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Parrappa's avatar

Why do people choose faith instead of facts?

Asked by Parrappa (2428points) September 16th, 2009

Not really a question, more of a discussion.

How come people refuse to believe facts and well developed theories like evolution and instead turn to faith, aka belief, and believe something with no facts, proof, evidence etc. to support it’s existence? It baffles me that people can just say “Hey I have faith!” and that makes it alright.

Oh and to anyone that is going to play the “it’s just that, a theory” card, that’s not enough to refute evidence

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72 Answers

dpworkin's avatar

A cold, accidental, contingent, uncaring, unyielding, annihilating Universe is very frightening.

In Freudian terms, the phenomenon is called Denial, qv

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

You need to learn more about faith and belief if you think it is just something said on a whim.

rebbel's avatar

Because all most people (can) do is assume that the facts they are presented with are true.
I mean, when was the last time you checked that the earth is in fact a sphere as opposed to flat?
Assuming, in my idea, comes close to believing.

ESV's avatar

There’s blind faith and examined faith, which one you are talking about?

BBSDTfamily's avatar

Evolution doesn’t necessarily go against Christianity, fyi.

Parrappa's avatar

@rebbel, it’s not like I just read on some random website that the earth was sphere. That’s a tried and true fact. I, and I hope many other people, don’t just believe whatever is said. Prime scientific websites will have evidence leading up to why so-and-so is true. And where at all did I assume things were as they were?

@BBSDTfamily, it has nothing to do with Christianity, it was merely an example of belief.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@Parrappa Maybe b/c people have different perceptions of what is believable “evidence” of such theories. Everyone has to decide for themself what makes sense to them.

rebbel's avatar

I thought (looking at your questioning) that you meant that some people fail to see the facts for what they are and that that automaticaly means that others assume that these facts are true.
When i wrote you i didn’t mean to say that you are one of those that automaticaly assume that facts are true.
Better would have been to write: ”I can’t remember the last time that i checked if the earth is a sphere.”

Edit: That and i have difficulty to explain exactly what i want to say, in English.

dalepetrie's avatar

Consider faith, how it is developed, how it is manifested and how it is supported.

The VAST majority (though certainly not all) of people of faith have the same basic faiths as did their parents. And these matters of faith follow broad geographic patterns as well. In the US if you smack a random dude on the street, you’re likely to hit some manner of Christian. In Israel, you’re more likely than not to hit a Jew. In India, a Hindu, in the Middle East a Muslim, in Thailand a Buddhist (though each has different offshoots). With each Religion comes absolute faith in the answers that religion provides. There is no greater evidence to me that all religions are superstitions invoked by the predominate cultural forces and institutionalized by the holders of power in each region. If it is part of the culture to hold to a certain set of beliefs, ideals, morals, etc., it becomes far easier to accept it and go with the flow than to question the official answers. And the bottom line there is that when you consider that a traditional bell curve with a standard deviation shows us that a full 84% of all people when measured on ANY scale, in this case perhaps intellectual, curious, intelligent, etc….will be average or below average. It is generally only the people who are of above average intellectual curiosity who ever dare to question the answers society gives them, that’s about 16% of the people. You want to know how many people worldwide currently consider themselves atheist, agnostic or non-denominational? Ding ding ding, 16%.

But let’s look at this less as an overall cultural exercise and more of an extension of familial mores. I have a rather large family, both sides come from predominately Lutheran roots. If you extend it back a few generations, the great grandparents were Lutheran, and today, among my 15 or so aunts and uncles and dozens of cousins, most are Lutheran, with the occasional atheist, Catholic or Southern Baptist thrown in for good measure. But all are still Christian. I’m one of only two people I know of in a family of perhaps 100 people who does not identify with a religion. Fact is, most people, if they have an upbringing where church is part of their lives, will come out of this rather structured indoctrination process with both an ingrained faith in the teachings of the church and a fear of questioning those same teachings.

Consider what church tells you….1) We know what the origins of man are, you don’t have to consider that you were descended from filthy apes. 2) We know why we’re here, you no longer have to search for purpose in your life because God is your purpose. 3) You don’t really die, you go to Heaven, if you believe in God, but if you don’t believe, you will suffer an eternity of fire and brimstone. Believe us and you will be happy both in life and throughout eternity. Question us and you will suffer forever. And let’s say you opt out of that system, well, you are left with more questions than answers, and you are left with the unappealing idea that everything you experience ends up being nothing more than worm food. It’s a very attractive system, and people who want power, just like in politics, can and do exploit it for personal gain.

Consider faith healers, televangelists, and other people who say essentially, follow me and your life will be better. Add in a few rituals to make it seem official and legitimate, and viola, you’ve got a recipe for appealing to the inherent needs of man to fit in somewhere. It’s much harder to find meaning in life, and much harder to find solace in the bad times if you don’t believe someone’s got your back, that whatever happens, there is a plan…it’s a tremendous comfort, and even if your average Joe might question the logic, when to do so means you are giving up your illusions, well it just ain’t worth it.

Now having said that, often religions are open to enough interpretation that they will allow for correction of gaping holes in logic…it’s only when you’re talking about fundamentalists…people who believe in the holy texts to the letter, because they believe they were dictated by God himself (whatever God that might be), when you’re going to run into the person who says that man is only 6,000 years old and existed with the dinosaurs. It happens, but it’s about 10% of the population…10% of anything is the fringe, and in any opinion there will ALWAYS be a fringe element.

In summary, people believe what they are told…consider that indoctrination into a faith often begins at birth, you are baptized, brought along to weekly sermons, then you go to Sunday school, and eventually have a confirmation (I’m using Christianity as an example, but all religions have similar structures). Until you’re about 9 years old, there IS no such thing as maybe, there is yes OR no, black OR white, God OR no God. You are told by the people who you trust and see as your role models that the world is a certain way, and that you are not to question it, basically constantly during the period of time when you are learning EVERYTHING about the world around you, and there is a VERY small chance that you will ultimately reject it. You’d have to believe that your parents were lying or wrong all these years, plus you’re indoctrinated with the fear of “what if” I reject these teachings and they are true? Am I ready to go to hell? 84 times out of 100, the answer will be a resounding no, logic be damned.

rebbel's avatar

@dalepetrie My compliments.

laureth's avatar

People are notoriously irrational.

eponymoushipster's avatar

i don’t know, but i can’t imagine why people would leave their existence up to chance and descending from animals.

YARNLADY's avatar

Faith is apparently derived from an internal experience. Since I don’t have it, it is difficult to discuss, but from what I gather, it’s akin to trying to describe “sight” to a blind person.

dpworkin's avatar

@YARNLADY No blind person I know has any difficulty understanding the concept of sight, and I know many, many blind people. Your ignorance and intolerance are showing.

YARNLADY's avatar

@pdworkin In your personal experience, you have found that being blind is not the affliction that I would find it to be if I were to lose my sight. However, as an example of what it is like to try to explain something that you and I can experience to someone who can’t, it is not ignorant nor intolerant.

tinyfaery's avatar

Facts can be disproved, but faith cannot.

Parrappa's avatar

Faith can’t be proven though…

Darwin's avatar

Because there isn’t as much memorization with faith.

dannyc's avatar

I think most people could care less about facts, that takes work and thought. Most people would rather just watch the NFL, which is entirely based on faith in your team, for example. It really is simple. Too much analysis, most people can’t handle that. Sometimes to our collective detriment. All entertainment vehicles count and profit on the natural tendency of lazy intellect.

JLeslie's avatar

Many Christians I have met think it is a fact that God created the universe and all life. What I don’t get about the evolution question is why do some of these people seem disgusted by the idea of evolution. I also know Christians, as stated above, who do accept concepts such as evolution, because they see it does not have to be mutually exclusive. You can believe God is the creator, created all that was necessary for evolution to occur, and that this is part of the physical world, and the human soul is still God given. I also, really don’t understand why some insist on rejecting proof that has been provided. I think if they take the bible literally, every single word is true and accurate, then evolution is impossible, and I have heard people state that if one thing is wrong you have to throw the whole book out, which I think makes no sense, but if you believe that then you are terrified to question one idea I guess?

dalepetrie's avatar

@JLeslie – most of the conservatives I’ve met who are “disgusted” by the idea of evolution can’t bear to think that they’re related to apes. Apes are filthy and fling poo at each other after all.

JLeslie's avatar

@dalepetrie I just came to realize this very recently, maybe in the last few years.

CMaz's avatar

It all starts with faith.
First the trust, then the facts.

If the facts do not add up, you are back to faith.

The cycle of life.

Darwin's avatar

@dalepetrie – I’m afraid I have met all to many Homo sapiens who are also filthy and fling poo. In fact, I live with one who also likes to pee on the floor near but not in the toilet.

I always figured that primate destructiveness was a trait apes and humans have in common, which leads me all the more to believe in evolution. I just don’t think we have evolved very far.

dalepetrie's avatar

@Darwin – in defense of the North American male Homo Sapien floor pee-er, some times both unexpectedly and unbenounced to owner of the hydraulic device which is meant to deliver the urine into the porcelain receptacle, the stream may fork or branch off so that even though the aim is dead on, a much smaller, almost invisible to the naked eye stream is delivering urine to the floor near but not in the toilet. Something a person who does not own one of these bad boys may not have been aware of. Couple that with either poor eyesight or a poor attention to detail, and this event, though unfortunate and frequent, is often neither intended nor noticed.

dalepetrie's avatar

@JLeslie – the better solution is to become aware of this is my point. I suspect that many men do not know this is happening, and particularly if there is more than one male in the house, it’s very easy to say “I didn’t do it”. Perhaps if the expectation is that one takes a paper towel and wipes around the bowl every time, one might become aware and do whatever one can to keep the stream in tact, or clean up afterwards. Real men don’t sit to pee.

CMaz's avatar

“Real men don’t sit to pee.”

Unless they are really large. In the waist that is.

Darwin's avatar

@dalepetrie – When my husband does it, it is an accident and he tells me about it so I can clean it up. He is disabled and can’t do it himself. It also embarrasses him mightily.

However, when my son does it he acts with purpose. He only does it when he is mad at me and never tells me about it or cleans it up himself, although he is physically able to do so. However, he has improved in that he no longer pees in his room, my room, or the kitchen any longer, and he knows not to do it in front of me. While I might like grandchildren someday I don’t require them so I have no compunction about considering Lorena Bobbit and her actions, other than the legality of it and the mess the blood would make.

Of course, today in addition to peeing on the floor, he dropped a glass into the toilet where it broke and refused to have anything to do with retrieving it. However, he had no problem traipsing through his own urine and spreading it into the laundry room and kitchen.

And you really don’t want to know what he does with poo. Two different psychologists and a psychiatrist are currently trying to drum into his head that poo is stuff your body throws away so you really don’t want to keep it or play with it.

He is 15, BTW, so we aren’t talking about a toddler still in diapers.

Jferrato7's avatar

Big Bang Theory…..Can’t be proven either. What an ignorant statement to say that why do people chose faith instead of facts…What facts prove there isnt a Christian God? Or that there was no Jesus? Or for any God for that matter? I find it funy that people can believe the big bang theory…That something came from nothing…but cant believe Something greater created this world from nothing. Theres a good quote by Francis Bacon that I love… “A little philosopy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion” I understand people want to be scientific but if you actually do the research and view other opinions and theories…you’d actually begin to have more questions than your so called facts. My reason for belief in Christianity isnt based on facts…its based on faith. Just like your reason for believe in science, evolution from apes, big bang theory, etc….is also based on Faith. They are called theories for a reason. Obviously there is truth in science but In terms of religion/science based issues…there isnt one thing proven for sure. And to claim that one is superior over another is absurd.

Jferrato7's avatar

@Parrappa “Oh and to anyone that is going to play the “it’s just that, a theory” card, that’s not enough to refute evidence” Show me some hard proven facts and evidence….Any way you spin it or make it sound…It is just a theory so dont play the whole…its facts and truths card. Cause thats more of your ignorance showing through.

Jferrato7's avatar

Once again Im not claiming that Christianity is the final answer…you believe what you want. Obviously there is no right and wrong answer. But to think you have the answers…well thats asinine.

Critter38's avatar

@Jferrato7 You’re a bit off track there mate. I’ll keep this short because the mistakes you’re making are so common you are bound to find very detailed answers here or elsewhere on the net. Keep your faith by all means, but just try not to justify it using flawed reasoning and falsehoods.

“What facts prove there isnt a Christian God?”

You can’t prove the non-existence of anything. Try it sometime.

“I find it funy that people can believe the big bang theory…That something came from nothing…”

The big bang theory doesn’t say that. Strawman argument (google it).

“Just like your reason for believe in science, evolution from apes, big bang theory, etc….is also based on Faith.”

No, science is based on observation and experimentation. Science is the antithesis of faith because it demands that claims are backed up by evidence, not revelation, circular reasoning, or argument from authority. Also, modern apes and humans share a common ancestor, we did not evolve from modern apes (just in case you’re making that mistake).

“They are called theories for a reason.”

You’re confusing what you mean by a theory (more akin to a hypothesis) with what scientists mean by a theory.

From the U.S. National Academy of Sciences “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.”

“Show me some hard proven facts and evidence”

Visit http://www.talkorigins.org/

There you will find abundant and overwhelming evidence for evolution. Better yet, go buy yourself a copy of “The Greatest Show on Earth”, by Richard Dawkins, or any one of the vast numbers of text books of evolution available at your local library (hopefully). Jerry Coyne also has a very good book on evolution as well I believe.

If you’re not too keen on reading beyond your accepted position, then perhaps you might just consider spending 10 minutes watching this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8&feature=channel_page

The truth might set you free.

“Cause thats more of your ignorance showing through.”

No. Not really how I would call it.

“Obviously there is no right and wrong answer.”

There are answers that fit the evidence far better than others, and there are some questions we don’t have answers for. Science is the best systematic reality approximater we have. It’s a shame you chose to ignore some of its most fascinating discoveries.

Good luck on your quest.

dalepetrie's avatar

@Darwin – YIKES! And I thought my 8 year old was a handful!

mattbrowne's avatar

Most educated people choose facts and faith. Today we know the fact that there’s a good model in physics to unify the electromagnetic and the weak interaction. Many people have faith that further scientific research and progress will allow us to unify all four fundamental forces. Can there be a time when world societies are able to handle conflicts without resorting to wars? Can we eventually give up nuclear weapons? I have faith. As a matter of fact since 1945 no atomic bombs were dropped on cities.

JLeslie's avatar

Zuma wrote on another question, “I’ve debated people who seriously believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old; that the entire globe was submerged beneath water; that the grand canyon was cut within a few days during Noah’s flood, and that the entire fossil record was laid down in the same period. Then, as evidence, they presented a table comparing a dozen different Great Flood myths which actually disproved their case.”

I think that is the kind of bulls$@t we are talking about. Something that is ridiculous, but some people of faith believe it. It is not that atheists and scientist think everything the faithful believe is stupid, it is that when there is a complete lack of acceptance, even denial of science that it, I will go as far to say, is harmful. My neighbor’s mother believe’s the earth is only 4,000 years old. Doesn’t carbon dating go back farther than that? I had never heard that before. I mean I got married in the year 5753 by the Jewish calendar, where does she get 4,000 years for the earth? Happy New Year by the way :).

CMaz's avatar

Time is the big problem. Some would say the enemy. It is so exacting and controlling.
We try to inject it into things that don’t fit into our time frame. Birth to death.
You want to believe the heaves and earth were created in 6 days? 6 days being such an exacting time frame, but comprehensible.
A “story” from a generation of people that barley could comprehend more then a few generations of a family tree.
WE still (some) want to hold on to that frame of mind today.
In the big scheme of things. 6 days or 6 trillion years. Still an incredible process. Even for someone that is not limited by time as we perceive it.

Putting mans face on God.

Jferrato7's avatar

@Critter38 I understand where your coming from…and that’s great that you want to tell me how “wrong I am” but the fact of the matter is…You cant prove either and that was my point. My point is exactly what you proved for me…so Thank you for acting the way you did. It was perfect. I can spew off sites for creationism, throw out facts, articles, videos, etc as well…but that wasnt what I was trying to do. Im not here to prove you wrong. Believe what you want mate Have you done any research? Cause actually there is tons of research out there…proving creationism…so instead of telling someone what they need to do…Take a look at yourself. And just becasue you so blindly believe what everything a scientist says is true..,doesnt mean it is mate
Because a Theory is just a theory…and Ill stick to that…. You can put flowers on shit but that doesnt mean it still doesnt stink like shit. I can postulate plenty of theories and claim that Im a scientist. Just like scientists thought carbon dating proved it all….Oh wait….until they realized how wrong they were and that carbon dating isnt as accurate as they thought. So in conclusion….your answer was good. Lots of links, lots of “facts”, lots of telling me what I need to do, etc. Problem I have with it….No originality…I feel like I read the same thing that every other single person wrote. So thanks for the links…Ill check them out…because unlike some people no I am actually not afraid to look at every aspect of an idea. The difference is when I walk outside…look around and see the couple walking their baby, the trees blowing in the wind, the cars driving by, and the animals running across the grass…I feel alot more comfortable about my answer then believe something that cant be proven by science seems to think they can.

mattbrowne's avatar

Atheists are paying too much attention to the young-earth creation jerks.

JLeslie's avatar

@mattbrowne Because they are stressing us out. They are so vocal politically, it is part of the problem we are having in my country now. I am not talking about people who are in opposition to Obama and some of his policies, I am talking about the ones who are in opposition and put scare tactics out there like “death panels” and that liberals don’t have “family values.” When they quit being offensve and lying, maybe we will stop.

I saw the chief science advisor to the president on TV, don’t remember his name, and he stated the person he replaced with the change in administration was VERY frustrated under Bush. That Bush was not very interested in science. And, I think most of us attribute that to his religiousity. Maybe he was just stupid?

We, understand that not all theists and not all Christian’s discard science, don’t worry about that. You are not someone who would be included in our rant and frustration regarding religious people who don’t want to look at facts and science.

dpworkin's avatar

Oh, by the way, at sunset today the world will be 5770 years old! Happy Birthday, lil World!

Darwin's avatar

@dalepetrie – Wanna trade?

dalepetrie's avatar

@Darwin – that’s alright, I’m not even ready for a well adjusted teenager just yet.

laureth's avatar

“Zuma is crafting a response…” for quite a while. I have a feeling it’ll be a good one!

Jferrato7's avatar

Just cause an answer is long doesnt mean its right…or good.

Zuma's avatar

In his long answer above @dalepetrie explains the persistence of faith through time but not why people like @Jferrato7 prefer to believe in things that are contrary to the facts, which I think is what the questioner is really asking.

I would hate to think that being grounded in reality was something subject to the Bell Curve as @dalepetrie seems to suggest. That implies reality-connectedness is a kind of psychological trait, like extroversion or optimism that one is either born with or lacks. It also implies that most people live in a haze of superstition and irrationality, shading off into delusion and psychosis at one end, and full rationality and deep insight into the (scientific) nature of reality at the other. This psychological view is actually quite pessimistic, insofar as there is nothing much you can do about the distribution of a psychological trait in a population.

An alternative view is that disconnectedness from reality is an abnormal state of affairs. More specifically it is a kind of cultural meme which infects the culture of the body politic much like a nasty virus. To be clear, I should emphasize that what I am talking about here is not the ordinary faith of the vast majority of believers, which is generally tempered by the humility of doubt, but the pathological faith of fundamentalist True Believers, who bypass the problem of doubt by jettisoning all human authority in favor of the authority of scripture. Accordingly, they embrace scripture as the ultimate arbiter of reality, and view any form of doubt as apostasy, backsliding, and sin.

This, of course, didn’t come out of nowhere. It has its origins in the Protestant Reformation. Specifically, it is a reaction to the Catholic Church’s abuse of the idea that one can gain access to heaven by doing good works—which the Church conveniently provided in the form of purchased indulgences. In breaking with this tradition, the Protestants proposed that Faith Alone was sufficient for salvation, and scripture became the touchstone of that belief. At one stroke, there was no longer a need for the Catholic confessional, which had fallen into disrepute for demanding that the faithful purchase indulgences as a penance. Unfortunately, without a confessional to expiate guilt, the Protestants became positively obsessed, to the point of hysteria, about sin and damnation.

To make matters worse, they became severe disciplinarians who beat their children from infancy onward in order to break their wills and reduce them to unquestioning obedience in order to prepare them for God’s wrathful judgment, which might arrive at any moment. This coupling of corporal punishment with theology has served to convince generations of Protestants that they personally, and human nature generally, was totally depraved, and therefore could only be ruled by fear, baked up by threat of punishment both in this world and the next.

This combination of child abuse, religious indoctrination, and cult-like insularity has been brewing in America’s Bible Belt for almost two centuries now. And, it has produced a kind of low-empathy, low self-esteem, humanity-despising, authoritarian, anti-intellectual, highly fearful and anxious individual who is almost uniquely susceptible to political and religious indoctrination—particularly to messages of the “us” versus “them” sort, which seem to divide the world into “good guys” and “bad guys.”

The idea of scriptural inerrancy, while present since the 18th Century, did not really gain wide currency until the 20th Century in the evangelizing of Born Again Christians. Here, faith demands a renunciation of all forms of secular and humanist thought in favor of a conversion experience in which one literally turns oneself over, mind, body and soul to God. And, in this God-centered reality, anything that contradicts the authority of scripture must be cast out as “against God” and therefore “evil.” Sadly, rationality and human empathy have to be avoided under threat of eternal damnation.

As a consequence, the intellects of True Believers tend to become compromised. They literally can not reason like the rest of us because to do so because secular reality severely threatens the authority of scripture, upon which their whole God-centered reality rests. In this respect, the Born Again conversion experience literally unhinges them from the reality that the rest of us live in and consigns them to a rigid but brittle belief system from which it is difficult to recover (although some people do).

Unfortunately, once immunized to reason and fact-based reality testing in the religious domain, why should reason and fact-based reality testing apply in the political domain? Thus, the Religious Right is also now the loony fringe of the political Right, and we see these folks featured prominently in the national dialogue. And what we are seeing now is a drumming up of apocalyptic fervor in anticipation of an End-of-Days final conflict between Good and Evil. The increasingly violent rhetoric of the Right—the town hall disruptions, people taking guns to protest rallies, the killing of abortion doctors, the steady drumbeat of “birthers” and “deathers” in an attempt to delegitimate Obama are all stoked by the sense that an apocalyptic war between Good and Evil are building to a head.

The inarticulate rage of the teabaggers is only inarticulate because the movement dares not articulate what they are really all about—which is a contempt for the democratic process, which has pushed them out of power; a sense of betrayal among whites that their county has been taken over by non-whites and Others; throw in a bit of anxiety that bad economic times always brings, and the agitprop disseminated by Fox News and the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck (featured here as a self-styled German propaganda minister ) and you have an incipient fascist movement centered on Christianity.

I am using the term fascism here advisedly, and not as most people us it simply as a brush to tar people that I disapprove of. There are 14 defining criteria of fascism, and the American Right is clearly tilting very strongly in that direction. This would not be possible were it not that so many Americans have been so intellectually compromised that they tend to think almost entirely in terms of cliches and catch phrases.

As Frank Schaeffer was saying the other night on the Rachel Maddow show, it is as if we have allowed the village idiot to hijack the national dialogue. The more we take them seriously, the more our nation’s policies get led astray. Those who wonder why we have so many questions about religion on Fluther and elsewhere, it is because we are trying to extricate ourselves from this national hangover. We are in the process of trying to make up our minds what to do with these folks. Take them seriously, or ignore them. And if we ignore them, how do we do so? With ridicule and scorn? Or with some measure of Christian understanding and compassion? And how do we pull that off? How do we extricate them from the national conversation without humiliating them and driving them further into their unreality, where they may emerge even more virulent than before.

We take the loyalty of the armed services for granted. But there is a very strong Dominionist presence in the US Air Force. If there were an actual right-led rebellion, and these folks got hold of a few nukes, or even a stock of conventional weapons, we could all be living under a theocratic regime that would make Sharia law look positively lenient. If crashing a couple of airliners into a couple of skyscrapers can plunge the whole country into panic and recession, imagine what a determined Armageddon-bound group of fanatics could accomplish if they got a hold of a number of predator drones.

I don’t think we can afford to be complacent in the face of militant True Believers, so onward with the religious debates until we can figure out how best to deal with our village idiot bretheren.

Jferrato7's avatar

@Zuma Whew…that was quite a mouthful! I like the opinions expressed though

laureth's avatar

@Jferrato7 – I’ve seen many of Zuma’s answers – and we often agree, which is why I said that.

Jferrato7's avatar

@laureth Oh no problem I was just playing around

Jferrato7's avatar

I find that fact that he feels reality is contingent upon being a non-believer…but I’ve already said my piece here, so I’m not getting into it. His opinion was enjoyable to read but i believe it should be highly regarded as opinionated and biased, almost to the point of completely hatred agains faith. So it definitely should be taken with a grain of salt. Thought I was reading something out of a Stephen Hawking book…lol

deni's avatar

Lets look at other things that some people try to pretend exist but there is no evidence that they do – Loch Ness monster, sasquatch, santa clause, chupacabra…and then god, except that one gets way more attention and wars are fought over it and people are killed.

laureth's avatar

@Jferrato7 – please note that Zuma expressly said, “I should emphasize that what I am talking about here is not the ordinary faith of the vast majority of believers, which is generally tempered by the humility of doubt, but the pathological faith of fundamentalist True Believers, who bypass the problem of doubt by jettisoning all human authority in favor of the authority of scripture.”

It sounds like the vast majority of believers are not what he’s talking about; ergo, reality is not contingent on being a non-believer.

Jferrato7's avatar

@laureth Well obviously reality is not the same in someone with Psychological Issues; ergo, his points are irrelevant. I mean I would think were talking about normal functioning human beings…not people with personality disorders.

Zuma's avatar

@Jferrato7 There is faith, and there is Faith, and a separate reality to each.

The question is which reality is “normal” and sane—the one where people believe in things that are patently unbelievable, because one thinks it pleasing to God? Or to live in a world that is rationally-coherent, tested and verified by the vast bulk of human knowledge?

Indeed, which personality is disordered, a faith-based God-centered personality that pushes one’s rationality and empathy to the margins? Or a human-centered personality which is rational, centered on facts that all of humanity can test and verify, and responsive to the moral claims of one’s fellow man.

You are new to Fluther so you don’t know me very well. (Welcome.) You will find, if you search my answers to past questions, that I am not not so easily pigeon-holed as your typical God-denying atheist. I am a Deist, which means that I believe in a remote and impersonal God who can be found in the deep mathematical order of the Cosmos, and who does not violate that order in order to intervene in the affairs of men.

I am against Theism (and hence a-theist), on the grounds that I find the whole realm of the supernatural to be logically and factually improbable at best; but, more importantly, because I find it deeply immoral, and therefore offensive, for any being, supernatural or otherwise, to bend or suspend the laws of the Cosmos in order to terrify and coerce lesser beings—or to favor one group or individual over any other. It is in this regard that I find the God of the Old Testament violent, abusive, immoral, and unworthy of belief.

So, you are correct. I do have a distinct point of view, and tend to be “biased” in favor of it, as you are to yours. But I strive not to be intellectually dishonest about it. I see Christ and Buddha as turning points in human moral evolution. Hence, I do not view evolution as something to be ashamed of or as something to deny, but as a sacred moral trust. And, to that end, I have faith that if we act in good faith, respect human dignity, and include all living things in our quest for survival, then everything will turn out alright.

You cannot assume that simply because someone disagrees with you that their viewpoint is invalid, or that their viewpoint is necessarily shaped by pathology. That is why we are supposed to love our enemies, so that we may learn from them about our own blind spots.

laureth's avatar

As my very Christian grandma used to say, “God gave us brains for a reason, and it would be wrong to not use them.”

mattbrowne's avatar

@pdworkin – I’m very puzzled by your choice of words like the totally unscientific term “sunset”. Everybody knows the sun doesn’t set. So if you believe the world in about 6000 years old and God created the world in 6 days, do you also believe that the sun sets?

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma – It’s my understanding that deism is a subset of theism rejecting the notion of divine interventions. I also believe that deists can be Christians for example.

From Wikipedia: In casual usage, “miracle” may also refer to any statistically unlikely but beneficial event, such as the survival of a natural disaster or even which regarded as “wonderful” regardless of its likelihood, such as birth. Other miracles might be survival of a terminal illness, escaping a life threatening situation or ‘beating the odds.’

In the bible, there are six eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. Ironically, the more advanced modern science gets, the better some of the explanations get, in this case neurobiology. If Jesus would have met the six eyewitnesses in a physical sense he would have grossly violated the divine laws of our universe. Like you I find this logically and factually improbable. The same applies to the six “days” of creation. So I totally agree with @laureth‘s grandma. Yes, God gave us brains for a reason, and it would be wrong to not use them.

dalepetrie's avatar

I wanted to address @Zuma‘s statement, “I would hate to think that being grounded in reality was something subject to the Bell Curve”.

That’s not what I’m trying to imply. I was more talking about a combination of intelligence and inquisitiveness that would make a person question those aspects of his or her indoctrination, which have become a core part of his or her being…that is what I see as tied to a bell curve. However, I do think that on the fringes of the bell curve, there are going to be the people who are COMPLETELY disconnected from reality, these would be your fundamentalists, which really represent about 10% of humanity, i.e. the fringe. In all matters, there is a continuum….from completely steeped in logic on one end of it, to completely disconnected from logic on the other end. Only a few on either end are completely “off the deep end” as it were, but as you move away from the extremes towards the center where most people exist, you end up in an area of “rational, yet somewhat superstitious” people. When you think about it, the majority of humanity is somewhat superstitious about some things, religion being a perfect example….just like there are 16% who just plain don’t buy into religion at all, I would expect 16% overall to put just a bit more stock in it than the average person, and I think when you start with a baseline of 10% or so fundamentalist/evangelical, you can see pretty easily that this is what you’d expect overall.

What I’m saying bottom line is that the reason the vast majority cling to some religious views at all, even the ones which don’t necessarily conform to the idea of being completely at odds with scientific discovery is a combination of being of average intelligence/intellect/curiosity, and the human trait of allowing inertia to guide us. So, what happens when it is FIRST discovered that some aspect of religion simply is out of touch with reality is that the masses are very slow to wake up to the facts…because it is the fringe element which controls the dialogue as it relates to pushing dogma downward to followers. If the officials of your religion basically dismiss a discovery and spread falsehoods about it to make it seem more like a half baked theory than a fully fleshed out scientific theory, then people will be slow to come to it. It’s not as if however you sat down each and every single person with religious views and presented them all with the unfiltered evidence that they would reject it. But it would be hard to have what you have been indoctrinated to believe be challenged in a way that would force you to reconsider even one small aspect, because then there’s a crack in the veneer and you maybe have to reconsider far more of it. No, just easier to bury one’s head in the sand, easier to believe the lies and the misinformation and the official word from the Pope or whomever that it’s all going to be alright and you don’t need to worry yourself with these minor details.

And that leads me to say that via this, I did explain “why people like @Jferrato7 prefer to believe in things that are contrary to the facts.” My explanation is that faith is strong, it is indoctrinated, and those who believe things contrary to the facts are on the fringe in terms of their ability to believe superstitious things and their inability to intellectualize/interpret data. A fanatic is a fanatic, if you believe up is down, black is white and day is night, ...let’s just say someone’s got to go against the grain or we would have no baseline for normal, rational, reasonable, etc.

dpworkin's avatar

@mattbrowne The sun do move.

mattbrowne's avatar

@pdworkin – Yeah, well, it wobbles a bit, sure. It’s also in orbit around the center of the galaxy. If you’re patient, the sun will “set”...

Jeruba's avatar

Faith is a constant. Facts can change; or rather, knowledge of facts can change. Some people have no tolerance for uncertainty.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

to me faith is uncertainy, @Jeruba interesting, huh?

Jeruba's avatar

Any chance, @Simone_De_Beauvoir, that that is because you are not a True Believer?

JLeslie's avatar

I agree with Jeruba, in that some people want answers, they can’t accept uncertainty. I see it as these people believe there is God that has all of the answers, and hold faith the one with all of the answers will protect them. They also see the world as there is a reason for everything. Your were bad, God is punishing you with an illness, things like that. Atheists, or people without faith, just accept that sometimes we don’t know, sometimes there is no reason why, things do happen randomly at times.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Jeruba
are you capitalizing that for some reason, some specific reason?
what am I supposed to be a true believer in?

Jeruba's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, yes, I used the caps ironically to give special status along with the weight of conviction to the notion of being a true believer, and I do not class you with that group.

But perhaps I misunderstood your remark. I thought you were saying that the thing not to be trusted is religion: the proper response to it, for you, is uncertainty. Which is where I thought you stood. But perhaps you were saying that to have real faith is to accept uncertainty? In that case, I have a wrong idea of your position, and my comment is pointless.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Jeruba To me having faith would be more of the uncertain position that not having faith

Jeruba's avatar

That’s what I thought. So—you are not a True Believer. Nor am I.

Storms's avatar

Because, whatever they are believing on faith is important to holding together the narrative that gives them security. For instance, someone who highly values their intellect might insist that macro-evolution is solid science because they see a 7 day Creation as too simplistic to challenge their super-powerful brain. Another person might deny that life undergoes biological changes over time in spite of the facts because they need to believe that their parents, who told them otherwise, are infallible.

Nirvana's avatar

So is it science vs religion? A very controversial and thought provoking debate that has been going on for a long time.Can they co exist?Of course!But the stigmata,dogmas and pretentious attitudes need to be dropped.We don’t have to pick a side and stick to it because of judgments by other people and God.Thus excluding stringent religious people and obviously fundamentalists and extremists.In fact there is very interesting article about the book “Science vs Religion:What Scientists Really Think.”
“Science vs. Religion reveals that many of our assumptions about the war between science and religion is simply untrue. Nearly 50 percent of the scientists Ecklund researched consider themselves religious, while many others are what she calls “spiritual entrepreneurs”, scientists who are finding creative ways for faith and science to coexist within their lives outside of the constraints of traditional religion. Only a small percentage of the scientists she surveyed and interviewed were actively anti-religion. Ecklund found that even atheist scientists were generally more moderate in their opinions of science and religion than she previously thought, and are actively interested in engaging in dialogue with religious scientists. Science vs. Religion reveals that like religion, the majority of scientists are moderates who believe in a balance between spirituality and science, leaving fundamentalists in the minority.“I grew up with Roman Catholic parents.I would consider myself now to be “spiritual”.I enjoy meditation and sometimes feel an inner energy.I look at Catholicism and the bible allegorically.I like to compare religions and take in some wisdom from each.And i love astrology and innovative science.I like to think of myself as having that balance.No one really knows for certain about God and after life until we die.And i know that the people who are choosing science or atheism and trying to debunk faith are using their brains but are ignoring their hearts.

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