Is the Holocaust a hoax?
Asked by
w2pow2 (
490
)
September 3rd, 2009
Of course it’s not! But there are some people who claim to have air-tight evidence that it is. Can you explain their arguments and shoot them down mercilessly please?
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47 Answers
I would ask them why the Nazis left concentration camps all over central Europe if the Holocaust was a hoax. Seems like a waste to me.
Choosing to blatantly ignore historical data is a dangerous folly. If you go down that path you can tweak anything to want to justify anything you want.
Anyone who questions the Holocaust has automatically lost any last shred of dignity or credibility they may have had IMO.
There really seem to be a lot of people who claim to be descendants of people tortured and killed in Nazi Germany to be making it up. Oh, yeah and there was all the death that happened too.
I’m old. My advice is this. You will never convince crazy people that they are wrong. Seriously, don’t waste your time, logic and facts can’t cure stupid.
Spend your time hugging a loved one. At least that is worthwhile.
People who think it was a hoax are probably suffering some sort of mental illness. I have no other explanation, well…there’s also stupidity.
Their arguments generally refer to why or how people could commit such horrific acts. The fallacy behind those arguments lie in eyewitness reports and written and statistical evidence.
We have pictures, we have eyewitness acounts, we have confessions, and we have memorandums from German officials, including Hitler, much of is available to those willing to look in the right place.
Michael Shermer wrote a great book about this subject, called Denying History.
OK.
@johnpowell gets the award for best post of the day as far as I’m concerned.
JP wins the internet today.
P.S. @w2pow2, you totally had me on the title question. I saw it on the main page, went into rage mode, clicked, then read the description. +1 for you.
@Grisaille :: I thought the same thing. I was sharpening my pitchfork with my mouse.
@Grisaille Looking back at the OP’s post, I feel the intention wasn’t umm, normal. Not sure how else to describe it..
I was also entering this thread with the intention of ripping people some new assholes.
Now that I’ve calmed down, I can give a calm answer: the Nazis were known for being meticulous record-takers. They loved making notes on everything. We have these notes, even the ones pertaining to the mass murder of millions of Jews. And, as others have stated, there are the eyewitness accounts, photos, memoirs of survivors, etc.
But some people will never be convinced. That’s life. I wish I had an easier time with learning to accept that you can’t convince some people, but I guess that will come with age.
The concentration camps are really run down budget holiday homes .
I met a survivor – Janina Fischler-Martinho – as part of my work and spent a few hours hearing her experience. An amazing woman who apologised profusely for upsetting those of us with tears in our eyes.
She asked only that we never forget what she had told us.
I will never forget and each time I recount her story I feel I am giving her something back.
The denials will not remove Janina’s experience or my experience of her.
Other recent discussions on this can be found here and here.
And why would thousands of putative survivors tattoo serial numbers on their arms? For pleasure?
I don’t think anybody can seriously claim it was a hoax. But there seems to be evidence that the numbers were exagerrated. Which of course brings up two points:
1) it is not exactly the easiest thing in the world to keep track of how many people died in a war, how many of them were Jews and how many died in concentration camps (which as most people know where not only for Jews). It’s not as if the Allies had a statistitian counting the bodies, is it?
2) regardless of how many people suffered, the crimes were horrendous and on a scale never before witnessed in any war. Whether it was 700,000 or 5,800,000 people who actually died in the camps, it was far too many. And added to this are millions more (mostly civilians) who died of starvation, torture or “merely” bombings all over Europe. It was a horrible war all around, and bickering about the exact number of victims trivialises the suffering itself.
Oh comeon Jacky Jack Jack!
Before in a previous discussion you said: “And don’t get me started on the Holocaust…People in Europe have a completely different perception of what really happened in WWII than those who get their info from Hollywood movies. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, just that there is a huge difference between what really happened and what Hollywood says happened”
Well I succeeded on getting you started on it. So now I want you to throw every fact you have at me.
Is there evidence or proof that the numbers are exaggerated?
If so, then can you provide more accurate numbers?
No, I’m not going to fall in that trap.
You want me to say the Jews that died in death camps were 5 million and not 6 millions, and then 23 flutherites are going to accuse me of being a Holocaust denier, a Nazi, a Bush supporter, and god knows what else. As if 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 million people gassed to death is any less horrific than 6. And as if it really matters whether these people were Jews, gypsies, or gays (oh you didn’t know? The Nazis didn’t only gas Jews, they gassed other people too). The action itself is horrific, whichever way you look at it, and I’m certainly not going to sit here and be used as a scapegoat in this little ploy of yours.
My probelm with Hollywood remains, and has to do with how the real story of the Holocaust was tampered with and molded into a fairy tale which serves non-historical purposes. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And I want to stress this once again before the Zionist camp starts flaming me. But the modern story of the Holocaust the way it has been presented over the years has not served in healing the wounds of the past, or avoiding a similar occurence in the future. It has only served as an alibi to repeat those exact crimes all over again.
@Jack79 Be brave jack…
Nobody here thinks you’re a holocaust denier. Can I get everyone’s support on that!?
COMEON EVERYBODY LETS PEER PRESSURE HIM!!!
@w2pow2: Shouting is not the way to accomplish anything here.
@gailcalled Yeah okay that’s nice…
Now can everyone give me some support on that?
PEEEEERRRRRR PRESSSSSUUUUURRRREEEEE!!!!!!!!
(and can it really be considered yelling as it is text and not oration”)
@kibaxcheza In the land of IM’s and textuals THIS IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING .
but tech… its not lol
just ones of those things that are wrong based on technicalities. ( i just like pointing them out)
I have heard stories first-hand from my parents and grandparents who survived. Most of their family did not.They have no reason for lying. Their stories, like countless others, plus so much documentation and photographs are proof enough.
You might want to capitalize the word “Jew” next time (topics). All religions are capitalized.
@Jack79 I’m actually very interested in this “Hollywood” perception of the Holocaust. I grew up reading books about the Holocaust from a very young age. The first thing remotely related to the Holocaust from Hollywood that I was exposed to was Schindler’s List, and I don’t recall any details jumping out at me that didn’t match up with what I already knew.
Could you please post some more info about this or provide links? I’d like to know exactly what Hollywood got wrong about the Holocaust.
No, the Holocaust was a real event in which millions of Jews and Poles were executed in a racism driven frenzy or eugenics in the pursuit of the Aryan race. I can see no advantage that may be gained by pretending this was the case if it wasn’t.
They kindof know how many died cause the dug up the bodies , tho i doubt they found everybody killed . Could the number be higher
@drdoombot I think I have already answered the question adequately. To continue would serve no purpose or help anyone.
Yes, choosing to blatantly ignore historical data is a dangerous folly. In Germany, holocaust denial is even considered an illegal act. It’s one of the very few cases where the freedom of speech is restricted. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad were to visit Germany, he would have to be arrested. People can claim the moon landing was a hoax or Michael Jackson is still alive and nothing will happen, but they can’t claim the holocaust didn’t exist. It’s the law.
@drdoombot It was probably before your time but a movie you might like to see is Judgement at Nuremburg from about 1960. It addresses the question of how it happened, not from the top but by the German people and how it damaged people who did not go along.
Another film is Shoah which is 9 hours of interviews of survivors, Polish bystanders and even a guard.
The Diary of Anne Frank was more in the Hollywood archetype. They took a wonderfully honest story and schmaltzed it up. Of course the book and the later released material show real human beings not perfect human beings.
Also the Hollywood charge comes from focusing on individual stories rather than straight documentary, historical footage. We can’t really identify with hours of the footage shot by the British and American troops when they arrived at the camps, our minds can’t really process that kind of horror. We need to be able to identify with something we can recognize. The thing I found fascinating about Life is Beautiful is it’s depiction of the Germans which seemed very true to life.
There’s a Diary of Anne Frank movie? I had no idea. And Shoah did not come out of Hollywood, it was made by a Frenchman. Besides, it’s a documentary from long ago, and less likely to be “Hollywood-ized.”
Most of my exposure to the Holocaust comes from books by people like Anne Frank, Primo Levi and Elie Weisel. It is for this reason that I’m interested in learning more about whatever it is @Jack79 is talking about concerning Hollywood’s mishandling of the event. I certainly haven’t heard of it before this thread.
Oh, and @Jack79 It would serve the purpose of satisfying my curiosity and interest. Your avoidance of discussing this further seems silly.
@drdoombot – Yes, there is the one from 1959 with Millie Perkins and Shelley Winters, and then there is the 2001 movie from Disney with Hannah Taylor-Gordon and Ben Kingsley. And there is also a Japanese anime.
@drdoombot There were 2 movies and a play made from the Diary. If you read the original, you must know it was censored by Mr. Frank. He withheld some of Anne’s diary because he felt some of it was too personal. I read a more recent version edited by Miep with more added showing Anne as a normal young girl who sometimes dtdn’t get along with her mother,
By Hollywood-ized people usually mean idealized, the heroes without flaws and the villains without any doubts and facts that don’t support that are eliminated, Sophie’s Choice isn’t Hollywood-ized because survivors are supposed to live happily ever after but of course in reality, they didn’t. I’m not sure of @Jack79 ‘s definition.
Over the years, I have read quite a bit including Albert Speer’s memoir Inside the Third Reich which showed how much he knew while claiming to know nothing.
@drdoombot I will answer with an analogy so that perhaps you understand both my point as well as the reasons I do not want this to become a debate where I will be automatically be attacked, no matter what I say.
There is a 2000-year-old story that says there was a guy called Jesus who suffered and eventually died on the cross to save Mankind. Some people don’t believe this story as true, but those who do, automatically become Christians and follow a certain religion.
Now over the years this religion wages wars in the name of Christ, the Crusades and N.Ireland (a favourite subject for the original asker) being just two characteristic examples. As a reaction to the violence sprung by Christianity, a lot of people have become atheists, while others openly accuse the religion. Does any of this mean that Jesus never existed, or that His Pathos was a hoax? No, but 2000 years later people are allowed to discuss other aspects and effects of the Pathos itself.
I believe the time has not yet arrived when we can discuss the implications of the Holocaust on world history. Or the way the real events have been exploited over the years for non-historical purposes. This in no way means that the Holocaust was a hoax, or that nobody ever died in a concentration camp. I think I was clear about that.
I am also not comparing the two events, I am just using an analogy about something that can be discussed, even among Christians, and something that can’t, even among Jews. Just so people don’t start saying things like “Jesus was a Jew” or “how could you compare the suffering of a God to the suffering of mortals?” or “how can you compare the suffering of One to the suffering of Many?” and all sorts of irrelevant comments.
@Jack79
a⋅nal⋅o⋅gy /əˈnælədʒi/ –noun, plural -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biology. an analogous relationship.
4. Linguistics. a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.
Sir you have no analogy..
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I expected to be accused of a series of things, but to be accused that my analogy was not an analogy? lol…
Anyway, I hope I answered everybody’s questions. I am in no way claiming the Holocaust never happened. I am saying that the real events were exploited., often by people who had nothing to do with the victims, and for reasons that had nothing to do with the memories of those who suffered.
In exactly the same way that Jesus’ Pathos has been exploited over the centuries by priests, popes and monks who make a living out of it.
@Jack79 You wanna explain to me how Northern Ireland has EVER waged war in the name of Jesus Christ?
It is a favorite subject of mine. and even though it is a digression, I’m not going to let it go.
I’ve observed that big discussions on here tend to majorly digress. As for this discussion, a digression was inevitable.
Weren’t folks being killed in Northern Ireland because they went to the wrong church? And a Christian church at that?
Wars are not about religion, they are like most acts of violence, about power.
Of course it’s not a hoax. Anti-semites are idiots. They say it’s a hoax because they believe Jews are evil and stuff… it’s awful.
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