General Question

Blackberry's avatar

Bigotry and discrimination wouldn't be tolerated in society nowaydays, so why is it OK as long as it's against gays?

Asked by Blackberry (29405 points ) December 15th, 2009

I’m just having trouble understanding how people in powerful positions can get away with such blatant disrespect. Are adults really that brainwashed by their beliefs? How did that happen to them?

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132 Answers

stratman37's avatar

And Christians!

dpworkin's avatar

It’s not OK. Certain people see their world changing rapidly around them, and instead of embracing it they are frightened.It always happens in times of change, but the change always comes regardless. They are like King Cantue, defying the tide.

The same phenomenon explains the blind hatred for Obama on the part of some Southern Whites.

Medlang's avatar

no one likes us =’(

ClubJenna's avatar

I don’t think it’s okay at all. My high school actually just added this new club called the Gay Straight Alliance, and a lot of people are against it.

I went there, and noticed a lot of the people I hang out with go too. They are all very nice, and get discriminated for no reason other than that they are Homosexual. I’m glad they have a club where they can talk about their problems and not be judged in the process.

strange1's avatar

where did you get that idea?

ChocolateReigns's avatar

I, for one, think that marriage is between one woman and one man. But I know alot of people disagree with me, and I’m not going to try to make people agree with me. I try not to “discriminate” against gays, but if something is against my beliefs, then I’m not going to say I believe it or do anything that could get interpreted as believing it. That’s just the way it is.

Spirit_of_the_Nomad's avatar

I don’t agree with you I think that bigotry and discrimination are over tolerated presently. The discrimination might not be as overt as it once was; except, as you point out, discrimination against homosexuals but it is still widely practiced and is a simply a social norm in much of the united states and until the underlying prejudices are addressed the unconscious bigotry will carry on.

JLeslie's avatar

It is not ok. It is a disgrace and embarrasing.

Buttonstc's avatar

Well, the Communists are no longer available as the scapegoat of choice, so the right wing decided gays were the new choice. Ignorant people seem to need scapegoats.

halfg's avatar

I will try to actually answer your question here:

Because we live in a society that is still very heteronormative and patriarchal. Gay people are still not tolerated because they are not the norm, and also because we live in a society where women are still not yet equal to their male counterparts because masculinity=power.

As long as we live in a society where men insult each other with attempts of emasculation (calling people a “girl” or a “pussy” or “fag”), there will be an existing hatred for gay people. Because what could be worse than a man acting like a girl? That’s how they see it.

baileysmom12's avatar

@Medlang Don’t say no one likes you. I am straight but I don’t judge anyone for their life styles. I have nothing against gays or anyone else that that is different than me. I think we are all unique individuals and are all worthy of respect. I don’t care if you are black, white, brown or any color in between, I don’t care if you are christian, non-christian, gay, straight, rich, poor, or what ever. If your heart is good, that’s all that matters.

Response moderated
puckbunny's avatar

For one I do not believe that it is right to discriminate against one race or sexual orientaion over another. We are all supposed to be “created equal.” However, even in todays society we can see that this is not the case. People are still telling others what to think, believe, say, and even how to act. Sometimes, yes, it could be that adults are brainwashed. That would come from their upbringing. Parents of children have a lot of control over how their children are raised and what kind of person they grow up to be. I do believe that there should be same sex marriages. I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this.

However, if we are all created equal and are supposed to have equal rights under the constitution then why can’t there be same sex marriage? This is not looking at the Bible. Just strickly at the constitution. If people still want marriage to be this sacred bond between a man and a women then why not allow civil unions to have the same rights that a married couple has? Now if we look at the Bible do you or anyone else think that God would discrimiate against a gay person? After all are they not one of Gods children? Society has changed over the years. It is time that we open our eyes to some of these things.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Bigotry and discrimination are totally tolerated in our society – against minorities, against non-heterosexuals, against religions we don’t like, against fat people, against transgender people…do you need me to go on?

JLeslie's avatar

@ChocolateReigns You are confusing civil marriage with religious marriage.

gradyjones's avatar

I don’t think it’s limited to gay people but bigotry and discrimination are wrong no matter who it’s directed at. We don’t have to agree with everyone but we can still be civil and respectful of other peoples rights.

aprilsimnel's avatar

People like putting other people in little boxes because that’s a lot easier than to individually deal with each person and not stereotype. It’s lazy thinking, which leads to lazy, bigoted behavior, and not just toward gay people.

Unfortunately, many people do not understand that sexual orientation is just that, an orientation and not a choice. Why anyone would choose to be ostracized, discriminated against and/or subjected to personal violence by homophobes is beyond my comprehension.

After seeing enough young people in the fundy church I grew up in living with the anguish of being someone that our pastor told us was a hell-bound sinner, I mean… it’s just ridiculous. I’m just grateful that none of them committed suicide. People need to grow up. Everyone isn’t like them and that’s how it’s supposed to be.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

Cos people are stupid. Plain and simple.

tinyfaery's avatar

I agree with Simone. Discrimination and bigotry is readily tolerated. Overt racism and discrimination happens everyday.

halfg's avatar

@aprilsimnel Want to echo what you said. Our heteronormative society is quick to categorize everyone – it makes things simple for them But when the mainstream can’t categorize someone (for instance, someone of a sexual orientation that deviates from what they are used to), that person ends up being marginalized.

_Jade_'s avatar

Bigotry and discrimination ARE tolerated…depending on WHO is being targeted, of course. Bigotry and discrimination takes many forms and anyone can be a victim. It is not okay, but that does not alter the fact that it still exists and is tolerated and even promoted by some.

Rude_Bear's avatar

@stratman37 : I don’t think Christians are discriminated against. I think they whine when they don’t get their way. It’s called the victim card, and they play it a great deal.

Facade's avatar

@Rude_Bear Stay around here long enough and you’ll see some discrimination against Christians.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Facade you must admit some of this ‘discrimination’ is well-deserved. same goes for other religions.

Facade's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir As I have just woken up, I don’t want to get into this. I was just giving @Rude_Bear some info.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@ most of the people here….
I don’t care who it is. Christian or otherwise I will never understand the mentality that “gays will never be satisfied” All it takes to satisfy them is equal rights!!!!! How the fuck hard is that???? That is like being in the 1950’s and saying blacks will never be satisfied. Or in the 1960’s and saying women will never be satisfied.

Qingu's avatar

Discriminating against an ideology—a religious or political affiliation, a system of beliefs and choices—is very different from discriminating against a race, skin color, or sexual orientation.

And yeah, @stratman37, I’m curious as to how you think Christians are discriminated against. Last I checked you have the same rights as anyone. Oh, I guess people at Walmart say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas—what’s next, being thrown to the lions?

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@Qingu How is it different??? Discrimination is discrimination. Doesn’t matter what it’s over.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Facade sorry, I wasn’t getting ‘into’ anything – I was just saying that it’s not like people just hate on Christians for no reason around here – sometimes well deserved criticism gets renamed ‘discrimination’, that’s all…you know I’m not into generalizations and it’s not about all Christians, to me, or even the people themselves, but you gotta admit religion makes people think wrong things…or at the very least they excuse it with religion when that religion didn’t even call for it…

Sarcasm's avatar

It’s ok cause the bible says it’s okay, dumdums.

Jude 7 “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”
Lev 18:22–23 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”
1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals”
1 Tim 1:9–10 “realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers”
Rom 1:26–27 “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”

Our god is ever-loving.

Blackberry's avatar

@Sarcasm Ummm, I’m not sure if you’re joking or not lol. If you are joking, then that is funny, and if you are serious, then I’m just going to be nice and say have a nice day.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@Sarcasm You can’t prove God wrote that. Whenever I paint with the windows shut God talks to me too.

Sarcasm's avatar

Do you not think our god is love? It says so in the bible, and the bible is infallible.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Please read http://www.seekgod.org/bible/godslove.html and see all the love that our great God has.

JLeslie's avatar

Disagreement with Christians is not discrimination. No one is trying to stop them from praying to God, or stop them from sending their children to Christian school, or taking away their civil rights. If someone says to me they don’t agree with my beliefs I do not feel discriminated against, we just don’t agree.

puckbunny's avatar

@Sarcasm If God is love.. Then why is there such a problem with accepting gays? Do they not love? Wouldn’t God love them just as much as a straight person? After all they too are God’s children. They were born as God’s children and will die as God’s children. I do not think that sexual orientaion will determine whether God loves them or not. It is basically people saying that God does not love you because you are not normal as most people put it.

Sarcasm's avatar

Puckberry, what they do is an abomination. If they were to stop acting in sin, God would love them.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Sarcasm do you have time today or something, lol? you know all of those passages have been argued against – half of that stuff was written ages later and it’s using modernized words, etc. wait, unless you seriously believe all that stuff? for some reason I thought you didn’t

Sarcasm's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m bored as fuck waiting to go to one of my finals. Oh, shoot, I mean, I AM A CHRISTIAN AND THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE YOU ARE TRYING TO SILENCE ME AND MY GOD
If you people would take 20 seconds and glance at my profile you’d see the word “atheist”.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Sarcasm well yeah I mean I know that…but maybe you were lying in your profile and not on here

Buttonstc's avatar

@Simone

I don’t think it’s an accident that his SN is Sarcasm. It gives him the perfect opportunity to play around.

:)

puckbunny's avatar

@ Sarcasm I am a Chirstian as well. However, I do not believe sexual orientation is a choice that one makes. If it was that easy then why wouldn’t I like girls as much as I do men when I see one that gets my attention? What about the people who are born with both male and female sex organs. It is the parents who have to decide what sex they will grow up as. So what happens when they choose the wrong sex?

Sarcasm's avatar

@puckbunny Their orientation may not be a choice, but it is a choice to live as such.
I dislike lettuce, but I still eat it.

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

@stratman37 “at christians ??? ..are you kidding me ? take a look at some of your own bible qoutes here

puckbunny's avatar

LMAO!!! It may be a choice to live as such. Do you think that someone can live with being something that they are not? Lets flip this for a moment and say that everyone was gay. You however choose to be straight. Do you think that it would be easy for you to become gay or do the things that gay people do simply because that is what society believes to be the correct way of life?

JLeslie's avatar

@puckbunny I am not arguing with your statement, but want to make the point that I think it should not make one bit of difference if it is a choice or congenital. We should respect the choice also. I feel like people who insist on making the point that they were born gay are trying to fight against the bigots out there. I think why give the bigots anything. Why can’t we just respect an adults right to love whomever they choose.

Sarcasm's avatar

@puckbunny Being homosexual is unnatural, so I find it hard to believe that everyone would be gay. Even as such, I would not act as a homosexual because I know in my heart and in my bible, acting upon homosexual desires is an abomination and disappoints God.
This is not about societal values, this is about The Ultimate Truth.

I would love to continue this but I must leave to take a final for one of my Religion classes.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@The_Anonymous_Witch I added that page to my favorites on my computer. That link is exactly why I believe people shouldn’t be citing the bible for shit.
@puckbunny I don’t know if people choose to be gay or if they are born that way and I don’t think it should matter. Either way they are who they are.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Sarcasm dude, there must be other ways to spend the time

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown they like to “spread the word ” so they should be happy we are helping ;-)

puckbunny's avatar

@JLeslie I agree with you. We should have respect for others no matter who they are. At the least we need to have respect for them until they have done something that is not worth our respect anymore. But that falls under a different situation.

@King_of_Sexytown I too am not even 50% sure whether someone is born gay or chooses to be gay. That debate will be going on for many years to come.

@Sarcasm You missed my point… You can’t even take the time to think on the oposite side of the line for one minute. Drop your beliefs for one moment and look at the senerio. It is a hypothetical question. And that fact that you can not even take the time to think on the other side of the line or your belief proves that your mind is made up and that is it. It doesn’t matter what kind of proof anyone could give you, you still will only believe what you have been taught and realize for you is real.

Rude_Bear's avatar

Thank God we don’t live in a theocracy.

JLeslie's avatar

@Rude_Bear Amen to that.

Qingu's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown, discriminating against individuals based on their choices and views is very different from basing it on pointless and meaningless factors like their skin color.

If I don’t want to hire someone in my scientific organization who believes the moon is made out of green cheese and NASA is a giant conspiracy to cover it up, I guess you can call that “discrimination.” But it seems to me that it’s much more justified than not wanting to hire a black person, or a dude who likes sleeping with dudes.

Beliefs and ideologies—unlike sex, race, and orientation—actually matter. That’s why it’s different.

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

if christians are against gays…why are there so many altar boys with sore asses ? :-o

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

oh yes i did ;-)

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@The_Anonymous_Witch OMG LAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am laughing so hard right now

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@Qingu I missed your comment before. And that’s a good point.

Factotum's avatar

pdworkin rightly observes that there are those who are not ready to change – gays have been discriminated against throughout history. It is my contention that you can’t just one day say, ‘hey society, knock off all that disliking of __________ this instant!’ and expect it will happen. Gay people WILL be allowed to marry just like everyone else in the fullness of time. As for now they can marry almost just like everyone else. From the perspective of gays that isn’t enough and I respect that view. From the perspective of history gays have come an incredibly long way in an incredibly short time.

Certainly trying to win the hearts and minds of those who oppose absolute equality for gays is worthwhile as is trying to shame those who don’t accept such a premise.

But things like this take a generation or two to change (leaving the Phelps family church out of the equation). One can fight hard today or accept an easy victory tomorrow.

halfg's avatar

@factotum – “As for now they can marry almost just like everyone else”

This is completely false. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/nyregion/17samesex.html

There are a lot of rights and tax benefits that come with being married, not being in a civil union or “domestic partnership.”

“Certainly trying to win the hearts and minds of those who oppose absolute equality for gays is worthwhile as is trying to shame those who don’t accept such a premise.”

Sorry, I’m sure you’re a great person and all but frankly I’m sick of this attitude. Every time a congressperson votes against ANY sort of gay marriage bill, I am of the belief that they should be shamed the FUCK out of. They need to stop hiding behind weak bullshit excuses like “religion” or “it’s just my belief that marriage is sacred, etc” and just come out and say it: That they simply do not believe that all people are equal, and that they view some humans as less worthy of other humans. That’s all it comes down to, plain and simple.

This is not to be tolerated, and not something that needs to be “waited out”.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@halfg I second that motion!!!! Hating someone for being gay is the exact same thing as racism to me.

Qingu's avatar

@halfg, judging from the rest of @Factotum‘s post, I think that line may have been a misstatement.

JLeslie's avatar

My sister and I go back and forth about whether all people against gay marriage are homophobic or bigots. I don’t think they all are, and my sister thinks they are. I staunchly support gay marriage, and don’t see how anyone can say gay people can almost marry like anyone else? At least not in the USA. I think some people just really think the term marriage is for a man and woman. I worked with a woman, her son was gay, she was always accepting of his partner, and she is against gay marriage. I think she is an idiot, but I do not think she hates gay people.

I think some of the problem in the US is we mush civil and religious marriage together, allowing priests to have the power by the state to do a civil wedding also. If the two thigs were completely separate…my sister-in-law was married in Mexico, she had the relgiious ceremony, then did the civil, then had the party, maybe people would not be so confused. The civil marriage is a contract that give you certain rights and protections under the law during the marriage and if the marriage dissolves. It is probably the only legally binding contract that you don’t get to read the documents before you sign. Any two adults should be able to go into a legal contract together.

Facade's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir “or at the very least they excuse it with religion when that religion didn’t even call for it…”
There ya go. They bring God into their own ideals, making the rest of us look bad.

JLeslie's avatar

@Facade Yes, it does makes Christian’s look bad. Good Christian’s should speak out more against that crap; prove the stereotypes wrong.

HumourMe's avatar

I, for one, blame organised religion. Just look what the Qur’an and Bible say about homosexuals. People use their faith as an excuse/defence/justification for their discrimination against gays.

Sarcasm's avatar

@puckbunny And that fact that you can not even take the time to think on the other side of the line or your belief proves that your mind is made up and that is it.
Not I who has made up his mind. It is God who has made up His mind.

You wouldn’t try to justify murder by saying, “Think about if murder was legal…”. You realize that murder is illegal for a reason. It is a law set by governments. Until those governments (or, regarding homosexual activities, God) change their mind, that’s how it is.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Better ways to spend time? Yeah right.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@Sarcasm Did you not read Anonymous Witch’s link?? The bible justifies murder all the time. That is why we have separation of church and state. What is one way in the bible is usually different under the government.

Qingu's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown, it doesn’t count as murder if Yahweh says you should do it.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Sarcasm yeah like tattooing yourself with a sharpie

PretentiousArtist's avatar

You guysss, Sarcasm is being totally serial!

Sarcasm's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That’s so…9th grade. What the cool college kids, like myself, prefer to do is to pretend to be a Christian. It was going so well till I mentioned murder. Ugh.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Sarcasm well if you’re gonna mention murder, then you should totally pretend to be a Muslim and have people think that’s all you like to do

Buttonstc's avatar

@PretentiousArtist

Uhhh yeah, that’s why his name is Sarcasm.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

woo hoo
DC legalized gay marriage

Blackberry's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir oh nice, yes I read it wouldn’t have much opposition there.

JLeslie's avatar

I think if it was put to a popular vote it would have good chance of not passing in DC. I hope I am wrong.

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

for those that missed it , the bible tells you to kill….. i bet you are on the hit list
bible says kill everyone

puckbunny's avatar

@Sarcasm. Sometimes murder is justified. There were many cases of murder in the Bible where it was okay to do so. Realizing that murder is illegal is totally different than thinking gays should be allowed to marry and have the same rights as a man and woman. The law is indeed set by the government. Just like certain murders or murderers I should say walk away from punishment because their case proves that it was justified in some way same sex marriage should be considered. Even if it is on a case by case thing.

Factotum's avatar

@halfq I stand by my statement ‘almost just like everyone else’. No, they don’t get the whole package, yes, they do get most of it. Aside from civil unions and domestic partnerships there are other agreements that can be made legal through the use of a lawyer. Inconvenient and unfair? Yes. But gay marriage comes quite close to heterosexual marriage.

I read the article you linked to but was largely unmoved. What the people were complaining of were inconveniences and frustrations.

As for tax benefits, that is only really the case with regard to federal benefits, though I don’t doubt there are state examples to be had.

Full marriage for gays is coming. I understand it won’t be soon enough for you.

Factotum's avatar

@JLeslie I agree that not everyone who opposes gay marriage is homophobic (or gays in denial as some people insist) or bigoted.

The issue is improperly framed by words like ‘hate’ which is a very strong emotion. ‘Discomfort’ would be a better term for what a lot of those who oppose gay marriage feel.

Most Christians are pretty blasé about gay marriage as long as their priests don’t have to officiate – they known the difference between church marriage and non-church marriage.

downtide's avatar

I don’t think it’s ok. Unfortunately, 90% of the population don’t agree with me.

ChocolateReigns's avatar

@halfg Well, I think that I would vote against gay marriage if I had the chance. That’s because I believe that marriage is between one woman and one man (yes I know I already said that). I think that’s just the way it should be. I don’t care if you call it discriminating. That’s just the way I think it should be.

halfg's avatar

@ChocolateReigns Well as long as you’re not a coward about and can own up to your bigotry, then go for it.
And also, as opposed to @JLeslie, I do think that it is an issue of hatred. Not outright “I think you people should die” hatred, but if you think that gay people are such lesser human beings that they don’t even deserve to have the same rights as anyone else… well then you’re doing a pretty bad job of convincing people that you’re anything but a bigoted fucking hater.

JLeslie's avatar

@ChocolateReigns Ok, you have a right to your opinion, but why does what you think get to be the law of the land? What if other people feel differently? If it hurt society in some way you might have an argument, but you are just fighting about what you consider to be the “definition” of the word marriage.

Qingu's avatar

@ChocolateReigns, do you have any reason to support your opinion?

I could just as easily say “I believe that ChocolateReigns should be castrated. I can’t explain why exactly, that’s just the way I think it should be.”

Sarcasm's avatar

@ChocolateReigns why do you believe that marriage should be one man and one woman?

JLeslie's avatar

For @all this article http://www.justnews.com/news/21972319/detail.html?treets=mia&tml=mia_natlbreak&ts=T&tmi=mia_natlbreak_1_01490112152009 at the bottom talks about how DC is fighting to not let gay marriage be placed on a voting ballot, sighting discrimination. It will be interesting to see what the courts say on that? If it gets to a popular vote in DC I think it would be overturned. Below is the copy from the article regarding this:

The group Mitchell represents made a similar request this summer, when the city passed a law recognizing gay marriages legally performed in other states. The board declined to put the issue on the ballot, citing a city human rights law that bars discrimination.

Jackson said Tuesday he believes this time the group has an “airtight legal case.”

“If it gets to the vote, we win,” he said, referencing the other states where residents overturned same-sex marriage laws.

The group also has another avenue of attack. It has lawsuit pending from earlier this year, when it tried to get an initiative on the ballot in D.C. asking voters to define marriage as between a man and a woman. There, too, the elections board cited the human rights law in keeping it off the ballot. A hearing in that case is scheduled for January.

ChocolateReigns's avatar

Because that’s the way God designed it (please don’t give me a hard time about my being a Christian). I don’t think it should be the law just because I think it should be that way, I just think that’s how I would vote if I had the chance. If enough people agreed with me, then it would be the law.

Qingu's avatar

@ChocolateReigns, God also says we can own slaves. (Leviticus 25:45, Deuteronomy 20:10, 1 Timothy 6:1). He says we can legally beat these slaves as much as the Romans beat Jesus before they crucified him (Exodus 21:20).

So would you vote for a law legalizing slavery?

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@ChocolateReigns You said “Because that’s the way God designed it”
I am a believer as well. Don’t take this as an attack cos I only want to debate with you and nothing else, but how do you know that is how He designed it?? And don’t even give me the bible. Not only do most versions of it promote murder but you can’t even prove to me that your bible is the right one. There are over 130 versions of the bible in print right now. The bible has become nothing more than a tool used by priests to get people to see things the priest’s way. It has been edited and rewritten to the point where it is not God’s word anymore. So if you have anything else I would be more than interested to hear it.

Qingu's avatar

@King_of_Sexytownthe Bible doesn’t vary that much from version to version. And I doubt the “original” version of Biblical manuscripts are any better. The earliest Biblical stories are just Mesopotamian mythology, with Yahweh a typical Babylonian sky god fighting sea monsters.

ChocolateReigns's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown There is only one Bible. There are alot of different translations. They all mean the same thing.

Qingu's avatar

Oh, there’s more than one Bible. Don’t forget about the apocrypha, the different versions of what counts as “canon.” And there are slight differences between the earliest manuscripts we have.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

So the Qu’ran and the book of Mormon are the pretty much the same then???

Qingu's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown I’m not sure what they have to do with Biblical manuscripts/canon…? Besides, this is getting off topic.

Response moderated
Qingu's avatar

I don’t see how @ChocolateReigns is not an “actual” Christian. Compared to “Christians” who ignore the majority of the Bible’s moral principles in favor of secular, liberal values? And personal attacks aren’t really advancing the discussion.

That said, I’m eager awaiting his answer regarding whether he’d support legalizing slavery because God said it should be legal.

Dog's avatar

[Mod Says:] Please stick to the topic which is “Bigotry and discrimination wouldn’t be tolerated in society nowaydays, so why is it OK as long as it’s against gays?”

Personal and off-topic remarks will be removed.

JLeslie's avatar

@ChocolateReigns You said, “If enough people agreed with me, then it would be the law.” The problem is the majority is sometimes wrong. Blacks would not have received the equality they did if some high up people did not enact laws, rather than going by a popular vote. I would guess Alabama and Mississippi would have been years behind many other states if they were not forced by law, and sometimes military, to treat all human beings as equals. I am not trying to change your mind, and you have the right to vote as you want, I guess in a generation the younger vote will help put it over the top for gay marriage; but hopefully, before having to wait for that, people in power will rise above and seek equality for all.

Look at it this way, what if the perception of a lot of people thought your church was teaching hate and intolerance, and there was a movement to not allow your beliefs to be taught or churches to exist, do you think just because there is some popular movement that your church should be done away with? Or, do you think our ideals of the right to pursue happiness, self determination, and equal rights should be upheld on your behalf? The law is to protect all, especially the minority. I think many times the Christian majority fails to understand what it would be like to be the minority, which is dangerous, because things change over time.

People are trying to argue that your religious beliefs are wrong. I am not. I am only saying don’t make me practice your beliefs, and I won’t make you practice mine.

halfg's avatar

I see that my comments have been removed. I feel that my comments were pretty relevant toward the discussion.

Also, by the Fluther mods principle of “not answering the question”, @Chocolatereigns didn’t really answer the question either – neither did a lot of people, especially compared to my first answer. I believe that @Chocolarereigns deserving a pile-on of epic proportions IS relevant to the discussion.

As a matter of fact, let me take this opportunity to FURTHER answer your original question @blackberry: Discrimination is still tolerated because even websites like Fluther continue to perpetuate it . When people like @chocolatereigns spout bigoted garbage, it is the public shaming that gets censored and not the actual homophobic remarks. This also happens in the news (Fox), it happens in schools, it happens all over the internet.

A fluther mod sent me a message telling me not to make a personal attack against someone, yet @Chocolatereigns is allowed to make personal attacks against the homosexual community. As if telling me that gay people should not be allowed the same rights as other human beings is not personal.

I will no longer be participating in this community.

Go ahead, delete this comment. Cowards.

Sarcasm's avatar

Wait..
Fox isn’t news..
Fox is a 24/7 satirical entertainment channel, like The Onion.

right guys?

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

i dont think it’s off topic at all . the answer is not in the question .so.. the thread is going in the direction of the major causes of the issue ..and in effect finding the answer , the only thing i see off topic is the mods post. sorry @dog

Dog's avatar

@The_Anonymous_Witch The [Mod Says:] was in response to the personal attacks and the fact that the topic is not “Bigotry and discrimination wouldn’t be tolerated in society nowaydays, so why is it OK as long as it’s against Christians?” The only quips removed had a personal attack as a component.

ChocolateReigns's avatar

I’m going to bow out now. I know this is going to sound bad, but I get kind of worked up when trying to prove/show my reasoning and it really is not good for my productivity of the day… ;)

puckbunny's avatar

@ChocolateReigns I think that most of us get kind of worked up when trying to prove/show our reasonings. At least I know I do.

Qingu's avatar

@ChocolateReigns, sorry, but that’s incredibly weak. You made a single comment, and you explained your reasoning: if God says it, you’ll vote for it.

So why can’t you answer a simple question about that reasoning, re: slavery? Have you not actually thought out your position, or are you just afraid of coming out as pro-slavery?

ChocolateReigns's avatar

so much for bowing out.
Anyways, OK lemme think what I have in my head out into something that will make sense to read.
Notice how all the references (except that one from 1 Timothy – I’ll talk about that in a minute) are from the Old Testament? God’s laws were different before Jesus died because that changed things.
The 1 Timothy reference (I think it was 6:1) is talking to slaves. It’s telling slaves to respect their masters because they already were slaves and probably wouldn’t be free any time soon. It’s just telling them to do what they need to do to stay alive and not give God’s name a bad rep.

Qingu's avatar

So let me get this straight.

The OT outlaws homosexuality and Paul in the NT condemns it. Therefore, we should vote against gay marriage.

The OT explicitly allows and commands slavery and Paul repeatedly tells slaves to obey their masters. But we can ignore all that because who cares what the OT says, and Paul obviously wouldn’t be okay with slavery today.

Sorry, I still don’t understand your logic. Are you saying that it’s wrong to follow the OT laws? And let’s look at exactly what Paul says about slavery:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters* in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, (Colossians 3:22)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to answer back, 10not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Saviour. (1 Titus 2:9)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. (1 Peter 2:18)

Paul also doesn’t just give slaves instructions. He gives masters instructions in Colossians 4:1:

Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, for you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Note that he doesn’t tell them to “free your slaves because slavery is wrong.”

Please explain me how it’s anymore wrong to outlaw slavery today than it is to let gays marry.

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

I would accept what Chocolate said about the old testament as a counter argument. Tithing is also from the old testament yet EVERY church I have ever been to still insists on passing around the dish and we aren’t supposed to do the Old Testament anymore. I consider myself a believer but that is just one of many reasons why I refuse to go to church or read the bible. Both are nothing more than tools used by priests and preachers to convert people. Or justify arbitrary laws involving homosexuality. Either or.

Qingu's avatar

@ChocolateReigns, also, are you saying that when Jesus died, he abolished the OT laws?

Sarcasm's avatar

@King_of_Sexytown You believe in the god of the bible, but you refuse to read the bible? Am I reading this correctly?

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

@Qingu .here is som ammo for you
“Thou Shall Not Ignore the Old Testament!”

New Testament Verses Which Demand Following the Old Testament and Law Contradictions:
1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18–19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20–21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9–13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4–7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,...” (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.”—Jesus Christ, John 10:35

King_of_Sexytown's avatar

@Sarcasm Yep!! Deal with it.

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

oooops…. did i do that ? :-o

Qingu's avatar

And Deuteronomy 4:

See, just as the Lord my God has charged me, I now teach you statutes and ordinances for you to observe in the land that you are about to enter and occupy. You must observe them diligently, for this will show your wisdom and discernment to the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and discerning people!’ For what other great nation has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is whenever we call to him? And what other great nation has statutes and ordinances as just as this entire law that I am setting before you today?

What other great nation indeed! Surely @ChocolateReigns you’re not suggesting that America knows better than Yahweh about his wise and just laws regarding slavery?

But I don’t really care that much if you choose to ignore the Old Testament. Just be consistent about it, and stop letting it dictate your views on homosexuality.

Factotum's avatar

I don’t exactly have a dog in the slavery/Bible/gay fight but I don’t understand the comment idea of God commanding slavery. Slavery seems to be a pre-existing condition and God is saying how you’re supposed to behave as a slave or a master. That’s not the same as saying Thou Shalt Have Slaves And You Over There, The Guy From Another Tribe…Thou Shalt Be A Slave.

I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. Indeed, I don’t believe in God in the first place. But I know that the Bible is pretty specific about how God feels about gays. This is the same God that now and again wipes out cities for being excessively sinful.
Trying to convince a Bible-reading Christian that God is cool with gays is a losing proposition.

The_Anonymous_Witch's avatar

then convince him there is no god….. it should be easy , he probably already knows , .... but getting him to admit it is the hard part .

Qingu's avatar

@Factotum, for God’s command, look at Deuteronomy 20:10.

When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you in forced labour. If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you.

Moses, citing God, also commands his soldiers to keep all the young Midianite virgin girls as “booty” in Numbers 31.

I agree that at the time the Bible was written, slavery was a fact of life. Also at the time the Bible was written, marriage was an economic arrangement and women were seen as the property of first their fathers and then, after a brideprice exchange, their husbands. There is no punishment for rape in the Bible (if you rape someone else’s wife, you get punished for adultery; if you rape an “unbetrothed virgin” you have to pay for her and marry her because “you break it, you buy it” (Dt. 22).

If you’re so eager to ignore what this document says about slavery, women’s rights, and rape, one wonders why you care what it has to say about gay rights.

ChocolateReigns's avatar

OK now I’m getting really worked up. I think I should say one other thing before I really do bow out. I’m going to say that I’m only 13!! Don’t expect me to have all the answers!

tinyfaery's avatar

@ChocolateReigns The problem seems to be that at 13 you seem unwilling to question your ideas and beliefs even as people show you the faulty reasoning behind what you say you believe. You have a lot to learn. Just because it is written doesn’t make it true. Just because your parents tell you something is true does not make it so.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

why do these always devolve?

tinyfaery's avatar

Very passionate beliefs on both sides, @Simone_De_Beauvoir. I don’t think there is a lot of middle ground here. My own parents voted for Prop 8.

Factotum's avatar

Thank you Quingu for the Biblical quote. I didn’t know of it. It’s awful.

“If you’re so eager to ignore what this document says about slavery, women’s rights, and rape, one wonders why you care what it has to say about gay rights.”

I’m an atheist. I don’t much care what the Bible says about anything. There are many believers who do though and that is the point I was trying to make.

Qingu's avatar

13? Shit, now I just feel dirty.

@Factotum, yeah, sorry, that last comment wasn’t meant to be addressed to you.

@ChocolateReigns, I don’t expect you or anyone to have all the answers. I just hope you don’t expect the Bible to have all the answers. I think if you continue reading it, honestly, you’ll find that it has far less and far worse answers than you’ve been led to believe.

halfg's avatar

@ChocolateReigns Jesus Christ, you’re 13? No wonder. I’m sorry, listen – don’t be afraid to question your beliefs, your parents, and the bible. You’re not going to go to hell, God isn’t going to strike you dead with a lightening bolt. Ask questions. Ask lots of them. Read articles about social injustice. Read about civil rights. Watch the documentary For the Bible Tells Me So. Work hard in school. Go to college. Hang out with people that you normally wouldn’t ever hang out with (isn’t that’s what Christ did?).

When this blows over in a few years, a few decades perhaps, and gay people are eventually allowed to get married and are finally treated as equals – do you really want to have to tell people that you were on the wrong side of history?

ChocolateReigns's avatar

Don’t worry…I am questioning things. I know just because my parents say so, something isn’t true. I’ve already gotten into quite hot water by disagreeing with my parents. But I believe in the Bible. I enjoy debating with people. I think we should just agree to disagree.

Qingu's avatar

Do you believe what the Bible says about slavery?

ChocolateReigns's avatar

so much for really bowing out….
Yes. It was alright in the OT testament as long as they didn’t treat them cruelly, and in the NT most of the references to slavery are talking to the slaves and telling them to respect their masters and not worry about being considered not as good as everyone else.

Qingu's avatar

Do you think it’s wrong to outlaw slavery?

Or are you a moral relativist, thinking that what’s wrong in one place and time could be right in another place and time?

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