Social Question

snowberry's avatar

Does this health plan mean that folks who don't want insurance still have to buy it?

Asked by snowberry (18217 points ) March 23rd, 2010

(Yes, there are still folks out there who don’t want a health care plan.) I’m talking about the people who for whatever reason, don’t want to sign up. Also, what about the people who are here on a visa, or illegal aliens? Do they have to have it, is it optional, or is it denied? What happens to them if they get sick, and land in the hospital anyway, and don’t have the money to pay the bill?

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264 Answers

Snarp's avatar

You buy a plan or pay a fine.

Seek's avatar

Yes, you have to buy it, or pay a fine that will go toward the inevitable “I didn’t want to buy in but now I broke my leg and need to go to the hospital!” fund.

We’re all screwed into paying for illegal aliens. They don’t get to buy in, and they will have to visit the emergency room on our dime. Thank the republicans for not allowing coverage of illegals.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@snowberry: They are required to have it. Some people say you are required to have it or pay a fine. That is another way of saying you are required to have it. There is also a third option… if you can’t afford it to pay the fine you go to jail.

skfinkel's avatar

I thought there was going to be financial help for people who couldn’t afford to pay…not that they go to jail! It’s only going to take 15 minutes for everyone to see this is the best thing that could have happened to American. Ironically, the most confrontational “tea party” types will also benefit in so many ways. I just hope they can say “I’m sorry.”

MrItty's avatar

Yes, just like people who own a car still have to buy car insurance even if they don’t want it. Just like people still have to pay taxes to send children who aren’t theirs to school. Just like people still have to pay taxes to pay for meat inspectors even if they’re vegetarian. Just like people still have to pay taxes to pay for the military even if they’re anti-war. Just like people still have to pay taxes to support the construction and maintenance of Federal Highways even if they never leave their town.

stratman37's avatar

Welcome to socialist America!

Judi's avatar

Yes, unless you agree to die in the street before you take advantage of an emergency room.

wundayatta's avatar

They have to get insurance or pay the fine unless they are one of the fifteen million or so that are not covered by the mandate.

judochop's avatar

Hello facist America.

Snarp's avatar

@stratman37 Yes, welcome to socialist America, the same socialist America we lived in last year, and five years ago, and ten, and twenty, and 70. You’d think if people didn’t like it they’d have left decades ago.

stratman37's avatar

@Snarp no, it’s not the same as five years ago. And I’m afraid it’ll never be the same again.

Judi's avatar

The fine is only $75 to start and there will be subsidies for those who can’t afford to buy insurance, including those who make up to $88,000 per year.

MrItty's avatar

@Judi families of four who make up to $88k

Cruiser's avatar

This is one of the major sticking points in this whole deal. I have been saving my whole life just so someday I wouldn’t have to buy insurance ever again. There are millions (17,000,000 ) of perfectly healthy people who won’t need to go to the doctor for 20 years or more. If so they pay full fare at the doctors office which is no where near what an annual health policy would cost. Most importantly up till now it was THEIR choice!! These are the smart one..the fiscally responsible ones who now will have a government gun to their head robbing them of their hard earned and sensibly saved money! The is FUBAR at the worst!

lilikoi's avatar

You pay a fine of 2.5% of your income.

Snarp's avatar

@Cruiser Fiscally responsible until you get sick with something that your savings can’t begin to cover and you lose your home, go bankrupt, and taxpayers have to make up the difference in paying for your care.

skfinkel's avatar

@Cruiser—How on earth do you know you won’t need health care for 20 years? Ever hear of a broken leg? a ruptured appendix? a car accident? cancer? What hubris!

squirbel's avatar

WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN 2014

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

So this fine thing doesn’t happen until 2014, and by then, most of the cost-reduction will have been in place. Not buying health insurance just isn’t wise.

lilikoi's avatar

@Cruiser I completely agree with you. Other than the student loan component, this was the biggest issue for me. I don’t mind paying a little for health care, but insurance companies are the problem. They are the middle men and the reason why health care costs are so inflated. To the dissenters: This is a fact, confirmed by doctors to me in person. I’d much rather pay my doctors directly.

@skfinkel My grandma hasn’t been to the doctor in about that time. Some people just have good genes and keep healthy.

@Snarp If you got sick and couldn’t afford it, you could always refuse treatment.

beancrisp's avatar

Yes, it is called tyranny.

Snarp's avatar

@lilikoi Yeah, that makes sense. Lots of people are going to die a gruesome death to maintain their conservative principles I suppose.

Seek's avatar

@lilikoi

That is one of the most heartless and disgusting things I’ve ever heard.

lilikoi's avatar

@Snarp @Seek_Kolinahr

The point is: It is my body, it is my health, and it should be my choice.
It is heartless and disgusting to force me to do something I may not agree with.
I’ve never been called a conservative before, lol! A momentous occasion.

Snarp's avatar

@lilikoi Except that no one is going to refuse treatment for a painful, debilitating disease, they are going to get the treatment, and I’m going to pay for it anyway, better to have a system in place for that.

Seek's avatar

@lilikoi

It’s simply not feasible for many if not most people to keep thousands upon thousands of dollars lying around unused for a rainy day. That is why insurance exists – so when your 8 year old falls out of a tree and breaks his leg in five places, that he can receive treatment from the x-ray, to the cast, to the physical therapy afterward.

Are you suggesting we allow our children to get gangrene and die to maintain conservative principals?

MacBean's avatar

Yeah, you’re perfectly healthy, until you’re not. I don’t care if you’re healthy as a horse. Get health insurance. You fucking need it.

lilikoi's avatar

@Snarp Yeah I hear what you are saying. There must be a better way!

@Seek_Kolinahr Wow, that is not what I am suggesting at all. Again, all I am saying is that we should have a choice. I can choose to buy into the system or I can choose to opt out. If you’ve got stupid kids breaking their legs every other month, you’ll probably opt in. If you are a single, young person in great health and have amassed the minimum $ formally required by law to insure yourself, you are in a position to opt out. Just because you can’t keep and stash a pile of money, doesn’t mean I can’t.

@MacBean I have been insured all my life, first via parents then via jobs. I can say with absolute certainty that insurance companies by far got the better deal. There is nothing that I couldn’t have paid for myself during this time, and the one thing that was pricey that I needed – orthodontic work at over $7k – was not covered at all!

Snarp's avatar

@lilikoi There is a better way, it’s called universal single payer healthcare, and it’s what most of the rest of the industrialized world uses.

MrItty's avatar

@lilikoi you can’t possibly predict the future and know that your life savings will be able to completely cover every single malady and injury that afflicts you. Your current “great health” is irrelevant. You have no way of knowing that tomorrow you won’t contract a rare illness and on the way to the hospital, get into a 15-car pile up on the freeway, that you caused and are subsequently sued by the other 14 drivers.

Until you invent a time machine, you don’t get to say that you know your life savings will serve as your insurance.

jaytkay's avatar

I’d like to hear from those who feel oppressed by the “tyranny” of upcoming health insurance.

All the 1st world countries have universal health care. Tell us about the horrible conditions we can expect, using real examples.

How are the peoples of the UK, Japan, Germany, Scandinavia and France managing to survive with the all the health care being shoved down their throats?

noyesa's avatar

Actually, you will be marked for death by Obama’s death squad, comrade.

Seriously guys, this is a technical question.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Yeah if you think this is tyranny, you’re one priviliged mofo

lilikoi's avatar

@MrItty I know that the odds of any of those things happening is slim to none. Insurance companies calculate and depend on odds, too.

@jaytkay Do they all have insurance companies in the middle?

MrItty's avatar

@lilikoi yeah, and? What is your point? The fact is that it’s possible. The fact that it’s improbable is irrelevant.

lilikoi's avatar

@MrItty No, probability is absolutely not irrelevant. How do you think insurance companies are still in business? They make a bet, you make a bet, and 9 times out of 10 they win. Probability is everything in this game.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I have hundreds of stories of cancer patients whose lives have been negatively affected by the mess that is health insurance right now – they’ve dropped out of treatment, dropped out of hospice, etc. – their health was affected ONLY by health insurance companies being what they are. I have a patient (in her 20s, metastatic breast cancer) whose insurance just said ‘we paid $40K this year for your chemo and we will pay no more’ and Medicaid denied her because her husband got a job and she has NO IDEA what to do…if we’re to fast forward 5 years, becuase of the health care tyranny reform, it will be illegal for insurance companies to set annual caps and have the nerve to tell these patients that they are no longer covered after they’ve been on treatment for months as is.

john65pennington's avatar

How many illegals do you believe will buy this healthcare insurance and how will the law be enforced? the Feds cannot even handle the illegals crossing the border, so how does one expect the non-insurance law to be enforced? its all a joke.

Seek's avatar

@john65pennington

I’d rather they pay in to the system, than be a drain on the emergency room.

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, they will do neither. they don’t pay taxes, so what makes everyone think they will buy healthcare insurance? most are paid under the table, so that should tell us something.

Seek's avatar

@john65pennington

They can’t buy health insurance under the new bill it won’t be allowed.. You can thank the Republicans for that.

MacBean's avatar

@lilikoi Well, lucky you. That’s not how it works for everyone. Take me for example. My medical conditions kept me from working and forced me out of school, which meant that my parents’ insurance no longer covered me, and I had to struggle and fight the system for years before I could get coverage to treat my preexisting conditions. If this bill had been in effect five years ago, I wouldn’t be trying to dig myself out of a shithole right now. If I’m lucky, I might be able to be a functional adult who’s useful to society by the time I’m about thirty.

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, remember this word…..indigent. this word is in the new law. it was placed there so the illegals would not have to purchase healthcare insurance. they are indigent. this is where you and i come into play. our higher insurance will again pay for the indigent. 12 million legal American citizens need healthcare insurance. where are the other 20 million everyone is talking about? 20 million illegals. taking them away from the emergency rooms and us paying for their indigent healthcare. is just about us paying the tab and not the Feds or the hospitals. i have seen this so many times at ERs.

Seek's avatar

@john65pennington

You’ve made clear time and time again that you wish every single illegal immigrant would just vanish into the ether. Unfortunately for you, that is not going to happen. Deal with it.

Snarp's avatar

Again we arrive at the logical solution: single payer health care and a largely open border with Mexico.

galileogirl's avatar

I don’t see the problem of paying for insurance health insurance or contributing to fund for the uninsured. We pay car insurance and homowners insurance and nobody thinks that is Socialism. We like car insurance because that covers the cost of mishaps. The bank requires homeowners insurance so that your mishaps are also, Healthcare insurance provides the same protection-So I don’t have to pay for your mishap.

Cruiser's avatar

@skfinkel Ask any hard core invester and insurance is the biggest scam out there. Do the math…on average I have been paying $7,000.00 per year for a family of 4 for the 16 years I have been married. (I am now paying $11,500/yr) That is $112,000 I have spent on premiums. My only big expense has been 2 normal births $30,000 each and one MRI, 3 emergency rooms and regular exams I really haven’t needed. All told maybe $75,000 worth of medical care. Insurance companies have made out pretty good I should say. Now had I taken the Investment gurus advice and invested the “difference” which would be $32,000 or 2 grand per year at 5% interest I would have $54,046.48 in the bank. Now mind you I am not a conservative investor and have actually averaged 7–10% per year so you could essentially double that figure.

Smart people should not be penalized for making good decisions. This should remain a choice and not another god damn tax!!

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, sorry. i just tell it like it is. i deal with them everyday on the streets. they kill each other, they legal citizens by running over them. the make the crime rate increase. they keep money at their apt. not in a bank for fear of being discovered. they send money illegaly across the border. just be legal is all i ask. after all, if they were legal, we would not be having this conversation. right?

Snarp's avatar

@john65pennington Then we need to create a system that will allow them to be legal.

john65pennington's avatar

Snarp. How would you like our country to be called The United States of Mexico? it may be coming, my friend.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington Maybe the parts we stole from them should be called that

john65pennington's avatar

The President of Mexico would like nothing better than to take back over what he called “his country”, meaning America.

Seek's avatar

/me is so over @john65pennington ‘s attitude toward other human beings.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington Didn’t know you were in close conversation with the “President of Mexico”...at least you agree it wasn’t ours to begin with…but then again, none of this land was rightfully ours to begin with…but I’m a socialist, so clearly I am all about supporting Mexico or Obama Hussein or Islamicists…right? eye roll

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, i honestly mean no offense. i see things that you do not. i deal with all kinds of people on the streets everyday. there is nothing i have not seen, smelled, felt or heard.

Snarp's avatar

@john65pennington Why do we get to decide that American must remain culturally and ethnically “white”? I don’t care what you do about immigration, white people are a minority in the world, and one day we’ll be a minority here. Would you rather your great grandkids are a minority in a country where the majority remembers them turning around and doing the right thing by them, or a minority in a country where the majority remembers racism and ill treatment?

And even when the ethnic shift happens, America will be a more mixed place, not just more Hispanic. There will be no “United States of Mexico” that’s just fear mongering, just like the yellow scare, anti-Irish hysteria, anti-German hysteria. Maybe this should only be an English country and I and all the other folks of German and Scandinavian heritage should leave? Or are we all right because we’re white?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington Fascinating…what kind of people do you think we deal with…here on the clouds?

Seek's avatar

BLah blah blah, you’re so damned special because you were a cop. You’re still a bigot.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@snowberry Sorry, can’t help it – but this kind of stupidity was expected on this question

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, find your fooler and stand in the corner. no bigot here, my dear.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

There’s far more egregious expenditures of your tax dollars that you aren’t complaining about.

MacBean's avatar

@john65pennington: Can you stop being a racist bigot for, like… ten seconds? Seriously, can you? Or are you actually physically incapable of being a decent human being?

john65pennington's avatar

Gotta go. i have been downed enough for today. interesting conversations.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington and please use whisper text – your comments are doing nothing to help this question..you think you can just hang around spewing stuff like that..I don’t think so…and hello ‘downed enough’...yeah sorry for the tyranny…that’s going to be what I describe everything now…tyranny

squirbel's avatar

@lilikoi: Can you complete your sentence so I don’t make any mistakes when commenting on your statement?

“The point is: It is my body, it is my health, and it should be my choice to _____________.”

CMaz's avatar

SO lets say to have a choice. $1,500 a year for insurance or $700 fine.

Don’t you think most will just pay the fine?

jaytkay's avatar

@ChazMaz
SO lets say to have a choice. $1,500 a year for insurance or $700 fine
Don’t you think most will just pay the fine?

Are those actual numbers people might be paying?

Seek's avatar

The $700 fine is for people who make $28000 a year, right? correct me if my math is wrong, which is likely.

CMaz's avatar

If you had to get insurance for yourself. Being self employed. What are you looking at? $80 to $150 a month?

Cruiser's avatar

@Snarp That is fallible line of thought. Only in extreme and again financially irresponsible situations would you find yourself financially between a rock and a hard place. If you are working and own a home as you posited in your reply to me you surely would have health insurance coverage unless you “chose” not to. Now to be hit with medical bills for unforeseen reasons you make adjustments in your lifestyle and make arrangements with your lenders unless of course you were dumb enough to live outside your means then you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of those “choices” you won’t have anymore in the not too distant future!!

ETpro's avatar

Yes, unfortunately, that is a sad truth of how private insurance works. If you don’t insure everybody, or nearly everybody, then the youngest, healthiest, most greedy among us will opt out. They are the ones it would cost the least to cover, but they prefer to roll the dice betting they won’t get sick or be in an accident. Some just bank the money but most spend it on fun instead of insurance. They get sick or injured and go to the emergency room. That’s the most expensive place there is to get healthcare, and they can’t pay. So the bill falls to the rest of us, and the lines to get treatment at the emergency room are all-day long.

A big part of why insirance costs keep skyrocketing is exactly that. To reign in costs, you have to force people to be insured. Almost every state does that for drivers for exactly the same reason. Allow the uninsured to drive, and the cost for all the rest of us skyrocket.

Qingu's avatar

@Cruiser, you said “I have been saving my whole life just so someday I wouldn’t have to buy insurance ever again.”

No you haven’t, you just invented this in order to have something to complain about this bill. Nobody in their right mind would “save their whole life to not have to buy insurance.” That makes no goddamn sense.

Cruiser's avatar

@ETpro You usually seem to have good solid grasp of the concept here…but you really went off roading with your last comment about the healthy being the ones who are “A big part of why insirance costs keep skyrocketing”. Skyrocketing costs are due to restrictions on interstate commerce here, out of control Torte and malpractice abuse, and fraud and abuse of the whole system.

Then you go on to say “To reign in costs, you have to force people to be insured.” HS! You frighten me!

Qingu's avatar

@Cruiser, please explain why restrictions on interstate commerce cause out of control costs.

Please explain why, contrary to the CBO and every other economist, you think tort reform would contribute more than a tiny fraction of savings.

snowberry's avatar

OK, so this is turning into a lot of answers. Thanks for all the response. But nobody’s said what happens to someone who does not have the money to purchase insurance. The government bills them? Tosses them in jail? What if you simply don’t have the means to pay, such as being unemployed?

Cruiser's avatar

@Qingu Because interstate “free market” commerce would allow me to shop right next door in Indiana and save oh say $3,500 per year on my policy!! We are talking the big picture here ET…Do you have any clue how much insurance money goes down the drain to just settle frivolous lawsuits just because scum lawyers know it is cheaper for Ins. Co’s to settle than to go to court?!! Further this forces Drs, nurses, hospitals to buy outrageoulsy expensive malpractice insurance and that cost is passed down to guess how? You and me!! It is a ginormous amount and guess who pays this?? I/we do!

Here is where reform and saving come in…
“The big winners are insurers, who last year paid out only 17 cents of every dollar they collected on medical malpractice insurance.”
Boy if we could recoup some of that excess that could further reduce my health care costs.

It’s the God Damn “K” Street lobbyists who control this whole process and nobody has the balls to take them on!! It would be political suicide!

AstroChuck's avatar

Quit your bitching. You are going to have to pay for it one way or another. Better to have some kind of system in place where we can ultimately reign in the costs. Why do all these people who are so dead against a national health plan never bitch about taxpayers paying $15 for an aspirin because someone without health insurance had to be seen in the ER. Quit getting all your “facts” the conservative talking heads from Fox News for once in your selfish “I got mine, go f*** yourself” lives.

Seek's avatar

Goddamn, @AstroChuck… that was a sexy answer. ^_^

Cruiser's avatar

@AstroChuck That is exactly what Obama wants both you and me to do. Here take my guns while you are at it!

Fernspider's avatar

I am just curious… what percentage of your income goes to taxes in the United States??

AstroChuck's avatar

@Cruiser- Just like a right-winger to bring up the second amendment where it has no bearing.
Besides, wasn’t Clinton supposed to have been taking all your guns away? That was what the NRA told us for the eight Clinton years.

thriftymaid's avatar

Yes, until it’s ruled unconstitutional.

liminal's avatar

Can someone tell me why people the public option was forced out of this bill?

skfinkel's avatar

@Cruiser Perhaps what is lost in this discussion is the notion that we are a social community, and we (the healthiest) contribute to the well being of others who may not have perfect health. Everyone buying in, even if health care is not fully utilized by one particular family such as yours, benefits by your good health. And you have contributed to the health of others. And then, coincidentally, if you ever join the ranks of the unhealthy, you will then be helped by your neighbors’ good health and participation in the system. So, really, the health care system allows you to contribute to the health and welfare of all. It turns out it isn’t really only about you—it’s about society. Just like taxes that pay for roads your family might not travel on, or missile defense even if no one is sending missiles, or schools even if you don’t have children, we as a social group together pay for things that may not help us individually but will help us collectively. Otherwise, we are all sad, lonely, misanthropic islands who care for no one but ourselves and our immediate families. What a miserable little world that would be.

galileogirl's avatar

@liminal Because of the “big government” label. It is crazy that people are afraid of big government and not afraid of big insurance. This is a big country, we need a government that can handle it’s challenges.

liminal's avatar

@galileogirl sigh. I thought it was something like that.

Cruiser's avatar

@skfinkel I could not agree with you more EXCEPT when is enough enough?? Had this been the old days the strong would take care of the weak until they became an unnecessary burden to the health, well being and safety of the tribe or village. How much more do you need me to do for you?? You already get 50% of my income in taxes…I employ people, I pay them well, I pay for most of their health insurance, I take your kids on scout camping trips and I volunteer in my community. Do you and @AstroChuck need me to wipe your asses too?? WTF more do you want from me??

noyesa's avatar

@liminal Because the government option would stifle the competition that makes healthcare so cheap in the first place.

noyesa's avatar

@Cruiser Healthcare and personal ass wiping, if I may, are completely different things. I mean same ballpark, but… no. The slippery slope fallacy is such a broken record.

galileogirl's avatar

@liminal Of course @noyesa is totally wrong. How could a public option kill for profit insurance companies unless it was more economical. A government run plan has the advantage because it’s premium would not include the 40% for shareholders and 7 figure executive salaries.

jaytkay's avatar

You already get 50% of my income in taxes
How do you do that? Write an extra check to the treasury?

galileogirl's avatar

@jaytkay You must be blessed with a very high income to pay that % in taxes. Or you may be fudging by implying that you pay that much in income taxes. Or your accountant is an idiot. The top federal tax bracket is 35% so you must be paying less than 35% of your post deduction income in FIT and what state has a SIT gt ⅓ of the federal tax. Seriously, get a new accountant.

Seek's avatar

removed by me

Cruiser's avatar

@jaytkay I wish I had time to explain the tax structure to you…but just Google it. Federal ,state, local real estate, sales, capital gains, corporate…add them up and some form of Government is getting over 50% of my income.

jaytkay's avatar

The top federal tax bracket is 35%

And that only applies to income over $372,951.00. Your entire adjusted income is NOT taxed at your bracket. Only the “top” of your income.

A family of 4 with $400,000 income, with no deductions (medical, mortgage) would pay roughly
25.0% federal
02.8% state (Illinois)
02.0% FICA
TOTAL 29.8%

If the income were $100,000, the total is about 21%

That is assuming income = wage. Long term capital gains are taxed at a lower rate.

That does not include real estate or sales taxes.

You could pay 50%, but I think you would have to try hard.

Cruiser's avatar

@jaytkay I told you already!! You need to add in sales tax, real estate taxes, capital gains, you left out social security and medicare and you may as well add in my health care costs which is 10% of my income!! If it were not for my 401 K the aggregate form of taxes would be consuming probably 75% of my income!!

noyesa's avatar

@galileogirl My response was supposed to be sarcastic.

jaytkay's avatar

@Cruiser
—Health care?? Not a tax. Take 10% right off your number
—I included Social Security and Medicare (FICA)
—Capital gains cannot raise the percentage, they are taxed at the same or lower rate as income

No, I did not include real estate or sales taxes.

ETpro's avatar

@Cruiser I am actually a strong proponent of both the suggestions you offer for cost control. But they are not either going to be a major player in cutting cost unless you do them in such a way to make an already terrible system even worse.

Torte reform needs to be done, but accounts for less than 1% of healthcare costs. And just eliminating the ability to sue would ensure that hospitals would soon operate like Enron and our friends on Wall Street. I’d just as soon go to Blackwater for treatment as go to a hospital that knew it and its doctors could treat me in the most negligent fashion possible, charge me whatever they wanted for half-killing me, and there would be nothing I could do about it.

So tort reform has to come with careful protections to weed out junk lawsuits and exempt doctors from having to order useless batteries of tests to protect themselves from liability, but at the same time ensure that real malpractice is still punished and its victims compensated. Do that, and the savings are unsubstantial.

Selling insurance across state lines is a decent idea, but will not have a major impact on cost. 95% of the health-insurance sold today is already controlled by 6 holding corporations. They already de-facto do operate across state lines, but the exemption from fair trade laws which would have to be stripped to allow pure cross-state sales would drive costs up, not down.

Why does the insurance cartel want cross-state sales and have their Republican water-carriers lobbying so hard for it? They can then buy up the state legislature of some small, low-tax state, have that state’s laws amended so they can sell even worse insurance with even more loopholes at even higher prices, and watch their profits sail through the roof.

If you even think about doing this, you have to put insurance regulation in the hands of a national commission. And I guarantee you Republicans (and their owners in the insurance cartel) would fight such a commission with nuclear weapons if needed.

john65pennington's avatar

Do i need my bullet-proff vest in order to survive the tongue-lashing here?

YARNLADY's avatar

No, Of course not, you can move to any country you think would have a better plan for you, or find out how to take advantage of the loopholes and avoid it completely.

john65pennington's avatar

I have one more comment and then i am gone. for the last seven years, hispanics have made my lunch everyday. these are some of the nicest, friendliest people you will ever meet. i have gone back into the working area of the restaurant that they work and i have lunch. the place is spotless. i am not against hispanics at all. some of my best friends. the object here is the word ILLEGAL. surely, no one can ban me for wanting Americans to be Americans legally. if Obama made all illegals legal tomorrow, this would put a smile on my face. at least, they would not be in violation of law, then. but, until that happens, they are still in America illegaly. right is right and wrong is wrong. gracious.

Seek's avatar

“right is right and wrong is wrong”

I disagree. There are many instances in which what is considered “right” is completely wrong, and what is “wrong” should not be deemed so.

john65pennington's avatar

Seek, lose your fooler, again?

noyesa's avatar

@john65pennington I’d hope nobody on Fluther would be immature enough to ban you for having an opinion, however opposing to the consensus. Half the reason this site is interesting is because the moderators don’t run around and remove any question that is even remotely subjective, much less a user.

Seek's avatar

@john65pennington

Insulting me does nothing to help your argument.

Also, it’s really adorable that you felt you had to add in the classic bigot defense: “Some of my best friends are _________”

john65pennington's avatar

Noyesa, thanks, i needed to hear that.

AstroChuck's avatar

@Cruiser- Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t need you to wipe my ass. I have one of those “Cadillac” plans to do that.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@john65pennington: Thank you for all your outstanding and underappriciated answers.

@Seek_Kolinahr: Of course “all” the illegal aliens cannot “vanish into the ether” but the few I catch inside my properties stealing my copper pipes can.

ETpro's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish You sound rather like Inspector Javert from Victor Hugo’s Les Misérables

Cruiser's avatar

@AstroChuck Boy that is gonna cost you come tax time! Funny guy! lol

Snarp's avatar

@Cruiser I have committed no fallacy, and frankly, you are wrong to suggest that only the financially irresponsible lose their homes and go bankrupt because of health care costs. It truly bothers me when people who are not financially well off are called “irresponsible”. In this world not everyone can be as financially well off as others. Someone has to sweep the floors, clean the toilets, and prepare the food. For some reason we don’t think these essential services are worth as much as the people who waste their time writing computer programs no one really needs (like me) or the people who waste their time creating ways to make people want things they would otherwise have no interest in. I have known women working two jobs and putting in more than forty hours a week at both to take home a pay check that barely paid the bills. They never saw their own kids, and they weren’t trying to “live above their means”, just to live. And they had no employer based insurance. So the people doing the essential work are underpaid, many do not have employer sponsored plans, or those plans are inadequate, and even people who are making more money can suddenly find that there insurance plan stops paying because it manages to discover that something they had was a preexisting condition or because they’ve reached the payment cap. “Sorry, we only pay for $40,000 of bills, you’re on your own now, good luck paying for that chemo.” These are things that happen to real people through no fault of their own. And I believe we were actually discussing your notion of not having to buy insurance because you were saving money. Only the very rich can save enough money to be covered in case of any eventuality, for everyone else, including your earlier example, there are conditions that can happen at any time and to anyone will break you no matter how much you have saved. On average is insurance a losing gamble? Of course, or there would be no insurers, and that’s why single payer is preferable. Why should you have a casino between you and the doctor? But it really doesn’t matter how much you win on average if you lose just once. It’s your life and your health we’re talking about, and the only way to make the whole thing work financially is to spread the risk and the cost around. The best way to do that is single payer, but since that’s “socialism” we have to make do with this ridiculous insurance system, and the only way to guarantee coverage without caps and preexisting conditions is to include a mandate. In the mean time, please stop pretending that when people work hard, take home their check on the bus to a small house or apartment, eat some tuna helper, and can’t afford to go to the doctor when their kids are sick that it’s their fault.

john65pennington's avatar

Cruiser, if i could give more than one credit for your answer, i would. john.

squirbel's avatar

Take it to private chat, boys.

Cruiser's avatar

@Snarp Listen this is not about class envy or lack of opportunity in this great country of ours cause there is plenty of opportunity and your argument is a poor excuse for frankly being lazy. I live in an area that is flush with illegals and they don’t seem to have a bit of a problem getting jobs, driving cars and darn it if they don’t look quite healthy to me. If they can do it so can any legal American Citizen. I can’t make it any clearer, that for me this is all about choice. I want the choice to decide how and when I have my health care provided for me and my family. I want the choice to decide if I want to pay for health insurance or not. I think it is a direct assault on my freedoms as an American Citizen to be forced to pay for health insurance. I am in no way trying to begrudge the sick or poor any ability to have even free health care as that is what we do as guardians of the free and the brave. For over 230 years Americans have fought for the rights and freedoms we have and I cannot fathom that forced health care or forced anything was something our founding father had in mind when they decided to risk their lives to start this great country.

Snarp's avatar

@Cruiser Working over 80 hours a week is lazy? You see “illegals” with cars and jobs and they “look healthy” so everyone else must be lazy? Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night after your hot toddy and a chapter or two of Ayn Rand.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Cruiser: “I think it is a direct assault on my freedoms as an American Citizen to be forced to pay for health insurance.” <== You don’t need the “I think” qualifier here. Even democrats know and recognize this forced-purchase as a reduction of freedom. They might argue that the health-care bill is worth this reduction in freedom, that this reduction of freedom is constitutional, that this reduction of freedom is similar in many regards to a tax… but never that it isn’t a reduction of freedom.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: How can people on Fluther BOTH say that we need the illegals because those jobs aren’t good enough for unemployed Americans AND that Americans don’t have a major laziness problem???

jaytkay's avatar

Nobody has even touched my question. How has universal health care harmed Japan, France, Germany & the UK?

If it’s bad, they must be suffering the consequences.

Snarp's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Because American employers have a major willingness to pay a living wage with decent benefits and safety and health precautions problem. It’s not that Americans are too lazy to do the work, it’s that if you hire an illegal immigrant you can pay them peanuts, work them overtime without paying for it, and not spend any money on OSHA required safety and health precautions because they’re too afraid they’ll be locked up and deported if they complain.

MacBean's avatar

I really wish Fluther had some kind of “bad answer” option. I don’t want to take away anyone’s lurve points. I just want a way to express disapproval without wasting my time, energy and brain cells arguing with goddamn morons.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: “How has universal health care harmed Japan” <== Japan has an aging population and it has greatly reduced the Japanese economy. Since the Japanese work so hard they are able to buy their way out of it but nontheless it hurts them terribly. The Japanese health care system furthers this pain by (being one of the reasons) Japan doesn’t allow itself to import the younger workers they never birthed.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish
Back that up with numbers, it’s a meaningless assertion.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: “Because American employers have a major willingness to pay a living wage with decent benefits” <== so Americans are unwilling to stay unemployed rather than accept anything other than “decent benefits”? LAZY If you are out of work you get the best job you can find regardless of benefits.

stratman37's avatar

@MacBean there’s the door…

jaytkay's avatar

LAZY If you are out of work you get the best job you can find regardless of benefits.

Unemployment more than doubled in one year because millions simply decided to be lazy?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: “Japan’s population growth has slowed in more recent years, with the annual pace of population growth averaging about one percent from the 1960s through the 1970s. Since the 1980s, it has declined sharply. Japan’s total population peaked at 127.84 million in December 2004. The 2005 Population Census showed the figure to be 127.77 million, declining from the previous year for the first time after World War II.” http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/c02cont.htm

This decline in population isn’t because so many more old people are dieing—less are. It is because young Japanese are not being born.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: Yes LAZY. Now that our economy is worse there are less high-paying jobs in America but there are still plenty of low wage ones. Additionally, if you extend the unemployment benefits then of course people will continue to stay on unemployment instead of getting a job.

jaytkay's avatar

Universal health care caused Japan’s decline in population? Explain that.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: If everyone in your country receives lots of expensive benefits you can’t import people to do cheap labor… the labor is always expensive even if you don’t pay them squat because they receive all the expensive benefits. Since Japan can’t import cheap labor it is (one of) the reasons they don’t import labor at all. They needed to import these people to halt their population decline.

Snarp's avatar

Many low wage jobs are not available to unemployed persons with work experience, education, and skills. It costs money to hire and train a new worker and it makes no sense to make that investment in hiring someone who you know is going to quit as soon as they possibly can get a better job, which they likely will.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: What is your argument? Overall are there more or less jobs available to skilled people with work experience? The number of jobs available only increases with skill-set and experience. For every one door your experience closes it opens two.

Cruiser's avatar

@Snarp Anybody who works 80 hours a week is golden in my book and without a doubt can afford their own health care if they choose to spend their hard earned cash on it! Now these hard working people are going to have to work even harder to pay for that health care they now will be forced to buy!

Snarp's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish My argument is a response to this comment: “Now that our economy is worse there are less high-paying jobs in America but there are still plenty of low wage ones.” Those low wage jobs are not necessarily available to the people who have lost high wage ones. There are a lot more arguments too, like jobs not necessarily being in the same place as the people, and I’m sure you’ll have an explanation of why that’s lazy to as there’s surely no reason that it’s hard to leave one’s home that one can’t sell, or leave one’s family and social network and can’t afford to pack up and move and don’t even know the jobs exist.

Snarp's avatar

@Cruiser Except that they can’t afford it, no matter how many times you say they can. Repeating it does not make it true. I know these people, I’ve been one of them, and they just can’t afford it. Sometimes I am truly surprise at the complete disconnect in this country and how many people really don’t understand how other people are living.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: Please answer the question. Does increased experience and skill set open more doors than it closes?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: I know they can afford it. When I was younger I spent only fraction of minimum wage on expenses. I don’t understand why I was able to earn six figures and choose to live on less than minimum wage while others have it as their only income and can’t make the choice.

Snarp's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Your question is irrelevant to your statement that these people should just take lower wage jobs. I explained why that isn’t always an option, and now you’re shifting the goalposts. But the answer is that it depends on the economy and the individual’s personal circumstances. In general, over time, it opens more doors, but when there are no jobs available that fit your skills and the ones that are available aren’t interested in hiring you because they expect you to quit soon, then it closes them. Right now experience and skills are closing the only doors open for a lot of people. Not all, but at least some of the unemployed are not taking lower wage jobs because people with less skills and experience are being hired instead of them.

As for what people can afford, your personal experience does not mean that other people have the same experience. Cost of living varies from place to place, expenses vary, I’m really not sure how you afford health insurance premiums on less than minimum wage, some people have families, the list goes on, but what’s the point since your only argument is argumentum ad nauseum, I’ve no interest in continuing that.

jaytkay's avatar

If everyone in your country receives lots of expensive benefits you can’t import people to do cheap labor

So a Japan is in trouble for not importing cheap labor?
And the US is falling apart for importing cheap labor?

Main Entry: ra·tio·nal·ize
to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for <rationalize the problem>
to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Snarp: Your argument about how experience and skill are bad because it keeps people from getting jobs now is backwards of reality but I know you don’t want to talk about it. Additionally I feel it is so obvious experience and skill are helpful that I am hardly compelled to defend my position.

@Snarp: “Cost of living varies from place to place” <== then move. If you don’t have enough equity in your house to sell you had no business buying that house!

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: The US also has the benefit problem! The Japanese have made the smart decision on this and we made the dumb one. We shouldn’t be letting them in either—just like the Japanese.

jaytkay's avatar

Lol you are all over the place. You write universal health care ruined Japan because they can’t import cheap labor which they need and they made the right decision not importing cheap labor.

See ya, this is pointless.

stratman37's avatar

@jaytkay NOW you’re gettin’ it!

galileogirl's avatar

@Cruiser Are we to surmise you are equally opposed to the laws requiring auto insurance?

miranova23's avatar

@galileogirl ever hear “Driving is a privilege, not a right?” The auto insurance comparison is irrelevant.

Seek's avatar

So, is living a privilege or a right?

Dr_Dredd's avatar

@Cruiser I worked 90–100 hours per week as a medical resident and made crap. There was no way I could have afforded health insurance without it coming through my employer. Obviously, for me it was a time-limited thing. Others aren’t so lucky.

galileogirl's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I guess @miranova23 means the govt can take away your driving privilege while the ins cos can take away your right to live

Seek's avatar

Well… I suppose I already don’t have that right. So I guess I’m not losing anything by throwing into the basket.

Seek's avatar

@Dr_Dredd – well, you were obviously living far above your means. You should have moved into a rat-infested hostel and eaten saltine crackers and spam. It’s all about priorities.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: I have been 100% totally consistent but you are being dense and I wonder if it is on purpose. You said I claimed “they made the right decision not importing cheap labor” but this isn’t at all what I said. I said Japan CAN’T import cheap labor because, due to their social programs, there is no such a thing as cheap labor for them. They made the right decision not to import these people despite their social programs.

miranova23's avatar

You choose to partake in driving, understanding that by participating in this you have to follow the rules set.
You can’t choose not to live—why should we be forced to have insurance just to live?

I’m a college student who soon will be in serious trouble cuz I won’t be able afford insurance, nor the fine. Even if I could afford it, I refuse to pay on principle. What are they gonna do to me? I don’t know but this is first and foremost a matter of freedom. You simply can’t force me into this.

miranova23's avatar

@galileogirl don’t put words in my mouth.

Seek's avatar

I understand where you’re coming from, @miranova23

Of course this bill isn’t perfect. Far from it. The idea is to cover as many people as possible, and to curb the spiking costs.

Refusing to pay simply hurts the whole system. Sure, you’re not going to care because you get to keep your money or whatever, but I like to think most of us look beyond the tips of our own noses.

I’m a healthy person, who believes in traditional medicine and herbal remedies. I will always try to cure myself naturally before seeing a doctor. I still need health insurance, because one morning I’m going to get a serious bug, or break my wrist, or come down with carpal tunnel syndrome. And even if I don’t, I’ll never have to worry about what happens if I do. Every month I pay in and don’t see a doctor, it contributes to the pool of everyone that needs it – so my neighbor, or a stranger I’ve never met, doesn’t have to lose their house over their kid getting cancer.

galileogirl's avatar

Unpaid fines will be collected by the IRS unless you don’t plan on paying taxes “on principle”

jaytkay's avatar

I’m a college student who soon will be in serious trouble cuz I won’t be able afford insurance, nor the fine.

Untrue. Read up on how the bill works.

miranova23's avatar

Excuse me for having my own priorities of putting my money towards my student loans & living before I pay for a stranger’s healthcare.

@jaytkay As I understand it, I am forced to pay for insurance, or I pay an increasing fine. Not my fault. I really don’t care because whatever the law is, I’m not paying. This is going to be unenforceable, especially with me and so many more people I know.

Seek's avatar

@miranova23

It’s paying for your healthcare, too.

If you don’t pay, and you get sick, or hurt, and go to the ER, and can’t afford the eleventy-billion dollar bill, then you’re forcing other people to pay for your healthcare. Then you get to be a college-educated hypocrite.

jaytkay's avatar

@miranova23 As I understand it…

You don’t understand it. Read the links I posted way up at the top.

Dr_Dredd's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Well, the hospital call rooms did have roaches. No rats, though…

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@miranova23: @Seek_Kolinahr says “It’s paying for your healthcare, too.” but this is a lie. It is only true if you want to see the doctors covered by the FORCED-health-care-insurance approved list. If you want to see the doctors other than on that list you have to pay for the FORCED-health-care-insurance and for your doctors or second insurance policy as well.

Seek's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

I’m willing to bet oodles and oodles of money that if she isn’t interested in paying for insurance, forced or not, she couldn’t care less which doctor mends her shattered bones, as long as she doesn’t have to pay for it.

Qingu's avatar

Would people be complaining this much if, instead of “mandates,” they simply had universal single-payer insurance funded by taxes? Because there’s little functional difference.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr: I’m not interested in paying for insurance and I care which doctor I see (when it counts). People who believe all doctors are interchangeable are mistaken. I can’t talk for miranova23 but I certainly wouldn’t bet money. Do you want a public-defender class doctor?

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, when you say “I’m not interested in paying for insurance,” this leads me to suspect that you are dangerously ignorant of the risks of being uninsured.

jaytkay's avatar

Would people be complaining this much if, instead of “mandates,” they simply had universal single-payer insurance funded by taxes? Because there’s little functional difference.

Yes, they would complain as much, or more.

And yes, it’s silly to mandate health care without, you know, simply giving everybody health care.

You pass health care with the Congress you have, not the Congress you might want…

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: What are you talking about? There is no danger to me from being uninsured!

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: GA… but if we didn’t do the government takeover of medicine it this way how could there be all the fines collected and hire 16,000 new IRS agents? How could all the insurance agencies be bribed by the Democrats? The Democrats had a plan and you shouldn’t doubt them.

galileogirl's avatar

I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it.

So sayeth @malevolentbutticklish

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, I think we need to have a talk.

There is no danger to you from being uninsured… until you get into a car accident or become dangerously sick. What’s your plan then, exactly? Do you have millions of dollars to pay for care? Or are you willing to die in the streets?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: Your answer is wrong on so many levels. If a person doesn’t have medical care in the USA and they are in a car wreck are they left to die on the streets? Why then did you say this?

Qingu's avatar

So what you are saying is, instead of dying in the streets, you would expect a “handout” (as they say) from taxpayers to fund your visit to the emergency room?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: It may be a handout for people who have not paid the taxes in but in my case is it a handout or is it a socialized medicine program I am already paying for many times over in my taxes?

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, are you saying that taxes should pay for everyone’s health care?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: You didn’t answer my question. Why would you knowingly lie to us about what happens to people in car wrecks being left to die in the streets?

Qingu's avatar

Lie? I was asking you what you expected to happen. And you answered exactly how I thought you would.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: No. I am saying they already do pay for emergency medical care like it or not (and I don’t like it).

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@ Qingu: “There is no danger to you from being uninsured… until you get into a car accident or become dangerously sick. What’s your plan then, exactly? Do you have millions of dollars to pay for care? Or are you willing to die in the streets?” <== Here you clearly link dieing in the streets with being uninsured. You never even give the emergency room without insurance as an option. You said nothing about “is this what I expected”, etc.

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, so let me get this straight.

You don’t want to buy insurance because you expect taxpayers to pay for your health care if you get sick/injured.

But… you don’t like how taxpayers pay for your health care.

The hilarious thing is that taxpayers don’t pay for your emergency care. They have to transport you to the hospital and save you, and taxpayers pay for the ambulences, doctors, and machinery who do that. Taxpayers pay for that, even if you can’t. But in most cases you would still get saddled with the bill, which would be astronomic. And you’d also have to pay for care for lingering injuries/issues with your illness. Which is to say, unless you’re a millionaire, you’d be saddled with debt for the rest of your life.

Are you okay with that? Or do you expect taxpayers to pay for that stuff too?

Cruiser's avatar

@Snarp You just made my whole point here…quoting you..“Except that they can’t afford it,” So the fix to that problem for that person is to now force them to buy health insurance. If they couldn’t afford it before how are they going to afford it now?? Makes no sense to me whatever!

@Dr_Dredd You had a choice in that matter of working 80–100 hours knowing full well the big bucks were right around the corner for you. Now we are to take that choice away and force others who can’t afford it either to have to now pay for this. The cutoff by the way will be for wage earners making less than $30,000/yr. Can you yourself imagine what this will do to the poor hard working family making $31,000/year now being forced to buy an annual premium to the tune of $5,000—$7,000 or more a year??

Qingu's avatar

I’m sorry you got confused about the direction of this conversation. I did not mean to imply that you would die in the streets; I was being rhetorical.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: “The hilarious thing is that taxpayers don’t pay for” people’s “emergency care. ” <== really? You think that having a bill for something is the same thing as having paid for it?

Snarp's avatar

@Cruiser There are subsidies.

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, let’s say you get hit by a car and require expensive life-saving surgery in the ER.

Taxpayers will pay for the doctors doing the surgery, and the machines, etc.

You will still get a bill, however, and you will have to pay thousands or millions of dollars for post-op care. If you had insurance, your insurance company would pay for that. Since you don’t have insurance, you would need to go into debt, or bankruptcy.

Clear?

jaytkay's avatar

Can you yourself imagine what this will do to the poor hard working family making $31,000/year now being forced to buy an annual premium to the tune of $5,000—$7,000 or more a year??

Is what AM radio and FOX are saying? Not how it will work. Not in the bill.

Snarp's avatar

Look, I get it, I get why the mandate rankles people, I don’t much like the idea of forcing people to buy from private insurers, that’s why I would rather have had the public option, and would much rather have single payer, but politics is messy and this was the best we could get, and it’s better than the status quo. We have private insurance companies, doing away with them overnight would put millions of people out of work. They also cannot do business in a world without preexisting conditions and caps on coverage unless there’s also a mandate. And they have powerful lobbyists who were able to get the public option killed. And lets not forget that the majority of this plan came from Republicans back when they opposed Clinton’s health care plan, they just decided they would fight any reform to ensure Obama’s failure instead of actually trying to govern.

Some of you may disagree on whether this is better than the status quo, but I really wish we could disagree without demonizing poor people.

Qingu's avatar

And actually, taxpayers don’t fund all of emergency care; there’s not enough money. So when you get the bill and can’t pay it (and have to go into bankruptcy), the hospital shifts that cost to other patients, or writes it off as bad corporate debt.

The point here, @malevolentbutticklish, is that you expect an entitlement that you are not paying for.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: No! I am still very much unclear on your statement that the people who owe “millions” of dollars that they don’t have pay for it. You need to correct this statement and admit that they typically don’t pay these “millions” after all.

Qingu's avatar

You seem to have reading comprehension trouble. I thought I was clear: you wouldn’t pay millions of dollars, since you aren’t a millionaire. You would go into debt or bankruptcy and your life would be ruined.

Meanwhile, the cost of your care (which the hospital has to provide by law) would either get funded by taxpayers or shifted to other hospital patients.

Are we clear now? Do you understand why it’s important to have health insurance?

Cruiser's avatar

@Snarp This health care reform package is a POS I know that, the Republicans know that and in their heart a lot of Dems knew that hence the delay in getting this thing passed and all the back room deals it took to get it passed. It is within the “fixes” that are coming that I really hope and do expect some common ground will be realized that will make this work. Until then we really won’t know and all this here is in reality much to do about nothing.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: Your argument has yet another falsehood. I have been putting “millions” in quotes because I doubt its validity. What are the odds of having a medical bill of “millions” of dollars?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: ... and if we want to start talking about thing with as low an odds as having a medical bill in the “millions” shouldn’t we also talk about the odds of being murdered by a black or Hispanic male as something to be worried about?

Qingu's avatar

A traumatic car accident requiring multiple surgeries and weeks of intensive care would probably cost millions of dollars.

If it would make you happy I am fine revising my statement to “tens of thousands of dollars” to be more inclusive. Do you have tens of thousands of dollars to pay for emergency care and post-op care?

Qingu's avatar

What on earth are you talking about.

You know what? Nevermind. Let’s stick to the issue. It sounds like you don’t want to buy insurance because you think the odds are low enough that you won’t ever need it.

But if you are in an accident, or get sick, and can’t pay for it—what then? You have yet to answer this question directly. You can’t afford the bill. Taxpayers can’t fully fund the bill. What happens? Are you okay with the risk of going into bankruptcy and shifting the costs of your care to other patients? Yes or no?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: Yes, of course I have tens of thousands of dollars for something as important as my medical care after a serious car accident. I think the better question is why you don’t.

jaytkay's avatar

Your argument has yet another falsehood. I have been putting “millions” in quotes because I doubt its validity. What are the odds of having a medical bill of “millions” of dollars?

@malevolentbutticklish That’s sidestepping again, focusing on an irrelevant detail.

Most bankruptcies are caused by medical bills (or they were in 2007). Most of those people had insurance.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish shouldn’t we also talk about the odds of being murdered by a black or Hispanic male as something to be worried about?

Sidestepping

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: “Irrelevant details”? Why is the amount irrelevant. These people who declared bankruptcy largely did so due to not saving as they should have in life. How can I feel sorry for someone who didn’t save? People murdered by black or Hispanic males is clearly more relevant than people with multi-million dollar medical bills because there are more of them. Why aren’t you getting on Qingu for talking about these multi-million dollar bills???

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I have tens of thousands of dollars for something as important as my medical care after a serious car accident. I think the better question is why you don’t.

Good for you. Most people don’t and will not. Never has been true, never will be.

Every developed country knows this and provides for its citizens.

Seek's avatar

Right. Because if you don’t have the disposable income to set aside a million dollars in a savings account just in case your kid’s born in the second trimester and requires three months in NICU, your kid deserves to die.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: In Japan most families have tens of thousands. Are the Japanese so much better than us that we could not as well?

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

Bad example. Japan is a failing country wrecked by its universal health care. At least that’s what you told us.

Seek's avatar

WTF? No. You made a claim. You back it up. Obvious troll is obvious.

jaytkay's avatar

@@malevolentbutticklish Source otherwise

Are you in third grade?

Or second? Which is it.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: Where did I say this? I didn’t.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr: @jaytkay made the claim saying “Most people don’t and will not. Never has been true, never will be.” about having 10’s of thousands in savings. Are you saying “WTF? No. You made a claim. You back it up. Obvious troll is obvious.” to @jaytkay

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: I don’t see why I have to provide all my sources and you don’t. You made the original claim.

Seek's avatar

I told you to state your source regarding “most” homes in Japan having the equivalent of tens of thousands of US Dollars in savings for medical expenses.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I don’t see why I have to provide all my sources and you don’t.

Sidestepping again

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr: And I told you I am waiting for @jaytkay to state his/her source instead of “Sidestepping again”

Seek's avatar

Obvious troll is obvious. I’m out.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr: Most of the trolling on Fluther is someone just coming up and randomly demanding sources when they are unwilling to themselves and then calling someone a troll for not complying. Either that or someone will disagree with you so you say “racist” or “bigot.”

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, how much money do you have saved up to afford medical care if you need it, exactly?

Because if you ever need medical care over that amount, I’d like to hear what you expect to happen. Who should pay for it? Are you willing to go into bankruptcy?

Seek's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

You’re boring me. You’re not even making good arguments. You’re simply stating whatever random bullshit pops into your head. I’m over it.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: In my case I suspect the hospital would gladly settle with me since they would receive far less money if they decided to press for bankruptcy.

squirbel's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I’m quoting you:

@malevolentbutticklish to @Qingu: ... and if we want to start talking about thing with as low an odds as having a medical bill in the “millions” shouldn’t we also talk about the odds of being murdered by a black or Hispanic male as something to be worried about?

and again:

@malevolentbutticklish to @jaytkay: “Irrelevant details”? Why is the amount irrelevant. These people who declared bankruptcy largely did so due to not saving as they should have in life. How can I feel sorry for someone who didn’t save? People murdered by black or Hispanic males is clearly more relevant than people with multi-million dollar medical bills because there are more of them. Why aren’t you getting on Qingu for talking about these multi-million dollar bills???

To this, I reply:

You racist bastard. I am Hispanic, and I have Black blood running through my veins. I was so offended by this comment, and the rest of the crap you’ve been spewing this entire thread. You read, fail to comprehend, and keep posting. You know what? I’m going to stoop to your level and say that I’m actually scared some crazy white serial killer is going to pick me off randomly. All serial killers are white, did you notice [except for the rare few].

To everyone else, I do not honestly believe this. I’m making a point about how hurtful and incorrect bigotry is.

Qingu's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish, so you expect a handout from the hospital? Right.

And how do you think the hospital will make up the money you owe them? (Answer: charging other patients, or writing off bad debt).

Sorry, but I don’t like systems that reward people who expect handouts to cover risky behavior, like you apparently do. If you want to take that risk and not get insurance, you ought to pay the fee to cover your risk.

Qingu's avatar

@squirbel, I didn’t say that. (!!!)

squirbel's avatar

I know – I was quoting @malevolentbutticklish addressing you.

I’ll remove his @‘s.

jaytkay's avatar

@squirbel

Don’t take it personally, it’s not worth it. The troll has explained to me that not hating people of color makes me a racist. True story.

squirbel's avatar

Wha…? :(

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@squirbel: “All serial killers are white” <== what about Melvo?

Qingu's avatar

It’s not trolling if he’s actually ignorant.

squirbel's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish You named one, congratulations. You won’t even reach 5.

I now dub thee – “Mental Serial Killer”, because you kill our brain cells trying to make sense of the things you type.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Qingu: “Sorry, but I don’t like systems that reward people who expect handouts to cover risky behavior” <== then you should HATE the new health care bill. Millions (true use of the word) of people get handouts to cover their risky behavior under it.

jaytkay's avatar

@Qingu It’s not trolling if he’s actually ignorant.

What’s the approach called in psychology where you assume you can’t know others’ motives, you just have to deal with their actual words and actions? Following that I guess I should assume we are dealing with ignorance here.

squirbel's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Muslims are neither hispanic, black, or American. You failed, try again.

You know what? This is a perfect example of how to combat your style of argumentation.

Instead of apologizing, you chose to take a statement I excepted [“except for the rare few”], and turn it into a debate.

Instead of acknowledging my comment about your posting habits, you chose to take the smallest of my comments and make that your focus.

Everyone can attest that that is what you have been doing this entire thread. The reason you have been labeled a troll is that your comments never make any impact, and you are argumentative, and fail to actually add to the community. We love those who have differing opinions – but yours aren’t that. Sorry, and I do not wish to continue this feud.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@squirbel: No. I don’t care to try again. Your statement was “All serial killers are white”. It was disproved and you agreed. Then you said I couldn’t reach five. Again you were disproved.

squirbel's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I already included the exception, so you did not prove anything. Learn your language, and learn to comprehend it.

” All serial killers are white, did you notice [except for the rare few].”

I’m done.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@squirbel: Of course this sort of thing is why Fluther needs to mark edited comments.

jaytkay's avatar

@squirbel Just so you know, troll doesn’t know how to refresh the comments, or pretends not to. So that last thing means it misread your comment, but it’s blaming you or Fluther.

The guys who kill their families, barricade their house, shoot at the police and then kill themselves – what are they called? Are they serial killers?

Anyway, they’re overwhelmingly white, too.

noyesa's avatar

Folks… this thread is about healthcare.

jaytkay's avatar

@noyesa

I think about 3 comments gave legit answers to “Does this health plan mean that folks who don’t want insurance still have to buy it?”.

I wouldn’t even call knitting or water polo off-topic in here.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

“Does this health plan mean that folks who don’t want insurance still have to buy it?” <== YES. You will be forced to buy something you don’t want (and possibly can’t even afford) or pay a fine and/or go to jail.

squirbel's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Wow. Just wow. Didn’t even read it.

Judi's avatar

A $75 fine

skfinkel's avatar

@Cruiser : When is enough enough? I would say when each child can be sure of being properly fed, clothed, housed, cared for, well educated, and insured. And you know what? We can afford this and have plenty left over.

Fernspider's avatar

LOL – woot! What a morning of reading. Epic!

Some really great points, some really, um, out there points and ramblings. All and all, very interesting and entertaining. Thanks!

ETpro's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Nobody will be forced to buy something thay cannot afford. All without adequate income will be subsidized. First off, this mandate to insure doesn’t start till 2014. When it does, subsidies are there for anyone making up to 4 times the federal poverty level. In today’s terms, that means that a single person fining singly would get subsidy help untill they make over $44,000 a year. For a family of four, the figure is $88,000 a year. Subsidy size grows on a sliding scale with lower income till it is 100% subsidized for those earning 133% of the federal poverty level.

We already are required to pay for the construction of the Interstate Highway System, our Military, NASA, the FAA and Air Traffic Control System and a whole host of other things whether we use any of them or not. This is just one more thing in that genre.

We the voters elected President Obama to pass health reform and insure the vast majority of Americans. He won on that platform with a margin of 10,000,000 votes. The bill passed both houses of Congress by majority votes even thought Republicans forced it to win a super-majority in the Senate, making the bill significantly worse in the process. It is now the law of the land. Let’s move on.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@ETpro: “Nobody will be forced to buy something thay cannot afford.” <== False! Income doesn’t determine what you can afford. It is income minus expenses and as far as you mentioned expenses aren’t factored in.

ETpro's avatar

Well,. I guess if you decide you just must have a Rolls Royce and wear top designer one-of-a-kinds everywhere then there isn’t anything else you can afford unless you are incredibly rich. But the cost structure is set up to make insurance—which all people really should have—affordable to all who manage their expenses in a responsible fashion. If we factored in expenses, we would exempt everyone from any tax if only they spent every cent they earned on themselves. Is that what you support?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@ETpro: The new bill will have people jailed who earned 44K/yr but can’t afford a health-insurance premium or fines due to previous medical bills.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish
Where is that in the bill’s language?

ETpro's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I do not think that is the case, but the Internet is awash with right-wing blog sites making exactly that claim. I will check.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish You find that language in the bill yet? You seem like an expert on it.

Cruiser's avatar

@skfinkel What you described is a Communist ideal and will never fly here in the US. I don’t see where the US is miserabley failing it’s people. I just hung up the phone with my customer in China who is shaking his head in disbelief over the wining of the underclass in our country. He said they would be upper middle class people in comparison to China’s poor and that they should be grateful for everything they have. I don’t want to begrudge anyone basic necessities and I volunteer many hours a year helping out at our local shelter so I know first hand what it takes to provide the homeless what you describe.

I won’t argue this health care issue any further as you will soon see the fallout from this glorious momentous occasion and it won’t just be higher taxes for the rich…we all will pay dearly in higher costs of everything we buy and reduced medical services and benefits. Just watch what is going to happen to Medicare alone…it won’t be pretty and the seniors are going to be pissed!! This is one of the reasons why it all was done behind closed doors!

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: The +-16,500 new IRS agents this bill requires aren’t there to help people out. They are there to fine and jail them. This includes people who can afford the premiums and also those who can not.

jaytkay's avatar

@malevolentbutticklis
Third request. Explain your allegation. Where is that in the bill?

The new bill will have people jailed who earned 44K/yr but can’t afford a health-insurance premium or fines due to previous medical bills.

ETpro's avatar

@jaytkay It’s not in the bill. It’s from a letter an IRS official sent to Congressmen who sought information on how tax penalties (of all kinds) get enforced. It’s in the US tax code. See below.

@malevolentbutticklish I knew that by today, FactCheck.org would have run this down owing to its prevalence on the blogosphere. As is so often the case, there is a grain of truth in it surrounded by a ton of hysteria and hyperbole. In simple terms, no, The hypothetical you offer of a moderately affluent family of four wiped out by financial loss and thus unable to buy health insurance but not qualified for a subsidy due to their income would not go to jail. They would be assessed an extra tax of 2.5% of their taxable income up to a ceiling of what an average policy for them would have cost anyway. That assessment would be collected by civil means, and only if they willfully refused to pay even though capable of doing so would they face jail time.

We aren’t going back to debtors prison in America today. Prison time for non-payment of taxes is rare and stems only for deliberate refusal to pay when one has the means to do so.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@ETpro: “only if they willfully refused to pay even though capable of doing so” <== If someone has two bills and only enough money to pay one of them didn’t they “willfully refuse to pay” whichever of the two they didn’t pay?

Also, thank you for your answer.

jaytkay's avatar

Thanks, @ETpro, for the factual response. Refreshing.

There are also tax credits to offset premiums for required insurance, for individuals and small businesses.

@malevolentbutticklish since you couldn’t back up your other claim, perhaps you can lay out a scenario proving your new hypothetical.
—To be valid you need to specify family size and income
—Because they are un-insured, include how much their premiums would be under the insurance exchange where they would be eligible.
—They would receive tax credits, so include those numbers.
—How much is the fine, and how long do they have to pay it?

Basically, how much is insurance, after tax credits? How big is the premium and fine they have to dodge to go to jail?

liminal's avatar

http://www.politifact.com/ also seems to do accurate fact checking.

Judi's avatar

If you make $44,000 you can afford a $75 fine

ETpro's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish You really want to make up some incredibly specific hypothetical where someone gets carted off to jail. But that is good. It’s wise to think through all the ramifications of new law. Again, no. In any case where taxpayers have legitimate bills—not profligate spending on luxuries instead of paying taxes—but legitimate bills they must pay, the IRS works with them to reduce the debt over time. Only deliberate tax cheats and scofflaws get sent to jail. Nothing has changed in that respect. The bill doesn’t even specify enforcement of the fine for not buying, it leaves it to the current IRS code. So owing gets enforced the same way now as it did a week ago.

ItsAHabit's avatar

The law clearly mandates purchase of insurance and provides explicit penalties for failure to do so. This is one way the government will raise money to help pay for the program. The other will be direct taxes, combined with reductions in care provided.

ETpro's avatar

@ItsAHabit Show me where the bill states specific penalties for those who refuse to pruchase insurance. http://mediamatters.org/research/201002040013

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