beyond simply “bad parenting”. I think they are at another level entirely of badness. And yes, I do consider those who abuse their children to be vile.

[mod says] I’d just like to remind everyone to keep it civil, please.

I think you’re talking about several different issues here. It’s not necessarily a disdain for parenthood when people want parents to consider other people when their kid is screaming or when people are describing the circumstances of an unsafe driver or when non-parents want their emergencies (that call them away from work) to be considered emergencies, too.

There are inconsiderate parents in the world as well as considerate parents. And there are people who expect the world to bend over backwards for them and their kids while they don’t have to return the favor.

I think the most interesting part of your question has to do with the word “mom” itself, though. How many times when a whole family is out to dinner and the kid starts screaming do hear someone saying “Damn, I wish that dad would do something about that screaming kid.”? No. They expect mom to do something, though.

I expect both parents to be considerate of other people and try to teach their kids some manners in a reasonable age-appropriate way.

@MissAusten You continue to miss my point. Not once, anywhere, in this DB or any other, have I said that you or any other parent should be disallowed from taking your child out in public. What I have said is that part of the sacrifice you make by having children is putting up with the reactions of the people around you when and if your child misbehaves to the point of disrupting other people.

You yourself just got finished saying that you are sometimes annoyed by the behavior of other people’s children. So how on earth can you expect anyone else to never be annoyed by the behavior of your children?

The fact that it is a child causing me to not enjoy the restaurant or movie as much as I feel entitled to does not change the fact that I’m not enjoying the restaurant or movie as much as I feel I’m entitled to. The $50 you paid to go to the movie or the restaurant was not paid to me. I made no agreement with you that if you pay money to watch this movie or eat at this restaurant, that I will not get aggravated when your child disrupts the experience. If I pay my hard-earned money for an entertaining evening, and that evening is not all that it could be, I’m going to be annoyed. So is everyone else on the planet. The fact that the disruption comes from a child does not change that fact. As the parent who decided to bring the child to that location, I’m sorry, but yes, it is your responsibility to accept the fact that I’m going to give you a dirty look.

If I can deal with the disruption with nothing more than a dirty look, you can deal with the dirty look with nothing more than an apologetic look.

lol

^^

@cyndyh : Of course we should be considerate of other people. I absolutely believe that should go in all directions. But as someone mentioned above, nobody can predict when their child is going to have a meltdown in the grocery store. A parent would have to have a lot of time on his/her hands to be able to leave the store when their kid is in full tantrum mode, wait for him to calm down, then return to shopping.

I think what a lot of people who don’t have children don’t see behind the scenes is that letting the kid cry it out is actually a completely appropriate and effective way to end the tantrum once and for all. Rather than catering to the kid and stopping what you’re doing for them, ignore the behavior and it’s likely to become less frequent. It’s not that we’re being inconsiderate to other shoppers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. It’s for the grand scheme of things that we’re teaching our kids that no matter how much they fuss, it’s not going to make a difference, proving the tantrum method ineffective.

This has worked for me very well, personally. My two year old is generally very well-behaved in public. What MrItty didn’t mention about our previous debate was that I said that my son was actually very well behaved at the 3½ hour graduation ceremony. I was more concerned for his comfort than him flipping out and disturbing others. How did he get this way? By letting him know that I wasn’t going to cave at every whimper. He’s had one or two incidents, but if I don’t pay it much attention, it fades. I realize in that 5 minutes that he is crying that people are wondering why the hell I’m not shushing him, but that’s not my problem. I am doing my job by not giving in and spoiling him.

@MrItty Yes, I said I am sometimes annoyed by what other people allow their children to get away with. THEN I said I don’t know what those peoples’ lives are like and I try to mind my own business.

I’m not going to follow this thread any more. I think it’s impossible to debate the realities of parenting with people who don’t have children. While I know that kids in public can cause a disturbance, I also know that someone who can’t control themselves enough to refrain from giving dirty looks and instead try to be helpful or understanding is not someone I wish to have anything to do with.

Also, I apologize if my posts on this subject have been angrier than usual. It’s been a stressful couple of days, my husband has been out of town for almost two weeks and will be gone at least another month. The sleep deprivation has kicked in as well. Hope I didn’t offend anyone.

I agree with a lot of what @EmpressPixie has said.

I don’t have children myself but I work with children and so I am rather used to the various moods that they have. There are times when I am VERY sympathetic towards the parent ie: when they are in the supermarket and the kid is having a major temper tantrum. I certainly don’t think badly of the parent for that. Supermarkets aren’t fun places for kids (I remember HATING them as a toddler) but they must learn that they can’t always have their own way and sometimes must do things they don’t like. If parents kept their kids home all the time just in case they have a tantrum and upset a few people the kid will never learn.

HOWEVER, there are times and places where it is rude to expect other people to put up with your childs temper tantrum and the cinema (or theatre) is one of these places. I don’t care how much you have paid for your ticket if your child is being noisy and spoiling the experience for other people (who have also paid) it is common courtesy to take the child away until they have calmed down.

I remember being in a restaurant (that wasn’t particularly kid friendly) once with my Aunt who trains dogs. On table next to us where a family with a toddler who kept running around other peoples tables, making a noise and generally being a pain in the arse. The parents did nothing except the odd “Darling, come here please”. This went on for an hour and a half before we decided to leave and as we left my Aunt walked up to the family and said to the parents very politely “with all due respect, if allowed my dogs to act like that in a public place I am sure you wou look down your nose at me”. I thought I was going to wet myself for laughing!

@Leanne1986 : I agree with you. I happen to believe that there is a certain maturity level that a child must reach before taken to the movies. That’s a whole separate situation than a child having a fit somewhere else in public. I said this above, that if a parent is taking their kid to the movies before he’s ready and letting him cry through it, then you have bigger parenting problems than just the discipline issue.

@ubersiren I agree with you and most of what you have said in this post. My comment about the movies (I’m from England and it feels weird to say “the movies”!!!) was mostly aimed at what @MissAusten said about not removing the child who is making too much noise because she paid for it just like everyone else. That I don’t agree with.

Also, I forgot to say that most kid noises I have no problem with. If I’m in the cinema and I hear a child laugh (especially one of those great belly laughs that kids have) I adore it. General chatter is not a problem providing the parents do tell the kids that they should be a little quieter so as not to upset other people. It’s when a child is screaming bloody murder and, like someone else said, the parents just either ignore it or bounce the kid on their knee in hopes that the noise will stop while in a place where they are spoiling other peoples enjoyment of something (ie cinema or restaurant) that annoys me. I’m sure most parents don’t do that though.

@Leanne1986 Sorry, I should have been clear. I have kids, so I take them to movies for kids. They are all old enough to sit through a movie (my youngest is 4 and half). Being kids, they sometimes forget to whisper or not laugh out loud…just like all the other kids in the theater. So no, I am not going to up and leave. I remind them of thier manners. I know the original idea dealt with crying babies or screaming kids during a movie, in which case I would certainly leave with the child. Same thing for restaurants—we go to places that aren’t just kid friendly, but targeted mainly to kids. As long as my kids are simply acting like kids and not acting out then I don’t see a problem.

I thought I made it clear that we’re in places meant for kids when we see a movie or go out to eat, but I didn’t take into account that if you aren’t in America you might not know what Friendly’s is, or that Ice Age is a computer animated movie for kids. :) Now I really am clicking on “stop following.”

@MissAusten Before you click “stop following” I thought I’d try and get a reply in. If what you have just said is true then I don’t have a problem with your way of parenting. I did say that general kiddy noise does not bother me at all.

I also said I live in England, not in the jungle with no human contact, I know what ice age is!!!

After reading through this thread I really have to laugh. I think everyone forgets that we were all children at one time and were all probably guilty of commiting such heinous crimes as screaming, whining and general tantrum throwing in public. So let those of you who are not guilty throw the first stone. The other thing everyone seems to forget is that if you see a parent with one child chances are its probably their first and they’re still learning how to do the whole parenting thing. So getting angry at them for not removing a kid from a public place for throwing a tantrum is unfair. Everyone on here has made a go at things for the first time and probably made mistakes that have affected other people in a negative way. You probably felt embarrassed and wished the mistake would be met with forgiveness and kindness, so try and look at it the same way. Most of them are still learning. And for all the people that hate “breeders” and think people shouldn’t have children what they all seem to forget is that without children and the parents who raise them mankind would cease to exist. That child you’re getting angry at and wishing was never born might be the doctor that one day saves your life. An extreme way of putting it i know but you see where i’m going with this.

@mistered you need to re-read the thread again. Because not a single person before you even came close to getting upset or angry or “hate”-filled at the child. We are discussing parents, not children.

As for the “it’s the first, so they don’t know”, that’s BS. I’m on my 0th, and I know that you shouldn’t let a child scream and cry in a movie theatre, disrupting the other patrons. You’re asserting that if/when I have my first, I’ll somehow lose that knowledge?

As for the “mankind would cease to exist”, that’s just silly hyperbole. The population on this planet continues to grow exponentially. We don’t need people to stop having children. But we do need either A) less people to have children, or B) people to have less children. No one on this thread has suggested people shouldn’t have children.

I think it depends when and where.

I agree in some places you don’t mind witnessing a toddlers temper tantrum and understand the parent is not “caving” as someone wrote. If it is outside on a sidewalk or in a supermarket I am completely understanding. If a baby, an infant, is crying to be picked up, or seemingly very uncomfortable (I mean very young <9 months) I do not understand. They are unable to really learn the lesson that tantrums will get you nowhere, and you can’t really reson with them.

If you are in a store or restaurant you have to control your kids, it is a safety issue. If they are running around or playing on escalators, and fall down God Forbid, or hit themselves, everyone is unhappy that a child was hurt or hurt someone else, and it is a liability for the store. I was stunned when I worked at a department store how many kids did not straighten up and stop their bad behavior of walking the wrong way on escalators or just playing at the top of them. When I was a kid I might have pushed to see what I could away with when it came to my own mom, but if an adult I did not know who worked at a store told me to stop doing something, I would have stopped and been upset that I was caught by someone doing something I was not supposed to do. My mother also would never let me leave a pile of clothes in a dressing room off the hangers on the floor. BUT, I don’t think this is a “mom” issue, because the mothers do it themselves. Further, in certain restaurants I think we expect an adult quiet atmosphere, and in other ones they are more family oriented, and so I think each has a different expectation by its’ patrons.

A couple of weeks ago I was flying and a child behind me, probably 8 years old, was kicking the back of my seat. After a while I turned around and said, “when you kick the seat you are kicking my back.” The mother said, “I didn’t realize someone was up there, I’m sorry.” I said, no problem and tried to do my best to make sure the child did not feel badly, because for me that was the parent’s failure. Children are less aware of what is around them, and adults need to teach them. That plane was FULL, it is ridiculous that the mother did not assume I was in the seat, not to mention that the child was putting her shoes on the seat to kick it, which I find innapropriate. I’m not questioning that woman’s “mom” skills, but her own judgement of what is acceptable behavior.

@MrItty so i’m assuming what you’re saying is that loud distracting noises in general when you’re out in public really get on your nerves. Its probably not limited to just the screaming baby or toddler and they’re undiscipling parents. The person laughing obnoxiously in the theater, or the teenage girl talking really loud on her cell phone to her friend in the line at the store (who are both old enough to know they should be considerate of other people around them), or the dog that won’t stopping barking late at night (you know that’s not their fault its just instinct so their owners should put a muzzle on them). Annoying things are everywhere and just because YOU know they shouldn’t be that way doesn’t mean they’re going to stop on their own or by someone else’s power. So basically you should either lock yourself away in a sound proof room so nothing inconsiderate can ever bother you again or you can learn some patience and just deal with it. Unless you’re invisible and complete devoid of any sound what so ever I’m sure there’s something about YOU that offends someone somewhere in this world so why don’t you get over yourself and start being more tolerant.

@mistered what a phenomenally silly opinion. Something is aggravating, so I should learn to not mind being aggravated? Perhaps you don’t understand the meaning of the word “aggrevating”. It is “that which causes aggrevation”.

People who are inconsiderate should expect to be told that they are being inconsiderate, and to be shunned if they decide not to care that they’re inconsiderate.

If you’re rude to me, no, I’m not going to just ignore you and walk away. I’m going to confront you, tell you you’re rude, and ask you to knock it off. That’s how adults act in the real world, you see.

@mistered were? some people are still whining and throwing tantrums in public.

@MrItty some people would consider THAT behavior rude, its just as loud and obnoxious as the the intiating rude behavior so essentially you’re just perpetuating the aggrivation for the people around you, also you’re exhibiting the same selfish behavior as the initial rude behavior because you’re only concerned about YOUR aggrivation and stopping that. No one said you have to walk away, just learn to ignore. Inconsiderate people will always be that way, the sooner you learn to deal with it the sooner you’ll stop being such a bitter small person.

@mistered this was a perfectly civil conversation before you decided to come along. If you’d care to participate without the personal insults, I’d be happy to continue the debate with you. Until then, you’re really not worth talking to.

@ubersiren : We agree we should all be considerate of one another. :^>

There are a few things you’ve said that I do disagree with. It’s not caving to walk a kid out of a store when they’re throwing a tantrum. It’s one way of diverting the bad behavior. Caving would be to buy them a toy or treat they’re screaming for. If you’re letting a kid scream it out in a grocery store you are being inconsiderate in that moment to other shoppers and to your kid in the long term. The kid is not learning anything positive from the experience. They learn that it’s ok to throw a tantrum and they get the attention of other people for it. They may be ignored by you or they may not, but they’re getting a payoff for throwing the tantrum anyway. Basically, when I see a kid screaming in a store I’m just thinking “please, do something”.

A parent doesn’t have to have “a lot of time on their hands” to divert the bad behavior. It’s a part of being a parent. It’s the time it takes to be a parent. You know when you take your kid to the store that it may very well take more time than if you went alone. If your argument for not removing the kid from the situation is the time it takes, we’re back to discussing the convenience of the parent and not what’s best for the kid or for the consideration of other people.

Letting a 2 year old cry in public for 5 minutes is an eternity to them and to everyone else around. And at a long ceremony it’s not fair to the kid to expect them to sit still through the whole thing. You do need to walk them around. That’s not caving. It’s age-appropriate.

I’ve raised two kids, and I agree with a lot of what’s said above by people without kids. Does it make a difference to you if those words come from someone who has raised two kids? If so, then here you go. :^> If not, then it’s not fair to call the opinions of non-parents immaterial to the discussion.

@MrItty must have hit a nerve

@mistered calling me “small” and “bitter” instead of discussing the topic civilly? Yeah, that hits a nerve. Shocking, I know, that I’d rather not bother with people like you.

@MrItty I do have a child, and yes that child screams in public from time to time. And as a parent sometimes you’re face with scenarios where you can’t just leave. If i’m half way through having an entire cart of groceries being rung up, and there’s three people behind me and my child is screaming and throwing a tantrum I can’t just say to the cashier and those three other people “Hey hold on a second, I have to take my son outside to calm him down because his screaming is aggrivating and inconsiderate to you and the other people waiting in line” and Ubersiren is right, you can’t just throw a treat at them to get them to calm down, all it does is reinforce the behavior. So its really not as cut and dry as you make it out to be, and not all parents are the inconsiderate ones you’re grouping them with. There are other people in this world besides you and for you to go up to someone when they’re already dealing with a screaming child and tell them to shut their kid up because its bothering you is in my opinion more inconsiderate. Learn to deal with them and you won’t die of high blood pressure at age 47.

@mistered Could you please point out which of my posts and/or opinions you think you’re disagreeing with? Nothing I’ve said here contradicts anything in your post.

@cyndyh : Ok. Since you clearly didn’t read the graduation ceremony thread, I’ll explain to you and anyone else who didn’t read it- I DID walk him around for nearly the entire 3 hours. I don’t know what was said to make you think I didn’t. Please stick to what you know.

It does make a difference that you have kids because it’s insider perspective. But I stick by my methods as they have proven successful. I’m not going to leave a cart full of groceries to take my kid outside (which is probably what he wants most of all) to let him cool off. I’m not talking about denying him a toy or whatever. My child rarely throws a fit, and when it happens, it’s seconds, as long as I ignore it.

@cyndyh Well said GA.

I would guess/wonder that many times people who do not care that their children are disturbing others, probably themselves don’t care if they themselves bother other people, or are less aware of the people around them. I have an example that does not involve a screaming kid. I was at the theatre several months ago and during intermission we all lined up to use the bathroom. The line backed up towards the staircase at the end of the room. There is a lounge area before you enter the bathroom, so as I appoached the threshold of the lounge area I realized there was a wide open space, I suggested to the woman in front of me that she could move the line over, because it/people were blocking the stairs behind us, people were having trouble making their way down. She looked at me like I was a piece of s@!t for saying anything to her; like I was the rude one. If it had been me, I would have thanked the person for making me aware and moved. I think some of it is cultural maybe? Whether you are willing to say something to someone you don’t know, and whether you are willing to listen to someone you don’t know in a public situation. Maybe some of it has to do with if you were raised in a city vs. the suburbs, etc. The more densely populated an area is, the higher the expectation is for people to conduct themselves in a specific way I think? But maybe my assumption is wrong.

@JLeslie : Let me ask you this – How do you know that it doesn’t bother them that they may be disturbing others? Do you honestly think that’s what’s going on inside their heads? They don’t care if it bothers people? Do you think it doesn’t drive a parent simply bat shit crazy that they are having trouble with their kid in public? Believe me, we’re aware, and made to feel very guilty for it.

@ubersiren i completely agree

@ubersiren: When I said this:

“Letting a 2 year old cry in public for 5 minutes is an eternity to them and to everyone else around. And at a long ceremony it’s not fair to the kid to expect them to sit still through the whole thing. You do need to walk them around. That’s not caving. It’s
age-appropriate.”

I was responding to you saying this:

“This has worked for me very well, personally. My two year old is generally very well-behaved in public. What MrItty didn’t mention about our previous debate was that I said that my son was actually very well behaved at the 3½ hour graduation ceremony. I was more concerned for his comfort than him flipping out and disturbing others. How did he get this way? By letting him know that I wasn’t going to cave at every whimper. He’s had one or two incidents, but if I don’t pay it much attention, it fades. I realize in that 5 minutes that he is crying that people are wondering why the hell I’m not shushing him, but that’s not my problem. I am doing my job by not giving in and spoiling him.”

I didn’t make any assumptions about what you actually did or didn’t do at a specific ceremony. I’m responding to what you said in this thread.

Removing a screaming kid from the situation is not spoiling him. It’s not like you’re bringing him to play on the swings when he misbehaves. You walk him outside and tell him why he’s there. It’s not fun for a kid to stand (or be held) just outside a store until he behaves. It also takes longer for the kid to get to go on to whatever else he wants to do if he knows you’re going right back into the store to finish what you have come to do. If you have to leave and then get back in line with him it takes longer for him to get to play or do whatever else he wants to do.

If you are actually dealing with seconds now, then leaving the store may not be the diverting strategy you use, but you mentioned letting the kid cry for 5 minutes above. That calls for leaving the store.

Don’t get me wrong. There are things we agree on. Not bringing a 2 year old to a movie theater is one of them. :^> It just seems that you’re rolling a lot of different issues into one ball.

This is beating a dead horse. We’re just talking in circles now- getting nowhere. There are two teams giving their own team-members GA lurve, and we’re just talking in circles, getting nowhere. What happened to the topic? This is the second time I’ve wondered about its return.

@ubersiren the topic was answered hours and hours ago. “Is ‘mom’ or ‘parent’ a dirty word?” “No.” I don’t think a single person here disagreed with that.

P.S. +1 Lurve for “we’re just talking in circles, getting nowhere”. Finally, you and I agree on something in this DB!! :-)

@JLeslie : That’s an interesting idea. I have had similar experiences to the one describe. I’ve also had experiences where the person did thank me for pointing things out to them. I think it’s similar to people who thank you for answering their kid’s question or helping their kid in some way while other people could look at the same response from you like you’re evil. Have you ever been looked at like you’re a predator for saying “hi” back to a kid? Yikes!

@ubersiren: I think, again, no “parent” isn’t a dirty word. But it’s also not horrible of people to choose something different than you in that regard. Take care.

@cyndyh There are people who think that makes you a predator? Gah! When I go out to eat, I always wave at little infants or toddlers who are staring and smiling at everyone. Hrm…. 30 year old guy, eating out alone, waving at little kids…. great. I’m probably on a list somewhere. :-P

Ha! Better look out! You could be put in the pokey for being friendly to a child. :^>

@MrItty : Ok, the topic was answered. That doesn’t answer my question- where did that topic go.

@cyndyh : I didn’t say that it’s horrible of people who don’t choose to be a parent. I don’t think that at all. I sure didn’t “choose” to be the first time around.

If it’s used in the context of the Gay slang “breeder” yeah. But I mean, they do have a point, how many fucking people do we need on this planet, wouldn’t you want cleaner air, etc. instead?

@bumwithablackberry : What? You can’t have children and be environmentally active? I don’t get it…

@ubersiren : I’m not saying you said that or even think it. I’m talking in general like you were.

You don’t think you chose to be a parent the first time around? I’m not sure I understand you.

I didn’t intend to get pregnant the first time. To quote Bob Ross ”There are no mistakes, only happy accidents.”

@ubersiren Choosing to get pregnant != Choosing to raise a child.

Even ignoring the obvious that I have NO INTENTION of bringing into this particular debate, there is adoption.

I was thinking just that. We still choose to be parents or not when we choose to raise our kids. That’s what confused me exactly.

I like the old line from Roseanne. “You weren’t an accident. You were more of a surprise.”

@MrItty i know i guy in chinatown who’ll take that problem off your hands for like 10 big. you in?

I’m not the kind of person who could get rid of a child. It’s just not in me. I did want children eventually, it just happened sooner than I planned. I chose to have sex, so I should accept the consequences. So, in my case, becoming pregnant meant being a mother. I understand that you disagree, and why. This is subjective and I don’t think there’s any debating about it.

@eponymoushipster : Thanks for keeping this light enough so that I don’t want to rip my hair out. I need to just end this correspondence, but I suppose I’m a glutton for punishment.

Don’t start talking about punishment. Then there’ll be a whole spanking thread and it won’t be talking about the kiddies. Nobody wants that. :^>

The only dirty word is CENSORSHIP

@cyndyh- :o)

@ubersiren You did not read all of my posts. One thing I said near the top was how bad I feel for parents on planes or when their toddler has a meltdown, because most of us UNDERSTAND it is out of their control. On a plane they may not be able to do the things a parent usually does to calm a child, or their ears might be hurting, and I worry that the parent thinks everyone around is judging them, but I think the majority of us are not, I’m not. Then someone posted that they don’t care if their kid is annoying if they already paid some money to see a movie or whatever, can’t remember the example well, and thats when I realized some parents really don’t care if they are bothering other people; but as I stated, I think they probably in general don’t worry about the people around them. I don’t think all parents are all alike. Actually, I think it is VERY varied. If I had to guess I think most parents/people do care. And, I think most childen are behaved most of the time.

@cyndyh I had another experience recently where my husband and I were at a very nice resort and after using the business center we needed to return the key to the front desk. When we got there only one person was working at the desk, and she was busy with another guest. So we stayed several feet back and waited for her to finish. A gentleman who was slightly off to the side came up to us and said, “the line is over here.” My husband replied, “we are just turning in a key.” The man seemed fine with our answer and went back to the line.

Afterwards, as we walked away after we had turned in the key, my husband told me how annoyed he was with the man who told us where the line was. I couldn’t understand why. My husband felt it obnoxious for him to assume we were cutting in front of the line. I felt completely different. What if we hadn’t noticed the line? I did not assume the man thought we were cutting in front of the line, I just thought he was advising us there is a line. Here’s the thing. My husband, and his family, would be likely to say nothing if someone broke a line, and then complain afterwards about the person. I would rather give the person the opportunity to do the right thing, what if they are unaware? I also want the opportunity to do the right thing. I really think some of it is cultural.

Oh, I’m sure it’s cultural. I’m just not sure how much that has to do with city vs suburb.

For the longest time I thought it was a north vs south thing regarding who’s welcome at a picnic/daytime party and what that meant. When I was growing up in the south picnics were family events, but family events could include alcohol for the adults. In other places I’ve lived there seems to be an assumption these things should never be in the same places. Again, cultural? Sure. I’m just not sure where the dividing line lies.

@JLeslie : I apologize, as there are over a hundred responses on this thread. I don’t recall which corresponds to whom.

@ubersiren No problem, this thread is confusing, and I think some of the things I have written I was not clear on who exactly I was referring to.

@cyndyh I believe North vs. South is valid. The theatre incedent happened in the south. Did you think Southerners would be more receptive or Northermers? There was a fluther thread about whether to tell a school principal or someone in the administrative office that a report card had spelling and gramatical errors; the for itself, not something one individual teacher wrote. People had various opinions. I thought to myself that southerners would be less likely to say something, or to take it well if they were the ones being told. But, then I wondered if I was being prejudiced in that assumption? I am a Yankee :), and I would be glad someone advised me of such a mistake, to correct it for the future. A lot of people in the thread agreed that they may already be aware, but caught the mistake after it went to print.

My husband is Mexican, so there is a whole different cultural thing going on there.

When I watch British realty shows I am taken by how straight forward the judges are, and on the whole how well the contestants take the criticism…it is very different than the American shows in my opinion.

I was thinking the south seemed more inclusive of all age groups while the north or a mixed-background crowd doesn’t make that assumption. In the south a successful party has “something for everyone” and in other places parties seemed more focused on one age group. But then again it might be that big cajun families and big irish american families and big mexican american families have certain similarities that I enjoy and don’t get the chance to be around much unless I’m in the south.

@cyndyh I find this very interesting. I guess maybe you are from Louisana? Which I think is in a class by itself, different than the rest of the south. I do think the subcultures, the original ethnicity of a group, before coming to America is very significant. Jews and Italians would focus on food, Irish on alcohol (I know I am throwing out stereotypes here, but they have some validity). All of these groups found in large numbers in the north are very family oriented typically. Are you in the upper midwest now? I think of the Irish as being in New England, but then you said in the North at picnics no one drinks. I would agree with that in NY, my family would never think to have alcohol at a daytime picnic, but then my family doesn’t focus on alcohol in general.

So maybe I am back to big cities and smaller cities? Big cities might mean people have fewer children and smaller families in general. Maybe also the families are not all living near each other? I grew up in the DC area and my friends live all over the country and abroad. My college friends from Michigan are all still in Michigan and so are most of their family members, with a few exceptions. I am not making any conclusions, just stating my observations and experience from my small corner of the world.

I’ve lived in a lot of places around the states. There’s a large cajun and mexican population in Texas; large irish american families in Georgia; Missouri had more of a mix; NYC had everything; Arizona had large mexican american and other latino groups, etc. I’m in Seattle now and don’t tend to see large families with a lot of kids. But also I’m older now and only know a few people with small kids.

I don’t think the Irish side of my family has a “focus” on alcohol. If any stereotypes hold there it’s more of a focus on music and political and religious debate. But that’s another thing altogether.

I just think it’s odd that in some places if you see kids present at all it means the event has to be at one of those really bad kid-focused places (like the one with the pizza rat :^>) with nothing for anyone else. Or if you see alcohol or some foods that kids wouldn’t want to eat then there are no kids present at all. It’s more of an all-or-nothing environment instead of one of inclusion.

Large Seattle events, with a few exceptions, are pretty good at inclusion. It’s the private events that seem more age-segregated unless otherwise specifically stated.

@cyndyh Oh, I now see what you mean. I agree with you about the kid focused places. I think some of it has to do with our age and maybe less about ethnic background. Or, maybe simply socio-economic status. The upper middle class certainly has turned to utilizing these kid friendly places for parties, not sure about other classes and what they are doing. And many children in American seem to only want to eat chicken fingers and pizza. We might be able to say that new immigrant and first generation American families tend to cook from scratch more, so the children are more accustomed to eating a variety of food that is not pre-packaged, what do you think? So, back in the day, because we are old :) JK, the Irish and the Italians and the Jews were immigrants and 1st generation, and now the newer immigrants like the Mexican’s (although of course I realize some families have been here for generations) and others behave similarly as a group, but it is not really where they are from but the situation, they are not Americanized enough yet.

On this thread there were comments about how it is more acceptable in certain restaurants that are more family oriented for children to be loud, but in other restaurants unnacceptable. Do you think parents opt to go to these places, because they have less worries about disturbing the people around them? Or, simply because the kids enjoy these places so the family goes there? I think 99% of children are going to behave when they are in a public setting with extended family and friends of family around, I don’t think there should be a lot of concern for that.

Big family get together’s at someone’s home or at a park still happen, but probably not as much as in the past.

After I read this article I had to find this question again and post it. So wrong of me, but I actually laughed.

A man in Wal-Mart got irritated by a crying toddler, and when the child’s mother couldn’t get her to stop crying, he smacked the child a few times. This was a complete stranger! He was arrested and charged with cruelty to a child. If this happened to me, I don’t think I’d be able to stop myself from smacking the guy back I immediately thought of this discussion and figured some people might sympathize with the mom, and some with the man!

I’m thinking I’d have a hard time not killing the man!

Edit: Look at that dude’s expression! I hope someone puts me out of my misery if I ever become that grouchy.

@MissAusten I can picture some certain flutherers doing that. Grouchy meanies! Oh, and I would have beat the crap out of that guy, I tend not to get in shock..as that mother probably was, and I react.

@MissAusten you’d have a hard time not smacking him back? They’d have to get a gang together to pull me off him, from pummeling the man to death. You do NOT touch someone’s child. Ever. Ever.

@MissAusten That article makes me crazy, how awful. I would be upset about a mother smacking their kid to get him/her to be quiet, let alone a stranger. What a disgrace, and not effective.

I just learned that when you stop following a question, adding another comment doesn’t make you start following again. I just spent half the day wondering why no one had commented on that article!

@MrItty You’re right, I probably would have started beating on the guy and screaming my head off. Crying children can be loud, but there’s nothing like a hysterical mother to really pierce the eardrums.

I can’t imagine what would make someone snap like that. I mean, it was Wal-Mart. Couldn’t he find the earplug aisle? ~

If it’d been my child he would have been worse off than jail. That’s for sure. I don’t know how you would think anyone would sympathize with the man.

the word has become that way due to more and more parents lacking any kind of control over their children. many of them seem to act as if the only thing that id important is their child, their lives, “their” whatever.

when you see a child acting up and throwing a tantrum in public you become one of “those” moms.

when the only thing you have to bring to a conversation is a story about what your kids did you become one of “those” moms.

as someone who is a” non breeder” with young “breeder” friends it does get annoying because the barrier of things we have in common has widened

Don’t have time to read this whole thread but the only grief I encountered was disdain on the part of certain persons who thought that my decision to be a stay at home mom was a sign of lower mentality.

In the supermarket was a man pushing a cart which contained a screaming, bellowing baby. The gentleman kept repeating softly, “Don’t get excited, Albert; don’t scream, Albert; don’t yell, Albert; keep calm, Albert.”

A woman standing next to him said, “You certainly are to be commended for trying to soothe your son Albert.”

The man looked at her and said, “Lady, I’m Albert.”

@Dr_Dredd LOL.

:-)

Only the ubiquitous “soccer Mom”. Lol.

The word “mom” is not a dirty word, it is repugnant to society to actually be a mom, and see it as important to do first and foremost.