Why does our society expect men to be raging maniacs who can't control themselves?

Not all people think this I assume. Shouldn’t say “we” unless you know their opinion.
Since I’m not a chick, I can’t answer this question.

@Samurai saying ‘we’ is a tool people use as not to isolate others, it is more inclusive and is often used in social work and the education field.

@Samurai: First off, of course you can answer. This is not meant only for women, but for everybody. Second off, I say “we” because generally “our” society thinks this.

@RedPowerLady: Just barely beat me there. Thanks!

@KatawaGrey you are quite welcome

@RedPowerLady Could be right about that.
@KatawaGrey Could be right about right also, but that’s not how you should phrase a debate. Its like saying; why do you think the terminator should have died in the movie sooner? I don’t think society thinks this as a whole, they may think that men are lazy pigs, but not rapists with no control.

Society doesn’t think that at all. Possibly some small part of society might, but certainly not all. I don’t know of anyone who would generalise like that – though I do read articles from people with a similar attitude – usually in feminist publications.

@Samurai: For the love of god man, get off my semantics! You may live in a lovely little cocoon where no one has any pre-existing ideas about people but the rest of us live in a world where sex, age, race etc., actually impact a person’s identity in the eyes of other people before they have even spoken. Guess what, this does apply to men. You may not like it, but that is the truth. If you have nothing constructive to add, move to another question.

Will do, sorry for trying to destroy your evil plot against men. ;D

Because some men act as though they have no self-control, and people tend to generalize using negative experiences?

I hope that we don’t think this way anymore. Many muslim nations believe this way and force women to cover themselves up from head to toe, because if a man sees a female ankle, he will rape…. That’s not how it works here in the United States. I am hoping we have come far enough to understand that it is the man responsible for his actions and not the women forcing the man to do wrong by dressing a certain way.

@jamielynn2328 Great answer! That’s why they dress like that huh.

@KatawaGrey I don’t think you and I live in the same society. I’m not talking semantics, I truly believe that the notion that rape is a woman’s fault is held by a very small minority, it is a notion that belongs to the past, not to modern American society. As @jamielynn2328, it is clearly common in some Muslim nations, but I don’t think it is common in the U.S. any more. So I really can’t think of any other answer to your question other than to say that I don’t think that way, I have never spoken to anyone I know who does think that way, and if I am wrong and it is still part of mainstream American culture, then I am glad to be out of the mainstream.

@gussnarp I want to give you an example because this phenomenon truly does happen and is part of our societies’ belief system. In fact I could provide many examples if this one doesn’t make the right point. Before I joined Fluther I was part of another Q&A site. A woman got on the site to ask what to do because she had been date-raped and was wondering if it were too late to take action. Normally a question would get 4–12 responses. This got 4 pages of responses, all from different users as at this site you can’t make more than one post. Every single person, every one told the woman not to push it any further. They told her it was her fault as it was a date-rape scenario, i.e. she chose to go on a date with this guy and was drinking with him. 4 pages of that have got to tell you that there is an overwhelming belief in our society that it is the woman’s fault.

Would you say that its someone else’s fault for making you angry in an argument? Its basically the same concept.

@RedPowerLady That’s just horrible. Still, I can’t really answer the question, because that mentality is so divorced from my own that I cannot relate to it. Sure, I think it says more about what these people expect of men than anything else, but why? I guess I can leave the thread since I for one cannot begin to answer it.

I must say though, I can only accept that all those comments actually said it was her fault, but if one only argued that she should not pursue it, that’s not necessarily saying it’s her fault. The sad truth is that in a date-rape scenario you must convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you were raped. When all you have to rely on is two people with opposite testimonies, it’s pretty hard to reach beyond reasonable doubt.

@gussnarp I’m sorry if I was unclear every one told her not to go further, the majority also said it was her fault.

@RedPowerLady: That is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. It’s like she should have known that this guy would try to do something simply because he is a man. the point of this question is to figure out why. I think @Facade hit the nail on the head. It’s simply one really nasty stereotype that gone blown up to include everyone.

@gussnarp The sad truth is that in a date-rape scenario you must convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you were raped.

In a news report here earlier this year investigators said that the majority of claims that were investigated regarding girls claiming to have been date raped – had their drinks spiked – there was no trace of anything other than excessive alcohol in their systems once the blood tests were analysed. The investigators claimed it was THE most common false claim made to Police – but that many were so drunk that they actually believed that they might have been dated raped, rather than picked guys up and voluntarily had sex while inebriated.

@KatawaGrey I haven’t attempted to answer the original question because I really don’t know where to begin. I also enjoyed @Facade ‘s response. In addition to that I think our system of patriarchy has a lot to do with the issue and our system of denying women their rights.

I’m beginning to think KatawaGrey and RedPowerLady are the same people. D;

@DarkScribe What you said can’t be true because if a woman is drunk she cannot legally give consent.

@RedPowerLady: I guess one can look at it that way, but I honestly think this is a fundamental idea that men can’t control themselves. I’m beginning to think that this is the kind of thing that only women see. I also think that people don’t realize that they believe this.

@KatawaGrey I also think that people don’t realize that they believe this.
now that is a very very good point

@DarkScribe Date rape doesn’t have to involve alcohol or drugs. And as @RedPowerLady said, if a woman is drunk she is not consenting. So she doesn’t remember what really happened, how can anyone know it is a false claim? The drink spiking claim might be false, but she might not just have been drunk, she might also have been pleading with him to stop. The rape claim cannot be called a false claim, just an unproven one.

@RedPowerLady What you said can’t be true because if a woman is drunk she cannot legally give consent.

It is true – consent is required if the other person involved is sober – if both are drunk it doesn’t come into it. Unless they could take blood tests from both parties at the time of the act there isn’t much anyone can do the next day. They are not unconscious, they are partying hard, but legally way too inebriated to drive a car or similar. The next day they claim to have had their drinks spiked – because they are “good” girls and wouldn’t have done it otherwise.

@DarkScribe
I was referring to this statement: bu that many were so drunk that they actually believed that they might have been dated raped, rather than picked guys up and voluntarily had sex.

It can’t be voluntary sex when drunk so therefore it is date rape. Now it could be date rape on both accounts if they are both drunk but still it is not voluntary.

@Samurai Nice thinking but i’m not one of those people on Fluther who have duplicate accounts.

Geez, chicks rape guys too.

@Samurai: When did we say that men can’t be raped by women? Also, I’ve noticed that you’ve posted an awful lot but haven’t posted anything of note, just criticisms of what everyone else has said.

@KatawaGrey I just think this is all crazy, yet I feel like somewhat caring you know?

@Samurai perhaps you are a bit “out of it” you know been hitting the peach schnops?

@RedPowerLady I’ve never done drugs in my life, why do all chicks assume this?

@Samurai: Well I want to actually know what you think. Think about it for a moment. How many times have you worried about a female friend going to see a guy by herself? Do you ever have that same worry when a male friend goes to see a female by himself? I’m guessing not.

Also, don’t think that either @RedPowerLady or I am stupid enough to miss that generalization-as-retort.

@Samurai cause you kinda act like it

Biologically, men are more driven by sexual urges than women are, as well as typically being more physically strong, forceful, and aggressive. Add those all up, and there is the fear of rape and/or attack. I don’t think it’s just a societal imposition; there is some basis in our biology. I do think, however, that society has a fascination with this kind of violent behavior, possibly because it is something that we could not imagine doing ourselves, so more attention is paid in the media to shocking events like rape. I don’t think it’s just a critique of men’s self-control.

Also, women’s self-control is dramatized in society and culture. The madonna-whore complex, the whole good girl/bad girl dichotomy in general, is a prime example.

@TitsMcGhee: A shining answer! Thank you so much for joining the conversation! I had considered the biological factor but I think it’s just too over-emphasized. The emphasis on such things in the media could help explain it.

Society doesn’t think that that men have the right to do as the please with women as far as I can tell (I don’t). Its a disorder in the brain, a sort of chaos, you’d be surprised by what people can do if something is altering their mood. If your going to say that another person made you angry, its just like saying it was her fault I raped her. It all depends on how big a deal it is. I’m sure some men think this because they assume that others are the source of their problems. This is how society has been in almost every culture.

@Samurai: Thank you for posting an actual answer. I will respectfully disagree for reasons I have already stated but I am glad you gave your opinion.

@KatawaGrey I try to answer things as simply as possible, always giving my opinion based on complex reasoning I do not care to remember. I’m glad you liked it, but still disapointed that you don’t agree.

Well, I disagree simply because I see evidence of this all the time. I hope that you don’t see this because it doesn’t happen to/around you rather than simply because you don’t see it.

From birth, boys are given leeway when it comes to acting out. Who hasn’t heard the phrase, “oh, their just being boys” as two kids express their frustrations by hitting, kicking and wrestling? As they grow up, little girls are told that if a boy hits you or teases you, or otherwise mistreats you it means he likes you. This just furthers the idea that physical aggression is tolerable and males are given leeway for “emotional outburst”. I think this cycle perpetuates and leaves a space for violence against women be an option for men who cannot appropriately express their painful emotions.

Because in some twisted fashion some people get off on the notion
I completely agree with you, though, this stereotype is harmful to all genders and is simply untrue nor does it have any basis in biology, because while certain physical differences are there in terms of size or whatever, the urge to hurt or rape is not gender specific but is a symptom of a sexist society and not inherent to any gender whatsoever…

@Samurai it would probably help your cause to stop using the term chicks…just sayin

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Today some chick said girls would rather be called a chick rather then be called a girl so I decided to do that on here as well. Besides, chicks are cute little birds. Girls also call themselves guys.

@Samurai well then the internet skills of the above birds are amazing
point is what works for one woman doesn’t for another
i was just thinking it’d help your cause
you don’t have to agree

I’m worried that a considerable amount of post have claimed something they are saying as fact but never give any resources to this information. e.g “Society thinks…” or “Society doesn’t think…”. What poll did you look at to get this information? If you are giving an opinion, claim it as one, but do not try to make it look like fact. Here is an article that would side with @KatawaGrey http://living.oneindia.in/men/he/why-men-rape-psychology.html . But even this article is a poor example of evidence due to bias the author has.

Here is my opinion – This is something a radical feminist would say, and is not looking for a discussion, but trying to get out her frustration (this is seen by her one sided argument trying to act as a discussion). There are probably many reasons for why rape would happen, to label every male that does this as having no/low “self-control” would be incorrect. In the case where both parties are intoxicated, and b/c the male is not in his right mind it might not register what is really going on. Thats not a self control in regards to sex, but possibly substance abuse.

@RedPowerLady It can’t be voluntary sex when drunk so therefore it is date rape. Now it could be date rape on both accounts if they are both drunk but still it is not voluntary.

It IS voluntary even when inebriated. It is only involuntary when the person is inebriated to the state of incapacity. Being drunk enough to lose inhibition does not gives grounds for a rape charge. Being too drunk to resist or protest does.

fuck you people…

where’s my beer…

I have heard many men use the excuse, “I’m a man.” This was used to avoid conversation, doing the dishes, or to excuse getting drunk and acting like an ass, and the list goes on.

So if men are categorized in such a fashion, it is in a large part their own doing, after all they pretty much built the society in which we live. Some men do fit the stereotype, some don’t.

Regarding the rape, if a woman is locked in her house and a man breaks in and rapes her, that is definitely not at all her fault. If she gets completely drunk and can’t remember if she consented or not, she is at least partially culpable. She should know this is not a nice world and to put yourself at such a disadvantage is stupid. If her drink was poisoned, that is again a different story or if at any point she says no, again different. There is just no one size fits all sort of resolution. But women do have to take some responsibility for themselves and the decisions they make.

Does anyone outside the Lifetime audiences believe that crap?

The police also have the view that if you leave your keys in the car it’s your fault if it gets stolen, almost as if you are the perpetrator.

@DarkScribe Well I suppose we’ll have to let the law decide that. Because most date-rape cases occur when the woman (at least) is intoxicated meaning she cannot give legal consent. Also I never saw any resources that said a woman must be (this) intoxicated for it to be rape. If you have one I will agree that bit is true but until then I have no reason to believe as much.

@rooeytoo But women do have to take some responsibility for themselves and the decisions they make.

I beg to differ on some level. Women should be able to get as drunk as they want without worrying someone will take advantage of her. Any other mindset is setting women up for date-rape.

@RedPowerLady but they should watch what they wear. Sometimes it screams for attention of that sorts. If you dont want sexual attention dont dress like it

@asawilliams I must assume you are being funny. You aren’t seriously suggesting that a woman deserves unwanted sexual attention because of the clothes she chooses to wear?

@RedPowerLady In a way yes. If you dress like a slut, you will most likely be treated like one. Just like you would wear something more professional in the office if you want to be taken more seriously. Dressing provocatively is like putting up a sign that says “I am looking for sex”

@asawilliams it doesn’t matter how a person dresses or what you think they look like – sluts whatever way you define them do not deserve to be raped or harassed any more than professional looking women…

Another reason why feminism is still needed. Women have to watch what they wear, and what they drink, and where they go, and who they go with or get blamed when men take advantage. Rape and violence is one way the patriarchy maintains its control over women. Women are subject to the whims of a man if she does not obey certain demands.

@asawilliams Regardless of how you dress no one is asking for sex unless the ask for it. No one deserves to be raped, especially because of their clothing choice.

I’m not sure that any where in my responses did I say anything about women deserving to be raped? What I was saying is how you dress, male or female, is how people will look at you. If you dress like a clown people will want you to do something funny.

@RedPowerLady @DarkScribe Well I suppose we’ll have to let the law decide that. Because most date-rape cases occur when the woman (at least) is intoxicated meaning she cannot give legal consent.

No, most cases are reported the next day, after she has decided that she must have been drugged. Few are actually reported at the time they occurred. This is what the report was about – the fact that most blood tests show nothing but alcohol.

Being intoxicated does not make her incapable of consent unless she is intoxicated to the point of incapacity. The law is clear on that. She has to be unable to either understand what is happening or be incapable of resisting. That is the level of intoxication required – one where she cannot prevent being taken advantage of, not one where she is drunk enough to lose inhibition and encourage sexual a liaison.

Intoxication means affected by alcohol, it has no legal definition or standard. They set a level for driving a car, for various employment requirement, but not for social drinking.

@DarkScribe I suppose I am saying that most women who are date-raped are intoxicated to the point that they are unable to either understand what is happening or are incapable of resisting.

Perhaps I don’t understand the difference between that and this: drunk enough to lose inhibition and encourage sexual a liaison. If you are drunk enough to lose your inhibition does that not mean you are unable to understand the consequences of your actions? Alternatively are you suggesting that it is appropriate for a man to take advantage of a woman in this situation?

I also fail to see the line between so drunk you lose inhibition but still drunk enough to give consent. The law is clear: If a person has had too much to drink or is on drugs they can not consent to sex and having sex with them is legally rape.
I simply do not see the line you are drawing.

@RedPowerLady Perhaps I don’t understand the difference between that and this: drunk enough to lose inhibition and encourage sexual a liaison

There is a very big difference – often a matter of many drinks and several hours. Girls can become very uninhibited quite quickly when drinking, they talk louder, laugh more easily, get more flirtatious than normal etc. They do this as a rule much quicker than men – it is a thing that I have noticed for many years. Probably because of the smaller body size and often slower metabolism. A woman who is tipsy and flirtatious can most certainly encourage a sexual liaison – it has happened to me many times. This very different to a woman who has become so drunk that she has trouble walking, cannot speak without slurring words and is disoriented. A woman in that state if taken advantage of by a man would most certainly be considered to have been raped.

If every woman who had a few drinks and picked a guy up was considered to have been incapable of consent and regarded as raped, rape would be the most common form of sex – even in marriage unless she is teetotal. The concept is rather silly.

I have never, not once in my life, asked a woman for sex. She either offered or I went home alone. I very seldom went home alone, and invariably the women had consumed some level of alcohol. I wasn’t in the habit of frequenting venues that were dry.

@asawilliams: Where did I say that I think men are actually like that? The point of my question is that men are not like that as a rule and I want to know why this idea is held. many people seem to think that there isn’t this idea, but it is there. Like I said before, women are taught to be suspect of men and all situations that have men. It’s people like you who perpetuate this idea. It’s the idea that if a woman dresses in a revealing manner she’s asking for sex. Once again, this is assuming that any man who sees her will want to have sex with her and she has to be careful because he can’t control himself.

If every woman who had a few drinks and picked a guy up was considered to have been incapable of consent and regarded as raped, rape would be the most common form of sex – even in marriage unless she is teetotal.

Most of the time it is the guy picking up the woman and that is particularly what I am talking about. However even if a woman initiates it does not mean that sex is appropriate. Lets think about clear-cut rape. Sometimes a woman initiates and then halfway through decides she is done. If the man continues this is still rape. It does get a bit “tricky” with date-rape scenarios but my point is that a woman can initiate and rape can still occur. Also it is quite clear that a woman does not have to be falling-over drunk in order to be considered unable to give consent. In fact one of the big ‘issues’ that is discussed in regards to this is one you brought up yourself. What about when this happens in marriage? In fact it still could be legally considered as rape. It really depends on the circumstances. All men should know that if a woman is inebriated (at any point of drunkness not just falling over drunk) they are putting themselves at risk by having sex with her. Now I am not saying this is always a case of date rape. But it does have the potential to be so.

@RedPowerLady Sometimes a woman initiates and then halfway through decides she is done. If the man continues this is still rape. It does get a bit “tricky” with date-rape scenarios but my point is that a woman can initiate and rape can still occur.

Sure, if a woman changes her mind – that is it. I don’t of any guys who would not accept that. Not that I have ever heard of it happening that often and usually it is something a little more mundane – like feeling ill or getting worried about pregnancy rather than a change of heart.

None of this has anything to do with the assertion that all woman who are in any way inebriated are unable to give consent – or initiate sex.

I am beginning to feel that you can’t envisage any sexual contact between a man and a woman that isn’t potentially rape.

I agree with DarkScribe and asawilliams on this. A woman should take some responsibility for her actions, just like a man has to take responsibility for getting a woman pregnant.

None of this has anything to do with the assertion that all woman who are in any way inebriated are unable to give consent – or initiate sex.

All I am stating is that a woman who is intoxicated cannot give legal consent. Period. Again I quote “If a person has had too much to drink or is on drugs they can not consent to sex and having sex with them is legally rape.”

I am beginning to feel that you can’t envisage any sexual contact between a man and a woman that isn’t potentially rape.

Only if men and women only have sex when they are drunk (and then the woman later realizes she was taken advantage of).

@RedPowerLady If women can’t take responsibility while their drunk, what should you say about men? That they have to maintain control over being drunk even though the women doesn’t?

@Samurai It works both ways actually, legally. However when you look at the stats it is typically men who take advantage of women.

@RedPowerLady Yes, men generally take advantage of women more often then the women are to take advantage of the men. That’s not what I was saying. Here’s a scenario: A women goes to the bar with her friends and dresses “nice” and manages to get drunk by drinking a few drinks. She notices a man by her who is also drinking and decides to flirt with him intentionally or not. The man thinks that she is trying to get a one night stand, even though both probably don’t understand that they’re bottom drunk. Some time later that night the woman might says “No! Stop!”. The guy may think she is just acting or that she is actually serious. How do you expect the man and the woman to grasp control over right and wrong even though they both are drunk?

@Samurai If at any point a woman says “no’ it is a clear cut issue. In that circumstance the man is clearly at fault because she said “no”.

@RedPowerLady All I am stating is that a woman who is intoxicated cannot give legal consent. Period. Again I quote “If a person has had too much to drink or is on drugs they can not consent to sex and having sex with them is legally rape.”

This is the problem – intoxicated has no meaning other than affected by alcohol. It doe not mean too drunk to make a decision. People drive cars while intoxicated (They shouldn’t but they do) so clearly you can make valid decisions when intoxicated.

A person, man or woman, CAN give consent unless intoxicated to the point of incapacity.

You are seeing black and white, and the world is grey. Only a small percentage of people ever get so drunk that they would be legally incapable of consent to anything. The majority who drink will measure on a Breathalyser, but are perfectly capable of going about their lives, driving, cooking, working – and giving consent. Not every woman who drinks get too drunk to look after herself or make decisions. You seem to feel that they do – in fact your opinion of women is more demeaning than many men’s. They are not all drunks who cannot make decisions for themselves.

There is little point in continuing this, you seem determined that all women who socialise and have sex are being raped. It does happen, but it is not common. Millions of women go out every week and drink and party and most of them have a good time with nothing untoward. Some later regret what they have done with a guy and claim to have been date raped by being drugged. In most cases this is found to be untrue once they have a blood test. There are very few genuine rapes in relation to the huge numbers of women who have sex while perhaps slightly inebriated.

@RedPowerLady If both are intoxicated beyond logical reasoning, how do you honestly think that men should take all the responsibility for both their actions?

@DarkScribe

This is the problem – intoxicated has no meaning other than affected by alcohol.
Well you are arguing with the law now and not me.

I also agree this is getting nowhere. I have not once spoke to the ability or disability of women to make their own choices. The point is what the law states about date-rape. You can argue endlessly about whether you agree with the law or not. Regardless it is important to know it. Again I am not stating my opinion on the matter. Just what is stated as the law. I can re-paste the quote: “If a person has had too much to drink or is on drugs they can not consent to sex and having sex with them is legally rape.”

@Samurai Again I never said that now have I?

@RedPowerLady “If at any point a woman says “no’ it is a clear cut issue. In that circumstance the man is clearly at fault because she said “no”.”

Isn’t that where you said that?

@Samurai In that case it does not matter that they are both intoxicated. The law is clear. If a woman (or man) say “no” at ANY point then it is considered rape. Period. How is that confusing? The man takes responsibility for this because the woman said “no”. It is not her actions that are at fault, it is his.

@RedPowerLady I guess I see your point there, but don’t think the consequences should be nearly as high as they would be if one was not intoxicated.

@RedPowerLady “If a person has had too much to drink or is on drugs they can not consent to sex and having sex with them is legally rape.”

That does not mean intoxicated, inebriated, tipsy, drunk, it means too much alcohol or drugs to allow them to make a decision. Too much is the key here – it what you are not grasping. Too much means what I posted some time ago, incapable of functioning. If they can walk, talk, dance, drive a car it is not too much. If they can’t walk, don’t know where they are, can’t speak coherently, then it is too much.

You can be legally drunk and still not have had too much to legally make a decision. Do you think that when you are arrested for a crime, that if you can talk and respond, the Police won’t read you your rights? They cannot do that if you have had too much drink or drugs to legally make a decision to waive them or not.

Try to get a handle on it – alcohol does not prevent informed consent – TOO MUCH alcohol does. Nobody is talking about situations where too much alcohol has been consumed. The discussion is about social levels, normal Friday Saturday night socialising. There are infinite levels of inebriation, and it only in the very high levels that you lose the ability to understand and make decisions.

@RedPowerLady Yeah, my point failed, I apologize about that.

@Samurai Okay we will just agree to disagree when it comes to having the same amount of responsibility while drunk (after a woman says ‘no’).

@DarkScribe Here this woman puts it much better than I ever could. Please don’t think that at any time I meant that every woman who puts a drink in her mouth is unable to give consent. However I do disagree on what level of intoxication one would draw the line of consent.

“I don’t think that’s what they do. I think the analysis comes from a different perspective, and that seeing things in that way makes this “zero-tolerance” stance much clearer and more reasonable.

The issue is not what rules would be safest in keeping women from being assaulted – that is, a case of simply declaring all sex after drinking as non-consensual by definition in order to keep women from being taken advantage of. The issue instead is the application of a general understanding of what real consent is – an understanding that already has legal application in other areas – to the issue of consent for sex.

In healthcare and law, “informed consent” means the authentic approval of a given choice made with full information, and free of distortion by coercion, undue inticement, helplessness, or intoxication. A consent for a medical procedure given while under the influence of drugs or anaesthesia is not valid; a criminal confession made while intoxicated is also not valid. The idea is that a decision made while intoxicated may not represent your true preferences, or may easily be influenced by external pressures. We cannot be sure such consent is freely given, so we simply may not accept such consents even when they are given. A doctor may not operate on a patient who gives consent while intoxicated or medicated (there are alternative procedures for emergency situations), and courts may not accept confessions signed while drunk or on drugs.

Under this doctrine, it is simply impossible to give a valid consent to any act that requires consent, while you are intoxicated – even if it is something you would have consented to while sober. Whether or not you would have consented otherwise, an intoxicated consent is not freely chosen. The blanket prohibition on unfree consent protects the intoxicated party from abuse – justified because “she said it was OK” – committed while they can’t make a decision to protect themselves. It also prohibits acts that might have been acceptable to the intoxicated party, because we cannot know, while they are intoxicated, what their sober preferences would be; that’s the price of demaning authentic consent in each and every case.

It’s obvious this doctrine applies directly to the question of consent for sex, as much as to consent for medical treatment or legal decisionmaking. It has always seemed to me that taking informed consent for sex seriously requires precisely such a policy, and I think it’s a good idea in this case. It’s not a question of setting policy too-stringently simply to play it safe; it’s a question of what actual “consent” really means.”

It doesn’t. Our society expects normal, agreeable men.