Social Question

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

What is the best way to prevent rape in our society?

Asked by Simone_De_Beauvoir (38868 points ) September 10th, 2009

For years we’ve warned women about how they should dress and act and be careful to avoid getting raped – it’s the whole ‘blame the victim’ ideology (and yes, I realize men, too, get raped as do trans people)...this hasn’t worked all that much…this article suggests another way…

http://jezebel.com/5355724/what-if-keeping-women-safe-meant-educating-men

which I think is a good idea

do you think we should be doing a combination of the two above or something entirely different to prevent rape? should we focus on gender norms, sexism, the media, social institutions, race politics, power dynamics, etc?

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136 Answers

YARNLADY's avatar

There is no effective way to prevent a crime of any kind other than never being in a situation that would allow it to happen. Criminals are everywhere and it is up to each of us to try to protect ourselves.

From what I can see, society is doing it’s part to make sure the crime is recognized for what it is, and there are many who will not or can not get the message.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@YARNLADY well a lot of other crime is because of economic need – it’s not the same…a crime like rape is for a sociological need…we can change all of these things

marinelife's avatar

I think education of men can be helpful in cutting down on rape and domestic violence.

@YARNLADY It is not possible to “never be in a situation to allow it to happen.” What about the women who are raped and or murdered in their beds in their homes?

kibaxcheza's avatar

carry mace

drdoombot's avatar

I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I ever have a daughter, she is going to be well-educated in self-defense. The best way to prevent rape is to be prepared to respond with instinct and violence.

Response moderated
Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@drdoombot some rape as @Marina points out isn’t sudden and is not by a stranger…what then?

hug_of_war's avatar

I was molested on a church-funded trip. A conservative baptist church, so I certainly didn’t think I was putting myself in a risky situation

drdoombot's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Since I can’t educate the men my potential future daughter might date, the best I can do is to educate her on how to defend herself and how to say no when she doesn’t want to do something.

I’m a man, but I still think men are animals. If they act out of line, they need to be put down by force, and hard.

YARNLADY's avatar

To all the above with my name on it – You have all agreed with me, so why the animosity?

kibaxcheza's avatar

Dude, i knew this girl when i was in a sword fighting class ( not fencing, korean sword fighting) who was getting messed with by one of her friends ( in class). So she waited till her was done “being funny” and she grabbed his hand and flipped his ass. It was so funny.

But self defense would still be a valid option. This girl up where i live was at a party at my house, this guy had her pinned to the wall, not letting her go and said that “it would be fun”. I walked up said “hi” he turned and a knocked him to the ground. In many cases, violence will bring rape to a quick end. The only real cases i can think of that it wouldnt be effective, is if she was ruthied.

But seriously, Its easier to say “Im sorry, but you wouldnt take no for an answer” then it is to say “sorry, I didnt know what i was doing”.

avvooooooo's avatar

Ignorance on display here by people who have never, and who will never, have to deal with this is sickening.

drdoombot's avatar

@YARNLADY They’re not agreeing with you. They are saying that rape can happen in all kinds of situations, so simply “avoiding” those situations is not a feasible way to prevent rape.

Response moderated
Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@avvooooooo I realize this is a trigger topic, but ease up…you’re monopolizing and making it difficult for people to have a discussion

kibaxcheza's avatar

@avvooooooo

and people say im aggressive, sheesh.

avvooooooo's avatar

@kibaxcheza No. “self defense would still be a valid option” is incorrect.

rooeytoo's avatar

It is such a multi-faceted problem. I think the example of this is wherever you have a military base, you will find strip clubs nearby. I have always thought how difficult it is for the women in the military to be taken seriously when across the street women are taking off their clothes for money.

So step 1 is to educate women that they are worth more than making themselves objects of pleasure for men.

Step 2 I agree with @drdoombot women should know self defense, won’t help in all cases but will in lots.

Step 3 the attitude of men towards women has to change but I don’t think it can happen until step 1 is addressed.

I know there are many more things that need to be done, but these are the first baby steps in my mind.

The way it is addressed in court is also an issue, but a tricky one because women can use the cry of rape unfairly as well. I wish there were a simple answer.

augustlan's avatar

[mod says] Personal attacks are not permitted and have been removed. Flame off, people.

kibaxcheza's avatar

It really is….. Are you really trying to say that something you can do to get yourself out of a situation like that ISNT a valid option?

If i was about to get rapped, i would punch, claw, bite, ANYTHING. You cant let that kinda (Exploit Deleted) happen just because you know who’s doing it.

I stand firm in my answer of learning how to defend yourself.

YARNLADY's avatar

So what part of “there is no effective way to prevent a crime” is not clear? Short or locking away every single girl and boy, man and woman, it is not possible. Apparently I am not making my self clear here.

avvooooooo's avatar

1 out of every 6 American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).

Approximately 73% of rape victims know their assailants.

38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.

In 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault.

Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted.

More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occurred within 1 mile of their home or at their home.

* 4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
* 2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
* 1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.

All statistics are from http://rainn.org/statistics.

avvooooooo's avatar

@YARNLADY What you fail to understand is that there is no way to simply stay out of situations where someone is likely to get raped. Doing this will NOT prevent rapes because they happen all over the place. Most are not predictable.

Is there ANYTHING that I’ve written in this statement that’s unclear?

teh_kvlt_liberal's avatar

Removed by me

avvooooooo's avatar

@kibaxcheza As someone who will likely never be raped, your opinion on what is and isn’t possible when one is faced with this situation is invalid. You have no idea what its like to be raped, nor what one is able to do in that circumstance.

Do you really think, with everything you’ve seen of me here, that I wouldn’t have done everything I could to prevent what happened to me? Do you really think that if that was all it took that it would have happened?

dpworkin's avatar

In my opinion rape is a violent act, generally perpetrated by men with profound mental disturbances known as personality disorders, specifically Antisocial Personality Disorder, also known as sociopathy. As of today there is no known treatment for this disorder.

The only deterrent to rape is protection (such as armed defense, a trained dog, an escort or bodyguard, or a police presence) and/or incarceration.

There is no evidence that rape victims could have deterred their attacks by having dressed, behaved or appeared differently.

YARNLADY's avatar

@avvooooooo—How is that not exactly what I said?—

peyton_farquhar's avatar

@avvooooooo

@YARNLADY never suggested that it was possible to entirely avoid dangerous situations, just that it was the ONLY way to completely safeguard against dangerous situations. Chill the fuck out, and don’t assume that the people in here haven’t experienced what you have or never will experience it.

ubersiren's avatar

Maybe we can never “prevent” it, but perhaps we could teach our kids some self defense.

@YARNLADY : Once again, I agree with you- and they are saying the same thing you said, but I see the confusion.

avvooooooo's avatar

@YARNLADY You said “There is no effective way to prevent a crime of any kind other than never being in a situation that would allow it to happen.”

There is no way to “never be in a situation that would allow it to happen.” In order for that to happen, you’d have to be dead. And even then, with necrophiliacs out there, there’s no guarantee.

ubersiren's avatar

@avvooooooo : That’s what she’s saying! She’s saying that it can never happen! Her very next sentence is “Criminals are everywhere…”

kibaxcheza's avatar

@avvooooooo Im not saying that you personally could or couldnt do it. In every situation there is the fight of flight mechanism. Unless you have trained your body and mind to act in violence, you wont. And once again this excludes situations where the victim is unconscious. Please dont think that what im saying is like “this is the be all end all solution”, im just saying that it is something that wouldnt hurt…. or to better word it… may help… cuz its kinda ment to hurt….

P.s. the end of your last post was rather comical

YARNLADY's avatar

@avvooooooo If a person was never anywhere another person, ever, ever, they could not be hurt. In our world, since that cannot/will not happen, they must do what they can to protect themselves, and hope that will be enough – as some already know – it isn’t always enough.

aprilsimnel's avatar

There are always going to be people out to hurt others in order to feel powerful, if only for a few moments, or to discharge anger or what have you, no matter how many outreach programs there are that target men, never mind alpha male college boys. I was assaulted, and I was a toddler. In my own home. If someone wants to do something, they are going to do it, for better or for worse. I’m sure the man who hurt me knew that what he was doing was wrong, and he did it anyway. So then what?

dpworkin's avatar

Allow me to note that through personal experience I happen to know that some sexual predators target blind women specifically because they know that dog guides are not socialized to be physically protective, and that they can often take the woman by surprise. My question, I guess, is how someone can “avoid”, e.g. being blind which is the proximate cause of the type of attack I am discussing.

avvooooooo's avatar

The next line, “Criminals are everywhere and it is up to each of us to try to protect ourselves.” assumes that protecting ourselves against rape possible. Combined with the first, its tantamount to saying that people just aren’t taking the precautions they need to, so they’re raped.

kibaxcheza's avatar

@pdworkin which is why i believe all dogs should be trained to notice aggressive behaviors…. which is also why Jag has been trained to bark and everything on our property at night. Prevented my house from being broken into 3 different times

ubersiren's avatar

@pdworkin : That’s horrible. I never thought about that. Is this a trend that’s common everywhere or just where you are? If I was blind, I’d carry a knife.

kibaxcheza's avatar

@ubersiren wouldnt really help… you pull it out of your pocket and… Which way is it pointing? is it upside down? where is the assilent? its no longer in my hands, where did it go? does he have it?

YARNLADY's avatar

@avvooooooo If my suggestion doesn’t work, and sometimes it does not – what do you suggest? What is your answer to this question?

dpworkin's avatar

Dog guides, which are trained to guide the blind, cannot also be aggressive. That would be incompatible with their most important duty.

kibaxcheza's avatar

Saw a dog on the DC metro help his master get on the RED line. Dogs are color blind right? some guy stood really close to him and the dog stared him down with its fur standing on end…...

not even joking

casheroo's avatar

I had never heard of this, but I think it would be helpful in preventing certain types of rape..I’m thinking maybe if the guy that raped me had been “educated” he would not have forced himself onto me, and known that my actions meant no, even if I didn’t say the word. I don’t know if it has a name, but I’d call it “social rape” where you are acquaintances and the person just doesn’t stop when a guy really should just stop.

This would need to be taught to middle school aged boys, because they are starting so young.

dpworkin's avatar

I don’t disinclude so-called acquaintance rape from my above judgment. I think these men have merely discovered a more socially acceptable excuse. Their misbehavior still constitutes a crime.

Kraigmo's avatar

Hi Simone. I agree with the article that educating the public, is the most widespread effective way.

On a tactical level, we need to legalize prostitution, and all other victimless crimes, so that way the message and actions we send to rapists and other predators… is that we’re coming after THEM and ONLY THEM.

Right now, society spits on the victim by supporting all sorts of wasteful laws against prostitution, drugs, porn, etc… resulting in taxpayer money being used to chase down harmless people while rapists and other predators go free. Not a single penny should be spent on victimless crimes ever again. Not until every single victim’s evidence kit has been analyzed, and the perpetrators chased down and prosecuted.

So a combination of education, and more intelligent criminal law, is what’s in order.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Kraigmo I do agree with you that legalizing prostitution would help but there has to be a good way to do it…sometimes legalization increases demand and to support supply, youth and others are forced into it…

dpworkin's avatar

You assume that prostitution is victimless. That is an assumption I am not fully prepared to make. For only one example, we know that many sex workers were sexually abused as children. This brings at least some doubt to the proposition that they are making completely free choices. We also know that many, many prostitutes are coerced, hence the egregious term “white slavery”, thankfully now called human trafficking.

How do you propose to distinguish among people who are sex workers by full and open free choice, and those who actually are victims of various sorts?

Kraigmo's avatar

pdworkin: of course prostitution is victimless in its inherent form…. usually. in cases where its not, then its more than prostitution, it’s slavery, which is a predatory crime. And furthermore, human traffickers and slaveholders would be found a lot more quickly, if prostitution were legal. Because if it were legal, the industry would talk. Talk to police, talk to others. Right now, the industry is silent, because its an illegal industry, and if they turn in bad guys, they themselves will oftentimes get into legal trouble.

There’s no reason to criminally chase down johns and hookers just because a certain percentage of them are into slavery. The slave traders must be stopped. And that will happen a lot faster, once the non-coerced prostitutes are able to live their lives legally and freely.

There’s no reason to chase down prostitutes and then distinguish whether they are slaves or in by free choice. But whenever a slave seeks help, or a tip about slavery is called in, we could finally have the resources to properly act on that, if we quit wasting our money on religious-based blue-type laws that like to ban all things traditionally immoral.

Fernspider's avatar

@Kraigmo – I agree that prostitution should not be a crime but to be honest it is actually legal in New Zealand and this appears not to have had any effect on rape crimes so potentially they aren’t as related as initially thought.

Complete prevention in my opinion is not possible. Crime will always exist, some situations will always happen. Opportunists will always find an opportunity to act in a way they choose to.

Educating men, in my opinion, is a fantastic idea. I don’t believe it will completely stop rape the world over but I think it may stop some instances. Like it has been mentioned before, I don’t think it could hurt.

For instance, there will always be domestic abuse crimes. However, in New Zealand there has been ongoing campaigns on TV and advertising putting the message out there that this behaviour is not ok and never ok. That there are people who can help and that society will not tolerate this behaviour. I think it has helped a little. It won’t stop it completely but hey, if one person somewhere doesn’t act out violently simply because they have been subliminally talked out of it or provided with the education or idea that there are actually other options to dealing with anger then great, it is one less instance of abuse.

dpworkin's avatar

@Kraigmo I agree with you philosophically. I just feel that there need to be some safeguards first.

Also I notice that you do not address my point about women with personality disturbances who may be said not to be free operators, either.

avvooooooo's avatar

The best way to prevent rape in any society is to provide real consequences. Those convicted of rape should serve full sentences. Repeat offenders should be altered. It might sound harsh, but someone who hasn’t learned from being incarcerated that what they’re doing is wrong and that they shouldn’t do it should be made unable to do it. Since the majority of rapes are not reported (“60% of sexual assaults are not reported to the police”) and its unlikely that many of them will go to jail (“Only 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail.”), the ones that are caught over and over again deserve what they get.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@avvooooooo I am not for castration but I do agree with you that the rate of reporting and arrests is abysmal

rebbel's avatar

I am for legalizing prostitution, but i am not sure if this helps for the problem.
It’s legal here, in the Netherlands, but still people are being raped.
Probably bacause, i think, rape is not a sexual thing per se, but more of a power-over-the-victim-crime (does that word makes sense?).
Those who do these crimes will not be stopping to do them because they can ‘instead’ get (paid) sex, i’m afraid.

ubersiren's avatar

@kibaxcheza : Having a knife would be better than not having a knife. I’d rather have something than nothing! Same with mace (could I get it out in time? Would it function?) or knowing martial arts (would I be able to use it if I was overpowered and taken by surprise? What if my attacker knows it, too?) But that weapon could save my life. If I don’t have it at all, I don’t even have the chance to try. I didn’t offer this as a solution, I simply said that’s what I’d do.

wundayatta's avatar

Education, education, education. Self-understanding. Understanding of sexism and where disrespect for others comes from. People need to understand themselves and each other, and learn to value themselves, and learn to deal with childhood issues that cause them to disrespect others.

There is so much more, of course. Parenting (or lack thereof) plays a role. Culture and religion play a role. Mental illness plays a role. Really, the same things that will help all of society become a more humane and productive culture—these are the same things that will help reduce the incidence of rape most effectively over the long term.

jamielynn2328's avatar

The best way to deal with a rape culture is to educate our young boys on dealing with their feelings appropriately. Right now many parents teach their boys not to cry, they fill them up with crap like…“Real Men don’t show emotion”. This is not only untrue, but it is damaging. Men act dominate because they are taught through our culture that they are. Rape is about domination and control, not about sexual pleasure.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@jamielynn2328 yes I agree, it is quite damaging
and @daloon I also agree that it starts with parents

hungryhungryhortence's avatar

Rape is about taking power from the victim. Typically between a man and a woman, rape is an easy way to overpower and strip control because it attacks the most basic and pure expression of the body. Rape isn’t about clothes or promiscuity.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@hungryhungryhortence oh sure, but clothes and promiscuity get thrown around as relevant

hungryhungryhortence's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: that way of thinking about rape was archaic 30 years ago.

evegrimm's avatar

I found this quote a while back (not sure who said it), and feel it applies to the discussion of rape:

“Rape isn’t sex, it’s violence: if I hit you with a rolling pin, would you mistake it for cooking?”

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY What I fail to understand about what you are saying is you keep referring to crime, this question isn’t about crime it is about RAPE yes rape is a crime, but there are many crimes that people go to prison for that they didn’t even do anything wrong.

YARNLADY's avatar

@justus2 It is important to realize that rape is a crime, and must be treated as such.

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY “yes rape is a crime” if you look at my original answer and that quote yes I said rape is a crime, what you kept saying was we need to prevent crime, well there is a big difference between a rapist or predator than someone who grows medicinal marijuana.

ps: The question wasn’t how do we prevent crimes, it was how do we prevent rape. Which although rape is a crime and should be talking about crimes is too broad.

YARNLADY's avatar

@How do we prevent rape? By making sure everyone recognizes it for the crime that it is, and there is no difference between that and every other crime. Separating rape from crime is what got us here in the first place. Boys will be boys, and girls really mean yes when they say no is wrong, wrong, wrong. A crime is a crime, no matter what you choose to call it and pretending rape is different from any other crime is not a good idea.

I would much rather the crime of rape was called assault in the first degree, so no one could pretend it has anything to do with the act of sex.

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY So we are in agreement that rape is a crime, but not all crimes are the same, jaywalking is not the same as rape, if so you are a rapist because you have jaywalked in your life, we all have, so why dont you actually think before you write? According to your first response to this you still believe the victim is responsible “There is no effective way to prevent a crime of any kind other than never being in a situation that would allow it to happen” so basicly it is the victim’s fault. It is your opinions and those who have them that put us in the position we are in now.

YARNLADY's avatar

@justus2 I am all ears – if you know of an effective way to prevent crime please enlighten me and all the rest of Fluther.

kibaxcheza's avatar

@ubersiren we were talking about a blind woman with a knife…...

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY ok it seems you have a problem understanding this question. There is ONLY ONE CRIME we are talking about that is RAPE!!! Now if you have a suggestion on how to prevent this crime and this crime only then please share. If though you want to comment on crime in general then you should post your own question.

YARNLADY's avatar

There is no effective way to prevent rape other than never being in a situation that would allow it to happen (In other words, locking yourself off from all other people.)

Criminals are everywhere and it is up to each of us to try to protect ourselves.

From what I can see, society is doing it’s part to make sure the crime of rape is recognized for what it is, and there are many who will not or can not get the message.

If anyone here knows a way to prevent crime (including, but not exclusively rape) please tell us what it is.

Now, if that isn’t complete enough for you, just say so, and I will try again.

pathfinder's avatar

I sudgest a bether system.That mean faster income of money and creative activity for young people.Every body to keep buzy.Do not make any one to be not shure about anything.

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY

What is the best way to prevent rape in our society?
Asked by Simone_De_Beauvoir (6708points) | asked 7 hours ago | 62 responses | “Great Question” (3points) | Flag as…

For years we’ve warned women about how they should dress and act and be careful to avoid getting raped – it’s the whole ‘blame the victim’ ideology (and yes, I realize men, too, get raped as do trans people)...this hasn’t worked all that much…this article suggests another way…

http://jezebel.com/5355724/what-if-keeping-women-safe-meant-educating-men

which I think is a good idea

do you think we should be doing a combination of the two above or something entirely different to prevent rape? should we focus on gender norms, sexism, the media, social institutions, race politics, power dynamics, etc?
Stop following Send to a friend!
Topics: feminism, people, women, power, sociology, men, Patterns, prevention, Future, society, sexism, gender, rape, violence

That is everything from the original question, it is not about all crimes, only about exclusively RAPE! Everyone knows rape is a crime, just like everyone knows that being a drug dealer is a crime, doesn’t mean people don’t do it, you should post your own question about all crimes and how to prevent them but not here on the question asking about how to prevent rape. There are many crimes, dealing drugs, jaywalking, statuatory rape, rape, murder, petty larsony, child molestation, public urination (indecent exposure), I can go on forever here, we are talking exclusively about preventing rape!!

YARNLADY's avatar

@justus2 As long as people insist on believing that rape is not a crime, it is more difficult to fight it. My answer to the above question is to treat it like a crime in order to help prevent it from happening. Rape = crime and crime = rape.

Why would anyone want to treat this problem differently than any other crime?

mattbrowne's avatar

Good parenting leading to normal healthy men. Martial art skills and pepper sprays for women just in case. Medication for abnormal men unable to control their sexuality.

ubersiren's avatar

My favorite part of threads like these is all the ranting and volleying arguments, then good ol’ @mattbrowne comes along and breaks it up with a simple and sensible answer. Shuts ‘em down! He’s my Fluther crush.

whitenoise's avatar

I think you are biased from American society. I have never heard anybody over here in Holland saying that women need to dress differently in order to prevent rape. Many efforts into educating men is and has been done by our government. Including school projects and national campaigns. I feel that to be the better way, but it will never stop all rapes.

Some people are just rapists and will not be stopped regardless. A fully safe society is a Utopian impossibility.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@whitenoise by ‘our’ society I mean American society

whitenoise's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I knew that… just wanted to chime nevertheless ;-)

I feel like being a world citizen and your society to be mine as well.
(That is the nice parts of it, of course…. the rest is yours to keep.)

jonsblond's avatar

@daloon & @jamielynn2328 made great points.

Self defense is not the answer. Sure it will help in some cases but there is no way it could have helped me. The first time that I was raped I was asleep in my dorm room. This person came in and pinned me down. He was much larger than me and got on top of me from behind. There was nothing that I could do. The second time involved two men that I knew. Two against one. Unless I was Superwoman, there was nothing I could do.

dpworkin's avatar

@jonsblond I have to agree. I can’t imagine what my blind girlfriend would do with a knife if taken by surprise (of COURSE it would be by surprise) by a man much larger than herself (she is 5’4”).

Jack79's avatar

Has any of the women suggested castrating all men yet?

@evegrimm I love that quote, pretty spot on.

I think all statistics, not just the ones avoooo mentions, are suggesting rape is not 5 men in an dark alley attacking a girl walking home alone in a miniskirt in the middle of the night. Actually walking home alone in a miniskirt in the middle of the night seems to be far safer than going to visit your uncle in some situations. Other than education and a better society that prevents people from becoming rapists in the first place (wishful thinking here), the only real thing that can be done is a more supportive system that sees the offenders behind bars so that they can’t repeat the same crime.

But here lies the problem: a girl goes to the police and says some guy raped her. In our modern society, the fact that they had sex doesn’t really prove anything. Most girls have sex, often with several different partners, and it’s usually not rape. At the same time a woman could have sex with her husband and it could be. It’s always her word against his. How can we ever know what really happened?

Two recent cases near where I live: A girl accuses two guys of raping her. They get arrested and face charges, it’s all over the media, all the gory details about how they tied her and beat her up and whatnot. Eventually one of them (who had been dating the girl for a while) presents some messages where it is clear that he asked her to come over that night and have sex with both of them, and the girl answered “mmmm…can’t wait”. In another case, girl meets boy in a disco, they get drunk and he drives her home. She asks him up, they start kissing and eventually take their clothes off. It is at this point that the girl starts saying “no” (for whatever reason). The guy ignores her and goes on. He got 2 years in jail. In a world where “no” can mean anything from “yes” to “maybe”, I think the guy is not the real criminal here.

These are of course exceptions to the rule, but at the same time raise the question of “reasonable doubt”. Even in the perfect world, where all cases were investigated thoroughly and all suspects brought to justice, there would be no easy way of knowing which of the victims really got raped and which were simply lying (or even luring the men into a trap) for different reasons. Which results in those “pre-date contracts” where you already sign in advance whether you’re willing to have sex with someone, before you even know whether you’ll be in the mood or not after the second wine.

avvooooooo's avatar

@YARNLADY Even though I’ve explained how this is wrong,

“There is no effective way to prevent rape other than never being in a situation that would allow it to happen (In other words, locking yourself off from all other people.)”

you still persist in posting it. Someone can lock themselves off from all other people and still have their space broken into and be raped. There is NO WAY to effectively prevent rape in the way you think. Period. That you keep stating that there is shows your willful ignorance.

Rape is a crime. I’m not sure where you think you’d find people that don’t believe it is, but that’s another misconception on your part. There are those that think that sex where consent isn’t entirely clear isn’t rape and therefore isn’t a crime, but there aren’t a whole lot of people thinking that people can fuck whoever they want without regard for whether or not the other person is consenting and that’s perfectly ok.

@Jack79 Your entire statement here is a part of the reason why the vast majority of rapes aren’t reported. There’s no way to prove them and more than likely guys, apparently like you, will decide that they’re lying to cover up being a slut. Yes, people do lie about being raped. But the vast majority that actually do make their way to the police are assumed to be liars because of the few that do. That’s fucked up.

kibaxcheza's avatar

Previous post deleted.

Im tired of talking to walls. Youre not worth it anymore.

DominicX's avatar

@Jack79 Or the fact that “no” and “stop” mean “no” and “stop” and nothing else. Is the story that she started saying “no” and then suddenly stopped saying it and didn’t fight it and then tried to call it a rape? That’s different than continuing to say “no” and fighting it and being ignored and forced. In that case, he is definitely the real criminal.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Jack79 those situations you mention do happen but are not an excuse for the abysmal rate of reporting and of arrests – most women don’t even report TRUE rapes

justus2's avatar

@YARNLADY I guess you just don’t get it, NO ONE says that rape isn’t a crime, no crime doesn’t =rape, yes rape = CRIME NO ONE is arguing that, crime = someone doing something that is against the law, there are many more things against the law than rape, and the problem isn’t that people aren’t treating rape as a crime, because the ones who are proven to have raped someone are definately treated as criminals, but all these women who get mad at a guy for cheating or because they lose their virginity to a guy and regret it later or a # of different things and claim rape when it really wasn’t are the ones who make it harder to believe the women who actually do get raped, and a lot of women don’t report the real rapes so the ones who shout out rape unless it is actually proven sound more like they are just trying to hurt the guy for something rather than they were actually raped because of these lying women who don’t actually care about how severe a CRIME RAPE ACTUALLY IS and just want to try to get the guy in trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

avvooooooo's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Most people don’t report true rapes because of the attitude that prevails that they are lying about it. Because some people lie, its easier to think that all women are lying. Instead of trying to prove something that’s next to impossible to prove (especially when its an acquaintance, partner, whatever), many women don’t put themselves through being thought a liar and a tease and all the other things that they’re thought to be (“asking for it” by wearing sexy clothes or giving someone a look or smellin’ purty). The rape is traumatic enough. You’d think that reporting would be made less traumatic instead of incredulous people saying things like “Are you sure you didn’t ask for him to do this?”

Jack79's avatar

“There’s no way to prove them and more than likely guys, apparently like you, will decide that they’re lying to cover up being a slut”

I made no judgement about you. I ask you to make no judgement about me.
You have no idea how LUCKY you are. Seriously.

benjaminlevi's avatar

“In a world where “no” can mean anything from “yes” to “maybe”, I think the guy is not the real criminal here.”
@Jack79 This is exactly the kind of thinking we need to combat to reduce the number of rapes. What the hell do you think “no” means? I think “no” is a rather unequivocal statement.

Jack79's avatar

Well if “no” means “no” perhaps you should tell that to the slut that invited the poor guy up to her room for sex, and then got him sent to jail for 2 years. She should have said “no” at the disco, not when they already had their clothes off. Sorry, that’s not a “no”. That’s an “I am a slut but changed my mind and will abuse the system now”.

If I don’t want to have sex with a girl, I tell her. I don’t go having sex with her and then saying she raped me. I never said there are no rapes. Quite the contrary. There are also murders in society. And thefts, and all sorts of crimes. But if we put throw in jail everyone that is accused of a crime without any evidence, that is not solving the problem, and we’ll probably end up with more victims in jail than outside it.

But I didn’t even say that “reasonable doubt” is necessarily a good rule. By all means, let’s change the law to make it “whoever we suspect might be guilty gets sentenced”. What I said is that until that happens, it’s always his word against hers. And the suspect will always win due to “reasonable doubt”. It is also the same when he then accuses the girl of libel. Let’s say she takes it to the press, or generally goes around saying her raped her. Even if she’s lying, he cannot put her in jail, for the same reason: reasonable doubt. Why do you assume there is a rape? Let’s assume the opposite for a mintue: isn’t it unfair when a man who HASN’T raped anyone gets accused like that and cannot have his name cleared? So what should we do then? Arrest all women who claim they were raped?

I’m not saying we should do that, I’m just explaining the flaw in the system. But of course some people here might not be intelligent enough to understand the difference. Not my fault.

benjaminlevi's avatar

@Jack79 So once a girl invites someone into her room and they take their clothes off she no longer has a right to not have sex with that person? Are you suggesting that at that point its acceptable if he “ignores her and goes on” [with the intercourse] regardless of her expressed wishes to the contrary?

Please tell me you don’t actually believe that.

and I never claimed you said there are no rapes, where are you getting that from?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Jack79 she can say no at any point she decides – it’s not so hard to understand, is it?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

and please don’t throw the word ‘slut’ around like that, for me, thank you

Jack79's avatar

what I am saying in that particular scenario is that there is a difference between a guy attacking a girl in a dark alley, a grandfather raping his 4-year-old granddaughter (or grandson), a wife raping her husband and two drunken strangers who got carried away and then one of them decided to make a legal case out of a one-night-stand. They are not all the same.

If it was me, I would have stopped, but this guy maybe was too drunk. I am always under control, but I don’t know about others. I personally don’t believe he should get 2 years for that, especially when real rapists are out and about repeating their crimes.

I was not the first person to use the word “slut”, nor did I start the personal attacks. I merely pointed out a flaw in the system. That does not make me a rapist, nor a corrupt judge.

benjaminlevi's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I find it strange when people call rape victims “sluts”, how are they “slutty” when they had to be physically forced into the sex act?

Jack79's avatar

and yes, she can say “no” at any point. But did she? how do you know? Were you there? The only witness was the accused, but of course he can say whatever he wants and nobody will believe him, because he’s a guy. It’s the same flaw.

Nobody EVER called a REAL rape victim a slut. But of course some people just choose to read whatever they want any way they want. I don’t know why I even bother. Goodnight.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Jack79 well I meant it for everyone, didn’t I, to stop using the word ‘slut’ as I didn’t put @ your name…and now we don’t know what happens but if you’ve ever worked with victims of rape and sexual assault and you’ve seen their bodies and looked into their eyes and heard them, you’d know that what happened did happen and that they were abused, believe you me…and a REAL rape victim IS often deemed a ‘slut’ by whomever…that term is meaningless…and shouldn’t be used…

benjaminlevi's avatar

@Jack79 You said “It is at this point that the girl starts saying “no” (for whatever reason). The guy ignores her and goes on. He got 2 years in jail.”

In the your words, which is the only testimonial that I have of what happened in this incident, you said “the guy ignores her and goes on” not “later she said that she told him to stop to get him thrown in jail”. Your original post phrased it as being without doubt.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

and what does it mean when men can’t stop and it’s okay because they’re drunk – does being drunk automatically excuse this kind of urge…my husband doesn’t drink so I don’t know what he’s like drunk..but I know my ex husband and he drank and got drunk, super uber wasted drunk as I know all my friends and all that…and I’ve been there…they wouldn’t rape…a person that rapes must learn the lesson to not rape…and if you think you might rape then don’t drink.ever. ever. ever. period.

rooeytoo's avatar

I believe a woman has a right to change her mind and say no at any time and if the man does not stop it is indeed rape.

But I do have to ask the question, why the hell does the woman put herself in this situation in the first place?

nikipedia's avatar

@Jack79: I agree with the basic premise of what you’re saying. There is a difference between a woman getting attacked by a stranger in an alley, and a woman inviting a guy up to her room, getting naked, and only then saying no. But the difference is in degree, not in kind. The second woman has exercised poor judgment, but she still has the right to say no at any time. Right?

You raise a good point though. The woman in the second situation (quasi-rape? soft-rape?) could have prevented the rape by not getting so drunk she couldn’t make decisions, by not inviting the guy up, etc

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@rooeytoo we’ve all been in those situations – because we’re not thinking straight…and as @Jack79 not all of the situations are when people are drunk…

DrasticDreamer's avatar

Parts of this thread disgust me.

I was given a date rape drug on my 17th birthday, by someone I knew. I didn’t even finish a full beer, but because there was alcohol involved and I was friends with the person, I didn’t tell anyone because I was too scared of being called a slut. Or too scared someone would say I just got drunk and ended up doing something that I regretted.

Rape is rape. There is no such thing as soft rape, light rape or mild rape. Some women put themselves in situations which make them even more vulnerable than usual, which isn’t the best idea, but “no” means “no”, regardless of whether or not her clothes are off and she’s been making out with you.

No one approaches a bright red “STOP” sign and thinks, “Is this a rolling stop? A slight stop?” No, “stop” means “STOP”!

avvooooooo's avatar

@Jack79 “Nobody EVER called a REAL rape victim a slut.”

Bullshit. It happens ALL THE TIME. Anyone who doesn’t want to believe that this guy did whatever to that girl (like his mother who knows her baby would never do something like that) calls her a liar, a dirty little slut who was asking for it if she did get some, and so on. You attitude is EXACTLY the reason why rapes aren’t reported. Another case of willful ignorance if you just refuse to see that. You are not being “judged” because of something you can’t control or whatever, your words are showing all too clearly your wrong-minded attitude when it comes to rape. That’s where the “judgment” comes in.

Also… How “LUCKY” I am? How so? Really, how so?

@nikipedia People who are intoxicated are incapable of giving consent. Legally, at least.

augustlan's avatar

I think many of you are completely misunderstanding @YARNLADY‘s position here. Perhaps it was her choice of wording, but how I read it is:

The only way to ever stop rape is to never be in a situation where it could happen. Therefore, it is not possible to stop rape. All we can do is try to protect ourselves.

I don’t think she was actually suggesting that it is a good idea to lock yourself away from the world, nor that this would actually work. I honestly don’t think she was ‘blaming the victim’.

Christian95's avatar

I think that creating ’‘rape centers’’ where anyone can come to satisfy their sexual fantasies is the best idea,because if you don’t have any fantasy than you have no reason to rape someone.The trickiest part is how to make this affordable to everyone.I think that the government should sponsor this.

DrasticDreamer's avatar

I think anyone who truly wants to rape someone should be eradicated from the human species. But that’s just me.

I guess I call myself DrasticDreamer for a reason…

benjaminlevi's avatar

@augustlan On an individual level, yes, the only way you can stop it is to never be in such a situation, but i thought this question was about preventing it on societal level

avvooooooo's avatar

@benjaminlevi Which is why I think penalties for doing it should be harsher. Get caught for one rape, spend a full sentence in jail. Get caught for several or again… Byebye boys. Of course you’d need things like DNA in the drastic cases to make sure, but if someone has been raping people and will likely go on raping people, they need to be made unable to do so.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Christian95 I don’t think rapists would go there because that way it wouldn’t be as exciting

jamielynn2328's avatar

A woman cannot prevent herself from being raped. I guess on an individual level a person can avoid risky situations such as parties where alcohol is involved. But the percentage of rapes that happen this way are minuscule.

In almost 75% of rape cases, the women know their assailant. This number is probably higher considering that so many cases go unreported and a women is more likely to avoid reporting it if they know their attacker. How are we supposed to avoid this??

The United States has by far the highest percentage of rapes in the world. What does that say about individual prevention? Many countries consume alcohol and wear small amounts of clothing. The United States has this problem because of our culture.

Who hasn’t seen the slasher film, the close up of a girl with heavy amounts of cleavage seconds before she is viciously stabbed. It is culture approved sexual violence.

The worst thing we can do is blame the victim, or to think that we as individual’s have any responsibility in the violent acts of men. The responsibility we have as women is to mother our young boys appropriately. To teach them how to deal with their emotions. To not assign stereotypical gender traits to them. We assign dominating characteristics to men through our societal views and then we can’t seem to figure out why so many men are violent and rape women.

whitenoise's avatar

@Christian95 rape centers? Sure these would not just turn into training grounds?
Fantasies do not disappear from having them satisfied in (semi) reality.

They will just yearn for more…

The only way is to have better education of those men that might become rapists because they are poorly informed on how to interact with people and taking those that would rape anyway out of situations where they can.

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

Women should stop turning to films on Lifetime as a guide to selecting men to associate with.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv that’s your solution to the rape issue? seriously?

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

No, but it is an observation about one particular networks take on women’s knack for self preservation (or lack thereof).

It may not mean to but Lifetime’s content suggests that at least some harm that comes to women is the result of less that intelligent decisions on a womans part.

I’m offended on behalf of women everywhere.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv I don’t watch Lifetime so I don’t know if I agree with you ornot but it the messages are what you say they are, then yes that is damaging

MRSHINYSHOES's avatar

@drdoombot When you refer to men as animals, I hope you are not using the term in a disparaging manner. Most men are decent and do not rape.

@jonsblond—-Good answer.

flutherother's avatar

Most men, or all men, want sex which is not the same as rape at all. If you are ever in the unfortunate position of being about to be raped you should grab the offending member and press it forcibly down between the guys legs. Then, if you feel inclined, you can call for an ambulance.

cletrans2col's avatar

Men need to know to never put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of rape. Because once you are accused, you are screwed.

cletrans2col's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – that was the dumbest fucking thing that I have ever seen.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@cletrans2col Why do you think so? I happen to think it’s an appropriate twist on the invasive ‘blame the victim’ mentality. and watch your language.

cletrans2col's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – To address your last point: no.

To address your first point: I am not blaming an ‘alleged’ victim, but I am acknowledging that for men, if you are accused of rape, it does not matter that it is not proven you will still be considered guilty.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@cletrans2col It is unfortunate that people do this but not all people do this. I know I don’t. And if you don’t care to watch your language, I don’t care to continue our conversation.

rooeytoo's avatar

If males follow the rules @Simone_De_Beauvoir posted, they could never be accused. If they don’t follow those rules then they could very well be guilty of rape or attempted rape regardless of claims of innocence.

cletrans2col's avatar

@rooeytoo – that is bull. That is putting all of the responsibility on the man. Why don’t females have any responsibility? You womens libbers can’t have it both ways.

Which reminds me: I have seen a lot of people refer to women in this scenario as ‘victims’ and not ‘alleged victims’, which is part of the problem. In a rape accusation we are willing to automatically assume a man is guilty; if Duke (one of many examples) has taught us anything, that is not a good idea.

rooeytoo's avatar

@cletrans2col – I do partially agree, it is stupid for anyone, women especially because of their physical disadvantage in most cases, to put themselves into situations where there is danger. But the bottom line is, no matter what, either party has the right to say I changed my mind at any point in time and the other must honor that. If it is not honored then it becomes rape, plain and simple.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@cletrans2col Us ‘women libbers’? Please, you’re a cartoon. And I never consider women the victims which is why I put that word in quotes. Everyone has a responsibility to end rape and to prevent false accusations of rape. I will be the first, not the last, person in your corner when you’re accused and innocent but your assumptions about feminists make you blind to see that. That link I posted, if you notice, says nothing about men – it talks of people because not only men commit rapes and not only against women. You have much to learn.

YARNLADY's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir cletrans2col Looks like a troll to me.

cletrans2col's avatar

@YARNLADY Far from it. Just callin’ it as I see it.

wundayatta's avatar

@cletrans2col In what way are women responsible for being raped?

Pandora's avatar

Knowledge, mace, awareness of your surroundings at all times, and neutering of all repeat offenders.

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