General Question

WCUBassBone1's avatar

Why aren't females allowed in special ops?

Asked by WCUBassBone1 (163 points ) January 13th, 2010

i.e. Green Berets

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

58 Answers

drClaw's avatar

Because while women are allowed in the military there are rules around the action they see.

marinelife's avatar

They are in some countries such as Canada.

holden's avatar

Because in some circles the maxim “don’t send a woman to do a man’s job” still holds.

lilikoi's avatar

I think that’s sexist. Then again, I’m secretly glad women aren’t required to enlist in the draft. What a fine line we do walk.

TheLoneMonk's avatar

I would say because they have special skills that would interfere with their other duties.

drClaw's avatar

Women on SWAT teams often do just as good as men, especially when you consider that a fit 140lb women will out perform a 200+ lb man in most areas of speed and agility. So maybe it is sexist, however rape in the military is rampant and throwing a woman in a testosterone pumped boys club can end up being all kinds of f*cked up.

oratio's avatar

If they get through training on the same terms they should be allowed.

Blackberry's avatar

It’s not sexist to say that usually…men are stronger than women. How is it sexist to say that men simply have more testosterone? The same women shouting sexism should go through SEAL and beret training first. It’s just nature. This is like asking why women usually get the kids in court battles.

oratio's avatar

@Blackberry This is like asking why women usually get the kids in court battles.
Lol, well now, that’s sexist, my man.

Blackberry's avatar

@oratio Yeah that was a bad example, sorry lol.

tinyfaery's avatar

Sexism, plain and simple.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

I think we’re missing a major point here. This isn’t all about it being a pissing contest.. who is better.. women or men? Can women do what men can do? No.. those aren’t the questions to ask.

What you have to consider is that men are men and women are women. Like it or not they are different. In a highly stressful environment, on a mission that could potentially be fatal for one or more people if one were to lose concentration.. every distraction needs to be removed!

IMHO, you have to take a step back and look at this not as a gender war.. but as an engineering problem. What gives me the highest chance for success? What elements of this team can I affect that will give me the greatest chance of successful mission accomplishment? Even the manliest of women (injected into such a stressful environment with men) can start to look a whole lot more like women and become a distraction.

The same would be true in an all female squad with one male member. It just doesn’t work. That’s just the facts. Maybe one day society will be shed of such .. disabilities.. such cognizant dissonance.. but that day has not yet come.

I rue the day when the liberal public wins some of these battles because units, squads, teams, etc will suffer a hit to their overall efficiency and productivity and it’s going to cost lives.

Again, this is all just my humble opinion .. but it has perhaps a little weight.. after all.. I’m in the military. I work in this environment every single day (yes, on weekends too). I understand the perception from the outside and how sexist it may seem.. but it’s just not the case. There is more to the story.

tinyfaery's avatar

It’s sexist, whether you admit it or not. And totally expected.

Blackberry's avatar

@tinyfaery Do you have any other arguments besides “It’s sexist”? What’s your reasoning?

tinyfaery's avatar

If a woman can fulfill all the requirements needed to perform in a position then she should not be excluded simply due to her sex. Do I need anymore reasoning?

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@tinyfaery Sometimes the “requirements” are to not lose lives .. and to accomplish a mission. The general public hasn’t the slightest idea what that even means.

tinyfaery's avatar

Well then no one should belong because no one can guarantee not to die or accomplish a mission. Pfft.

Blackberry's avatar

@tinyfaery Oops, something weird happened, but I was going to say: No I guess not, so the question is now if women that have passed the training still been rejected? That would be interesting to know.

tinyfaery's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater Don’t bother. Because I no longer bother with you.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@tinyfaery All you can do is give your team the highest chance of success. There is never a guarantee.. but if you can estimate a 75% rate of success in one scenario and a 76% in another… it makes sense to go with the 76%.......

I see you have no interest in discussing further which is probably for the best anyhow… because you haven’t provided any basis beyond the rudimentary for your argument so… it’s… a bit pointless to continue.

@Blackberry Women are currently not even held to the same standards in the regular military…. they are held to different standards because they are different.. imagine that… =)

AstroChuck's avatar

Because they’re just girls.

Maximillian's avatar

It isn’t sexist. Its the way things work. I think someone said it already. They create distractions to the men. This causes complications in the mission.
Plus, maybe I’m wrong here, but men, I think, could handle capture….better. There are twice as many interrogation techniques to be used on a women then on a men. Just a thought…..
Women, whether you like it or not, are designed differently. Men have testosterone, women don’t. Sorry. Just is. Plus, a man under pressure is known to handle it better than women. Most of the time that is.
It all comes down to the success of the mission.

faye's avatar

I would think women can handle pressure just fine- How is it ‘known’ that men handle it better? But I agree about maximizing the possibility of success. Women can do other aspects of a military life if they want to or there could be all women squads. I think some men would be surprised how tough we are. And maybe you should all look up testosterone!and see how we have it too!!! There were women squads in the resistance that got results.

Maximillian's avatar

@faye I meant no offense to you. Its just that, we men are attracted to you. And that does indeed jeopardize the mission.
And yes, you are tough. Hell, 30 hours of labor? I’d give up after 20 minutes.

faye's avatar

@Maximillian Hey, I wasn’t taking offense, I was having a down home argument! and fun it was, too.

Maximillian's avatar

@faye It is fun, isn’t it? haha

oratio's avatar

@Maximillian I think you should inform the Israelian Army about this. They have had female conscription for decades. Good men will die if you don’t intervene. Men getting a boner in the midst of combat. It will be the end them.~

Maximillian's avatar

@oratio I find it difficult to determine sarcasm on the internet. So I’ll just assume it is.
What I meant was if a male and female form a relationship (I mean an intimate one) then it can definitely alter the woman or mans psychological mindset.

faye's avatar

I just read on ‘Stategypage’ that a woman made it into Delta division of the Green Berets, and several comments about women in the US special forces. Are they just blabbering? They were calling themselves military names.

rooeytoo's avatar

So women who can qualify and pass the supposedly extremely stringent physical and psychological tests to become a seal or green beret, should not be allowed because a man might be distracted.

I think that is the man’s problem not the womans.

@oratio – GA

sEventoRii's avatar

the cost will rise if have both gender in the team cuz seperate restroom and other stuff must be built separately. and female in a group of man is just…..

mammal's avatar

They are, they do front line undercover work for all kinds of agencies.

Blackberry's avatar

Everyone has testosterone and estrogen, everyone knows this, the point is that women have more estrogen and men have more testosterone.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@rooeytoo It is the man’s problem. I’m certainly not contesting that. The fact remains, however, that it is a problem. Luckily there aren’t too many GI Janes running around.

drClaw's avatar

@oratio great point, women in the Israelian Army are about as tough as they come. In fact during a training camp (I am in MMA) a lady from the Israeli Army trained us in some basic Krav Maga (Israeli martial art). After hearing some of her combat stories and finding out that she was a combat instructor to many of Israel’s elite squads I must say the last thing on my mind was weather or not she could handle the stress of battle.

WCUBassBone1's avatar

I feel like we should have an all female special ops team as well. There are differences between men and women, and sexual attraction would definitely get in the way, but if certain women can master the training and such, we should be able to have our own team too.

Ansible1's avatar

I’m all for gender equality, but I can see the hazards of putting a woman in an all male scenario. I think an all female spec ops team is a good idea.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@WCUBassBone1 That would be an interesting experiment. If it was timed correctly (at just the precise time when all the women’s periods aligned) .. they would certainly be a force to reckon with.

WCUBassBone1's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater hahaha oh boy…...true story!

rooeytoo's avatar

Rampant, pathetic sexist ramblings.

rooeytoo's avatar

The second paragraph in your link says, “While there is no evidence conclusive enough to prove the theory, some scientists believe….....” Doesn’t sound too conclusive to me but the sexist part is the implication that all females become a “force to be reckoned with.” I would wager that most of the time you would have no idea if the women around you are menstruating or not. I resent the implication that all women become aggressive or have some sort of change in personality during menses. I would also suggest that those few who do experience some sort of mood fluctuation, are aware or mature enough to insure that their mood does not affect their professional persona.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@rooeytoo Holy hell rt… you really can’t take a joke can you? I wish I could give more lurve to @WCUBassBone1 for actually “getting it”. It’s funny how you completely ignore all convincing evidence FOR the synchronization based on that one piece of the story….

I beg of you to stop trying to make this into a sexist, gender war, step outside the box you’re in, and look at it from the eyes of a commander somewhere who has to send his troops to battle.. knowing full well that some of them will die. I suppose it’s a perspective outside of your realm of imagination.

gemiwing's avatar

Ok, so you’re going into a hostile situation. You’re dropping into an area where you will likely get shot at, injured, possibly killed and perhaps captured. If you get a boner for some female on your team, that you have probably seen vomit, and are distracted by a woman in full combat gear- then you probably wouldn’t last long in special ops anyway.

Shouldn’t you be a bit busier with other things than ‘ZOMG that’s a person with boobies and I have a penis!’. Isn’t part of being on a SpecOps team having the ability to know how to control yourself and concentrate on the job at hand?

I think females in special ops would be brilliant. They’d never even see us coming. Especially in arenas where women are wearing full-coverage religious-based clothing. But we aren’t looking at operating in any areas like that are we?

oratio's avatar

I think that some have missed the point here. It’s not “the guys have special ops teams, so I think we should have one too”. There is special ops, and anyone – regardless of ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation – that can make the cut with one set of standards, should be let in. It’s not golf. You can’t lower the requirements, and fight war with a handicap. The success of the team relies on every soldier, and they are there for carrying out a mission, and they might just die. I find creating a woman only special-ops team just as probable as having a special-ops for gay men.

I think most men can do their work with women around, I think boys can do well in school with girls around, and I think men can fight war with women at the front.

Now, most women would have a problem making it into the elite sections. Most men have a problem as well.

I think women like these two probably would do well: . (Kelli White and Chryste Gaines)

I think many would acknowledge that elite female athletes can kick most well trained mens ass. Sure, the strongest and fastest people on the planet are men, but I think we should ask “can they do the job?”.

Try them, train them, put them into action and evaluate. Special ops or not, I believe there are loads of women who would do well in combat. Let them prove it.

As a side note, the military seem to have a big issue with sex, don’t it. Women in the army creates a sex issue, and gay men seem to be good soldiers until someone finds out they are gay. And at the same time the military has such big problems getting recruits they lower the recruitment standards. They now recruit violent criminals, gang bangers and extremists as long as they are not gay. What is that?

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@gemiwing I take it you’ve never served in the military. Situations happen. It’s not just because of the elementary “boner and boobs” scenario you described. C’mon.. be serious.. XD

The problem everyone is having is that they aren’t speaking from an educated perspective. I’d love to hear from some people who have actually served and hear if their opinion differs from my own. There are a few hiding out there that are too scared of offending someone by admitting that having females in their squads/teams has negatively affected the overall performance of the squad/team. But perhaps there’s someone out there with the balls to admit it. Just maybe.

rooeytoo's avatar

@oratio – I am trying to give you another ga and for some reason it won’t work.

@NaturalMineralWater – I am not making it a gender war, I say let those who are capable do the job. You are the one who is making it a gender thing. There are always males who try to keep women out of their world for assorted reasons, but eventually you will lose and it will be the same as everything else, some women (and men) will prove to be very good at the job and others will fail. You might as well give up and work on acceptance.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@rooeytoo If you actually read this whole thread you’d see that I’m already accepting the fact that the liberal left wing nut jobs will eventually win the day. It will be a sad day indeed.

gemiwing's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater I can assure you I’m being quite serious. You assume a lot about my, and others, military knowledge so perhaps you already have been talking to people who have served.

faye's avatar

I hope a female special ops team saves your friend’s life. Because we can and will.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@gemiwing If I have, I’m not sure why they are scared to say they’ve served… makes no sense.

@faye I hope they change the PT requirements so that they are the same across the board instead of making it easier for women.

rooeytoo's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater I agree on that one, the requirements should not be relaxed, all who apply should have to meet the same standards. Then only the strongest women and men would survive.

That is what I have been saying all along.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@rooeytoo It makes sense right? All this talk of women can do this, men can do that… well.. why not make the standards the same? I never understood it beyond the basic biological fact that men and women are different. It doesn’t take a genius to see why women’s standards are lower.

Hockey2987's avatar

I’ll try and explain this in the most reasonable way possible. I have been playing hockey my entire life. I’ve played at US select camps, USHL camps, etc. I have seen women who are beyond the physicality of any woman I’ve met go to these camps and get absolutely destroyed. A woman named Angela Ruggiero played for the U.S. women’s Olympic team at around 6 feet tall and 195lbs…that’s the size of a well built male (weight/height ratio). She was the only player (not goalie) to play pro hockey. She played in the CHL…which is one of the lowest pro leagues…but over time, just didn’t cut it. She even tried to fight a guy at a CHL camp haha! She’s a badass…I’ll give her that. Special Forces is the NHL of the military…the strongest, mentally and physically toughest get there.

My point is that special operations soldiers are not your every day human being. There are numerous studies on spec ops soldiers which were shown to have extremely high testosterone levels and increased levels of norepinephrine, also known as noradrenaline; a chemical in your brain which allows you to stay calm under increased stress. These tests were done while in training at SERE School. This chemical is typically higher in males and some males, like those in spec ops, are biologically fit to have more. Extremely uncommon in women!

Saying this, I have yet to see many men that fit into that category and I highly doubt you will come across a woman who will…she would, honestly be a freak of nature. A women with those genetics, due to her female structure, would probably have an array of other physiological and psychological problems…forfeiting entry into the U.S. military.

For the women who think they can, take a look at your index finger and compare it to your ring finger. If high testosterone levels are present, the ring finger will be noticeably longer than your index finger. If they are even…you more than likely don’t have high testosterone and you sure as hell don’t have more than the average level of testosterone.

If you really want to do something like that, go to a good college and do well. After that, get a masters degree. If the school has it, get a degree that focuses internationally (Int’l affairs, Int’l political economy, Int’l business). Study foreign language while you’re there. You could also go into the military and be a combat MP. Once you have done that, apply for an intelligence agency. If you think working undercover for the CIA is not as badass as spec ops, go buy the book See No Evil: The true story of a gound soldier in the CIA’s war on terrorism by Robert Baer, a former OO for the CIA who worked undercover for 20 years in Iran. How did he meet his wife? He said she was his cover fire!

WCUBassBone1's avatar

These are all really great points. And I’m still laughing at @NaturalMineralWater even though that would be a deadly force. I would also like to second you with having an actual military personnel comment on this subject as it would be interesting to see a different point of view

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

The great men vs. women pissing test. First off men and women are different, at least I hope people know that. We are sitting here using PCs, iPads, smart phones, etc to make and answer these comments and questions. It takes two things to do that; software and hardware. I would have a rather interesting paperweight with whirling fans and LED lights but it will not do much more without the software to make it functional. I have a shelf full of software and jump drives that might as well be fashioned into a mobile or used as drink coaster with no way to read the info on them. Which is more important, the software or the hardware? I would say the are both EQUALLY important even though they are NOT EQUAL or the same in their construction. If I had nothing but software it is as useless as having all hardware. Two have two phy7sically different things and try to act is if they are the SAME thing with the same function is just ignoring reality.

How does that play here? Because naturally, pound per pound men do better than women in physical challenge, in Special Ops there are a lot of that. Take the reality show Expedition Impossible(TV_series), it is very physical, lots of hiking, and not at a stroll, repelling, climbing, swimming, while carrying a pack. Who are the ones to fall out of the competition? The old and the women. The only women left in the competition are those who are on male teams. The all-female teams are history. If Special Ops were a chess game where it was all about the mind, it might be different, but it is not. You have to be able to carry X amount over X amount of distance in X amount of time. If you are looking for the top of the recruitment pool to do that and women are physically unable to crack that top % then they can’t. One could say the creators of the competition rigged to get the women out of their when they actually could have won, to keep up the sexist status quo.

One can try to dismiss human emotion too, but when the fat hits the skillet, software wants to net up with hardware and vise versa. Just because you are in arms or in a battlefield situation women don’t disappear and become invisible. There will be men in the squad that would be over protective of the female members because of the natural less physical strength part. It is just hardwired into the human brain, like most people thinking babies are cute, and wanting to protect them. Even if such a fact has a 5% chance of scuttling the mission it has to be considered; we are speaking of life or death.

Nullo's avatar

Short answer: women shouldn’t have to fight at all.

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