General Question

zookeeny's avatar

I told my nephew that his dads new 'friend' is actually his dad new 'girl friend' was I out of line to tell him the truth?

Asked by zookeeny (875 points ) December 25th, 2009

My nephew is 5 and a half. My sister married a horrible man and he still sees the kids. He pretends that the women that lives in his house is just a friend but her nephew and neice go to his school and tell him that they are boyfriend and girlfriend. I said yep that was true that this women was his dads new girlfriend. Mostly I told because it is true – Im not prepared to lie to cover up his dads behaviour (he was cheating on my sister all through the pregnancy of their 3rd baby and is highly manipulative and a bully). I speak kindly of his dad to the children – ask them how dad is and what they have been up to and tell them how many sleeps until dads weekend etc so I am very conciderate of the fact that the kids love their dad and I dont want to confuse or hurt that by mixing them with adult issues. The difference with the boyfriend and girlfriend question was that I strongly strongly believe that the children need to know there is a difference between friendships and relationships. I dont think it is healthy for them to know their dad sleeps in the same bed as her and that they kiss etc and yet are told they are ‘just friends’. I therefore answered the question yes she is dads girlfriend. He was hurt and upset when I told him and then corrected me and said no she is just his friend not his girlfriend. Now I feel uncomfortable having said that to him because I hadnt expected him to deny it after asking the question – if you see what I mean.

It is such a toxic situation between my sister and her ex husband but she wants to keep their realtionship with their dad because they love him and he loves them and he is good to them. She doesnt want to end up the ‘bady’ by making access difficult etc so she is very accomodating – despite the fact he continues to abuse and manipulate her and the fact that he cheated on her in such a cruel way and messed with her mind (whilst she was very pregnant) beleiving himself that seeing another women wasnt an affair and was her fault etc. The lies are just being continued by lying to the kids. I dont want to be part of it and I also dont want them thinking the behaviour of their dad and this women is things ‘friends’ do – I really dont think that it is healthy.

In a way it isnt my place to say but when asked directly it was hard not to tell the truth.

What should I do?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

61 Answers

hungryhungryhortence's avatar

The past details of the cheating that went on in the relationship between your sister and this man need to be kept between adults only. There’s no reason to lie about the woman being his gf rather than friend but if a 5yr old wants to say otherwise then let him, big deal. A 5yr old doesn’t need any details about why his dad and mom are no longer a couple, your sister or ex brother-in-law can go over that with your nephew themselves. A 5yr old doesn’t need to know this particular woman may have had to do with the cheating between your sister and her then husband. Even if asked directly by a 5yr old, there are some things best left to his parents to discuss so that you don’t ever find yourself in a middle spot.

StupidGirl's avatar

@zookeeny You wrote “I’m not prepared to lie to cover up his dads behaviour” and “I speak kindly of his dad to the children” while also “he [...] is highly manipulative and a bully”
To sum it up, you did lie and now you’re paying for your incongruency, as is the kid.

zookeeny's avatar

I dont speak kindly of his dad as in talk him up to be something he is not. What I mean is I show interest in their experiences they have – did they have fun? etc I didnt mean I speak kindly as in talk about their dad being great if you see what I mean. I dont dis him to the kids I ask neutral questions about what they have been up to and so on. I dont ever say their dad is a nice guy or kind or whatever. Is that what you mean?

StupidGirl's avatar

So you act neutral? While you clearly think “he [...] is highly manipulative and a bully”.
That’s like hiding information and not saying what you really think? That qualifies as lies in my world.

HasntBeen's avatar

I agree that it’s not really your job to sort out the child’s understanding of adult relationships—in a case like this, I would err on the side of protecting privacy: the father, for whatever he has done, still has a right to privacy and it’s not anybody else’ business who he is sleeping with (or not). The child has no compelling need to know, and it also treads on the delicate relationships in a tense situation.

So I think it was a mistake—but the world hasn’t ended, yes?

JustPlainBarb's avatar

I think you probably should have just told the child that he would need to talk to his parents about it. In my opinion it’s not your place to tell the child anything.

PandoraBoxx's avatar

Regardless of whether or not your ex-brother-in-law is a low-down no-account, he is still your nephew’s father. For you, the man is of no relation any more. You do not have to deal with him. Your nephew needs to have as healthy of a relationship with his father that’s possible in this situation.

Your ex-BIL cheating on your sister and being a good father to his son are two different things. I don’t think you did the wrong thing by telling your nephew that the woman is his dad’s girlfriend because he’s hearing it from the woman’s children at school, and if he asked you directly about the relationship, you should have told him the truth.

One of the things you will find as a common theme among adults who grew up as children of divorced parents is how difficult it is when parents speak badly of each other, or put children in the middle of the tension between the adults. While you want to be supportive of your sister, its more important to help her children feel as normal as they can about their father, and neither feed nor support negative comments about him, even if they come from the children themselves, as long as they are not being harmed.

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

If there is no physical abuse involved, this is really none of your business. Five years old is probably much too young to understand aldult relationships. Hopefully he really doesn’t understand the significance of the difference between “friend” and “girlfriend” and was just reacting to your using a different term than his father does.

dpworkin's avatar

I think that the child’s well-being is up to his parents, and that if you are smart you should stay out of it. I think you have already stirred up enough mischief, and it seems to me you did so for your own complicated reasons. That’s not loving your nephew, or doing him any favors. That’s just being selfish and self indulgent.

AnonymousWoman's avatar

I would want to know, no matter how young I was. If you were my aunt/uncle and I denied it when I was young, I’d end up respecting you later on in my life, I’m sure, for not hiding the truth from me. I WANT to know if my mom has cheated on my dad, just like I WANT to know if my dad has cheated on my mom. I don’t care how much my parents think it’s an adult issue that is just between them. I didn’t when I was younger and I don’t now. Of course I’d want to deny it and act like it didn’t happen, though, because I’d like to believe my parents are faithful to one another. However, I want to know the truth. I want to know what’s going on. And I’m going to find out anyway. Children are smarter than many people give them credit for. I can tell when my parents aren’t getting along with each other, and I don’t remember ever not being able to tell. If my parents don’t tell me what’s going on, I’m going to figure it out anyway, because curiosity just works that way. The parent who is more honest with me gets more of my respect, and the parent who is less honest with me gets more resentment. It’s just the way it works! I hate it when parents have the attitude that we’re too young to understand what’s going on between them or whatever. It’s so silly. I’m 19 now, but I don’t remember feeling differently when I was younger. I want the best for my parents. I really do. I care about them. If the dad doesn’t want his children to know about his “new girlfriend”, that means that he knows what he is doing is WRONG, and that makes it that much worse. If he doesn’t want his own children to know, he shouldn’t have one to begin with! This is not a case of not being allowed to date because your parents won’t allow you to. It’s a case of being an adult who cheated on, effectively, his own family. He walked into this one. No, I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’d be wrong to lie…. Children DESERVE to know what’s going on and DESERVE to know the truth. If my aunt/uncle told me that someone was just my mother’s or father’s friend, when that person was in actual fact having a relationship with one of my parents, and my aunt/uncle KNEW this before covering up my mother’s/father’s story, I think I’d be very pissed off at that uncle/and and lose trust and respect in him/her. Maybe if people stopped PROTECTING these people who cheat, all of this cheating would just stop altogether.

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

@StupidGirl Good assessment based on the information provided. +GA

hug_of_war's avatar

I know the popular opinion is “it’s none of your business” but I disagree. I think you did the right thing. Five year olds are far more knowledgable than we give them credit for. You don’t speak ill of him to the children, and while they need to know nothing of his cheating, I think they deserve to know he IS dating someone if she lives with them. Not being open about that stuff scars kids and it’s not like you just wentt up and told them – they asked. By not being truthful the dad made it your business.

PandoraBoxx's avatar

@hug_of_war, nonsense. This is an ex-in-law. @zookeeny is not privy to his intents. Perhaps the woman he’s living with believes that this is a relationship that is going somewhere. Perhaps the dad thinks of her as a friend with benefits. Whatever it is, plays out between the father and the son. If he lies to his son, he is accountable for it to his son. He’s not accountable to his ex-in-laws.

@AnonymousGirl, I would agree with you, if this was a child of at least 10. Young children need to be made to feel not anxious about the disintegration and restructuring of their families. “How come dad lives with these two kids that go to my school and their mom, but doesn’t live with me and my mom?” creates anxiety. Finding out that this is his girlfriend, and wondering if they’re going to get married and have more children creates all sorts of complexity, leading to “why does dad love these kids more than me that they get to live with him?” Getting used to having two households and other people being in their parents’ lives is more important at age 5–6, than knowing an adult version of the truth. But if he asks, he should be told the truth to whatever his question is.

AnonymousWoman's avatar

@PandoraBoxx Hey, thanks for your response. This whole thing just tells me that I need to be extremely careful with who I marry and who I end up having children with. I would like my children, if I ever have any, to have a good dad who cares about his wife as well as them . . . and I’d like to care about him and our children as well. In a perfect world, children would have two parents who love each other very much and who also love them very much. It’s sad when parents make their sex lives more important than their own spouse and children. That’s the way I see it. Sex is more important to them when they put their spouse and children through something like this. How else can I look at it? It’s disgusting.

PandoraBoxx's avatar

@AnonymousGirl, marriage is pretty complicated, and a lot of people get married for the wrong reasons, such as all of their friends are getting married. It’s also hard work sometimes. Good communication skills are important, as are teamwork, and recognizing that having children is stressful. Men can be good dads without necessarily being good husbands.

AnonymousWoman's avatar

@PandoraBoxx That’s a good point. Still, though, I think it’s good if he can be both. My father is both a good husband to my mother and a good father to us. It’s nice to have a man I can look up to in my life who happens to be my own father.

Darwin's avatar

In dealing with my nieces and nephew, also children of divorce dealing with a manipulative parent, I tend to ask them back “What do you think?” They will then tell me what they think or that someone is telling them something they don’t want to think. In the first case, I would say that they may be right. In the second I might respond that I don’t really know but their custodial parent might.

Whatever my opinion is of the ex-wife, I do not share it with the kids. I do send them to my brother, their father, so he can tell them what he feels they need to know. Now that they are in their teens, they have figured out that their mom doesn’t often tell the truth, but they came to that conclusion on their own.

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

It’s clear your strong feelings about the whole mess overpowered your judgment.

Even when asked a direct question by your nephew because of what other kids told him, it was not your place to either corfirm nor deny the “truth” of the situation.

A mature, responsible adult would say something like, “It sounds like you are confused about what the other kids are saying. The only one who really knows for sure is your father. You can ask him about this.”

This shows empathy and leaves the child with the option to ask his father or to let it go.

What you did was to grab the opportunity to get between father and son because of your own hostile feelings.

Part of being mature is to know when to keep your motivations under control.

Don’t tell things that are not yours to tell.

Don’t do this again, because your nephew may have more questions.

HasntBeen's avatar

@Dr_Lawrence really pegged it.

Val123's avatar

@StupidGirl So….are you saying she should tell he Nephews what kind of guy he really is? Maybe I’m not understanding..
I have to agree with @Dr_Lawrence, especially at this age. Now, when he’s older, much older, you can have adult conversations with him on various issues.

StupidGirl's avatar

@Val123 I wouldn’t draw conclusions about him for them in terms like “he [...] is highly manipulative and a bully”—but I wouldn’t hide the facts. I’d tell ‘em what’s happening the moment it’s happening (“he was cheating”) and how that makes me feel inside so they can draw their own conclusions.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I know it may be difficult to respect a man that you feel is not a good man – but it really sounds like you were getting some of your anger out by telling the kid something his dad didn’t want to say

Val123's avatar

@StupidGirl I don’t think that’s her place. It’s the mother’s place to tell the kids what she wants them to hear. I didn’t bad mouth my kid’s dad either, because that gives a kid a serious sense of insecurity. So, for their benefit I stayed quiet. They found out on their own when they grew up. The Mom is doing what she feels is right for the kids, and it’s not anyone else’s place to step in and tell them otherwise.

dpworkin's avatar

Thanks, @Val123. Someone has to think about what is good for the child, and one thing is for sure: it is not good for a child to be alienated from either parent, either by the other parent or by a “well meaning” narcissistic busy body.

Val123's avatar

@pdworkin Well, I don’t know about that term for the OP, but I do know that it was hard enough on the kids, their dad being gone out of their lives. It would have been harder yet for them to think he and I weren’t together in anyway at all. I did the best I could to present what appeared to be a united front even though he was 2000 miles away (of course, when they visited him those two times it was a whole different story.) But yes. It does nothing but harm to the child to be alienated from their parents in any way.

dpworkin's avatar

Gee did I mention the OP?

Violet's avatar

the child was being told by other kids, the woman lives with the dad, and the dad is lying.. maybe it is best you told the child the truth.

Val123's avatar

@Violet But was it the Aunt’s place to tell the truth? Or should she have put the ball in Mom’s court?

Violet's avatar

@Val123 I think involving the mom would have created more drama

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

I think that increasing the drama is not what a 5 year old needs. He needs to feel loved and cared for by his parents. Anyone who manipulates the situation to increase the conflict or heighten the drama is acting maliciously and contrary to the needs of the most vulnerable person in all this, the child (or children) involved in this marital breakdown.

Violet's avatar

@Dr_Lawrence what about the other children telling the 5 year old? And the dad lying?

Val123's avatar

@Violet I didn’t suggest involving the Mom. In a nutshell, the OP, the Aunt, should have deflected her nephew’s questions, and referred HIM back to Mom. She (mom) is the one who has to deal with the fall-out of whatever answer is given.

Other children telling the five year old is a completely different situation than a well informed adult who has the child’s best interests at heart. Not the same at all.

And again, the Dad lying…the kids will figure it out soon enough. In fact, they already have, even if Dad wants to deny it. And the sad fact is, the Dad is more than likely lying about a lot of other things, too. The Mom needs to be the one to deal with it, because she’s going to be witness to ALL of the Dad’s lies. Not just this one, isolated incident.

I think the OP meant well, but I think she should have handled it neutrally.

Violet's avatar

@Val123 OP? As in OPP? lol, I have no idea what OP means..
I have a feeling the mom doesn’t know, and that is why the dad is lying. I think if the mom found out, all hell would break loose.
I think it’s fine the aunt told the kid the truth. It’s not like she told him there’s no Santa. The kid had been lied to enough. What harm would come from the aunt telling the kid the truth?

dpworkin's avatar

The OP is the Original Post, or the Original Poster.

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin lol! Do you know what OPP means?

dpworkin's avatar

No, but considering the source I am very nearly certain that it has something to do with a sexual practice.

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin lol, it’s from a song. (other peoples’ property). It goes: down with OPP? Yea, you know me. Meaning, sharing partners. It’s by Naughty by Nature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.P.P._(song)

Val123's avatar

@Violet Um, at this point I can’t imagine why the wife would be pissed off. They’re divorced. Further, I’m sure she already knows. If the kid is asking the Aunt about his dad’s “friends”, then he’s certainly asking the Mom. It’s up to the Mother to decide how to deal with it, no one else. I still say that since the Mom, (not the Aunt, not the babysitter, not the next door neighbor) has to deal with the fall out of any emotional information a kid gets from any source, she should be given the courtesy of respecting her decisions, even if one doesn’t agree with them. As she noted, Mom is trying very hard to help the kids maintain a relationship with their father. If that’s broken, again, she has to deal with it.

Would you be OK with one of his teacher’s telling the kid that his dad is lying, that these “friends” are actually “girlfriends?”

Violet's avatar

A teacher isn’t related, or involved in any way. The kid did not go to the teacher to find out the truth. They when to the aunt. The kids deserves to know the truth. If the mom knew, and didn’t tell the kid the truth she’s just as fucked up as the dad. If the mom knew, that makes everything even worse. This child can’t grow up in a world of lies. I’m glad they can turn to a relative who is going to tell them the truth.

dpworkin's avatar

The kids deserve to learn things about their parents by themselves, instead of being deliberately alienated from either parent by an outsider (or by the other parent.)

These children love their father unconditionally and will learn to hate the person who told them the “truth”. That’s what happens.

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin why would they hate their aunt who just told them that the girl is a girlfriend and not a friend. That is not a huge secret. It’s very strange the kid didn’t already know. I think the kid would love the aunt more for telling them the truth

dpworkin's avatar

That’s not how it works most of the time. The reason this is known is that family courts deal with these issues daily, all over the country, and there are hundreds of studies ranging from adequate to excellent, using court data, that demonstrate that children end up hating the person who tried to alienate them from a beloved parent.

Violet's avatar

I don’t think the aunt is trying to alienate the child in any way. The child came to HER.

dpworkin's avatar

And she should have zipped her interfering judgmental narcissistic lip.

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin that was very rude, and very hypocritical of you. Did you not notice you’re comment was “interfering judgmental narcissistic”?

Val123's avatar

Are you saying it would be wrong for the teacher to tell the kid the truth if he brought it to her? What difference does it make if it’s a teacher or a relative telling the kid the truth? Does the truth “change” or become less important depending on who gives it to them?

Also, you’re making a lot of assumptions.
♣ That the mother would flip out. You don’t know that. And if it IS true, and the kid is the one to break the news to mom (now that he knows The Truth) then he’s going to feel responsible for the flip out.
♣ That the child didn’t take it to the teacher. You don’t know that. He’s a kindergartner. The chances are he DID bring it to the teacher. Kindergartners talk about everything in their lives to their teachers. Chances are, he did, and the teacher wisely said he needed to talk to his mother.

dpworkin's avatar

My comment had no effect on any dependent children. It was merely a statement of opinion. We can disagree. Why get angry and start characterizing my opinions as “rude’ and “hypocritical”? I don’t do that to you.

Val123's avatar

@pdworkin )“And she should have zipped her interfering judgmental narcissistic lip.” Aw, come on man! Not fair!

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin think about the women asking the question. That is not a very nice thing for you to say. I think you know that too.
“It was merely a statement of opinion.” calling someone “interfering judgmental narcissistic” is judgmental of you to say. Can you not see that?
I’m not trying to “get angry”, but your comment really was not nice.

dpworkin's avatar

I don’t think the OP behaved well.

Violet's avatar

@pdworkin : ) that was much nicer of you

Val123's avatar

@zookeeny To take just one thing from your post: “I therefore answered the question yes she is dads girlfriend. He was hurt and upset when I told him and then corrected me and said no she is just his friend not his girlfriend.” Man….you weren’t expecting your nephew to become upset to the point where he would deny it, were you! Thing is, we don’t know what the concept of a “girlfriend” IS to a five year old. Someone who is going to take his mother’s place, maybe? Who knows what’s going on in their little brains. It’s…..maybe it’s kind of like the Santa Claus deal. Maybe some kids just need to believe certain things until they gradually reach a maturity level where they can absorb it, gradually become OK with it. I feel for you! But….we’ve all messed up in the things we tell kids, and don’t realize it until they have a reaction we didn’t expect. Thing is, in this case, it really was up to your sister to break the news. Maybe she’s been playing along with the “friend” game because she knew how much it would upset her son….really, for the future, those kinds of questions need to be referred back to your sis, since she wants the best for him too. And good luck! (It’s OK, though. It’ll be OK. And it’s good to hear that although he may be total jerk to his women, he’s good to his kids. We all do misguided things in an effort to “protect” our kids.)
BTW…have you heard from your sister since this incident?

zookeeny's avatar

Interestingly the main point of my answering my nephews questions when asked if she was his girlfriend was as a child protection issue and this was not mentioned by any response given. The issue I was making clear to him was that there are differences between what behaviours are those of girlfriend and boyfriend and those of friends. In the context of the conversation and conversations we have had prior it was relevant and important. If he were to believe that hugging and kissing and sharing a room were behaviours of ‘just friends’ I felt that would not be appropriate. What if he thought it was ok to hug and kiss his friends? Or for his friends to hug and kiss him in a ‘friend’ way. The situation was as clear as that. It is very hard to understand the fullness of the question and situation from a post so although I enjoyed reading the responses I realise it is not really a useful place for accurate reflection on situations.

It turned out to have been just the discussion he needed to break the wall of silence he had been holding up. He needed the complete honesty and safety of a sincere not crap answer to a sincere question to allow what happend the next night. I was putting him to bed and we had our usual stories and nice chatter then he went quiet and curled up and sobbed. He let all the pain he had been holding about his parents divorce and the confusion out. I got my sister, his mum, and together we listend to his worries and sadness. It was the first time she had clearly been able to see the pain he was in and if I hadnt been honest with him when he wanted me to then he would have probably continued to hold it all in. By answering his question the day before I had opened the door to show him it was ok to talk about it all. He was testing my trustworthyness on such an important issue for him. The actual friend/girlfriend question was not the issue at all in the end it was just a way or clearly testing out whether he could talk about the huge and scary changes in his life. That was partly my discomfort I think with the question as at the time it felt more weighted then I would have expected from the question and answer. I was left wondering what the unbalanced feeling was about the conversation. His denial was nothing to do with the actual question it was to do with the willingness to push the situation further and open up. He was telling himself not to continue at that point – but then the next night had thought it through and was ready to let himself express what had been storing up.

I do not regret for one moment my answer. I know how hard I work at to remain netural towards his father. I encourage free flow of conversion about both parents and even send pictures to their dad that the kids do for him and photos if I take any specially nice ones which the kids mights want to share with him. I am infact highly mature regarding the divorce situation. I have my feelings about his dad but never project them into my conversations with the children.

I never have any desire or need to hurt the children or make anything harder for them or my sister. Everything I do is careful and never do I suffer from an “interfering judgmental narcissistic lip”. It is this very lack of judgement and self obsession which makes it possible for my nephew to open up to me and trust me with big and small issues. I think pdworkin your responses reflect issues completly unrelated to the question and scenario I posed. Your anger and judgement is far outweighing the actual content I provided you with. Maybe if people had been more honest and mature in your life you would be able to seperate your own feelings to know which ones belong where. Accussations such as the one you made toward me are out of place given the limited content you had to work with and base your answer on.

My sister is very aware of what her husband has been up to and left him a short while after their baby was born. She stayed with him for a couple of weeks after their 3rd baby was born so that the other 2 children didnt have a new baby to deal with plus a new house plus their parents splitting up. It was a very painful time for her but she wanted the children to be eased through the situation as best as possible. I have been very supportive of her and the children and she has invited me and wants me to have a very full role in the care and support of her children – perhaps more so then some families experinence with their extended family members. I have accepted the responsibility of this and that is why it is not an issue with my sister when I help her children to make some sense of their worlds. I told her of our discussion and his question that evening. She was in denial that it was effecting him as hard as it then turned out the following night. Turns out honesty (age approriate honesty) is the best policy most of the time.

Thank you for your posts in response to this dilema. It is always good to look at things from a number of angles but then it does always seem to come down to trusting your own gut instincts in the moment. Turned out my gut instinct to respond simply and honestly was a very good response.

dpworkin's avatar

@zookeeny The fact that you felt the need to attack me in order to defend yourself only affirms for me your own squeamishness about your own thoughtless, dangerous and narcissistic behavior. If you were as certain of your innocence as you wish us to believe, you could easily have ignored me completely.

zookeeny's avatar

I just didnt want you to feel ignored as you were doing so much stamping and growling.

nicobanks's avatar

I think you did the right thing. It sounds like a messy situation, and most of that isn’t your place to fix: if you had sought out the kids to tell them the truth, that would be unacceptable, because even though lying to kids is wrong, it’s not up to you to raise these kids. However, they came to you to ask you a question: if you feel lying is wrong, you ought not do what you feel is wrong, hence, you did what you feel is right, and told the truth. Good for you.

Stop feeling guilty.

If anyone accuses you of wrongdoing, tell that person, plain and simple: “I’m sorry to have contradicted you and caused you trouble, but I simply do not feel comfortable lying to children. I don’t think it’s right, and while I can’t tell you what to do, I can control my own actions, and I will never lie to a child.” End of story.

I mean, really, a parent can’t lie to their children and assume the world will go along with their lie! Ridiculous!

nicobanks's avatar

@StupidGirl So you’re saying if you think a child’s parent is an ass, you tell that child so or else you’re lying to the child? Are you kidding? Can’t you imagine the problems that would create for the child? And telling the child their parent cheated on the other parent? That is none of the child’s business!

judymcb's avatar

as tempting as that is, it doesn’t hurt daddy dearest, it only hurts the baby. what would you like told to your child if the situation was reversed??

Response moderated (Spam)

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.

This question is in the General Section. Responses must be helpful and on-topic.

Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther