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drdoombot's avatar

Which is a better motivation for being a "good" person: believing or not believing in God?

Asked by drdoombot (8145points) September 4th, 2009

I ask this question because it seems to me that a good case could be made for either.

If you believe in God, your motivation is to try to live your life according to the wishes of the being that created you. The satisfaction comes in knowing you fulfilled your function in this life. Additionally, you will be rewarded in some way in an afterlife.

If you don’t believe in God, your motivation is your own humanity and the brevity of your life. Since you have so little time, you want to make your time as enjoyable for yourself and others while you are here. I might be mistaken, but I think Socrates taught that “doing good” was beneficial to oneself as well as others. (I’d be grateful if someone who knows about this could expand on it a bit.)

So the question is: which makes a better argument for why a person should be good?

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37 Answers

ShanEnri's avatar

I know people that believe in God and aren’t very good people! I think we motivate ourselves to be good people despite our beliefs!

ABoyNamedBoobs03's avatar

I think it doesn’t really matter what so ever. you’ve got plenty of fuck heads on both sides.

cwilbur's avatar

You’re proposing a false dichotomy. It’s possible to believe in God and yet do good things because you want to make things better for yourself and others, and it’s possible to not believe in God and yet do good things because you want to be rewarded for them (or not do evil things because you don’t want to be punished for them).

gciochina's avatar

Well the point is not actually believing in God is it? Believing in God means actually to stick to a set of rules. This does not make you a bad person. But consider that sometimes, in order to do some good, you have to bend the rules.

Best is to keep an open mind at all times. Remember, doing the difference between what’s good and what’s bad is a skill that we all posses. It’s just a matter of choice :)

Cheers!

BBSDTfamily's avatar

My vote is believing in God… here’s why-

Not only non-believers can make the second argument you gave… anyone can. Believing in God just gives you extra incentive.

gciochina's avatar

I believe you are also true. But… (and i really don’t want to make a big point out of this) every atrocity the inquisition has done was done under the name of GOD. this is why i said that ultimately it is just a matter of choice between good and evil ;)

Cheers and thanks for the remark!

tiffyandthewall's avatar

i don’t think it matters. i mean, if a person is basing their character on whether or not some super deity exists, they’re going to have some problems with being genuine.
i try to be a ‘good’ person because i think that’s the best you can do with your life. not because i do believe in god, or because i don’t.

benjaminlevi's avatar

In an imperfect world I think any motivation to do good is a good thing, even if it is merely done out of fear of Hell.

Harp's avatar

Surveys have shown that over 80% of the US prison population claim some religious affiliation (and this doesn’t count those who believe in God, but have no religious affiliation). That’s roughly the same as the population at large.

I don’t think either belief or non-belief will be a good predictor of moral behavior (if you define morality in non-religious terms).

cbloom8's avatar

Not believing, because you are being good to be good, not because of something else. You are doing it because it is RIGHT not because of a force or punishment.

VoodooLogic's avatar

after agreeing with @cwilbur, I’ll say it depends on the god you worship.

tinyfaery's avatar

All the truly horrible people I have known were and are religious.

YARNLADY's avatar

I don’t see that believing or not believing is the issue, the motivation is going to be whatever path the individual person chooses to take.

PandoraBoxx's avatar

“Good” is relative and subjective.

rooeytoo's avatar

There is no relationship at all in my opinion.

I agree “good” is relative and subjective.

But if you are referring to what is the general perception of a “good” person, you don’t have to believe in a god to be one. It is how you treat your fellow inhabitants of this earth that is the relevant factor.

avvooooooo's avatar

Believing in karma.

A lot of people who believe in God believe they’re the chosen ones and they can do whatever they damn well please to people who aren’t just like them. What motivation is there, if you have that attitude, to truly be a good person? Probably none.

Disc2021's avatar

I think the second one makes for a better argument but I think you sort of outlined the question in a black and white perspective – where it’s either you believe in god or you dont when really, there is such a thing as agnosticism or spirituality that doesn’t believe in god per se but other forces.

When I was in Mississippi helping to rebuild houses for a month I got into an uneasy predicament in almost direct relation to this very question. He asked me what congregation I belonged to and was baffled when I responded with a “I dont really belong to any specific, nor do I follow any organized religion”. He didn’t “argue” with me but pretty much tried to heavily impose his Christian beliefs onto me – saying that Christianity is the one and only true religion and that I should accept Christ as he was the only reason I was down there doing what I was doing. I rebutted him with a “Well actually, I’m just doing this out of humanity; I lived a very good and lucky life thus far and I wanted to help those who haven’t been so fortunate. Is it that hard to believe that I really just want to help people?” – and went on to say that I think there is something to respect about all religions and that I dont think it would be fair to put one ahead or before another. He rambled on some more and that was the last I’ve seen of him and also the last I’ve spoken to him.

That being said, I think the ethics and values to “God” worshiping religions can be very peaceful, beautiful and beneficial in themselves – but I dont think any of that is necessary for people to be “good” people or for any type of reward or supernatural approval. IF anything, people should value the time that they have on this earth and live it as well as they can because for all we know, it’s the only time we’ll ever have.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@ShanEnri People who believe in God are still human. Basing your opinion of Christians off of such a small sample is not an accurate representation of the faith. There’s a reason Jesus once told a woman “thy faith hath made thee whole”. Because it wasn’t her belief, or her trust or her anything else.. it was her faith. Those people you are talking about who aren’t good people are not strong in their faith. They are leaning more upon their own motivators.

@Harp I wouldn’t trust those stats any farther than I could throw a paper nickle. What people put on surveys and what people do in real life are world’s apart. If nearly 90% of the population were truly , genuinely believers in a faith that desires for them to be “good” people than we wouldn’t have the problems we do. If you remove the percentage of people who believe that people of other faiths should die, remove the percentage of people who only filled out the survey and never do anything with their “belief”, remove the percentage of people who put down what they grew up as and not what they are and remove the percentage of people who dip their toes into their religion but don’t actively pursue the lifestyle it promotes you are left with a much much smaller number. I never did like stats because they are too rigid. They don’t account for the complexities of reality in all cases.

@cbloom8 It’s a common misconception that believers do something to avoid punishment (depending on the belief system). As a Christian, I believe we do good things because faith without works is dead. If no one can see how benevolent you’ve become than no one sees what brought you to that point (God).

I believe people can choose to be good whether or not they believe in God, but I also believe people will realize a far far greater “goodness” if they were to believe. It makes being good about so much more than just being good.

If you are not a believer in God than we are nothing more than a bubbling brew of evolving chemicals anyway. What purpose do we have beyond existing at that point?

Harp's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater You’re talking about a level of faith beyond what I believe @drdoombot was implying in his question. He’s asking about believing in God vs. not believing in God. One can certainly believe in God’s existence without allowing that belief to transform one’s life.

mascarraaa's avatar

I don’t think it matters much because a lot of people don’t believe in God and they are good people. But then again there’s the ones that believe and are not good in the whole meaning of the word.Maybe it just depends on how you think life should be lived :)

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

There is another example that doesn’t require religion per se. E.G. In the army I live by the creed of the non-commissioned officer. Many people of my rank know the creed, recite the creed when prompted, but don’t see it as anything more than fancy wording of an empty idea. I see it as a creed to live by. It promotes the seven core army values and lays down a clear guide for an NCO. So while some NCO’s can be good NCO’s without knowing or following the creed, I think those that do have a much more robust compass with which to navigate. Perhaps that only means something to those of you who are also in the military.

Zuma's avatar

I don’t think that believing in God makes you any more moral person than someone who doesn’t. What makes a person moral their love of doing good for it’s own sake, not because the live in fear of being punished.

I’m reading a book now called Spare the Child which is about the correlation between the religious fundamentalism and corporal punishment. Apparently, Christian fundamentalists feel that it is their religious duty to beat their children, break their wills, and generally, coerce, intimidate, terrorize and otherwise instill the fear of God in them. Unfortunately, this emphasis on punishment tends to breed an unhealthy preoccupation with sin and salvation that makes them less able to relate to their fellow human beings in a moral way. It also makes them authoritarian, untrusting and unloving.

In another forum like this someone asked, “If God told you to kill your child (like Abraham and Issac) would you do it?” Everyone said no, Christians and atheists alike, except for the born-again Christians who answered. They all replied coolly and matter of factly that they would have no trouble killing their children. There was a complete disconnect with the human world around the. None of them was in the least perturbed (if it registered at all) that they would have to watch their children suffer and die.

Their main concern was whether or not it was “really” God telling them to do the deed. Unlike everyone else, it didn’t seem to occur to them that they would have to witness the look of shock and betrayal on the child’s face when they cut his throat and watched the life drain out of his eyes. The born-again folks were so caught up in their reverie of being in with God, that they didn’t even consider such practical matters as what they were going to do with the body and all the blood; what they would tell the police, or the prospect of spending the rest of their lives in prison.

What was really disturbing was just how ordinary these folks were, and how all four of them came to the same decision independently with the very same line of reasoning and rationalizations. What was even more jaw-dropping was that the fundamentalists who joined in the discussion later defended them, and tried to make it out that it was somehow our problem that we found it morally objectionable for them to killing their children for any reason.

How is doing good beneficial to yourself? Its beneficial in the same way that loving someone is beneficial. Its not what you get in return, although that is a pleasure and a blessing, it is loving someone is enjoyable all by itself.

Qingu's avatar

The question should have specified which god, as different gods have different moral codes, and thus different conceptions of what it means to be “good.”

For example, the god worshipped by Baha’is is sort of a hippie god who just wants humans to be nice to each other. He also apparently doesn’t like alcohol. Zeus is sort of an ambivalent god; believing in him means you mostly want to avoid pissing him off, so uphold your contracts and oaths and give him an occasional sacrifice.

The god of the Bible, Yahweh, is the only god I know of to actually command genocide (Dt. 20:16, all of Joshua). He also allows (Lev 25:45) and commands (Dt. 20:10) slavery, where you can beat your slave as much as the Romans beat Jesus before they crucified him (Exodus 21:22). He also commands rape victims to marry their rapists (Dt. 22:28). I don’t think believing in this god would make you a better person because I find this moral code to be repugnant and barbaric. Maybe Yahweh-worshippers feel differently.

In my opinion, basing your morals on a god (i.e. a character in a religious text) is just an act of intellectual and moral cowardice. It shows that you are too childish to figure out right from wrong on your own. Instead of a parent telling you what to do, you rely on a mythical father-figure in an ancient text. Imagine if humanity just did whatever our parents told us to do generation after generation—we’d still have slaves, we would still stone homosexuals to death, and women would be considered the property of men. Our conception of right and wrong has changed—for the better. And it’s only been able to improve because people question the morals handed down in religion and its god characters.

Zuma's avatar

@Qinqu “In my opinion, basing your morals on a god… is just an act of intellectual and moral cowardice.”

I think you are being just a little bit harsh. For many Christian fundamentalists, there isn’t much choice at all, much less an intellectual one. When you harshly discipline kids from infancy, in a deliberate and sometimes desperate attempt to break their wills and instill unquestioning obedience and a literal fear of God in them, they may never become consciously aware of the source of the fears and anxieties that seem to hold their beliefs in place. Some seem to develop intellectual blind spots and an inability to reason analytically when the subject drifts toward some deeply held belief.

If you talk to people (like Harp) who have grown up in a strict Christian home, it almost requires a kind of conversion experience to snap them out of it.

Qingu's avatar

You think I’m being too harsh, I think you’re being too nice. :)

If we argue about this, it’s going to boil down to determinism and memes. And in a sense I agree with your point: our brains are just receptacles for ideas, and if you’re inundated with certain kinds of ideas, you can’t really “choose” to give them up. Of course, this also means that freethinkers like us don’t make real choices either; we’re just operating based on our memetic software, the same as religious folks. So it seems like a moot point to point out that religious people are victims of their cultural circumstances. Everyone is.

FireMadeFlesh's avatar

Neither. The existence of a deity, or the belief thereof, is entirely irrelevant in terms of the capacity of a person to act as a civilised, decent person. It is the way you behave as a result of your beliefs that matters. Both approaches have admirable advocates and frightening advocates.

mattbrowne's avatar

What matters is the moral framework. Religious ones are not necessarily better. The most important aspect however is whether people actually walk the talk whatever the belief system.

pathfinder's avatar

The religion is for us to not feel the same way.

JLeslie's avatar

It doesn’t matter why. Both are fine. One is not better than the other.

ShanEnri's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater I was not basing an entire faith off of a few people! I was making a point!

wundayatta's avatar

Let’s assume that the notion of good remains the same whether you believe in God or not. Studies show that intrinsic motivation works better over the long term when compared to extrinsic motivation. If this is true, then using God to motivate good behavior is only good as long as people believe God is there to punish them should they go wrong. If belief ever fails, then, to the extent that believers have no intrinsic motivation, they will take advantage of the end to perceived punishment to do bad.

However, folks who are intrinsically motivated, carry their understanding that doing good is the right thing to do, no matter what their external circumstances are. They have figured out why doing good is good. They are not doing it for fear of punishment. They will never lose there desire to do good the way that believers will should their belief fail.

Now, I’m sure that many, perhaps most believers will eventually develop some intrinsic motivation to do good, even though the initial desire was motivated by punishment. But there will be a few who never develop intrinsic motivation, and once the fear of punishment is gone, they will see no reason not to do bad. This can not happen with folks who have always only had intrinsic motivation.

Now, people will not always have intrinsic motivation. They will have to learn it, and this will take a while. So children will be more likely to do bad things. There’s a learning curve about punishment, too, so it is doubtful that children in either system will be much different. However, to the extent that intrinsic motivate takes longer to learn something when compared to extrinsic motivation, children learning intrinsic motivation will do bad longer.

The other problem with extrinsic motivation is that it requires rules to teach people. You are not really teaching people to think for themselves. So, the instant something that is not covered by a rule shows up in the believer’s life, they will not be equipped to determine good from bad.

The intrinsically motivated person will always have a better algorithm for choosing good than the extrinsically motivated person. So, where it is not easy to decide between good and bad (or better and worse), non-believers will make better choices. Since the world is getting increasingly complex, and determining the right thing to do is getting much more difficult, training people to think for themselves, instead of relying on external rules, will make much better decisions.

To the extent that believers rely on rules instead of thinking things through, they are less well equipped for the modern world. This is why it is becoming increasingly dangerous to have people around who don’t think for themselves, or who think for themselves with a lower capability.

People who grow up in rules-based systems will always be at a disadvantage in determining right from wrong. Most will develop some intrinsic system for making those choices, but fewer will than people who grow up in non-rules based systems. To the extent that believers operate in rules-based systems more than those coming from non-rules based systems, the extrinsic learners will make poorer decisions when faced with morally ambiguous situations.

We are coming closer to the time where we can no longer afford to have people operating from rules instead of from their own choices. Rules-based religions and other rules-based organizations must either change or go away if humanity is to do well in the future.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

recently I read an interesting article where it stated that if a person is emotionally and intellectually undeveloped, then no matter their beliefs, they will not do good things with them…so you can be a raving religious lunatic or a raving atheist lunatic…

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir and the most dangerous types are those who are intellectually developed, even brilliant, but emotionally undeveloped. The Hannibal Lector type.

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

From a motivational standpoint, the person who does good for its own sake is in a better position than one does does the same good expecting reward or avoidance of punishment in an afterlife. As @Qingu stated, religious beliefs can lead to antisocial behaviour as many religions instruct the faithful to switch off their reason in matters of faith and morals: blind obedience to the priest or the book.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Having read, and reread the title several times to be sure to give you the best answer, by how you wrote it, what is the better motivation for a person to be a ”good person”. In short, either, a person that doesn’t believe in God would do what is ”good” in their society, but it all falls back mostly on how doing it serves them. And what is ”good” in downtown Bagdad is not the same ”good” in downtown New York, so this good is nebulous and arbitrary and cannot be said to actually be good or not. If I do good in something or someone it is because I want to be seen in some favorable light or I am thinking something beneficial by way of goods or services will come back to me. If me doing good will have someone like it and thus do me a good change, the de facto reason was to not have someone want to do ill to me but to exchange me good. A belief in God, your goodness is done as a reasonable service to Him who by His own blood allowed you to reconnect in a right relationship with Him, and if part of doing that is to do good to other’s then it is a win-win.

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