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doggywuv's avatar

Atheists: Why don't you believe in God?

Asked by doggywuv (1041points) September 15th, 2009

I’ve always been an atheist and throughout my childhood my reason for not believing in God has been that I never had a need for that belief. Today I don’t because I believe that it’s not possible for a being to exist outside of nature, and therefore think that God cannot exist.

How about you?

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114 Answers

iputthexintexas's avatar

Because religion is ridiculous. Its a system the government created to better keep people distracted and controlled. I think there is a God out there some where but that ‘religion’ doesn’t exist here.

jrpowell's avatar

It seems logical that God would need to be proven for me to believe that it exists. The same reason I don’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

JLeslie's avatar

My parents were atheists so I never even thought about God until I noticed other people talking about it, and that was probably in my teens.

As I got older it seemed absurd to me that a God would be punitive, or require his followers to worship him in church every week, or every day, or whatever. I don’t think that if there is a God he would be a macho, controlling dictator. I think he would value goodness, and not get caught up in how people identify themselves whether they be Christian, or Moslem, or atheists. So religions that think they are the only right way really turn me off more than anything, and don’t bring me to God, but just help me stay away,

Axemusica's avatar

I’m not going to push beliefs or attack them. I’m merely going to state my beliefs.

I’m not religious. I don’t believe in the god/jesus that most religions say is “their lord and savor.” I don’t think there ever was a word of god ever spoken, as so a book by men was written.
Although, I do believe in a higher power. Something had to form this is existence. Something had give that little bit of carbon the right ingredient that created this gigantic universe.
I don’t believe in damnation or heaven and hell. I believe we living on after death through another plain of existence, like an alternate reality or a parallel universe. We just pass over. I’ve seen strange things that most people wouldn’t believe. I’ve done things that most people would think are impossible, but I’ve done them. To deny that some sort of “power” doesn’t exist, is just silly in my book.
As for the religious “God” so many religions speak of, no, I don’t think that’s correct, but it gives people happiness and so it’s not that bad in my book.

It’s true people do get out of control with their beliefs and that’s because it gives them hope. It gives them their happy lives some meaning and I could see how someone trying to break that down is unhinging, because it’s like someones trying to beat you down. This is why I’d only state my beliefs. I care not to bring anyone pain because something makes them enjoy their existence that much more. So, I don’t judge and I don’t try to conform other peoples beliefs.

barumonkey's avatar

@iputthexintexas: Clearly not all religions were not created by governments for the purpose of keeping the people down. Some, maybe, but you didn’t answer the question. You don’t even need religion to believe in a God.

barumonkey's avatar

@Axemusica: I don’t think that’s Atheism; I read that as you believing in a god that does not conform to the constraints of the “popular” religions.

barumonkey's avatar

@johnpowell: I think that means you’re agnostic (like me), not atheist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Axemusica's avatar

@barumonkey I refer to myself and kind of an Agnostic.

ASoprano's avatar

@doggywuv We already have real life Union Leaders.

timtrueman's avatar

I think Religulous sums up how I feel about religion and god. I struggled for a long time before realizing my problem was I simply didn’t believe in god or religion. Realizing that lifted a lot of pressure for me and I’ve been very happy since recognizing and admitting I am an atheist. It wasn’t easy…

deni's avatar

I don’t believe in god because I don’t need to believe in god. I don’t need to sit for hours in a church every week, or waste time thinking “god” for something he gave me, when it was something I earned myself. People take it to the extremes, then we have war and hatred, and nothing good comes of it. And no one ever seems to be angry with god for doing any BAD things that happen in their life. It just seems like a big hypocritical waste of time and i have more interesting things to do.

&, as @johnpowell said, why would I believe in god more than I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The same amount of proof has been amounted to prove the existance of both.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@Axemusica Agreed. There are certain things that one cannot (or could but would be stupid to) ignore, and it seems pretty obvious that there are things in this world beyond our understanding and control. To me, atheists come off as know-it-alls, or wannabe rebels (but who isn’t). Like “I’ve done it all. I’ve seen it all. If I aint seen it, it aint there. If I don’t understand it, it doesn’t exist.” It’s like wind. You can’t SEE wind. But you surely see the effects of it, just as someone can see the effects that imply a cause beyond our comprehension. At a certain point, you can’t keep saying “That HAD to be a coincidence.” The first few times, sure, knock yourself out. But when event after event after event befall you on a daily basis, saying “I’m standing right here looking at you, doofus.”, you can draw one of two conclusions. I mean…
“Either there’s a higher power, or the whole world revolves around me.”
The latter seems unlikely

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@deni As someone else stated, believing in God and being involved in organized religion are two different things. I don’t go to church, either. I can give thanks throughout the day. If God is everywhere, as they say, I’m sure there’s no reason you’d have to go to a specific place to talk to him. lol. But what do I know? Maybe the concentrated mound of prayers shows up more on the radar, they assume. Seems like it’s kinda convoluted, though.
To me, ‘religion’ is a personal thing. All people are different, so they’re all gonna have a different perspective on how things work and how to apply their own morals to their everyday life, and make the world better. I know religion causes alot of wars. But so do many other things. Humans are petty by nature. We’ll find any excuse to bitch about something, or pick a fight, or protest. It’s stupid. All of it. Instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong, or trying to fit into a certain culture, just let people do what they want so long as it’s not hurting anyone else. There was something else I was going to say but I got sidetracked and forgot so maybe later.

iputthexintexas's avatar

@barumonkey everything you said, doesn’t make any sense.

doggywuv's avatar

@ASoprano About 5 weeks ago I started having problems with my intelligence (such as loss of ability to express myself well, forgetting of words, slower speech, difficulty to learn new concepts, etc.) and I don’t know what the cause of it is. So I didn’t quite understand your comment…

ASoprano's avatar

@doggywuv don’t sweat it,i got beaten to a pulp as a kid.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@iputthexintexas That was 5th grade philosophy. Surely you jest.

ml3269's avatar

I am without any religion because I do not need a power above me (like they would say), I am happy and feeling totally free without any guidance… and god does not exist… that’s it… I do not even understand what exactly is “believing in God/Allah/Jachweh” or even a tree…

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

It’s not about need. O_o

benjaminlevi's avatar

Same reason religious people don’t believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, there isn’t any logical reason to do so.

AtSeDaEsEpPoAoSnA's avatar

What is it with this type of question? And the style it is asked in? Logical or not. There may or may not be, the end. We will all find out when we die.

DarkScribe's avatar

I believe in Goddesses – does that count?

Ivan's avatar

1) The universe is explainable without gods.
2) There is no positive, specific evidence for the existence of said gods.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan The universe is explainable without gods.

No it isn’t. Not even Douglas Adams could do it – although he came closer than most.

JLeslie's avatar

Even if there is a God, I don’t think it is important to believe in him. Is he so evil that he would damn me to hell just because I don’t believe in him, even when I live with integrity. Not very nice.

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

Really, the universe demands that a god absolutely exist? Couldn’t you say the same thing for unicorns, if you were of that mind?

benjaminlevi's avatar

@Ivan Right, it is our hooves of destiny that keep the universe from falling apart

cwicseolfor's avatar

It’s very simple: There is no reason to believe in any gods.

charliecompany34's avatar

nature is God.
can you create a tree? a mountain? water?

these are things on earth that we enjoy and appreciate, but where it comes from is beyond what the natural mind can figure out. a higher being has created these “joys” of life that we sometimes take for granted.

the origin of water, earth or whatever natural cannot be made from man’s hands.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan Really, the universe demands that a god absolutely exist

Where did I say or imply that? I am a devout atheist, don’t insult me. ;)

I said that you cannot explain the universe – forget about Gods – they get enough adoration from insurance companies.

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

I said that it was explain-able.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan I said that it was explain-able.

To be explainable, you must be able to explain it. Explainable is an adjective used to describe something that can be explained.

El_Cadejo's avatar

God aint got shit on google :P

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

Right, it can be explained.

cbloom8's avatar

1) I’ve lived my whole life without religion, and I’m just as happy/fortunate as any religious person.
2) It doesn’t make sense (Invisible man in the sky is watching me, he’ll send me to Hell to burn for eternity, but he LOVES me).
3) I don’t need religion – it wastes time, money.
4) Without ever being religious, I see it from a logical perspective that reveals it’s true nature – that it’s all there to keep order and control.

whatthefluther's avatar

There is a deity and her name is Evelyn. I have as much evidence of her existence as anyone else has of their gods existence. Plus, she is much better looking and, the basis of her religion is the orgasm. What could be better?
See ya.,...Gary/wtf, follower of the Orgasmic Church of Evelynism

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@cbloom8 Where does money come into play?

El_Cadejo's avatar

@Piper_Brianmind The donations to the church. I knew a priest who drove a vett. Wonder where he got that money?

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan Right, it can be explained.

Great. Explain it to me then. Where did it come from? How long has it been there? What was there before it existed. Why do women buy shoes that they never wear?

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@uberbatman But I mean, you don’t have to go. lol.

DarkScribe's avatar

@uberbatman I knew a priest who drove a vett. Wonder where he got that money?

Maybe he started to realise the cash value of those confessions. Many of the early Popes did.

benjaminlevi's avatar

@DarkScribe Just because Ivan can’t explain everything about the universe and exactly how it came to be does not in anyway mean that the universe “needs” a god. (you know that)

DarkScribe's avatar

@benjaminlevi

Nobody needs a God, other than insurance companies. If they stopped claiming to believe in God and “Acts of God” they would go bankrupt.

dannyc's avatar

Atheists do not believe in God because such a belief requires faith, not logic. Pragmatic, scientific observation is what makes an atheist. Since God cannot be proved scientifically, atheists dismiss God’s plausibility. People of faith need no proof, thus differ in their outlook. The two groups are mutually exclusive, and debating it betwixt is relatively futile except for fence sitters. That is where the action is, those who are not sure of their belief.

DarkScribe's avatar

@dannyc …and debating it betwixt is relatively futile except for fence sitters

But it is fun.

dannyc's avatar

@DarkScribe . True. There are a lot of those, so the Adventure of The Pursuit of Universal Truth will always be there….indeed fun.

benjaminlevi's avatar

@DarkScribe Why do insurance companies need to believe in acts of god?
I don’t follow…

DarkScribe's avatar

@benjaminlevi Why do insurance companies need to believe in acts of god?
I don’t follow…

Exclusions. If something is regarded as an “Act of God” it is excluded unless specifically insured against. Many policies will not cover flood, earthquake, anything that would typically be called an Act of God. (They also exclude war and terrorism nowadays.)

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

can =/= is

Also, for anything that we currently do not have explanations for, instead of concluding that a god is necessary to explain it, you could just as easily substitute anything you wish. Probably the best thing to substitute in would be “an unknown natural event”.

Sampson's avatar

I don’t believe in G-d because as a child I said, “If G-d is real, may he strike me down with lightning right now.”

The pussy didn’t.

evelyns_pet_zebra's avatar

I used to be an atheist, now I am an Evelynist. No other god has as much to offer and there isn’t a one that teaches that it is okay to not follow what their relgion teaches.

Evelyn has many followers, and her followers believe in the almighty orgasm.

Too many deities look like unwashed heathens with beards. Jesus was a hippie, you know. Evelyn is a beautiful woman that just happens to be 300 foot tall. You don’t have to believe in her, she really doesn’t care if you do or not. She does think humans are interesting and add pleasure to her existence, much like we humans think pets are interesting and add pleasure to our existence.

Evelyn says; Life is about choices, your results may vary.

pathfinder's avatar

Is it monkey or the soul of salvation_——___——___—-

galileogirl's avatar

The fact you are asking the question indicates a need for confirmation of your (un)belief. People who are secure in their philosophy don’t need validation.

Hobosnake's avatar

The universe is not explainable without God (and I say it never will be. For those of you who want to say ‘yet’ be my guest, but don’t say that it already is).

No, God is not proven, neither is he really tangible.

Here’s an interesting fact for people to chew on:

The intangibility of God has helped shape even atheist’s view of the very fabric of the universe: Jewish Scientists were the only ones able to wrap their heads around the fact that we actually might not be able to create an accurate visual representation of an atom, as it has no properties that make it visually existent. However, we know that they are there nonetheless. Jewish scientists were able to wrap their heads around this because their culture had spent thousands of years worshiping a God who required his followers not to make graven images (most, if not all, other religions of the time had idols in abundance) but rather to worship him in his entirety, which was (and is) a completely unvisualizable, amazing being.

Hobosnake's avatar

@Sampson: if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, God will move mountains through you. If you have disbelief the size of a mountain, why should he move a mustard seed for you?

LostInParadise's avatar

Because the whole thing is meaningless. It makes no difference. Is this the best of all worlds? What are the standards? Oh, only God knows them. Then the statement is meaningless.

mattbrowne's avatar

It’s my understanding that atheists don’t believe in God because they assume science can explain the meta-phenomenon of existence, as well as the orderly biophilic universe we live in. A reasonable assumption. Is it correct? We don’t know.

DarkScribe's avatar

@mattbrowne It’s my understanding that atheists don’t believe in God because they assume science can explain the meta-phenomenon of existence,

I am an atheist and science has nothing whatsoever to do with my not believing in deities. Common sense has.

I don’t know the answer to a great many fascinating questions, but believing that a fully operational God popped out of nowhere and created everything gives rise to the question of such a God’s origin. That would defy more logic than any other theory. Then, to worship a mean tempered, chauvinistic, misogynistic, discriminatory, vengeful God such as the one depicted in all Christian literature defies any concept of conventional sanity.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@dannyc – I think your definition of an atheist is limiting – as an atheist, I can have faith and though I am very fond of science, I don’t think it explains all and I don’t need it to explain all nor do I need to act god to my life so that science + god can explain all…that’s unnecessary
@sampson – lol
@galileogirl – I don’t think that’s why he was asking this question – it’s not for validation but out of curiousity – I want to know why others are atheists as well

mattbrowne's avatar

@DarkScribe – Common sense? Can’t help it, but your comment sounds like mean-tempered, discriminatory and vengeful atheism to me. Choice of words is very similar to that of the religious right and their vengeful God.

DarkScribe's avatar

@mattbrowne @DarkScribe – Common sense? Can’t help it, but your comment sounds like mean-tempered, discriminatory and vengeful atheism to me

You got me. I am thinking about a career change and am getting in some practice. I plan on giving this God thing a try. Working conditions are good, six days on and two thousand years off.

doggywuv's avatar

@AtSeDaEsEpPoAoSnA It’s silly to think that we will gain certain knowledge when we die. Our brains decay, our consciousness falls apart and we are no longer capable of complex thought required to learn something new.

doggywuv's avatar

@charliecompany34 Life emerged as the result of the process of natural selection. As for the universe, it could just simply exist.

evelyns_pet_zebra's avatar

@doggywuv but for believers, that explanation has no soul, hence the need for Grand Designers with unimaginative names like God.

Ivan's avatar

@mattbrowne

Anytime you pluralize the word ‘atheist’, you’re walking on thin ice.

dalepetrie's avatar

Short answer: For the same reason I don’t believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny, or anything else that doesn’t exist.

Long answer: I don’t know what I don’t know. I see that mankind had 3 big questions -

1) Where do we come from?
2) Why are we here?
3) What happens when we die?

Any approach to understanding life will attempt to answer those questions, and essentially, we have as humans developed two major approaches to understanding life….one is faith and one is science.

Science is based on observations. The behavior of everything in the world is observed and patterns are detected. Based on these observations, one makes an educated guess about how something works. If that guess is correct, one would be able to predict what would happen under certain circumstances. So, one tests if the guess is correct by constructing experiments. If this experiment works, the guess if formed into a hypothesis. That hypothesis is then tested over and over and over again by thousands of people all over the world, and when one can consistently demonstrate that this hypothesis can correctly predict an outcome, then it becomes a theory. And basically, it never really goes farther than that. Many people regard gravity as a fact, but it is a theory…it is a theory that is accepted by everyone, but it is still a theory. In much the same way, evolution is a theory…it is no longer a hypothesis, the theory of evolution has been demonstrated repeatedly and consistently by people around the world for many years to be able to consistently and accurately predict occurrences. It is accepted by almost every scientist, pretty much at the same levels as gravity. In short, we know, we do not just think that people evolved from lower life forms. But of course, it is still a theory, we don’t know what we don’t know, because perhaps there is something about the universe that we don’t yet understand which would explain these results and paint them in a new light.

Faith on the other hand, can be based in observation, but the similarities to science end there. Faith is basically hypothesis that can not be tested. One must accept this hypothesis as fact without the evidence provided by science. No one can develop experiments to test faith, experiments that can be replicated throughout the world where all studying it come to the same conclusion. In fact, unlike science, in different parts of the world, the prevailing hypotheses are completely different. We have different religions, we do not have different sciences. Each religion shares with science the commonality of attempting to answer the 3 big questions, but rather than arriving at those answers through a systematic method, each relies on a moral certitude…it is so, because I believe it is so.

And all the world’s religions are not compatible, each major religion has deep philosophical disagreements about the big questions. And unfortunately, our modern religions do not seem to have any differentiation between themselves and the religions of the past in which no one has any faith these days. Indeed, historically, one can look at religion as having held the same purpose…to explain things…that it holds today. In the not too distant past, people believed that the sun and the moon and the stars were Gods. Today we know that they are not, an no one believes these things anymore. However, what was the purpose of this worship? These hypotheses were certainly developed through observation….the sun gives us life, therefore it must be a God. But there was no way to test that….when science did become able to test that hypothesis, it was quickly dispelled, though faith is deeply rooted and inflexible, and any challenges to it are considered heresy. This is because the very nature of faith is to believe without question.

So, when Galileo just 400 years ago proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around, he was forced to recant his views (even though they were really observations of fact and not “views”) because they conflicted with the views of the church (which really WERE views, which had no basis in observation or evidence). Indeed, the Catholic church is so resistant to change that it took them until 1990 to apologize to long dead Galileo. Today, we see parallels throughout history of religion forming a hypothesis out of nothing other than an inherent need to understand what one observes and being proven incorrect.

At the current time, science offers us the following explanations:

1) We evolved from lower species, and we are still working out the details about how the universe came to be, but we know that man is a product of millions of years of evolution from lower life forms, and that this life is a product of the basic building blocks of life…heat, water, energy. We don’t have all the answers, but we’re working on it, and we have a pretty good idea, and certainly know enough to know that life is a natural process.

2) If there is an ultimate “purpose” we have not yet found it, but we do know that life is insistent, life wants to survive and adapt…we can find life forms in the most punishing environments, and we believe we will find life in space as well. Life is just something that occurs in nature, and as part of the natural process, life will become more and more adaptable, intelligent and capable. Perhaps our purpose is to find out the answers to these 3 questions (or now 2).

3) We being comprised of organic material cease to function and return to the earth. If there is any other component to consciousness other than natural brain chemistry, we have yet to find it, but we’re sure looking.

So, where does that leave us? Well, for me, I realize that science can not provide all the answers. But having said that, I don’t think a wild guess can either, and I see no evidence to suggest that any religion past or present is anything other than a wild guess. The only support for any religion is faith, it is a self-fulfilling venture. And frankly, it is also self-protecting, one is not only promised the answers for having faith, but one is also promised great rewards far exceeding anything imaginable in life for having faith, but is also threatened with great detriment far exceeding any imaginable pain for not having faith. Religion protects itself by scaring its followers into not asking questions, because as soon as one asks questions that religion can not answer, religion loses credibility.

Now having said all that, I don’t know what I don’t know. Could there be some greater intelligence that set this process in place? Absolutely! It would be arrogant for me to simply say that even the seemingly craziest religious theory is just wrong, because as much as they can not prove that they are right, I can not prove that they are wrong. Unless and until science can somehow provide all the answers to the great questions conclusively and to the exclusion of any other theories to the contrary, religion will always exist, and no one will ever be able to say 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt that ANY religion has it ALL wrong. As long as there are answers to be discovered, we have no idea what those answers may be, and so we can not discount anything entirely no matter how ridiculous it may seem unless we can prove something that ultimately makes it impossible to believe.

A great example is the idea that man is only 6,000 years old and came into existence with the Earth and dinosaurs. It is established beyond any reasonable doubt that this is incorrect. However, could a higher intelligence have planted evidence to purposely throw us off the track…well, how can I say no? Not likely, but not something that can be proven to be fallacious. But I prefer to deal in a logical world. I tend to see that most theories pulled out of thin air tend to be wrong.

So, I don’t know if that makes me an atheist, or an agnostic or what? On one hand, I absolutely do not believe in any God. On the other, I can not discount the possibility that a God or even multiple Gods DO exist. So, it’s hard for me to say I “don’t believe” in God when I acknowledge the possibility, but I can not say I “doubt” the existence of God when I don’t actively believe in one but simply have doubts. Nonetheless, there is no evidence that any religion is more than a wild guess, and therefore, I have to use logic and say that I don’t believe in God, because I have zero evidence of His existence, but I have scads of evidence in things that conflict with a belief in him.

Critter38's avatar

Napoleon “They tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.”

Laplace “I had no need of that hypothesis.”

El_Cadejo's avatar

I hate when people say ” Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” when talking about god. Do you put this same type of thinking towards the tooth fairy and santa claus? How about unicorns and elves? I highly doubt it.

dalepetrie's avatar

@uberbatman – with the tooth fairy and Santa, not only is there absence of evidence, but there IS evidence of absence. Given that each of these beings has appointed duties, one takes away teeth and leaves cash, and the other delivers presents on Christmas eve, the evidence of absence is that when they are expected, they do not come. Further, Santa is supposed to live in a place where people have now explored. And finally, we can trace the etymology of these mythological creatures to the time and place (and possibly purpose) of their creation. Re unicorns and elves, I suspect they too have origins which are traceable, though I imagine there are people who believe in them the same as they do Jesus. Just to play Devil’s Advocate, thought I’d point that out.

ASoprano's avatar

@dalepetrie Thats a cool answer….

LostInParadise's avatar

That was a good point. The thing is that it is not just absence of evidence but that there is no gain in understanding that is achieved by positing the existence of a Supreme Being. Yes, life is wonderful but none of us getting out alive. You tell me that there is an afterlife. Then what is the point of this life? Is it just one big tryout for getting into Heaven? That makes this life of no consequence. Why should I get worked up about life on Earth if I am going to spend all of eternity somewhere else?

whatthefluther's avatar

@LostInParadise….And a good point by you as well. The way I see it is many religions want your faith, time and money for them to provide you with the right formula for afterlife eternity, but it’s all bullshit. Won wins? The priest driving the Vette as @uberbatman pointed out. Some people can be so gullible. I prefer to keep my faith, time and money within my control, but will gladly create and share my formula for afterlife eternity with anyone willing to send me $100 (PM me for address….cash only please). See ya….Gary/wtf
PS: Written guarantee will be provided.

dalepetrie's avatar

@WTF – I’ll do it for $50.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Ivan – Your point?

Ivan's avatar

@mattbrowne

There is no unified doctrine of atheism. It isn’t safe to conclude anything about atheists as a whole other than they happen to lack a belief in gods.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Ivan – I know at least 2 atheists who think organized religions are evil. I know at least 2 atheists who think we can’t prove a negative. I know at least 2 atheists who think science has no limitations even in principle. I know at least 2 atheists who think atheism doesn’t promote doctrines and doesn’t rely on dogmas even as unwritten rules. I know at least 2 atheists who think Richard Dawkins is correct that believing in a deity is the same as suffering from a delusion. I know at least 2 atheists who think believing in miracles is ridiculous even though in casual usage (see Wikipedia) “miracle” may also refer to any statistically unlikely but beneficial event, such as the survival of a natural disaster or even which regarded as “wonderful” regardless of its likelihood, such as birth. Other miracles might be: survival of a terminal illness, escaping a life threatening situation or ‘beating the odds.’ Another example is the resurrection of Jesus.

So when using the plural I don’t think I’m walking on thin ice, however I agree with you that we should be careful and not make generalizations about all atheists or all Christians.

toyhyena's avatar

I’m not an atheist (agnostic), but I noticed a few people saying stuff like “We can explain everything naturalistically.” I’d love to see what sort of absolute and official thing they must’ve read, ‘cause last I checked we have a lot of baffling kinks to work out yet.
(These are probably the same people that think Darwinism has everything figured out, yet have never heard of the Cambrian era.)

Ivan's avatar

@toyhyena

The Cambrian explosion poses no problem to the theory of evolution, not that we need to get into that here.

Hobosnake's avatar

Here’s a funny little point I’d like to make…

Scientists make way too many assumptions about the past that they can’t come anywhere near proving. Watch any national geographic that claims to be from a time before humans (and is therefore basically based completely off of fossils we have found). Take a skeptical perspective, and wonder what the heck is going on.

For example, one that I recently watched claimed that liopleuradons (an epic awesome giant whale-like carnivore with four giant flippers, supposedly extinct for like 22 million years or something (I really have no idea, just a long time)) were very territorial. One has to wonder how anyone could truly arrive at the conclusion that a fossil, during its life, had been territorial. Sure, you might only find fossils decently far apart, but what does that prove? Only that fossilization is “territorial”. For all we know, they could have lived in swarms.

Critter38's avatar

@Hobosnake Regardless of the evidence for or against territoriality in Liopleurodon, why would you ever equate what you hear in a documentary with science? Even if a “scientist” appears in a documentary and states something, it is impossible to know whether that one scientist is accurately and objectively representing the state of scientific knowledge regarding a given subject, rather than just using the media to get a crackpot theory aired.

The whole basis of science is to try to control the biases, wishful thinking, etc., of individuals and get as close as possible to the truth as best indicated by the available evidence and observation. The media (whether in documentary form or not) has a fundamentally different objective, to keep you watching the tube. It circumvents the scientific process (peer review, replication, independent verification,etc.). So sometimes they get it right and great science programs can be wonderful for conveying accurate information to the public, but far too often they get it wrong.

My wife and I have had several dealings with the media trying to convey our science to the public. Even the full time science writers usually make at least one or two mistakes in an article that ends up either misrepresenting or overstating what we found.

In this case, by all means blame the messenger. You’re more likely to be aiming in the right direction.

By the way, I can’t find any scientific publications that mention territoriality in Liopleurodon….that should raise some eyebrows.

whitenoise's avatar

@Hobosnake You stated that “The universe is not explainable without God (and I say it never will be. For those of you who want to say ‘yet’ be my guest, but don’t say that it already is).”

Well… now that’s an interesting statement. I think “The universe is not explainable with God” either.

These kinds of argumentations are practiced by my children as well…
They’ll claim, for instance, not to have to do their homework, because someone else didn’t have to. It is a fallacy to imply there must be reason to one argument, because another unrelated argument has none.

BTW Where is @RealEyesRealizeRealLies?

DarkScribe's avatar

@whitenoise BTW Where is @RealEyesRealizeRealLies?

He probably forgot to “cloak up”.

whitenoise's avatar

I was missing him – on a thread like this. :-|

DarkScribe's avatar

@whitenoise I was missing him – on a thread like this. :-|

Maybe he is away at the Unicorn Races. After all the Bible says that they exist – so somewhere there are probably atheists making money out of them. (Would they win by a nose or a horn?)

whitenoise's avatar

Weren’t Unicorns notoriously lazy, and wasn’t that the reason that they stopped having those races?

From what I understand unicorns were nasty creatures, always upsetting the horses, showing of their little twisted horn. Claiming to be the better ones, while all the while doing no work, or even refusing to do anything that may be beneficial to anyone else.

Unicorns were known to rally at night and beat up other equine animals, again claiming their superiority.
I think the world’s better off, without them. Good riddens.

DarkScribe's avatar

@whitenoise Weren’t Unicorns notoriously lazy, and wasn’t that the reason that they stopped having those races?

Aw, I like Unicorns – they would make great pets. The hell being a Knight on a white charger, if you had a unicorn you’d win the girls.

whitenoise's avatar

Ok…. then you must be talking about the transeuraustralasian white unicorn. Those are cool. Ever since the Invisble Pink Unicorn banned all other unicorns though, I think those have fallen victim in yet another senseless act of religious violence.

The Invisible Pink Unicorn is, after all, a jealous Unicorn and doesn’t tolerate any others.

Ivan's avatar

@Hobosnake

Your personal ignorance of how a conclusion was reached does not make the conclusion invalid.

mattbrowne's avatar

@toyhyena – It’s abiogenesis that needs a solid theory in addition to Darwin’s laws. But all there is at the moment are hypotheses. Scientists need to keep looking.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Hobosnake Jewish Scientists were the only ones able to wrap their heads around the fact that we actually might not be able to create an accurate visual representation of an atom, as it has no properties that make it visually existent.

Have you ever considered both reading history and paying attention? Then do a little reading about physics. It might be a novel experience.

Hobosnake's avatar

@Critter38 The whole point was that scientists seem to make assumptions far too readily and throw them out there as truth without so much as a “maybe”.

@Ivan Show me any way how fossils can even suggest that liopleuradons are territorial (or how they could have acquired any other reliable evidence to make that claim). Then I will withdraw what was really already a mostly irrelated and worthless argument.

toyhyena's avatar

Man, everyone’s so combative and arrogant! The point I wanted to make was that science doesn’t have everything figured out yet, but thanks for mentioning the whole chemical start to life thing too Matt, I forgot about that.
@Ivan Are you sure it’s not a threat? Last I checked, creationists still bring it up like it’s a valid hole. Something must be wrong with it. :P

whitenoise's avatar

@toyhyena The fact that creationists bring up an argument doesn’t in itself add validity to an argument. Actually,I would be tempted to say it does the opposite. :-)

Critter38's avatar

@toyhyena It’s not a threat to evolution.

The Cambrian explosion represents a “relatively” rapid and truly fascinating period of evolutionary diversification over a period anywhere from 5 to 40 million years approximately 530 million years ago. The period includes a wealth of fossils representing “transitional” forms, and a continuation of multicellular life forms. It is not the only period of rapid evolution, similar periods occurred during the Ordovician. There is nothing in the Cambrian explosion that is a threat to the theory of evolution, but like all events from the distant past (this was ½ a billion years ago after all) there’s lots of missing pieces to the puzzle. If you or others think that’s a threat, then you don’t understand either what the theory says, or what the Cambrian explosion represents.

The one consistent theme with creationists is that they start at a conclusion (godidit) and work their way backwards. Their views are based on faith, not science. So if scientific evidence contradicts their faith, then the science “must” be wrong, and any god of the gaps, logical fallacy or misrepresentation that supports this conclusion, is held up as support for their position. Notably this issue is only really a problem for literalist or fundamentalist religious positions. Many religious people have no problem with evolution. In fact some see the denial of evolution as a denial of god’s masterful handiwork.

You also write “that science doesn’t have everything figured out yet.” Hooray! You are absolutely right. What do you think the basis of science is, other than trying to answer unanswered questions? I’m always baffled by these statements.

The best people to tell you that we “haven’t figured out everything” are the people who spend their lives trying to figure things out.

In regards to life’s origins, there is a nice summary here regarding some of the new pieces to the puzzle that have been found, and some of the pieces we’re still trying to find.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/science/16orig.html?_r=2

@Hobosnake You need to re-read my post. You missed the point. Media ≠ Science.

Go grab a copy of Bad Science by Ben Goldacre if you want a great read on this very topic. I’m not saying that scientists can’t be idiots (we’re people after all and there are lots of idiots in this profession as there are in any), but you can’t use what you hear in a documentary to justify your statement.

mattbrowne's avatar

@toyhyena – Yes, science doesn’t have everything figured out yet. Did I sound combative? Sorry, if I did. Heated debates are what fuels scientific progress. It might sound like battles to some. Science will figure out more.

But if we’re looking for an ultimate answer, we would either have to ask the lawmaker of the universe or assume the universe/multiverse by itself simply had no other choice but to put the natural laws in place the way they are.

Hobosnake's avatar

@Critter38 Yes, you’re right. I did miss your point. However, you made your own slightly in my favor anyways. The media is not always perfectly indicative of science, but it’s what we hear, and what we generally believe. I don’t think all the trouble in over-assumption is in the media either, however. I’m pretty sure scientists do far too much of it as well. Good point, however.

Ivan's avatar

@toyhyena

We should not be giving credibility to an argument simply because creationists use it. Quite the opposite, if anything.

virtualist's avatar

Scientists_NotGod

….my take on the ’ take-home message ’.... fewer than 10% of members of the National Academy of Sciences ‘believe in ‘God’ ’

mattbrowne's avatar

There are many studies trying to determine what the world’s scientists believe. It also depends on the questions. Do you believe in God? Many who answer ‘no’ are actually agnostic but sometimes counted as atheists. There are also many scientists who are deist, which is sometimes also counted as atheists.

Atheism is the belief that a deity doesn’t exist. It’s not the result of an observation or an experiment. Many scientists admit that they simply don’t know.

Critter38's avatar

@mattbrowne

“There are also many scientists who are deist, which is sometimes also counted as atheists.”

How do you know that there are many scientists who are deists if they are so difficult to census?

“Atheism is the belief that a deity doesn’t exist. It’s not the result of an observation or an experiment. Many scientists admit that they simply don’t know.”

That’s the “atheism is a faith” loaded definition. I think it far more accurate to say that atheists don’t be in god the way you don’t believe in fairies. It’s not a belief in the non-existence of an entity, it’s simply the lack of belief in an entity that hasn’t provided any compelling evidence for its existence.

Many scientists (myself included) readily acknowledge that we don’t know…how can we “know”? The universe is mighty big and people’s definitions of a deity are notoriously slippery.

I don’t believe in god(s), which makes me an atheist, but I am agnostic (like (as far as I can remember) every atheist I have met) with respect to the non-existence of god(s).

mattbrowne's avatar

@Critter38 – The concept of god is completely different from the concept of fairies. Fairies in a strict sense would be able to do things that violate physical laws. Fairies (like angels) seen as mythological creatures symbolize abstract concepts.

Yes, atheism is a belief system, not a science. We don’t have a scientific explanation for the meta-phenomenon of existence. Why are the physical laws the way they are? Why does the multiverse exist? We don’t know. There are two possible answers: it just does or a supreme being created it.

I’m a Christian (and a deist), but like you, scientifically speaking I’m agnostic.

Critter38's avatar

We agree on many things Matt, but please explain how you see atheism as a belief system? I’ve heard this asserted but I’ve never seen a convincing argument (especially considering the only definitive unifying feature of atheists is a disbelief in deities..hardly sounds like a “belief system” to me).

I absolutely agree atheism is not a science…never heard anyone suggest it was. Perhaps you define anything that isn’t a science as a belief system?

DarkScribe's avatar

@Critter38 please explain how you see atheism as a belief system?
Atheism is not a belief system, it is a refusal to believe in something.

I don’t believe in alien abductions, ghosts (Holy or mundane), witches, or the whitening power of detergents advertised on TV. It doesn’t automatically mean I believe in anything else – something specifically “anti” those things – why would it?

mattbrowne's avatar

In many cases it’s a belief system with the core belief being that god / a deity definitely does not exist. Some people only view strong atheism as a belief system. To me agnosticism as such is definitely not a belief system.

From Wikipedia: Strong atheism is a term popularly used to describe atheists who claim the statement “There is at least one god” is false. Weak atheism refers to any other type of non-theism, wherein a person does not believe any deities exist, but does not claim that same statement is false.

benjaminlevi's avatar

@mattbrowne As a “weak atheist” I really think that phrase needs a different name.

I understand the need to differentiate that stance with strong atheism, but I think that “weak atheism” should just be called “atheism”. (but I know people think “strong atheism” when they hear atheism as me and Ivan have had to explain how wrong they were)

mattbrowne's avatar

@benjaminlevi – Are you a Wikipedia editor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism

Historically, the terms positive and negative atheism have been used for this distinction.

Feel free to edit the article. I can live with different terms as long as the logical distinction remains clear.

meatheadbox's avatar

God by definition is a being beyond the physical realm, therefore, how can any mortal who is bound to the corporeal existence, be able to say such comments as believing/not believing in God? Science is just an accoutrement to elucidate the tangible universe. Philosophy (logic-rational) is a human beings implement to explicate the unfathomable to which mankind believes will succor people to choose the predominate decision to advocate for/against God, rather then a mere leap of faith.However, philosophical approaches remain inconclusive as both sides hold strong/weak arguments for/against God with human reason as the only means of proof. Key word (unfathomable). The truth of matter is that there are only two choices: agnosticism (don’t know-will never know) or a leap of faith to believe for/against God. Just to make the point clear, for/against God are choices based on uncertainty as there will never be conclusive answers but are done anyway using feelings for faith with human reasoning.

LostInParadise's avatar

If God has no impact on the physical realm then it makes no difference whether of not there is a God. The point is that whether directly or indirectly God is supposed to be able to have impact on the physical world. If the laws of science are able to account for what we see then there would be no reason to believe.

HIMG's avatar

Why don’t you believe in God but can believe in the big bang theory?
The only big bang theory I believe is: God spoke it and bang it happened! =)
God is real and He IS coming back someday (SOON)
I’m not trying to scare anyone but there is a Heaven & a Hell there IS a (the one and ONLY God) and there is a devil!
The devils plan is to blind you from the truth! Don’t fall into his lies! Please listen to me God loves you!! No matter what you have done what you’ve done or where you have been! God will ALWAYS forgive you He is the God of 2…3…4… Chances but that doesn’t mean you can go out unto the world and sin left and right but NOBODY is perfect that’s why He sent his one and only son for whosoever believes in Him will not perish but hve everlasting life!!
Even if you don’t believe in Him He is still God and He is still coming back weather your ready or not… It’s your choice :)
even if your a good person that won’t make you go to heaven the only way is to ask Jesus into your heart!
(here’s a prayer:
dear Jesus I’m sorry for everything I’ve done I confess with my mouth that I’ve been a sinner but I want to change and know you more right now I say that I believe that you came here for me then you died on the cross and 3 days later you rose again come into my heart and be the Lord of my life thank you Jesus Amen)
if you truly said this prayer Jesus is in your heart!! Congrats now your in the family of God!! I hope that you did now I can see you in Heaven!! =D

I DONT want anyone to go to Hell it’s a horibble place there’s NO rest there’s screaming and nashing at the teeth torment anything horrible you can imagian!
BUT
there’s heaven a wounderful place a place where you can be free and have peace you will have your own mansion it’s going to be amazing!!
BUT
the choice is YOURS no matter what choice you make Jesus loves you He made you!
I hope that I helped you out there IS a God!
Thanks for reading
Love in Christ,
KT =)

LostInParadise's avatar

How do you know that what you are saying is true? If you tell me that it is because it is written in the Bible, then how do you know the Bible is correct? Is the Koran correct also? How can you decide?

Axemusica's avatar

It has to be cross referenced with the Necronomicon @LostInParadise. There you will find your asnwers.

HIMG's avatar

How can you believe that it’s not true?
I believe with ALL my heart that God sent him only son to die for us..
Well in history it has the saying BC which means Before Christ so there’s a point in history which we know that Jesus was real! =)
there is only one true God.

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